Roman Catholics

[Peter J]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

[Schultz]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

I have never seen a church in the United States which celebrated the Latin Rite referred to as, "St. X Latin Catholic Church".  If there is a qualifier, it's undoubtedly "Roman."

[jmbejdl]

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

[Peter J]

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.

[Iconodule]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

[podkarpatska]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

[ialmisry]

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.

sure you reading that right?

[ialmisry]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.

[podkarpatska]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.

Off point here by me, but it seems these days that more and more of them are simply closing their eyes and ears and ignore those matters. Rome won't make such matters 'go away' by the EC's doing so and to them, I remind them that the doors to the Orthodox Faith are open and welcome to them!

[Peter J]

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.

sure you reading that right?

95% sure.

[ialmisry]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.

Off point here by me, but it seems these days that more and more of them are simply closing their eyes and ears and ignore those matters. Rome won't make such matters 'go away' by the EC's doing so and to them, I remind them that the doors to the Orthodox Faith are open and welcome to them!

Indeed!  Welcome home! (and that goes to Latins going WRO as well!).

[ialmisry]

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.

sure you reading that right?

95% sure.

It's in the 5%

[Peter J]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

[podkarpatska]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I would agree with you that we easterners - both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic- tend to add the word 'Roman' more than is the common usage. We both do this to point out that they do not have exclusivity to the term 'catholic' regardless of how our popular media and the average 'Joe' may sloppily think is the case and to bolster our claim that we are Catholic (albeit we Orthodox do have a different view from that of our Roman brothers ).

[Schultz]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

Again, out on the street, you will find actual congregations being labeled by those who make them up as CATHOLIC or ROMAN CATHOLIC.  Only pedants, academicians, and those who have some sort of axe to grind would question this.  

[jmbejdl]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive - what's the reason for that? I have been 'corrected' by those using the Eastern Rite, before but even that was good natured. Here I would say that it's most commonly used (by, it must be admitted, a population overwhelmingly dominated by the Latin Rite) to mean those in communion with the Pope regardless of rite (often I'd guess they're unaware other rights even exist, though).

James

[Peter J]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

[Schultz]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive - what's the reason for that? I have been 'corrected' by those using the Eastern Rite, before but even that was good natured. Here I would say that it's most commonly used (by, it must be admitted, a population overwhelmingly dominated by the Latin Rite) to mean those in communion with the Pope regardless of rite (often I'd guess they're unaware other rights even exist, though).

James

From what I remember, "Roman" Catholic was originally used in a perjorative manner by Anglicans, who saw themselves as "English" or "Anglican" Catholics (cf. Branch theory), kind of like calling someone a "papal" Catholic or jsut a plain "papist".  It backfired and now only a few triumphalist academics will find it offensive.

Maybe it's because I've lived in historically Roman Catholic areas that I've not come across overzealous fundygelicals stressing the word "Roman" in a perjorative manner.  Even if they did, I would, when I was a Roman Catholic, have accepted their attempt to make me feel bad as a badge of honor because they're the ones who were going to hell, not me

[jmbejdl]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

No, I haven't. Half my family are Roman Catholics and identify as such. The other half are Lutheran. I've never heard the former say it was offensive or the latter use it in a manner suggesting they meant to cause offence. And even if one did use it with that intent why on earth would the addition of Roman ever be felt as pejorative by, of all people, a Latin rite Catholic in communion with Rome?

James

[Peter J]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

No, I haven't. Half my family are Roman Catholics and identify as such. The other half are Lutheran. I've never heard the former say it was offensive or the latter use it in a manner suggesting they meant to cause offence. And even if one did use it with that intent why on earth would the addition of Roman ever be felt as pejorative by, of all people, a Latin rite Catholic in communion with Rome?

James

Maybe I spend a little too much time on the Catholic Answers Forum. 

And you're right, most don't really regard as offensive (anymore), but would see it as Anglican "We're Catholic too!" rhetoric.

[mike]

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

There are virtually no Protestants here...

[Peter J]

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

There are virtually no Protestants here...

If your point is that we got off on a tangent, I don't disagree in the slightest.

[Shiny]

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

Now why would anyone ever want to say mean things about the RCC, the Mr. Bubble, the Dove Dishwashing Liquid, the Charmin Two-Ply Ultra-Soft of world religious institutions?

[jah777]

still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive.

There are Orthodox who consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be offensive when applied to those in communion with the Pope because in actuality they are neither Roman (as in Rum and the Roman Empire centered in Constantinople, which was primarily Greek-speaking), nor Catholic (as in Universal, since they do not hold to the faith of the Universal Church as it has been confessed from Apostolic times).  The term “Latins” is more accurate since much of their belief can be attributed to their estrangement from the Greek roots of Roman Orthodoxy, estrangement from the Greek Fathers, and have followed almost exclusively the Latin St. Augustine who cared little for Greek and was himself not fully acquainted with the mind of the Universal (Catholic) Church.  “Augustinian” is perhaps more accurate than “Latin” since St. Augustine is followed to the abandonment of Latin Fathers such as St. Jerome.  “Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.   

[Shanghaiski]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

[Peter J]

still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive.

There are Orthodox who consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be offensive when applied to those in communion with the Pope because in actuality they are neither Roman (as in Rum and the Roman Empire centered in Constantinople, which was primarily Greek-speaking),

True, but I've heard a crazy theory that the Roman Empire took its name from the city of Rome. 

 

nor Catholic (as in Universal, since they do not hold to the faith of the Universal Church as it has been confessed from Apostolic times).  The term “Latins” is more accurate since
...

That's fine if you're talking about the patriarchate of which the Pope of Rome is the head, but not if you're talking about everyone in full communion with the Pope.

[Peter J]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

[mike]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

Where do you live? For how long have you known about Roman Catholicism?

[Peter J]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

Where do you live? For how long have you known about Roman Catholicism?

I guess that depends on what you mean by Roman Catholicism. Why do you ask?

[mike]

Everywhere where people use the term "Roman Catholics" they mean "Papists on the Latin Rite = the original ones". Eastern Catholic Churches are on the other hand some strange sect that somehow are under the Vatican but for safety reasons news about them are put into the"ecumenism" sections of the RC massmedia.

[Peter J]

Everywhere ...

Hmm. So what was the point of asking where I live? :scratch chin: (New England, if you still want to know. )

[Clemente]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

Which is why "papist" really is the best appellation. "Latin" or "Eastern" are just varietals.

[Peter J]

Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

Which is why "papist" really is the best appellation.

Can't say I'm crazy about that idea, personally. 

[Peter J]

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

P.S. It seems that it would also be news to Wikipedia that that's the common parlance (outside of my religious confession): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic doesn't even mention that particular definition of "Roman Catholic". (I could also furnish some supporting examples from another web-based forum, but I can just imagine the kind of reaction I would get for doing that, so I'll just stick with Wikipedia as my example.)

[biro]

“Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

 

Nice.

[orthonorm]

I've never heard a Catholic in these parts call themselves Roman Catholic. They just say Catholic.

In German Speaking lands, the official name is usually Roman Catholic but most people just use Catholic (translated obviously). Just the same way they don't say Evangelical Lutheran, but rather Evangelical.

Outside anti-Catholic protestant circles or Orthodoxy, I've rarely heard the attribution Roman added, except for maybe the those of Italian extraction.

Catholic seems to work well.

This certainly breaks down where Catholics have had marketing issues as perhaps some of the posters from such lands attest to. 

[orthonorm]

“Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

 

Nice.

If people are going to try to troll, at least entertain us or educate us.

[JoeS2]

This is hows I sees it:

Catholics under Rome are Roman Catholics

Catholics under Orthodoxy (East) are Orthodox Christians (Catholics)

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church.  All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

[Papist]

When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic".
However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church".
My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.

[Charles Martel]

Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

No, never.

I am a cradle Roman Catholic and have always referred to myself as such. "Roman Catholic" was on my birth certificate, on my dog tags when I served in the Marines, every time I've filled out forms for my faith, especially in hospitals. I take pride in the fact that I'm a Roman Catholic, maybe due in part to my Italian lineage, but I was  Roman Catholic born and bred and when I die, I'll be Roman Catholic dead.

Ironically, these days I consider myself more of an Orthodox (Traditional) Roman Catholic.

Or as you Eastern Catholics would say "Latin" rite.

[Wyatt]

When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic".
However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church".
My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.

Amen!

[Basil 320]

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

[Tallitot]

like most Americans i usually just say "Catholic". I only use the term "Latin Catholic" or "Latin-Rite Catholic" online to differentiate from Catholics of the Eastern Rite. The average person on the street has no idea that there is a such thing as 'Eastern Rite Catholics".

[Peter J]

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.

[celticfan1888]

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Eastern Orthodox? East of what?

If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.

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