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Offline Peter J

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Roman Catholics
« on: June 25, 2012, 10:17:36 AM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 10:24:15 AM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

I have never seen a church in the United States which celebrated the Latin Rite referred to as, "St. X Latin Catholic Church".  If there is a qualifier, it's undoubtedly "Roman."

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 10:41:04 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 11:02:24 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 11:05:03 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 11:23:22 AM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 11:24:12 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.
sure you reading that right?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2012, 11:26:12 AM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'
The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2012, 11:30:37 AM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'
The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.

Off point here by me, but it seems these days that more and more of them are simply closing their eyes and ears and ignore those matters. Rome won't make such matters 'go away' by the EC's doing so and to them, I remind them that the doors to the Orthodox Faith are open and welcome to them!

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 11:35:56 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.
sure you reading that right?

95% sure.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 11:36:08 AM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'
The "Eastern Catholics"/"Orthodox in Union with Rome" have to make their peace with Pastor Aeternus and the IC, amongst other things the Latin Vatican insists on.

Off point here by me, but it seems these days that more and more of them are simply closing their eyes and ears and ignore those matters. Rome won't make such matters 'go away' by the EC's doing so and to them, I remind them that the doors to the Orthodox Faith are open and welcome to them!
Indeed!  Welcome home! (and that goes to Latins going WRO as well!).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2012, 11:36:32 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.
sure you reading that right?

95% sure.
It's in the 5%
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 11:39:00 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 11:43:28 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I would agree with you that we easterners - both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic- tend to add the word 'Roman' more than is the common usage. We both do this to point out that they do not have exclusivity to the term 'catholic' regardless of how our popular media and the average 'Joe' may sloppily think is the case and to bolster our claim that we are Catholic (albeit we Orthodox do have a different view from that of our Roman brothers ).

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 11:43:42 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

Again, out on the street, you will find actual congregations being labeled by those who make them up as CATHOLIC or ROMAN CATHOLIC.  Only pedants, academicians, and those who have some sort of axe to grind would question this.  

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 11:46:04 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive - what's the reason for that? I have been 'corrected' by those using the Eastern Rite, before but even that was good natured. Here I would say that it's most commonly used (by, it must be admitted, a population overwhelmingly dominated by the Latin Rite) to mean those in communion with the Pope regardless of rite (often I'd guess they're unaware other rights even exist, though).

James
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 11:55:06 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 11:58:05 AM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive - what's the reason for that? I have been 'corrected' by those using the Eastern Rite, before but even that was good natured. Here I would say that it's most commonly used (by, it must be admitted, a population overwhelmingly dominated by the Latin Rite) to mean those in communion with the Pope regardless of rite (often I'd guess they're unaware other rights even exist, though).

James

From what I remember, "Roman" Catholic was originally used in a perjorative manner by Anglicans, who saw themselves as "English" or "Anglican" Catholics (cf. Branch theory), kind of like calling someone a "papal" Catholic or jsut a plain "papist".  It backfired and now only a few triumphalist academics will find it offensive.

Maybe it's because I've lived in historically Roman Catholic areas that I've not come across overzealous fundygelicals stressing the word "Roman" in a perjorative manner.  Even if they did, I would, when I was a Roman Catholic, have accepted their attempt to make me feel bad as a badge of honor because they're the ones who were going to hell, not me ;)
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 12:03:34 PM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

No, I haven't. Half my family are Roman Catholics and identify as such. The other half are Lutheran. I've never heard the former say it was offensive or the latter use it in a manner suggesting they meant to cause offence. And even if one did use it with that intent why on earth would the addition of Roman ever be felt as pejorative by, of all people, a Latin rite Catholic in communion with Rome?

James
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 12:21:41 PM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)

I've never come across anyone who found it offensive -

You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

No, I haven't. Half my family are Roman Catholics and identify as such. The other half are Lutheran. I've never heard the former say it was offensive or the latter use it in a manner suggesting they meant to cause offence. And even if one did use it with that intent why on earth would the addition of Roman ever be felt as pejorative by, of all people, a Latin rite Catholic in communion with Rome?

James

Maybe I spend a little too much time on the Catholic Answers Forum.  ;)

And you're right, most don't really regard as offensive (anymore), but would see it as Anglican "We're Catholic too!" rhetoric.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 01:25:27 PM »
You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

There are virtually no Protestants here...

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 01:47:40 PM »
You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?

There are virtually no Protestants here...

If your point is that we got off on a tangent, I don't disagree in the slightest.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 02:16:29 PM »
You've never anything like "'Roman Catholic' is a slur made up by anti-Catholic Protestants"?
Now why would anyone ever want to say mean things about the RCC, the Mr. Bubble, the Dove Dishwashing Liquid, the Charmin Two-Ply Ultra-Soft of world religious institutions?
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Offline jah777

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 04:02:22 PM »
still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive.

There are Orthodox who consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be offensive when applied to those in communion with the Pope because in actuality they are neither Roman (as in Rum and the Roman Empire centered in Constantinople, which was primarily Greek-speaking), nor Catholic (as in Universal, since they do not hold to the faith of the Universal Church as it has been confessed from Apostolic times).  The term “Latins” is more accurate since much of their belief can be attributed to their estrangement from the Greek roots of Roman Orthodoxy, estrangement from the Greek Fathers, and have followed almost exclusively the Latin St. Augustine who cared little for Greek and was himself not fully acquainted with the mind of the Universal (Catholic) Church.  “Augustinian” is perhaps more accurate than “Latin” since St. Augustine is followed to the abandonment of Latin Fathers such as St. Jerome.  “Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.   

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 04:11:17 PM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 04:28:44 PM »
still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive.

There are Orthodox who consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be offensive when applied to those in communion with the Pope because in actuality they are neither Roman (as in Rum and the Roman Empire centered in Constantinople, which was primarily Greek-speaking),

True, but I've heard a crazy theory that the Roman Empire took its name from the city of Rome.  :o

 ;D

nor Catholic (as in Universal, since they do not hold to the faith of the Universal Church as it has been confessed from Apostolic times).  The term “Latins” is more accurate since
...

That's fine if you're talking about the patriarchate of which the Pope of Rome is the head, but not if you're talking about everyone in full communion with the Pope.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2012, 04:46:28 PM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 05:03:07 PM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

Where do you live? For how long have you known about Roman Catholicism?

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

Where do you live? For how long have you known about Roman Catholicism?

I guess that depends on what you mean by Roman Catholicism. Why do you ask?
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 05:15:15 PM »
Everywhere where people use the term "Roman Catholics" they mean "Papists on the Latin Rite = the original ones". Eastern Catholic Churches are on the other hand some strange sect that somehow are under the Vatican but for safety reasons news about them are put into the"ecumenism" sections of the RC massmedia.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 05:23:46 PM »
Everywhere ...

Hmm. So what was the point of asking where I live? :scratch chin: (New England, if you still want to know. :))
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Offline Clemente

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 05:34:19 PM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

Which is why "papist" really is the best appellation. "Latin" or "Eastern" are just varietals.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 05:38:51 PM »
Knowing that Eastern Catholics do not view themselves as Roman Catholics, of course the use of the term as generally understood in the US is that it is limited to Latin-rite Catholics.  Those here who refuse to acknowledge this are, in my mind, as wrong as the Eastern Catholics who call themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome.'

Which is why "papist" really is the best appellation.

Can't say I'm crazy about that idea, personally.  ;D
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 05:39:56 PM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

It's the common parlance, outside of your religious confession.

That's news to me. Is it possible that you heard people say "Roman Catholic" and just *assumed* that they meant it in the sense of Latin Catholic?

P.S. It seems that it would also be news to Wikipedia that that's the common parlance (outside of my religious confession): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic doesn't even mention that particular definition of "Roman Catholic". (I could also furnish some supporting examples from another web-based forum, but I can just imagine the kind of reaction I would get for doing that, so I'll just stick with Wikipedia as my example.)
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Offline biro

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 06:36:29 PM »
Quote from: jah777
“Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

 >:(

Nice.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 07:47:00 PM »
I've never heard a Catholic in these parts call themselves Roman Catholic. They just say Catholic.

In German Speaking lands, the official name is usually Roman Catholic but most people just use Catholic (translated obviously). Just the same way they don't say Evangelical Lutheran, but rather Evangelical.

Outside anti-Catholic protestant circles or Orthodoxy, I've rarely heard the attribution Roman added, except for maybe the those of Italian extraction.

Catholic seems to work well.

This certainly breaks down where Catholics have had marketing issues as perhaps some of the posters from such lands attest to. 
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 07:50:18 PM »
Quote from: jah777
“Papist” is probably a most accurate term because they are follower of the Papacy more than they are followers of Christ, the Apostles, or the Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

 >:(

Nice.

If people are going to try to troll, at least entertain us or educate us.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 07:50:30 PM »
This is hows I sees it:

Catholics under Rome are Roman Catholics

Catholics under Orthodoxy (East) are Orthodox Christians (Catholics)

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church.  All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 07:53:17 PM by JoeS2 »

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 10:26:35 PM »
When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic".
However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church".
My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 10:52:43 PM »
Why don't you ask the Roman Catholics themselves why they overwhelmingly self-identify as "Roman Catholics"?

The use of the term "Roman Catholics" among Catholics isn't really as uniform as you seem to assume it is. Sure, there are many who use it to mean Latin Catholics; but there are also many who use it mean everyone in full communion with Rome, and still others who regard "Roman Catholic" as offensive. (I have also, on a rare occasion, heard it used to mean Roman-Rite Catholic.)
No, never.

I am a cradle Roman Catholic and have always referred to myself as such. "Roman Catholic" was on my birth certificate, on my dog tags when I served in the Marines, every time I've filled out forms for my faith, especially in hospitals. I take pride in the fact that I'm a Roman Catholic, maybe due in part to my Italian lineage, but I was  Roman Catholic born and bred and when I die, I'll be Roman Catholic dead.

Ironically, these days I consider myself more of an Orthodox (Traditional) Roman Catholic.

Or as you Eastern Catholics would say "Latin" rite.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2012, 11:56:57 PM »
When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic".
However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church".
My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.
Amen!

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2012, 02:33:09 AM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2012, 05:36:16 AM »
like most Americans i usually just say "Catholic". I only use the term "Latin Catholic" or "Latin-Rite Catholic" online to differentiate from Catholics of the Eastern Rite. The average person on the street has no idea that there is a such thing as 'Eastern Rite Catholics".
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2012, 07:17:03 AM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2012, 07:36:55 AM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Eastern Orthodox? East of what?

If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.
Forgive my sins.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2012, 07:53:48 AM »
This is hows I sees it:

Catholics under Rome are Roman Catholics

Catholics under Orthodoxy (East) are Orthodox Christians (Catholics)

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church.  All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

Same here. In the old Austro-Hungarian realm, where east and west 'touched' each other, it was common for there to be villages, towns and cities with Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholic Churches. Those who followed the Greek rubrics and traditions were hence - Greek Catholic and those who were western Catholics were - Roman Catholic. Simple.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2012, 07:54:13 AM »
Our OCA Cathedral's Official CharterTitle is:

St. Stephen Orthodox Catholic Cathedral

Need I say more?


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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2012, 08:17:01 AM »
If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.

That sounds good to me. We'll call you guys "the Orthodox Church", and you call us "the Catholic Church".  :)
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2012, 08:25:58 AM »
This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

This is a fairly minor answer, but the ecclesiology of the Roman Catholic communion of which all in union with the Vatican are a part revolves around Rome. Your supposed catholicity is verified by your union with Rome, not Rome's union with Bkerke, Alqosh, Antioch, etc. So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place. If all (Latins, Byzantines, Chaldeans, Maronites, etc.) treat the Roman Pope as their head, then they are Romans in that sense even if they follow another liturgical custom that differs from that of the standard Latin mass.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2012, 08:45:29 AM »
This is hows I sees it:

Catholics under Rome are Roman Catholics

Catholics under Orthodoxy (East) are Orthodox Christians (Catholics)

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church.  All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

Same here. In the old Austro-Hungarian realm, where east and west 'touched' each other, it was common for there to be villages, towns and cities with Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholic Churches. Those who followed the Greek rubrics and traditions were hence - Greek Catholic and those who were western Catholics were - Roman Catholic. Simple.

This is true in Romania and yet it's also not entirely accurate. For instance in my wife's home town there is one church described as Romano-Catolica and one Greco-Catolica, which at first glance would appear to back up what you're saying until you realise that catolic is only ever used to describe those that I refer to as Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church of the Creed is Biserica Soborniceasca not Catolica.

If I were to accurately translate, therefore, the descriptions of those two churches into English it would be much more appropriate if I said Roman (perhaps Latin, to avoid the odd doubling) Roman Catholic and Greek Roman Catholic. If you were to look up the word catolic in a Romanian dictionary such as the DEX you'd find the definition to be clearly and only pertaining to those in communion with Rome.

James
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:47:01 AM by jmbejdl »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 09:08:16 AM »
Our OCA Cathedral's Official CharterTitle is:

St. Stephen Orthodox Catholic Cathedral

Need I say more?



Heck, many of the older OCA and ACROD churches go one better - "St. So and So Russian (or Carpatho-Russian) Orthodox Greek Catholic Church"......

Offline J Michael

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 09:26:14 AM »
When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic".
However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church".
My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.

Amen, amen.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2012, 10:05:58 AM »
Our OCA Cathedral's Official CharterTitle is:

St. Stephen Orthodox Catholic Cathedral

Need I say more?

Heck, many of the older OCA and ACROD churches go one better - "St. So and So Russian (or Carpatho-Russian) Orthodox Greek Catholic Church"......

Well that's just silly. Clearly it should have been "St. So and So  Carpatho-Russian American Orthodox Greek Catholic Church".
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 10:07:31 AM »
So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 11:59:23 AM »
So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

“You can please some none of the people  Orthodox all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people any of the Orthodox all of the time”.   ;D

Why even concern yourself with what Orthodox call us?  Who cares??  If you're grounded in your faith you and others with whom you share communion know what and who you are.

Maybe one day, when we are all re-united with each other, in Christ, all divisions between and amongst Catholics and Orthodox will fall away and the name "Catholic", "Orthodox", or whatever will become totally irrelevant.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 12:16:07 PM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Church the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church accepts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox concept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.

Yes, I consider the "Byzantine Rite," the "Byzantine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church," as it is a rite under the Pope of Rome.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 12:51:55 PM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Eastern Orthodox? East of what?

If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.

No doubt, the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church; the Ecumenical Synods of the first millennium refer to the Church as both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

But, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East; it was founded on Earth in Jerusalem, thus, our church altar's face East;  from Alexandria to Moscow, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East, though it is Catholic and is "in all the world."

Use of the preface "Eastern" is a reaction to the 17th century or so practice initiated by the revolutionary movements of the Orthodox who were under Ottoman suppression and began use of their ethnicity in connection with their Orthodox Churches, i.e. Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc., to promote their ethnicity, their individuality within the Ottoman Empire. The Church's use of Eastern was a manner of demonstrating the oneness of the Orthodox Churches.  Somewhere at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, there is an old sign that states in Greek "Anatolikien Orthodoxie Ecclesia,"  "Eastern [or Anatolian, Oriental] Orthodox Church."  But as Fr. John Meyendorff has written, ask any Orthodox Christians in these areas to which religion they adhere, the answer in their ethnic tong is "I am Orthodox."

Note too, the Orthodox Church is as much "Apostolic" as it is "Catholic."

I do not take issue with a parish referring to itself as "Orthodox Catholic," because it is both "Orthodox" and "Catholic," but our Church is the "Eastern Orthodox Christian Church."
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 01:00:35 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 01:20:18 PM »
The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Church the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace.  And much of the Orthodox Church accepts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox concept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.

Yes, I consider the "Byzantine Rite," the "Byzantine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church," as it is a rite under the Pope of Rome.

Because it is done differently (Latinized) in communion with Rome than it is done in Orthodoxy?
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 01:29:01 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 01:36:17 PM »
Why even concern yourself with what Orthodox call us?  Who cares?? 

Well, if you talk to them but disregard what they say back, that's not much of a conversation.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 01:51:46 PM »
Why even concern yourself with what Orthodox call us?  Who cares?? 

Well, if you talk to them but disregard what they say back, that's not much of a conversation.

You only need disregard what they call you.  And any other irrelevancies.

If the quality or depth of your conversation depends on whether or not you *care* what they call you, or if the conversation becomes solely *about* what they call you, then Schultz has got it pegged in his post above.

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2012, 03:18:02 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2012, 03:22:00 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.

That's why I said it's *nearing* that level.

There is no big deal.  Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence).  The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2012, 03:28:33 PM »
So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who these Orthodox are who would complain about you referring to yourselves as the "Roman Catholic Church" (that's what literally every Orthodox person who I personally knows calls you, to the extent that the RCC comes up in our conversations, which is almost never). That's stupid. They're probably pedants and I would ignore them, as J Michael has counseled you to.

For my part, I absolutely do not care what you or any other non-Orthodox would call me. "Monophysite", for instance, is just a handy way for me to know that I can immediately stop listening to you (really, I almost want to thank people who use that term; it's saved me a lot of time), and anything else ("schismatic", "heretic", "Nileist", etc. ;D) is just icing on the 'monophysites and Eutychians and bears, oh my!" crazy cake. There are legitimate and understandable differences that may be the cause of our friction. This arguing over what we officially or morally should be obliged to refer to the others' churches as is not one of those things that should be so important. The Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox in its faith, and that's all that I care about. You can call yourselves the most Truest of the True Christian Fullness of Truth Church of Rome and the Whole Universe Under the Bestest, Most Infallible King Pope of the World Ever, and I'd still say "hmm...yeah, but they're un-Orthodox, so anything that they claim is trumped by that fact." If you really believe in Roman Catholic claims, you should be able to say something similar about others, and hence not worry about such silly things.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 03:30:04 PM by dzheremi »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.


That's why I said it's *nearing* that level.

There is no big deal.  Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence).  The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're on a roll, today, Schultz!  Thanks for making my day!
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2012, 03:42:04 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.


That's why I said it's *nearing* that level.

There is no big deal.  Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence).  The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're on a roll, today, Schultz!  Thanks for making my day!

Interesting. I guess I never fully comprehended your opinion of me before.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2012, 03:42:37 PM »
So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who these Orthodox are who would complain about you referring to yourselves as the "Roman Catholic Church" (that's what literally every Orthodox person who I personally knows calls you, to the extent that the RCC comes up in our conversations, which is almost never). That's stupid. They're probably pedants and I would ignore them, as J Michael has counseled you to.

What I said was that some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church". And it's true, they would.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2012, 03:43:06 PM »
Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2012, 03:45:27 PM »
What I said was that some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church". And it's true, they would.

And what I said was I don't know who these Orthodox people are, but they strike me as silly nitpickers that aren't worth anyone's time.

I'm glad we can continue to rehash what we've already written, Peter J. Sometimes I post things and immediately forget what I've just written. So this is helpful.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2012, 03:48:07 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.


That's why I said it's *nearing* that level.

There is no big deal.  Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence).  The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're on a roll, today, Schultz!  Thanks for making my day!

Interesting. I guess I never fully comprehended your opinion of me before.

Nothin' to do with my general opinion of you. 
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2012, 04:03:42 PM »
Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

There's nothing not to like  ;D!
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2012, 07:55:07 PM »
Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

There's nothing not to like  ;D!

Even when he's putting me in my place, Shultz is the top five when it comes to reasonable posters here at oc.net. I respect him quite a bit.
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Offline William

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2012, 08:35:27 PM »
This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.

Oh come on, it ain't that bad yet.

Really, I don't get the big deal.

That's why I said it's *nearing* that level.

There is no big deal.  Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence).  The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

Harsh. At a meeting at church a priest asked what our religious backgrounds were. I said "Catholic" and was corrected by the priest. Everyone else who used to be Catholic said "Roman Catholic." And I can guarantee I'm far closer to your description than any of them or the priest.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2012, 09:05:58 PM »
Hi again. Yesterday morning, when I asked my "fairly minor question" I hoped that 2 or 3 people might respond to it. I guess I was a little off in that estimate.  :o

I wonder if the number of responses a question gets is proportional to how stupid it is.

This thread is nearing Nutrition and Diet proportions of stupidity.

And yes, I'm no longer going to read it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:09:48 PM by Peter J »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2012, 09:08:11 PM »
Hahaha. You're too hard on yourself, Peter J. :)

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2012, 09:34:18 PM »
Hahaha. You're too hard on yourself, Peter J. :)

Not really, but I figure revealing my real feelings would be like blood in the water.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2012, 12:42:18 AM »
No doubt, the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church; the Ecumenical Synods of the first millennium refer to the Church as both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

But, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East; it was founded on Earth in Jerusalem, thus, our church altar's face East;  from Alexandria to Moscow, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East, though it is Catholic and is "in all the world."

Use of the preface "Eastern" is a reaction to the 17th century or so practice initiated by the revolutionary movements of the Orthodox who were under Ottoman suppression and began use of their ethnicity in connection with their Orthodox Churches, i.e. Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc., to promote their ethnicity, their individuality within the Ottoman Empire. The Church's use of Eastern was a manner of demonstrating the oneness of the Orthodox Churches.  Somewhere at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, there is an old sign that states in Greek "Anatolikien Orthodoxie Ecclesia,"  "Eastern [or Anatolian, Oriental] Orthodox Church."  But as Fr. John Meyendorff has written, ask any Orthodox Christians in these areas to which religion they adhere, the answer in their ethnic tong is "I am Orthodox."

Note too, the Orthodox Church is as much "Apostolic" as it is "Catholic."

I do not take issue with a parish referring to itself as "Orthodox Catholic," because it is both "Orthodox" and "Catholic," but our Church is the "Eastern Orthodox Christian Church."


Reaction to a 17th Century practice?

Point proven, I'll stick to being called the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Not this new modern hooballoo, not to mention the Eastern moniker is so exclusive to us Westerners.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2012, 09:07:11 AM »


If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.
[/quote]

For those unfamiliar: East as in Middle East

I think your church has it's title " The Catholic church". 

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2012, 09:20:03 AM »
Many popes have reference their church as the Roman Church or the Roman Catholic church, only recently (past 200 or so years) this monical has been dropped from common usage.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 09:20:28 AM by JoeS2 »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2012, 09:37:34 AM »
Many popes have reference their church as the Roman Church or the Roman Catholic church, only recently (past 200 or so years) this monical has been dropped from common usage.

Well, a couple hundred years before that the term didn't exist at all.  8)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 09:39:56 AM by Peter J »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2012, 09:43:19 AM »
If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

implying that Roman Catholic = Latin Catholic.
sure you reading that right?

95% sure.

Well, maybe just 85% sure.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2012, 09:53:55 AM »
Many popes have reference their church as the Roman Church or the Roman Catholic church, only recently (past 200 or so years) this monical has been dropped from common usage.

The 2nd Vatican Council designates the "Catholic Church" as the official name of their church.
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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »
Many popes have reference their church as the Roman Church or the Roman Catholic church, only recently (past 200 or so years) this monical has been dropped from common usage.

The 2nd Vatican Council designates the "Catholic Church" as the official name of their church.

So, I guess we Catholics (of whatever rite or geographical location) are (still) Catholics.   ;)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 10:00:50 AM by J Michael »
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2012, 05:38:13 PM »
Many popes have reference their church as the Roman Church or the Roman Catholic church, only recently (past 200 or so years) this monical has been dropped from common usage.

The 2nd Vatican Council designates the "Catholic Church" as the official name of their church.
One more reason to call ourselves Roman Catholic.... 8)
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2012, 04:41:47 AM »


Quote
If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.

For those unfamiliar: East as in Middle East

I think your church has it's title " The Catholic church". 

But I most Orthodox aren't even Middle Eastern, including mi.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2012, 08:46:43 PM »
This is hows I sees it:

Catholics under Rome are Roman Catholics

Catholics under Orthodoxy (East) are Orthodox Christians (Catholics)

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church.  All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.


C'mon guys.  Get real.

I am a Byzantine Catholic in communion with the papal Church whose papal see is in Rome.  Years ago I was a Roman Catholic, a Catholic of the Roman Rite.

It's not that difficult...unless y'all need and excuse.

M.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2012, 08:57:28 PM »
Hi elijahmaria.

I am a Byzantine Catholic in communion with the papal Church whose papal see is in Rome.  Years ago I was a Roman Catholic, a Catholic of the Roman Rite.

But the thing about that is that Roman-Rite Catholic isn't synonymous with Latin Catholic either. The Latin Church isn't a rite (the Council of Trent notwithstanding).
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2012, 10:58:27 PM »


Converts nonwithstanding: Most Orthodox parishes are still pretty ethnic and reflect Eastern European, Eastern Mediterranian, Middle Eastern ethnicities.   However, converts from all walks of life have changed the complexion somewhat but the not to any great extent, in my experience of 10yrs in the Church.   Most changes are in the OCA parishes.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2012, 12:46:42 AM »
I don't like the term "Roman Catholic" because it was invented by Anglicans in an attempt to claim that their catholicity is on par with ours. The Anglicans say "we're Anglo Catholic and you're 'Roman Catholic'." Nope. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. You were Catholic. You broke away from the Catholic Church. Of course they are welcome to believe whatever they want, but this is the reason why many of us find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive. It is attempting to set their catholicity as equal to ours, which we will never accept. We believe we are the Catholic Church only...if we did not, then we would belong to a different church, but we do not...nor do we subscribe to branch theory.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2012, 06:09:28 AM »
I wonder how would you explain the usage of the term "Roman Catholics" in countries where there are no Anglicans. What international conspiracy would you find?

Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2012, 07:31:42 AM »
I don't like the term "Roman Catholic" because it was invented by Anglicans in an attempt to claim that their catholicity is on par with ours.

To be fair, though, it isn't unheard of for an opponent-given-name to later become standard. (For example, "Lutheran" and "Methodist" are both opponent-given-names.)

I wonder how would you explain the usage of the term "Roman Catholics" in countries where there are no Anglicans. What international conspiracy would you find?

Anglicans are responsible for the English term "Roman Catholics". Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2012, 08:20:20 AM »
I don't like the term "Roman Catholic" because it was invented by Anglicans in an attempt to claim that their catholicity is on par with ours.

To be fair, though, it isn't unheard of for an opponent-given-name to later become standard. (For example, "Lutheran" and "Methodist" are both opponent-given-names.)

I wonder how would you explain the usage of the term "Roman Catholics" in countries where there are no Anglicans. What international conspiracy would you find?

Anglicans are responsible for the English term "Roman Catholics". Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.

You also need to blame many popes for this term as well.  Many documents by the Vatican contain just such language.

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2012, 03:38:11 PM »
Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.

What other groups? Jews? Homosexuals? Freemasons? Illuminati?

Offline Ashman618

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2012, 11:58:32 PM »
Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.

What other groups? Jews? Homosexuals? Freemasons? Illuminati?

I think 2pac is to blame for the title
Of Roman Catholic.......makaveli? Caluminati? City of LA? All eyez on me?

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2012, 10:55:17 AM »
Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.

What other groups? Jews? Homosexuals? Freemasons? Illuminati?

Klingons.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2012, 11:49:44 AM »
I wonder how would you explain the usage of the term "Roman Catholics" in countries where there are no Anglicans. What international conspiracy would you find?

Anglicans are responsible for the English term "Roman Catholics". Other groups are responsible for the comparable term in other languages.

Of course, if we want to really be consistent, then we shouldn't say that the term "Christians" originated in first-century Antioch, but rather that it is the English equivalent of a term that originated in first-century Antioch.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 11:56:18 AM by Peter J »
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 01:01:52 PM »
Maybe we should just change it to "Church of The Way" then, as the name "Christian" is clearly an innovation  ;D

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Re: Roman Catholics
« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2012, 08:16:13 PM »
In my opinion, I think that the adoption of "Roman Catholic" developed to differentiate the followers of Rome from other Christians following the Reformation and other divisions.

It is unfortunate that Catholicism was systematized and formed into a "central bureaucracy" throughout the Middle Ages and into the Modern era; the ancient sees which had retained their own rites of Mass, such as Lyon, Milan, Toledo, Sarum, York, and others lost their predominance, due to canons in the Council of Trent.

As a result, the usages of these Churches have almost been lost in contemporary society and hinder the local revitalization of Western Christianity on the part of most Catholics who are insistent to always look to Rome for every answer.