"Homophobia" rant

[neon_knights]

Stepping on the soapbox for a bit here.

I'm sick and tired of being called a hater, a bigot, and a "homophobe" by gay rights activists for the sole reason that I don't personally agree with homosexual behavior. I started a debate with someone who I had as a Facebook friend, because he posted a picture that basically said "If you think homosexuality is a sin, then you are a bigot." I first started the debate by explaining how that statement right there in itself is bigotry, and that tolerance has to go both ways. I tried to explain how someone can believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, yet not be a homophobe. Here is, in brief, my position on homosexuality.

My personal belief is that homosexual behavior is sinful, but I fully believe that any gay American has the right to be in a committed homosexual relationship if he or she chooses. Just because I dont agree with it doesn't mean I am going to tell you you're going to hell for it. According to this guy and the people that were arguing on his side, this view is BS and contradictory. This "contradictory" thing seemed to be a theme among their arguments against me.

I tried to make a distinction between the state of being homosexual and homosexual behavior, and how one is innocent and one is not.

This person also had a severe misconception on what "sin" was, so I tried to explain to him exactly what it was, and why gay sex is a sin according to Christianity, and how we are ALL sinners who can look to Christ for the hope of salvation. I was called "bats**t insane" for believing in ancestral sin, and was blocked from his Facebook(better for me anyways, he was always on my news feed and his posts were always really annoying).

I actually said several times verbatim "I support the legalization of gay marriage". Yet I personally believe that homosexual behavior is a missing the mark, so I am automatically a homophobe. And a statement like "to each his own" can only go one way, since the "hatred" of another lifestyle is completely intolerable. Talk about contradictory!

Am I a homophobe? Am I hateful, or a bigot? I sincerely ask this to any gay members of this board.



Profanities removed from post to enforce compliance with the forum's anti-profanity rules  -PtA

[orthonorm]

I started a debate with someone who I had as a Facebook friend

Facebook was your first mistake.
Calling them a friend was your second.
Considering it a debate your third.
Caring about what I think: awesome.

[Iconodule]

If thinking homosexual activity is sinful puts you under certain folks' definition of "homophobe", then there's really nothing you can do about it. You can make all the fine distinctions you want but they will continue to see you as a representative of a generally oppressive social order. The only way you might change someone's mind is by your actions- facebook discussions won't cut it.

I for one agree with you that, while homeosexual behavior is sinful, the way this sin is singled out and magnified is wrong and should not be grounds for treating anyone as a second-class citizen. Unfortunately it seems that a large portion of Christendom has had a different idea and that poisons any discourse about the question.

[neon_knights]

I started a debate with someone who I had as a Facebook friend

Facebook was your first mistake.
Calling them a friend was your second.
Considering it a debate your third.
Caring about what I think: awesome.

He wasnt actually a friend, he was a friend of a friend that I added on facebook.

[orthonorm]

I started a debate with someone who I had as a Facebook friend

Facebook was your first mistake.
Calling them a friend was your second.
Considering it a debate your third.
Caring about what I think: awesome.

He wasnt actually a friend, he was a friend of a friend that I added on facebook.

You kidz and all your friends.

Iconodule lays out the most sane and modest response for a Christian in general.

[HouseOfGod]

I agree with Iconodule, and my viewpoint is much the same. The Bible condemns homosexuality, but also those who judge homosexuals for their behavior. Don't worry about the things they call you, stick up for yourself, but don't get into arguments

[akimori makoto]

If thinking homosexual activity is sinful puts you under certain folks' definition of "homophobe", then there's really nothing you can do about it. You can make all the fine distinctions you want but they will continue to see you as a representative of a generally oppressive social order. The only way you might change someone's mind is by your actions- facebook discussions won't cut it.

I for one agree with you that, while homeosexual behavior is sinful, the way this sin is singled out and magnified is wrong and should not be grounds for treating anyone as a second-class citizen. Unfortunately it seems that a large portion of Christendom has had a different idea and that poisons any discourse about the question.

Perfectly stated.

[Alpo]

Someone somewhere said that homosexuals are present-day Samaritans.

[GabrieltheCelt]

I agree with Iconodule, and my viewpoint is much the same. The Bible condemns homosexuality, but also those who judge homosexuals for their behavior.

Don't forget usury!  God hates usurers and so do I!  Who wit me?  

[age234]

Someone somewhere said that homosexuals are present-day Samaritans.

Ehhh, in relation to the Church, Protestants are closer to being present-day Samaritans. The Samaritans were not all committing unnatural sins, they were heterodox Jews or heretics. Both are sins, but they're different things.

Something I thought of when reading the OP: I think what bothers me about the whole thing—and why it so impassions many Christians—is that it's a textbook example of a slippery slope. At first, homosexuals wanted to not be arrested for what they did in private. OK, so sodomy was decriminalized. But it kept going, drip, drip, drip, in that petty pace from day to day, until now some decry it as hateful bigotry to not endorse homosexuality with a big smile and two thumbs up.

[age234]

I agree with Iconodule, and my viewpoint is much the same. The Bible condemns homosexuality, but also those who judge homosexuals for their behavior.

Don't forget usury!  God hates usurers and so do I!  Who wit me?  

I'm with you.

[Alpo]

Ehhh, in relation to the Church, Protestants are closer to being present-day Samaritans. The Samaritans were not all committing unnatural sins, they were heterodox Jews or heretics. Both are sins, but they're different things.

True but that doesn't really change anything. Protestants might be present-day Samaritans on Catholic and Orthodox internet forums but homosexuals are also in the real world. Hardly any group is despised by Christians as much as homosexuals. Sounds like Jews of old who despised Samaritans.

[age234]

Ehhh, in relation to the Church, Protestants are closer to being present-day Samaritans. The Samaritans were not all committing unnatural sins, they were heterodox Jews or heretics. Both are sins, but they're different things.

True but that doesn't really change anything. Protestants might be present-day Samaritans on Catholic and Orthodox internet forums but homosexuals are also in the real world. Hardly any group is despised by Christians as much as homosexuals. Sounds like Jews of old who despised Samaritans.

How are we defining "despise"? I think Fred Phelps despises homosexuals. I've never met an Orthodox Fred Phelps.

We won't endorse homosexual activity, we won't say it's just a variation to be embraced. We won't support their attempts to change the Church like the Anglicans did. We won't encourage them to live according to the way they feel. Does that amount to "despise"?

[Alpo]

We won't endorse homosexual activity, we won't say it's just a variation to be embraced. We won't support their attempts to change the Church like the Anglicans did. We won't encourage them to live according to the way they feel.

The Church or God doesn't but the Orthodox or the Christians in general might and do despise them.

I submit to the Church's teachings on ethics. All I am critisizing is individual Christians and their doings which often doesn't represent Christ and his love that well.

[JamesR]

What I do not understand about these debates is that many people in defense of homosexuality say that considering homosexual actions a sin is bigotry because they feel these natural desires to perform these actions and asking them not to act on these urges is too heavy a burden. I disagree. If we are going to go by this logic, then couldn't we also say that asking a pathological serial killer not to commit murder is bigotry because we are being inconsiderate of his natural (twisted) psychological desire to murder?

[dzheremi]

The difference is in the gravity and consent involved, James, or so the argument goes. A murderer by definition takes the life of an unwilling participant in that activity, whereas a homosexual committing their acts most likely does so with a willing participant, and those acts most likely do not immediately take the life of the partner. Heck, I am certainly not a supporter of homosexuality, but even I see things this way. It is really hard to seriously argue for this kind of comparison.

We as religious people need to realize that we have completely lost this public argument, as a result of the cultural shift of the last 60 years or so in Western (and increasingly non-Western) societies. The reasons for this are complex (but might be partially explained in opinion articles like this one), but what you've experienced, OP, is just one small, thankfully relatively self-contained incidence of it. I worry much more for military chaplains and other public/immediately identifiable members of society than I do two kids on facebook. You can opt out of that; they, by contrast, are really feeling the sharp end of this never-ending debate, in the form of firings, threats from superiors of firings, withholding of promotions, forced compromise of the Biblical message via government restriction/redefinition of their role, etc. Lord have mercy.

[soderquj]

Good podcast on this subject.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/orthodoxyheterodoxy/arent_you_supposed_to_hate_me

"I do not in any sense believe that I am better than someone else just because the set of temptations I have and those I succumb to are different from someone else’s. How can I hate someone else for his sins or his temptations? I have so many of my own."

[ialmisry]

Ehhh, in relation to the Church, Protestants are closer to being present-day Samaritans. The Samaritans were not all committing unnatural sins, they were heterodox Jews or heretics. Both are sins, but they're different things.

True but that doesn't really change anything. Protestants might be present-day Samaritans on Catholic and Orthodox internet forums but homosexuals are also in the real world. Hardly any group is despised by Christians as much as homosexuals. Sounds like Jews of old who despised Samaritans.

The Samaritans stayed on their mountain.  The gay lobby wants to take over the Church.  Those homosexual Christians who don't want to change morality to suit them aren't so despised.

[ialmisry]

The difference is in the gravity and consent involved, James, or so the argument goes. A murderer by definition takes the life of an unwilling participant in that activity, whereas a homosexual committing their acts most likely does so with a willing participant, and those acts most likely do not immediately take the life of the partner. Heck, I am certainly not a supporter of homosexuality, but even I see things this way. It is really hard to seriously argue for this kind of comparison.

In the age of Armin Merwes? Not hard to argue at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes#cite_ref-6

[HouseOfGod]

I agree with Iconodule, and my viewpoint is much the same. The Bible condemns homosexuality, but also those who judge homosexuals for their behavior.

Don't forget usury!  God hates usurers and so do I!  Who wit me?  

Lol 

[HouseOfGod]

Someone somewhere said that homosexuals are present-day Samaritans.

Ehhh, in relation to the Church, Protestants are closer to being present-day Samaritans. The Samaritans were not all committing unnatural sins, they were heterodox Jews or heretics. Both are sins, but they're different things.

Something I thought of when reading the OP: I think what bothers me about the whole thing—and why it so impassions many Christians—is that it's a textbook example of a slippery slope. At first, homosexuals wanted to not be arrested for what they did in private. OK, so sodomy was decriminalized. But it kept going, drip, drip, drip, in that petty pace from day to day, until now some decry it as hateful bigotry to not endorse homosexuality with a big smile and two thumbs up.

^This

[orthonorm]

I agree with Iconodule, and my viewpoint is much the same. The Bible condemns homosexuality, but also those who judge homosexuals for their behavior.

Don't forget usury!  God hates usurers and so do I!  Who wit me?  

Lol 

Time to start a new church. Let's do it.

We'll protest at the funerals of those who participate in the war profiteering industry.

[NicholasMyra]

it's a textbook example of a slippery slope. At first, homosexuals wanted to not be arrested for what they did in private. OK, so sodomy was decriminalized. But it kept going, drip, drip, drip, in that petty pace from day to day, until now some decry it as hateful bigotry to not endorse homosexuality with a big smile and two thumbs up.

but...

wha...

really?

So is it a slope or a faucet?

What textbook are you reading?

[orthonorm]

it's a textbook example of a slippery slope. At first, homosexuals wanted to not be arrested for what they did in private. OK, so sodomy was decriminalized. But it kept going, drip, drip, drip, in that petty pace from day to day, until now some decry it as hateful bigotry to not endorse homosexuality with a big smile and two thumbs up.

but...

wha...

really?

So is it a slope or a faucet?

What textbook are you reading?

Dripping slopes? I think we can see the psychoanalytical underbelly in that mixed metaphor.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We live in a world entirely surrounded by sin.  We are supposed to pray for sinners.  We are supposed to have love, compassion, and mercy on sinners at every step.  If we live in a world where we can ignore on our daily routines adultery, profanity, greed, corruption, thievery, etc etc, and still smile and share coffee with our co-workers and compatriots who do these things, why not homosexuals? It is a double-standard.
We tolerate the kinds of sins we ourselves are culpable and capable of, but spurn those which are seemingly foreign to us.  

If we in our day-to-day interactions with other kinds of sinners, can tolerate and love the sinner while seemingly or temporarily forgetting the sin, why not with homosexuals? In other words, if we nitpick about particular sins we feel less comfortable with than others, and then hold those sinners more accountable than others, we are being bigots.  

We need to become tolerant and loving of homosexuals as PEOPLE.  Yes, their lifestyle and sexuality is a sin in our Church.  So is just about everything else the rest of us, Christians included, commit on a daily basis. If we are all sinners, why hold it only against a particular group? Hence the bigotry.  

I have several gay folks in my family and friend networks, I don't treat them any differently than anyone else.  I have coffee or lunch with them, we catch movies or concerts, we meet up at family gatherings, we interact at a normal, human level.  Yes, they are sinners.  But they are people too..

"The healthy are not in need of physicians, but those who are sick."



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Shanghaiski]

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

Post of the Month err..Year

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Father H]

I personally find that this whole conversation about homophobes is a distraction from the real problem......homophones.
We have tolerated them decade after decade, century after century, just to have newcomers to English confused by simpleton billboards.
Call me a homophonaphobic, but I will not budge.     

[orthonorm]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

Post of the Month err..Year

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Not quite the style I am looking for in a post, but I concur this is good stuff and should cause the mouths of "Christians" to close quickly on the issue.

Shanghaiski and Iconodule should write a primer on how not to be an idiotic Christian when dealing with homosexuality.

[Father H]

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

We cannot demand anything of anyone.  It is not us but the Lord who commands these things.  And yes, we can and ought spread the Gospel and the commandments, while at the same time  admitting our shortcomings.   The saints were not dismissive like some on this forum, where "we are also sinners so we can't say anything."  That is ridiculous.  You cannot raise children this way, you cannot bring anyone to repentence this way.  The saints were nice, but tough, and at times humorous to drive a point home.

[Father H]

BTW when did the ban on homosexuality as a topic get lifted? 

[Asteriktos]

BTW when did the ban on homosexuality as a topic get lifted? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29884.0.html

[Father H]

BTW when did the ban on homosexuality as a topic get lifted? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29884.0.html

TY

[Iconodule]

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

We cannot demand anything of anyone.  It is not us but the Lord who commands these things.  And yes, we can and ought spread the Gospel and the commandments, while at the same time  admitting our shortcomings.   The saints were not dismissive like some on this forum, where "we are also sinners so we can't say anything."  That is ridiculous.  You cannot raise children this way, you cannot bring anyone to repentence this way.  The saints were nice, but tough, and at times humorous to drive a point home.

I think the problem is that Christians are increasingly known as "those people who don't like homosexuality, abortion, porn, or dancing." The love of God and its accompanying humility and kindness toward fellow human beings is overshadowed by culture warrior antics. I am of course speaking of the public image of Christianity, created jointly by its enemies and its louder, prouder, more obnoxious proponents. Certainly the central gospel is practiced and preached today by some, but what most people see is a mutilated gospel. Unfortunately Christianity is made to appear to be a system of restrictions which seem onerous and pointless to take on, in the absence of the fundamental love of God and neighbor. Before we get into particular commandments, we need to show who God is and why it is good to follow him. I was reading St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians the other day and I was struck how, while it seems to have many moral/ ethical injunctions, these are transfigured in the light of the general tone of the letter, which is an ecstatic and overflowing love of God. However, many times this letter is presented simply with snippets of the moral injunctions and commentary thereon, and the words lose their power this way.

[vamrat]

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

We cannot demand anything of anyone.  It is not us but the Lord who commands these things.  And yes, we can and ought spread the Gospel and the commandments, while at the same time  admitting our shortcomings.   The saints were not dismissive like some on this forum, where "we are also sinners so we can't say anything."  That is ridiculous.  You cannot raise children this way, you cannot bring anyone to repentence this way.  The saints were nice, but tough, and at times humorous to drive a point home.

I think the problem is that Christians are increasingly known as "those people who don't like homosexuality, abortion, porn, or dancing." The love of God and its accompanying humility and kindness toward fellow human beings is overshadowed by culture warrior antics. I am of course speaking of the public image of Christianity, created jointly by its enemies and its louder, prouder, more obnoxious proponents. Certainly the central gospel is practiced and preached today by some, but what most people see is a mutilated gospel. Unfortunately Christianity is made to appear to be a system of restrictions which seem onerous and pointless to take on, in the absence of the fundamental love of God and neighbor. Before we get into particular commandments, we need to show who God is and why it is good to follow him. I was reading St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians the other day and I was struck how, while it seems to have many moral/ ethical injunctions, these are transfigured in the light of the general tone of the letter, which is an ecstatic and overflowing love of God. However, many times this letter is presented simply with snippets of the moral injunctions and commentary thereon, and the words lose their power this way.

I believe on the same lines as you and Shanghaiski, though I think what you are saying can be expanded further.  Christianity as a society in this country has failed, and failed utterly miserably.  The first problem is that it is a house divided.  There are way too many little sects and more and more of them are nothing more than untaxed profit-generating institutions.  Their intent is not to spread the message of Christ, it is to benefit their own churches.  They will change their doctrine to fit the times, just to keep the pews full and by extension the offering plates.  This is a new and foreign religion.  It is Churchianity.

If Christianity is going to succeed, it will need to become a family, a tribe, a society once again.  It needs to separate itself from "Babylon".  I think we could stand to learn from the Mormons and the Moslems.  Fas est et ab hoste doceri, and all that good stuff.  Once we actually have Christians again in the country, then we can start showing homosexuals the truth.  Until then, when Christians try telling them that they are going to Hell [fire, brimstone, dying kittens, etc] they will probably laugh in our faces, and rightfully so.  I think it is out duty to believe that it is a sin, not take part in it ourselves, and admonish our fellow Christians when necessary, but those Westboro blokes aren't doing anyone any favours...except maybe the prince of this world.

[Shanghaiski]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

Post of the Month err..Year

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Not quite the style I am looking for in a post, but I concur this is good stuff and should cause the mouths of "Christians" to close quickly on the issue.

Shanghaiski and Iconodule should write a primer on how not to be an idiotic Christian when dealing with homosexuality.

How's this for the primer: Love and sacrifice.

[Shanghaiski]

In many ways, Christians have failed homosexuals and others by not practicing the virtues of chastity and purity. We cannot demand of others what we do not do ourselves. And what of those who have attained to chastity and purity--our saints--how much time to they spend pointing out the sins of others?

Sometimes, when we think of ourselves as sinners, it is an afterthought. But, for the saints, it is the starting point. By their own repentance they are able to help others to repentance.

We cannot demand anything of anyone.  It is not us but the Lord who commands these things.  And yes, we can and ought spread the Gospel and the commandments, while at the same time  admitting our shortcomings.   The saints were not dismissive like some on this forum, where "we are also sinners so we can't say anything."  That is ridiculous.  You cannot raise children this way, you cannot bring anyone to repentence this way.  The saints were nice, but tough, and at times humorous to drive a point home.

Indeed.

But I am thinking of the confessors who knelt and wept with those who came to them for confession.

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