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Author Topic: St. Louis de Montfort  (Read 2334 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 20, 2012, 03:52:55 PM »

Do you Orthodox Christians consider the writings of St Louis de Montfort, especially on Mariology, to be "over the line"?
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 04:10:20 PM »

Do you Orthodox Christians consider the writings of St Louis de Montfort, especially on Mariology, to be "over the line"?

Do *you*?
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 04:14:26 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 04:51:10 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 04:53:44 PM »

And very devout to the Virgin ! Especially in his teachings about the Rosary !
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 04:55:26 PM »

Do you Orthodox Christians consider the writings of St Louis de Montfort, especially on Mariology, to be "over the line"?

Why do you ask?
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 05:00:28 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

Well, I don't know. I've heard about him, but probably most converts to Orthodoxy weren't previously Catholic, so they probably haven't. It'd be a bit like asking a message board of Roman Catholics what their opinions are of Tamav Irini or Abdelmasih el-Habashi. If you have an opinion, great, but it would be a bit unusual.
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 05:18:14 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

I find his idea of "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be alien to Scripture and the Fathers. That his innovations are well known and he is highly venerated amongst Roman Catholics is another reason why I could not happily become Roman Catholic.

I am glad he is mostly unknown amongst Orthodox Christians. Orthodoxy has a proper veneration of the Theotokos which avoids the hypertrophy that has often infused modern Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 04:57:49 AM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

I find his idea of "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be alien to Scripture and the Fathers. That his innovations are well known and he is highly venerated amongst Roman Catholics is another reason why I could not happily become Roman Catholic.

I am glad he is mostly unknown amongst Orthodox Christians. Orthodoxy has a proper veneration of the Theotokos which avoids the hypertrophy that has often infused modern Roman Catholicism.

Though in context that phrase may be quite alien to the Tradition, what you quoted really isn't.  The Church teaches that we are to pray to the saints, and that we should ask them to intercede on our behalf before the throne of God.  More than any other, we are to ask the Theotokos to do so.  What exactly do you find alien about that phrase?
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 09:04:03 AM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

I find his idea of "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be alien to Scripture and the Fathers.

I'm a little rusty concerning the fine details of this matter, but one would expect the phrase "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be less controversial than the phrase "praying to Mary".
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 08:13:16 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

I find his idea of "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be alien to Scripture and the Fathers. That his innovations are well known and he is highly venerated amongst Roman Catholics is another reason why I could not happily become Roman Catholic.

I am glad he is mostly unknown amongst Orthodox Christians. Orthodoxy has a proper veneration of the Theotokos which avoids the hypertrophy that has often infused modern Roman Catholicism.

Though in context that phrase may be quite alien to the Tradition, what you quoted really isn't.  The Church teaches that we are to pray to the saints, and that we should ask them to intercede on our behalf before the throne of God.  More than any other, we are to ask the Theotokos to do so.  What exactly do you find alien about that phrase?
I wrote "his idea". I am not arguing with the Church's teaching about that phrase but his. What about St. Louis de Montfort's teaching would you like to defend?
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 10:34:01 PM »

I was never comfortable with his writings when I read them as a Catholic; I suppose that hasn't changed. I don't know if there is some kind of official church stance on him, though. I doubt it. I doubt that any Orthodox person I know (outside of perhaps some on the internet who are particularly interested in Orthodox-Catholic relations) has ever even heard of him.


It's quite likely that informed Catholic converts to Orthodoxy will have heard of him.  He *is* extremely  well-known, and highly venerated amongst Catholics.

I find his idea of "praying to Jesus through Mary" to be alien to Scripture and the Fathers. That his innovations are well known and he is highly venerated amongst Roman Catholics is another reason why I could not happily become Roman Catholic.

I am glad he is mostly unknown amongst Orthodox Christians. Orthodoxy has a proper veneration of the Theotokos which avoids the hypertrophy that has often infused modern Roman Catholicism.

Though in context that phrase may be quite alien to the Tradition, what you quoted really isn't.  The Church teaches that we are to pray to the saints, and that we should ask them to intercede on our behalf before the throne of God.  More than any other, we are to ask the Theotokos to do so.  What exactly do you find alien about that phrase?
I wrote "his idea". I am not arguing with the Church's teaching about that phrase but his. What about St. Louis de Montfort's teaching would you like to defend?

Perhaps you could say what's wrong with it, first?
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 04:33:41 PM »


I wrote "his idea". I am not arguing with the Church's teaching about that phrase but his. What about St. Louis de Montfort's teaching would you like to defend?

Perhaps you could say what's wrong with it, first?
I have already stated that I think his ideas are alien to Scripture and the Fathers. These do not speak of "total consecration to Mary". Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos is proper; his is not.

Have you even read him? Do you find this in the Fathers?

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 08:54:49 PM »


I wrote "his idea". I am not arguing with the Church's teaching about that phrase but his. What about St. Louis de Montfort's teaching would you like to defend?

Perhaps you could say what's wrong with it, first?
I have already stated that I think his ideas are alien to Scripture and the Fathers. These do not speak of "total consecration to Mary". Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos is proper; his is not.

Have you even read him? Do you find this in the Fathers?

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Firstly, calm down.  I wasn't attacking you or calling you wrong.  I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.  And no, I've never read him, which is why I was asking.

On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 02:22:57 AM »


I wrote "his idea". I am not arguing with the Church's teaching about that phrase but his. What about St. Louis de Montfort's teaching would you like to defend?

Perhaps you could say what's wrong with it, first?
I have already stated that I think his ideas are alien to Scripture and the Fathers. These do not speak of "total consecration to Mary". Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos is proper; his is not.

Have you even read him? Do you find this in the Fathers?

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Firstly, calm down.  I wasn't attacking you or calling you wrong.  I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.  And no, I've never read him, which is why I was asking.

On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

I am perfectly calm. You are arguing without information.  I suggest you read him in context and tell me if his ideas are Orthodox. Based on Scripture and the Fathers, I think they are not. Yes, there are limits to what is proper and, as Met Jonah has said, Roman hypertrophy of Mary is not.

If, after reading, you would like to defend his ideas as Orthodox, have a go. I think they are not and there is plenty wrong with it.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 03:14:09 AM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.

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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 08:55:09 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 09:18:41 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 10:37:39 AM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.


Keep on ridin'....

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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 02:46:49 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.

Apparently I pay closer attention to your liturgies than you do....which is instructive...to me.... Wink
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 03:19:06 PM »

As usual, Elijahmaria knows Orthodoxy better than the Orthodox...what the heck are the rest of us doing, then...?  Roll Eyes Grin
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 03:28:41 PM »

As usual, Elijahmaria knows Orthodoxy better than the Orthodox...what the heck are the rest of us doing, then...?  Roll Eyes Grin

With respect to some of the Internet Crowd...I've been wondering precisely that for quite a while.
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 03:37:08 PM »

As usual, Elijahmaria knows Orthodoxy better than the Orthodox...what the heck are the rest of us doing, then...?  Roll Eyes Grin

With respect to some of the Internet Crowd...I've been wondering precisely that for quite a while.
it's not wondering if you have already fix[at]ed on an answer.  It is the perplexity that reality does not fit your predetermined answer.
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 03:38:14 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.

Apparently I pay closer attention to your liturgies than you do....which is instructive...to me.... Wink
no, you just have the secret decoder ring that the Vatican provides which we happily lack.
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2012, 04:56:46 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.
I've noticed that whenever someone here points to questionable Roman Catholic Mariology, the RCs here counter with allusions to the Orthodox exhortation "Theotokos, save us". It is the rhetorical equivalent to yelling "hey look over there!" whenever the conversation becomes uncomfortable.

There are numerous threads here about the phrase "Theotokos, save us". That RCs insist on changing the subject is quite revealing.

I've see nothing in Orthodoxy that refers to the Theotokos as our slave master or judge, as St. Louis de Montfort does.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2012, 05:07:27 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.
I've noticed that whenever someone here points to questionable Roman Catholic Mariology, the RCs here counter with allusions to the Orthodox exhortation "Theotokos, save us". It is the rhetorical equivalent to yelling "hey look over there!" whenever the conversation becomes uncomfortable.

There are numerous threads here about the phrase "Theotokos, save us". That RCs insist on changing the subject is quite revealing.

I've see nothing in Orthodoxy that refers to the Theotokos as our slave master or judge, as St. Louis de Montfort does.


There's nothing wrong with that language.  It is language meant to highlight the littleness of souls and the greatness of the Mother of God, through whom all grace comes into the world.  You don't like it.  That is all that is wrong with it.  It rubs you the wrong way...

So get over it or condemn it an move on but don't try to "reason" it away as long as Orthodoxy continues to call on her to save them.
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2012, 06:17:38 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2012, 06:28:47 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2012, 06:50:44 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2012, 06:57:53 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.
I've noticed that whenever someone here points to questionable Roman Catholic Mariology, the RCs here counter with allusions to the Orthodox exhortation "Theotokos, save us". It is the rhetorical equivalent to yelling "hey look over there!" whenever the conversation becomes uncomfortable.

There are numerous threads here about the phrase "Theotokos, save us". That RCs insist on changing the subject is quite revealing.

I've see nothing in Orthodoxy that refers to the Theotokos as our slave master or judge, as St. Louis de Montfort does.


There's nothing wrong with that language.  It is language meant to highlight the littleness of souls and the greatness of the Mother of God, through whom all grace comes into the world.  You don't like it.  That is all that is wrong with it.  It rubs you the wrong way...

So get over it or condemn it an move on but don't try to "reason" it away as long as Orthodoxy continues to call on her to save them.

It rubs me the wrong way because it is not Orthodox. That is all.

I know from a Roman perspective, there is nothing wrong with any manifestation of RC Mariology. No surprise there.

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elijahmaria
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2012, 06:59:28 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...




Not different in meaning at all.  De Montfort is quite Pauline in his teachings.  Be as obedient as slaves!

And better to have the Mother of the Lord judging than the Just Judge Himself, for mercy comes through her like cool water from a mountain spring....

You have a lawyers soul...nitting and picking and parsing. 

De Montfort was a poet whose teachings were rooted in Scripture and the teachings of the holy fathers of the east and west.

I'll stay with the well read poet.

Just sayin'....

PS: BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 07:08:52 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2012, 07:12:34 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...


I don't see any substantive difference. Seems to me this is just being used as an excuse to criticize something that came from a Catholic. I've certainly heard language just as flowery used by Russian priests on numerous occasions.
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Clemente
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2012, 07:15:02 PM »

Quote
I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

I was saying that the little snippet you posted, at least out of context, was perfectly Orthodox.

Perfectly Orthodox?  If directed to Christ, yes.  Otherwise, no. 

Quote
On that quote, while it might be a little over the top, I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with it, necessarily.

Being over the top isn't the problem.  This isn't the relationship/orientation we have with the Theotokos.



Well thank goodness!!  What a scandal to ask for the Theotokos to "save" you...really!!  Where is the lobby to change that horribly over the top prayer...I'll go sign the petition... Grin

M.

Reading the actual statement might help with your misunderstanding.  I'll post it again:

Quote
[To the Virgin Mary:] I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure

Where do you see "save me" in there?  We commend ourselves to Christ our God, not to the Theotokos.  We have an extremely important relationship with the Theotokos, but we are not her slaves, and she is not our judge (as the phrase "leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me" clearly indicates. 

Where is Christ or the Trinity in the quoted statement above?

But you are playing the role of the RC quite well, reflexively defending false doctrine and statements regarding the Mother of God.
Now, to play my role, I'll bring up the 5th Marian Dogma, Papal Infallibility, and maybe throw in a reference to the sacking of Constantinople.



"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...

Not different in meaning at all.  De Montfort is quite Pauline in his teachings.  Be as obedient as slaves!

And better to have the Mother of the Lord judging than the Just Judge Himself, for mercy comes through her like cool water from a mountain spring....

You have a lawyers soul...nitting and picking and parsing.  

De Montfort was a poet whose teachings were rooted in Scripture and the teachings of the holy fathers of the east and west.

I'll stay with the well read poet.

Just sayin'....
Oh, I see, poetic licence to be unorthodox!

Since De Montfort is so "Pauline", perhaps you could cite where St. Paul exhorts us to be slaves of the Theotokos or where he suggests that the Theotokos is the judge of our souls.

Take your time.
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2012, 08:13:04 PM »

Quote
BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/

Whoever painted that "icon" of the Mother of God got it seriously wrong.  Angry Angry

The Mother of God is the Queen and Mother, petitioning her Son and God on our behalf, just as dowager queens of old did. She should not be shown seated on the throne of God, surrounded by seraphim, and with cherubim at her feet. She is our most powerful intercessor before God, being the Mother of the King, but she is not God.
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2012, 08:33:17 PM »

Quote
BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/

Whoever painted that "icon" of the Mother of God got it seriously wrong.  Angry Angry

The Mother of God is the Queen and Mother, petitioning her Son and God on our behalf, just as dowager queens of old did. She should not be shown seated on the throne of God, surrounded by seraphim, and with cherubim at her feet. She is our most powerful intercessor before God, being the Mother of the King, but she is not God.

 Now will you be contacting them, or writing to your Bishop/Patriarch?... Wink

PS: Un-Cut Mountain are not the only vendors of that set...BTW...I mean not the only ORTHODOX vendors of the set.  I haven't seen it in any Catholic locations.
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2012, 08:53:10 PM »

Quote
PS: Un-Cut Mountain are not the only vendors of that set...BTW...I mean not the only ORTHODOX vendors of the set.  I haven't seen it in any Catholic locations.

Uncut Mountain is simply a vendor of the products it chooses to stock. Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper. Such stores, even those which are attached to churches and monasteries, frequently stock images which the Church has repeatedly proclaimed as contrary to its teachings, or others which can be demonstrably suspect or wrong, usually, it must be said, in honest ignorance.

A few years ago, I saw for sale an embroidered "icon" which was, unfortunately, of St Sergius and Bacchus originally painted by the notorious Robert Lentz. This image was produced by an Orthodox monastery. I emailed the convent, and delicately explained the origins of the image. The Abbess's reply made it quite clear that neither she, nor the other mothers and sisters, were aware of this, and that the design was to be removed forthwith from their product range. Within a day, the image had vanished from their website catalog.

Church supply stores can make mistakes. Iconographers can make mistakes. Correcting them takes much time, effort, and education. Which I, in my own small, insignificant way, am attempting to do.

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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2012, 09:09:12 PM »

Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper.

That's certainly true. (Just consider the Catholic parishes that have New Age workshops and the like.) I am a tad surprised, however, by your objection to that Mary icon.
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2012, 09:10:26 PM »

Quote
PS: Un-Cut Mountain are not the only vendors of that set...BTW...I mean not the only ORTHODOX vendors of the set.  I haven't seen it in any Catholic locations.

Uncut Mountain is simply a vendor of the products it chooses to stock. Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper. Such stores, even those which are attached to churches and monasteries, frequently stock images which the Church has repeatedly proclaimed as contrary to its teachings, or others which can be demonstrably suspect or wrong, usually, it must be said, in honest ignorance.

A few years ago, I saw for sale an embroidered "icon" which was, unfortunately, of St Sergius and Bacchus originally painted by the notorious Robert Lentz. This image was produced by an Orthodox monastery. I emailed the convent, and delicately explained the origins of the image. The Abbess's reply made it quite clear that neither she, nor the other mothers and sisters, were aware of this, and that the design was to be removed forthwith from their product range. Within a day, the image had vanished from their website catalog.

Church supply stores can make mistakes. Iconographers can make mistakes. Correcting them takes much time, effort, and education. Which I, in my own small, insignificant way, am attempting to do.



Will you go after the Coptic Icons of the Queen of Heaven, which this appears to be taken from, or will you just stick to the Byzantine-Slav tradition in your role as Chief House-Keeper?
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2012, 09:14:16 PM »

Quote
PS: Un-Cut Mountain are not the only vendors of that set...BTW...I mean not the only ORTHODOX vendors of the set.  I haven't seen it in any Catholic locations.

Uncut Mountain is simply a vendor of the products it chooses to stock. Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper. Such stores, even those which are attached to churches and monasteries, frequently stock images which the Church has repeatedly proclaimed as contrary to its teachings, or others which can be demonstrably suspect or wrong, usually, it must be said, in honest ignorance.

A few years ago, I saw for sale an embroidered "icon" which was, unfortunately, of St Sergius and Bacchus originally painted by the notorious Robert Lentz. This image was produced by an Orthodox monastery. I emailed the convent, and delicately explained the origins of the image. The Abbess's reply made it quite clear that neither she, nor the other mothers and sisters, were aware of this, and that the design was to be removed forthwith from their product range. Within a day, the image had vanished from their website catalog.

Church supply stores can make mistakes. Iconographers can make mistakes. Correcting them takes much time, effort, and education. Which I, in my own small, insignificant way, am attempting to do.



Will you go after the Coptic Icons of the Queen of Heaven, which this appears to be taken from, or will you just stick to the Byzantine-Slav tradition in your role as Chief House-Keeper?
What Coptic Icons of the Queen of Heaven?
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2012, 09:24:46 PM »

Quote
BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/

Whoever painted that "icon" of the Mother of God got it seriously wrong.  Angry Angry

The Mother of God is the Queen and Mother, petitioning her Son and God on our behalf, just as dowager queens of old did. She should not be shown seated on the throne of God, surrounded by seraphim, and with cherubim at her feet. She is our most powerful intercessor before God, being the Mother of the King, but she is not God.

You are going to be a busy little bee!!  There are more but I get bored easily:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12h05/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12m12/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/virgin-enthroned-17th-c-cretan-12h10/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/throne-of-heaven-17th-c-cretan-12h06/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/lady-of-the-angels-16th-c-cretan-12h02/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/more-honorable-20th-c-st-anthonys-monastery-12h11/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/panagia-pantanassa-12h09/
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2012, 09:30:22 PM »

Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper.

That's certainly true. (Just consider the Catholic parishes that have New Age workshops and the like.) I am a tad surprised, however, by your objection to that Mary icon.

You shouldn't be. Read my earlier post describing the imagery. I reiterate that the Mother of God stands foremost before the Throne of God, the greatest of all creation, our most powerful intercessor. Orthodox hymnography and prayers are full of such references. But by what authority can she sit in judgement on the very Throne of God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? This is the grave error of this image, in that it elevates her to being equal to God. Just as hymnography must be faithful to orthodox teaching, so must iconography.
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2012, 09:39:28 PM »

This one is waaaaay over the top:

http://www.oramaworld.com/en/p/210333/Panagia_%22Pantanassa%22_-_Aged_Byzantine_Icon
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 09:41:21 PM »

Just because something is sold in an Orthodox store doesn't mean it is automatically canonically proper.

That's certainly true. (Just consider the Catholic parishes that have New Age workshops and the like.) I am a tad surprised, however, by your objection to that Mary icon.

You shouldn't be. Read my earlier post describing the imagery. I reiterate that the Mother of God stands foremost before the Throne of God, the greatest of all creation, our most powerful intercessor. Orthodox hymnography and prayers are full of such references. But by what authority can she sit in judgement on the very Throne of God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? This is the grave error of this image, in that it elevates her to being equal to God. Just as hymnography must be faithful to orthodox teaching, so must iconography.

I think you may have met your "correctness disease" match with The Pantanassa!!

Mary
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2012, 09:42:56 PM »

Quote
BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/

Whoever painted that "icon" of the Mother of God got it seriously wrong.  Angry Angry

The Mother of God is the Queen and Mother, petitioning her Son and God on our behalf, just as dowager queens of old did. She should not be shown seated on the throne of God, surrounded by seraphim, and with cherubim at her feet. She is our most powerful intercessor before God, being the Mother of the King, but she is not God.

You are going to be a busy little bee!!  There are more but I get bored easily:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12h05/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12m12/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/virgin-enthroned-17th-c-cretan-12h10/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/throne-of-heaven-17th-c-cretan-12h06/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/lady-of-the-angels-16th-c-cretan-12h02/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/more-honorable-20th-c-st-anthonys-monastery-12h11/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/panagia-pantanassa-12h09/

Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne, as Queen and Mother, imagery which is (but one instance) expressed in the eirmoi/irmosi of Ode 1 of festal canons to the Mother of God.

Here's an example:

I shall open my mouth, and the Spirit will inspire it, and I shall utter the words of my song to the Queen and Mother: I shall be seen radiantly keeping feast and joyfully praising her wonders.

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2012, 10:06:33 PM »

Quote
BTW there are several matched set icons of The Christ and The Theotokos and one of them...quite popular in Orthodoxy...is that of Christ the Just Judge and His Mother...wah...do!!  I have them right here by my desk:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/sets/christ-and-the-theotokos/christ-the-just-judge-set-mct11/

Whoever painted that "icon" of the Mother of God got it seriously wrong.  Angry Angry

The Mother of God is the Queen and Mother, petitioning her Son and God on our behalf, just as dowager queens of old did. She should not be shown seated on the throne of God, surrounded by seraphim, and with cherubim at her feet. She is our most powerful intercessor before God, being the Mother of the King, but she is not God.

You are going to be a busy little bee!!  There are more but I get bored easily:

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12h05/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/theotokos-more-spacious-than-the-heavens-platytera-12m12/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/virgin-enthroned-17th-c-cretan-12h10/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/throne-of-heaven-17th-c-cretan-12h06/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/lady-of-the-angels-16th-c-cretan-12h02/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/more-honorable-20th-c-st-anthonys-monastery-12h11/

http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-the-theotokos/panagia-pantanassa-12h09/

Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne, as Queen and Mother, imagery which is (but one instance) expressed in the eirmoi/irmosi of Ode 1 of festal canons to the Mother of God.

Here's an example:

I shall open my mouth, and the Spirit will inspire it, and I shall utter the words of my song to the Queen and Mother: I shall be seen radiantly keeping feast and joyfully praising her wonders.

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

You might be able to make this Jell-o stick if the Theotokos were seated alone in the offending icons, as she is depicted without Jesus in Joy of All Who Sorrow, but the bodiless powers are not there in that offending image for the Virgin Mother, I can assure you. 
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2012, 10:10:24 PM »

For those who have yet to figure it out, the reference to the Mother of God as judge holds ONLY with reference to her cooperation with her Son and it is reserved entirely for her role as mediator.  But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.  The same holds true for those icons that have so scandalized LBK.

Mary
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2012, 10:10:56 PM »

Quote
You might be able to make this Jell-o stick if the Theotokos were seated alone in the offending icons, as she is depicted without Jesus in Joy of All Who Sorrow, but the bodiless powers are not there in that offending image for the Virgin Mother, I can assure you.
 

Ah, the standard EM tactic: when you know you've lost the argument, you throw in the red herrings.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2012, 10:14:28 PM »

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But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2012, 10:15:57 PM »

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You might be able to make this Jell-o stick if the Theotokos were seated alone in the offending icons, as she is depicted without Jesus in Joy of All Who Sorrow, but the bodiless powers are not there in that offending image for the Virgin Mother, I can assure you.
 

Ah, the standard EM tactic: when you know you've lost the argument, you throw in the red herrings.  Roll Eyes

Hardly.  I've sent the images around to my usual band of anonymous Orthodox experts and they say you are stretching too far in your estimations here.  The powers and principalities are in that icon for the Christ, not his mother.  I will take the word of the Men in Black...first.... Wink

M.
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2012, 10:44:57 PM »

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my usual band of anonymous Orthodox experts

That says it all. No names, no pack drill. EM obfuscation at its finest when she's on the losing side.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2012, 10:54:17 PM »

For those who have yet to figure it out, the reference to the Mother of God as judge holds ONLY with reference to her cooperation with her Son and it is reserved entirely for her role as mediator.  But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.  The same holds true for those icons that have so scandalized LBK.

Mary
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2012, 10:58:19 PM »



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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2012, 04:54:37 AM »





Be that more folks did so. Doing so isn't hyperdox, any more than is ensuring that the hymns and prayers of the church aren't badly translated or fooled around with. Vigilance is a virtue. angel
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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2012, 08:07:49 AM »

I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2012, 08:11:57 AM »

I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne
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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2012, 08:18:35 AM »

I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.

It is God's throne because of the presence of the bodiless creatures surrounding it, as described in the book of Revelation. Please pay more attention to what I write, I did say as much in previous posts.  Wink
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »

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Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 09:13:51 AM »

You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2012, 10:21:46 AM »

You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2012, 01:57:49 PM »

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Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2012, 02:38:14 PM »

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Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2012, 03:21:58 PM »

You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?

He is, isn't He?:



Are we still talking about the icons EM postedHuh
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2012, 04:21:23 PM »

"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...

Precisely.  Lots of mentions of Christ and Christ's judgment.  Mentioning the Theotokos as a powerful intercessor.  The Akathist... some obvious problems there (of course the Theotokos is not the only intercessor, but regardless, she's still mentioned as an intercessor, not a judge), but nothing that approaches the stuff in the OP quote.

But alas, all of those arguing against St. Louis de Montfort's teachings being Orthodox (which I figured was pretty apparent) are fighting a losing battle, as ElijahMariah has proclaimed that they, in fact, are.

ElijahMariah, if you value the teachings of St. Louis de Monfort, that's fine and certainly understandable.  Defending them makes sense, and coming from your religious affiliation, admirable.  But please spare us your claims of being more Orthodox than the Orthodox on here, or knowing our Liturgy and teachings better.  Highlighted by your weak attempt of throwing out the "Theotokos, save us" line you've done little to advance your argument, and stand little chance of doing so. 

His comments appear strikingly different from Orthodox teachings, and until you can indicate that they are compatible, from an authentically Orthodox perspective rather than your own, you're going to lose this one.
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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2012, 04:38:03 PM »

"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ Cool

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... Wink

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...

Precisely.  Lots of mentions of Christ and Christ's judgment.  Mentioning the Theotokos as a powerful intercessor.  The Akathist... some obvious problems there (of course the Theotokos is not the only intercessor, but regardless, she's still mentioned as an intercessor, not a judge), but nothing that approaches the stuff in the OP quote.

But alas, all of those arguing against St. Louis de Montfort's teachings being Orthodox (which I figured was pretty apparent) are fighting a losing battle, as ElijahMariah has proclaimed that they, in fact, are.

ElijahMariah, if you value the teachings of St. Louis de Monfort, that's fine and certainly understandable.  Defending them makes sense, and coming from your religious affiliation, admirable.  But please spare us your claims of being more Orthodox than the Orthodox on here, or knowing our Liturgy and teachings better.  Highlighted by your weak attempt of throwing out the "Theotokos, save us" line you've done little to advance your argument, and stand little chance of doing so. 

His comments appear strikingly different from Orthodox teachings, and until you can indicate that they are compatible, from an authentically Orthodox perspective rather than your own, you're going to lose this one.

Well talk about a straw dog....

I don't think St. Louis's writings are Orthodox at all.  They come from his own tradition.  He is a man of his own times and place and therefore, so are his words and expressions.

My comments were meant to indicate that they should cause no raised eyebrows among the Orthodox who ask the Theotokos to save them.

If you can get that far along with me without putting MORE thoughts in my head and words in my mouth, maybe we can continue this conversation.

It is NOT about winning and losing.  It is about faith and understanding and acceptance rather than K-Jerk responses.

M.
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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2012, 04:42:30 PM »

You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  police


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?

He is, isn't He?:



Are we still talking about the icons EM postedHuh

I'm currently on a phone that doesn't render images too well. If he actually sits on her, them the analogy holds, as strange as an icon of Christ in Glory sitting on the Theotokos might be.
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« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2012, 03:55:25 PM »

Quote
But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.

I am not so sure that your "agnosticism" is fully justified here.

From the Gospel of Luke and the Prophesy of Symeon:

"Behold, this child is set for the falling and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sin which shall be spoken against. Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
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« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2012, 05:06:57 PM »

Quote
But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.

I am not so sure that your "agnosticism" is fully justified here.

From the Gospel of Luke and the Prophesy of Symeon:

"Behold, this child is set for the falling and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sin which shall be spoken against. Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
Hey Elijahmaria,

You still haven't provided me with all those "Pauline" references: you know, where St. Paul evidently exhorts us to become "slaves" of the Theotokos and to entrust the fate of our souls to the judgement of the Theotokos. Since you claim that De Monfort is "Pauline", I'm sure you won't mind butressing your assertion with a modicum of evidence from Scripture.

Take you time. Really. No rush.
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