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Zenovia
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« Reply #180 on: June 25, 2012, 08:41:50 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes
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Zenovia
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« Reply #181 on: June 25, 2012, 09:08:56 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...

There are certain signs that God gives before a saint is glorified.  I don't believe that Fr. Seraphim Rose has passed the three year mark.  The reason I said that he and the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi won't be glorified, is because both of them stated things which tended towards demogoguery, and saints will never say anything that isn't edifying to their recipients. 

As for Elder Paisios, he had nationalistic feelings towards Greece, but that's understandable  since he had to leave Asia Minor as a child.  He was reprimanded by his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios for prophesizing, and later on he himself realized that many of the prophecies attributed to him were never said by him.   Too many times monks and others will give their own interpretation to what they read...and add a bit here and there.   Wink
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« Reply #182 on: June 25, 2012, 09:15:32 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are so extremely misguided. You are aware that the Roman Catholic Church is in heresy and schism from the true Church right? They have been in heresy for almost 1,000 years now and have not taught orthodoxy since then. They are almost as far away from us as the Protestants and Anglicans are.

So we fast from "carnal" things? I didn't know that meat, dairy and wine/alcohol was carnal. Huh, then I guess Jesus was carnal since he most likely ate meat and dairy during his lifetime, and we know for sure he drank wine.
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« Reply #183 on: June 25, 2012, 09:16:33 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #184 on: June 25, 2012, 09:18:45 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...

There are certain signs that God gives before a saint is glorified.  I don't believe that Fr. Seraphim Rose has passed the three year mark.  The reason I said that he and the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi won't be glorified, is because both of them stated things which tended towards demogoguery, and saints will never say anything that isn't edifying to their recipients. 

As for Elder Paisios, he had nationalistic feelings towards Greece, but that's understandable  since he had to leave Asia Minor as a child.  He was reprimanded by his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios for prophesizing, and later on he himself realized that many of the prophecies attributed to him were never said by him.   Too many times monks and others will give their own interpretation to what they read...and add a bit here and there.   Wink

like I said before, we aren't Roman Catholics and don't require certain signs for someone to be made a Saint. In fact, most of the earliest saints' relics are bones (including the Apostles), which means none of them exhibited in-corrupt bodies after death.

We don't have systematic theology, we aren't legalistic, and we definitely don't have a systematic way of "classifying" and judging who are and aren't saints in our church.

Systematic theology, legalism, official classification etc... are all aspects of heretical Western Christianity post-schism, not of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #185 on: June 25, 2012, 09:20:12 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.
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« Reply #186 on: June 25, 2012, 09:20:59 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?
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« Reply #187 on: June 25, 2012, 09:21:05 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  

Surely there are enough non-fasting, non-festal Mondays in the year upon which to have marital relations and conceive.
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« Reply #188 on: June 25, 2012, 09:25:47 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  

Surely there are enough non-fasting, non-festal Mondays in the year upon which to have marital relations and conceive.

However, Zenovia is claiming sexuality is absolutely carnal, which is not an Orthodox idea. If it were carnal, it would inevitably be sinful...

Why did God tell us all to "be fruitful and multiply" if the very act of multiplying was carnal and sinful?

We fast from things like that, not because they are sinful and carnal but because we use the fasting to learn to control ourselves and let our souls control our bodies and control those feelings. They are good things, eating meat is good, drinking alcohol (in moderation) is okay, sexuality within marriage is okay. However, we have to let our soul control our passions...

Why in the world do you think God created us male and female? Why do you think he granted us our anatomy and other unique differences?

We aren't Roman Catholics, we never fell to the mis-guided teachings of St. Augustine, nor to the heretical teachings of Thomas Aquinas.
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« Reply #189 on: June 25, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?

Devin, for your sake of humor, I hope this was intentional. If so, I bow to you, dear sir.
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« Reply #190 on: June 25, 2012, 09:34:30 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?

Devin, for your sake of humor, I hope this was intentional. If so, I bow to you, dear sir.

I'm not a Roman Catholic, nor a Protestant, just look at my faith status: so I don't see how my comments are self-hating...
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« Reply #191 on: June 25, 2012, 09:41:20 PM »

Devin, you do realize St. Augustine is a saint in your church too?

Also, if the Orthodox Church is the oldest church, that the Roman Catholics got him from you?

 Lips Sealed
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« Reply #192 on: June 25, 2012, 09:43:15 PM »

Devin, you do realize St. Augustine is a saint in your church too?

Also, if the Orthodox Church is the oldest church, that the Roman Catholics got him from you?

 Lips Sealed

Why do you think I referred to him as Saint Augustine?

Just because he is a Saint doesn't mean that everything he ever said was right. In fact, a lot of what he was was dead wrong, and in fact, sadly, was one of the many reasons the Roman Catholic Church fell into heresy. If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.
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« Reply #193 on: June 25, 2012, 09:44:53 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?
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« Reply #194 on: June 25, 2012, 09:46:53 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
 If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

When you write as much as St. Augustine and Origen did, you are bound to make some mistakes. They would definitely take back the incorrect things they wrote if they were alive today and see the results of those writings.
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« Reply #195 on: June 25, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.
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« Reply #196 on: June 25, 2012, 09:51:34 PM »

Wow.  LMAO.  This place is getting out of control.  Cheesy
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« Reply #197 on: June 25, 2012, 09:53:17 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  

Surely there are enough non-fasting, non-festal Mondays in the year upon which to have marital relations and conceive.

However, Zenovia is claiming sexuality is absolutely carnal, which is not an Orthodox idea. If it were carnal, it would inevitably be sinful...

Why did God tell us all to "be fruitful and multiply" if the very act of multiplying was carnal and sinful?

We fast from things like that, not because they are sinful and carnal but because we use the fasting to learn to control ourselves and let our souls control our bodies and control those feelings. They are good things, eating meat is good, drinking alcohol (in moderation) is okay, sexuality within marriage is okay. However, we have to let our soul control our passions...

Why in the world do you think God created us male and female? Why do you think he granted us our anatomy and other unique differences?

We aren't Roman Catholics, we never fell to the mis-guided teachings of St. Augustine, nor to the heretical teachings of Thomas Aquinas.

Do you eat? Do you enjoy eating? You are participating in a carnal activity. Is it sinful? Not necessarily. Carnal does not equal sinful. The two are not interchangeable.

Roman Catholicism is the 800-pound albatross in your eye. Remove it, and you will be able to see clearly enough to remove the white elephant in your neighbor's eye.

No Christian (not even that lovable curmudgeon St. Jerome, may his prayers be with us) would claim that lawful, blessed marital relations are sinful. However, not even the liberal St. John Chrysostom would go to the extreme that some modern Orthodox theologians of dubious report have in making a sacrament out of sex.
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« Reply #198 on: June 25, 2012, 09:53:52 PM »

Wow.  LMAO.  This place is getting out of control.  Cheesy

Was it under control at one point?

Alas for the golden age.
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« Reply #199 on: June 25, 2012, 09:54:04 PM »

Wow.  LMAO.  This place is getting out of control.  Cheesy

No kidding. It is awesome. Biro is going to kill me at this rate (which while most of you would enjoy that outcome, I assure you, I would enjoy it more which puts you in a hedonic dilemma).
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« Reply #200 on: June 25, 2012, 09:55:53 PM »

Where do you get this @#%$?

St. Augustine might wonder the same thing, albeit in Latin.
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« Reply #201 on: June 25, 2012, 09:57:48 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
 If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings.

And doing so qualifies one to make sweeping generalizations and statements of maddening reductionism?
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« Reply #202 on: June 25, 2012, 09:58:45 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.

Your comment makes Origen very sad.
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« Reply #203 on: June 25, 2012, 09:58:58 PM »

Wow.  LMAO.  This place is getting out of control.  Cheesy

No kidding. It is awesome. Biro is going to kill me at this rate (which while most of you would enjoy that outcome, I assure you, I would enjoy it more which puts you in a hedonic dilemma).

I'm starting to picture Biro charging on the batcycle as Orthonorm staggers in grease paint along Michigan Ave going "Come on, hit me. I want you to do it. I want you to do it. Come on." Needless to say, in the event of an inevitable biro/orthonorm showdown, I want film and a comic book or two.
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« Reply #204 on: June 25, 2012, 09:59:08 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many more liberal Orthodox Christians on here... For some reason, 99% of the Orthodox I know in real life are pretty darn conservative when it comes to the faith. Yet here on the internet, it only seems like half of the Orthodox on here are conservative.

I sometimes wonder if people simply have misguided Priests who have fallen into ecumenism and modernism, or if they just ignore their Priests and form their own ideas without reading the saints and fathers of the church or taking advantage of the modern tools given to us by technology such as the ability to listen to hours of Orthodox programming on Ancient Faith Radio and Orthodox Christian Network, or reading the blogs of respectable Orthodox Priests, or even reading the books in our church libraries, on the internet or available for purchase.
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« Reply #205 on: June 25, 2012, 10:00:17 PM »

Where do you get this @#%$?

St. Augustine might wonder the same thing, albeit in Latin.

So many. So little flame. How do you all do it?

Brilliance. All of you.
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« Reply #206 on: June 25, 2012, 10:02:36 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many more liberal Orthodox Christians on here... For some reason, 99% of the Orthodox I know in real life are pretty darn conservative when it comes to the faith. Yet here on the internet, it only seems like half of the Orthodox on here are conservative.

I sometimes wonder if people simply have misguided Priests who have fallen into ecumenism and modernism, or if they just ignore their Priests and form their own ideas without reading the saints and fathers of the church or taking advantage of the modern tools given to us by technology such as the ability to listen to hours of Orthodox programming on Ancient Faith Radio and Orthodox Christian Network, or reading the blogs of respectable Orthodox Priests, or even reading the books in our church libraries, on the internet or available for purchase.

Devin, I hardly see OCnet as being some vast contingent of "liberal" Orthodoxy. We might not all try to adhere 100% to every point of The Rudder, but that's a sign of health, not disease.

As for the second paragraph, yes, those are all good tools, in moderation. We are not called to live in an air-tight Orthodox bubble.
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« Reply #207 on: June 25, 2012, 10:12:46 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many more liberal Orthodox Christians on here... For some reason, 99% of the Orthodox I know in real life are pretty darn conservative when it comes to the faith. Yet here on the internet, it only seems like half of the Orthodox on here are conservative.

I sometimes wonder if people simply have misguided Priests who have fallen into ecumenism and modernism, or if they just ignore their Priests and form their own ideas without reading the saints and fathers of the church or taking advantage of the modern tools given to us by technology such as the ability to listen to hours of Orthodox programming on Ancient Faith Radio and Orthodox Christian Network, or reading the blogs of respectable Orthodox Priests, or even reading the books in our church libraries, on the internet or available for purchase.

“You do not eat meat, but you devour your brother.” - St. Basil the Great
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« Reply #208 on: June 25, 2012, 10:16:12 PM »

Quote from: 88Devin12
  If he were alive today, he would absolutely rescind the things he said.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You also know you're not supposed to play with seance boards, right?

Where do you get this @#%$?

You apparently don't listen to Orthodox speakers nor read Orthodox writings. We would say the same about Origen and others who wrote things that weren't entirely correct, but led to schisms and heresy after they were gone.

St. Augustine is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. If he saw what your church did with his writings, he would take it all back.

Wrong on all counts. You couldn't possibly know what I've done.

And speaking of you, what happened? Did something weird happen this year? In the past few months, it's like they turned a switch and Devin the Orthodox Android showed up, determined to prove that he is programmed to be More Orthodox Than Everybody Else.

Nobody reads Origen anymore. Nobody cares.

Except you, because I guess you need something to get torqued about.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many more liberal Orthodox Christians on here... For some reason, 99% of the Orthodox I know in real life are pretty darn conservative when it comes to the faith. Yet here on the internet, it only seems like half of the Orthodox on here are conservative.

I sometimes wonder if people simply have misguided Priests who have fallen into ecumenism and modernism, or if they just ignore their Priests and form their own ideas without reading the saints and fathers of the church or taking advantage of the modern tools given to us by technology such as the ability to listen to hours of Orthodox programming on Ancient Faith Radio and Orthodox Christian Network, or reading the blogs of respectable Orthodox Priests, or even reading the books in our church libraries, on the internet or available for purchase.

“You do not eat meat, but you devour your brother.” - St. Basil the Great

Liberalism!
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« Reply #209 on: June 25, 2012, 11:20:23 PM »

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts? 

Yes. But apparently you don't, because the only canon that mentions the marital relations of laypeople is the one that excommunicates those that condemn them. I don't know if any local church has ever formalized the relatively late pious custom of combining sexual abstinence with the fasts (though I kind of doubt it), but the only Ecumenical canon that restricts marital relations is canon XIII of the Quinsext and that canon is specifically about those who serve 'at the altar' (i.e., subdeacons and above) and only restricts them in the immediate time period around when they are serving, no other restriction is mentioned and in fact the canon specifically forbids 'depriving them of their mutual intercourse' at other times.


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« Reply #210 on: June 26, 2012, 01:08:29 AM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh
Hell, you can't even read my words correctly! Why, then, should I believe you can read the teachings of the Church correctly?

BTW, your crude resort to sarcasm doesn't accomplish anything except prove that your argument has no substance.
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« Reply #211 on: June 26, 2012, 02:11:31 AM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

but thats just it, Holy Matrimony is of the Spirit and not of the flesh, when we talk about carnality in these sense we are not talking about just the body but its sinful lusts. carnal in its plain anatomical translation means flesh, in its spiritual translation especialy when it is used divorced from its anatomical definition as meaning sinful , it signifies a completely different meaning obviously.

if you read the cannon you quoted again you will see they are very careful to differentiate the lusts of the flesh from just being in the image of Christ who is also Incarnate.  that cannon no where implies that Marital relations are carnal in a sense that they make us deviate from being the image of Christ, we all know however that we are talking about human beings who have body, soul and spirit. we use our bodies to worship , obviously when you do prostration you are not engaging in a carnal act in the sense that it is sinful, however even that can have the potential to be a carnal act depending what motivates such action. in the same way you eat and drink with your body give thanks to God, without it being a carnal act in a sense that it is sinful, however it can also have a potential to be a carnal act, because it can lead to gluttony a clearly carnal act in its sinful definition.

here is Saint Paul clearly demonstrating what carnality= lusts of the flesh means. the whole epistle to the Romans dwells on the theme. more so the 8th chapter.


<< Romans 8 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible   
1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. 2 For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6 For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7 Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8 And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification. 11 And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. 14 For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father). 16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us. 19 For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope: 21 Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now. 23 And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God.

28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? 33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?

36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.)

37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



or in the epistle to the Galatians he makes it even more clearer  5: 16-25

16 I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. 18 But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, 20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, 23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be made desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying on another.




as to the sanctification thats found within marriage, the apostle goes even further to say that this sanctity can even cross over to the none believer spouse yes even their offspring ,  yeah Sanctity! who must be present for there to be sanctity? the Holy Spirit Himself of course! so who are we to call carnal / or sinful lust of the flesh/ that which is sanctified by the Participation of God Himself. When he chose to be present in that marriage , when he is the one who sanctified it, who has joined them and made them one flesh. to call such marriage carnal in its sinful definition is a terrifying thing to me.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy


as to the marriage bed the apostle says its undefiled.

as to the elevation of the married ones in the eyes of the Lord, then we see that our Lord protrays heaven  itself as the bosom of the Patriarch Abraham. the Friend of God. The son of God did not count on it unworthy to be called the Son of David, a man after the heart of God. it is for God to know the honor of each person , however what is reveled to us is the honor of Holy Matrimony , God forbid we would equate it as carnal devoid of the Spirit.



<< 1 Timothy 4 >>
King James Version   
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.




now at this point I will agree with you to disagree, as I believe very differently than you and neither of us will change our minds about it. even the consensual abstaining from marital relations, for the purpose of fasting and prayer, is not based on the premise that marital relation is engaging in lustful feelings of the flesh, just like abstaining from food is not based on the assumption that eating food is sinful, rather quite the opposite. it is true that there is the possibility that all things good can be corrupted by carnal lust, also that all good things given by God can be offered up in sacrifice and thanksgiving that acknowledges that God is the Ultimate Goodness we seek, that we are not attached to any one of the other good things he has given us over him. we offer it with joy, with humility and love as a sacrifice pleasing and acceptable to God. it is never because we regard the things he gave us as sinful.


Peace to you.
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« Reply #212 on: June 26, 2012, 07:31:47 AM »

Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints

You can try.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'. 

We are not Gnostics.
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« Reply #213 on: June 26, 2012, 09:05:22 AM »

Perhaps the fellow who took his life had a vision about what this thread would devolve into? Everybody's made their points for better or worse, the rest is treading water. (By the way, the Rudder is a useful book, but you don't walk around speaking English with a Thesaurus tied to your waist either.....)
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« Reply #214 on: June 26, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »

I weep for Origen.
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« Reply #215 on: July 27, 2012, 05:40:48 AM »

wow...

I have actually spoken to him on youtube before, he said he was a novice and I wanted to know what he thought about the monastery. I will post our conversation if wanted...
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« Reply #216 on: July 27, 2012, 09:02:08 AM »

Perhaps the fellow who took his life had a vision about what this thread would devolve into? Everybody's made their points for better or worse, the rest is treading water. (By the way, the Rudder is a useful book, but you don't walk around speaking English with a Thesaurus tied to your waist either.....)

I guarantee you at least one person on this board has a thesaurus on his/her smartphone.
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« Reply #217 on: July 27, 2012, 09:49:35 AM »

wow...

I have actually spoken to him on youtube before, he said he was a novice and I wanted to know what he thought about the monastery. I will post our conversation if wanted...

Please do post your conversation.
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« Reply #218 on: July 27, 2012, 10:51:01 AM »

On another website, a man recently made a series of responses to posts from the father of the former novice.  I thought I would share them below because a number of important observations are made, and important questions asked, regarding what kind of therapy the former novice received following his departure from the monastery and prior to his tragic demise.  Of course, the father of the former novice has not responded to the messages, but I think it is highly unlikely that a response will be made.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

July 13, 2012
Dear Mr. Nevins,

I grieve with you.

But I am not convinced – yet – that our corporate (as the body of Christ known as the Orthodox Church) “sin denial” is what led to the death of your son.

Three years ago, my sons and I had the pleasure of working with your son in the trapeza during the week of our first pilgrimage to St. Anthony’s Monastery. He was very kind to us. My son fondly remembers Ioannis’ gentle humor during the time when they were making cookies together. The memory of the welcome that Ioannis and the other monks gave to us was an incentive for our pilgrimage the following year.

I have come across some of your postings on the net over the years. I remember reading the one when you rather triumphantly announced that your son, a novice monk had left the monastery. I didn’t know at that time that your son was the novice known to me as Ioannis.

Even when the horrific news of the death of your son was hitting the internet, I didn’t make the connection. It was my son who connected “Scott” with John/Ioannis for me. My family is heartbroken. We pray for him.

My horror and sadness have been compounded by your repeated and almost crazed fulminations against not just St. Anthony’s Monastery, but our Holy Orthodox Faith. It is my belief that you have misplaced the blame.

After all, you succeeded in “rescuing” your son from the monastery. He left it behind. He was no longer a novice. He was back in your care. He enrolled in college in Oregon.

What happened to him after he left the monastery to make him lose hope and give in to despair to the point of no return?

I have come across some of Ioannis’ postings, his comments on youtube against his former Elder and going even further against the Christian faith and against the Lord Jesus Christ. There was a familiar pattern within these nonsensical posts that has raised a warning in my mind.

The posts read to me like false memories. They made me think about anti-cult deprogrammers, specifically the ones that I have heard about on the West Coast.

It occurred to me that you might have engaged the services of an Exit Counselor (a.k.a. “Deprogrammer”) in order to help your son get over his experience of the monastery (in your mind, a cult).

There is an infamous deprogrammer in Oregon named Marion Knox. Do you know of him?

He is a self-proclaimed “deliverance counselor” who practices Repressed Memory Therapy (RMT) and is well known in “Christian” counseling circles . He has been sued for implanting false memories of abuse (spousal abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse) during therapy sessions in those who have sought his services. These false memories have resulted in the destruction of families.

Let us know that Scott/Ioannis was not subject to any Repressed Memory Therapy, deprogramming or any other anti-cultic therapy that could have planted false memories in his mind that put him over the edge and made him lose all hope.

If you are going to continue to try to make a clean case to us that the Greek Orthodox Church through the ministrations of its most vital monastery in the U.S. is indeed solely responsible for the death of your son, then you are going to have to tell us as to what happened to Scott/Ioannis after he left the monastery behind. It should only make your case stronger, right?

------------------------------------------------------------------

July 16, 2012

Mr. Nevins,

On June 21, 2012, The National Herald published the news: Troubled Monk Apparently Commits Suicide in Arizona by reporter Theodore Kalmoukos.

The article quotes a phone conversation between Scott and Elder Paisios:

Quote
Paisios revealed that “on Monday June 4, he called me and threatened me saying ‘I will blow your brains with a gun.’ I told him that it would be good for him to go and see a psychotherapist. He told me that ‘I already had gone and I am well.’

Who is this “psychotherapist” who had been treating Scott after he left the monastery? Might he/she have had an influence in Scott’s behaviour after he left the monastery?

Did you give the name of this therapist to any of investigative bodies (e.g. Pinal County Sheriffs Dept./DA; National Herald; Pokrov; GOA Metropolis of San Francisco) who are looking into the circumstances of your son’s life after he left the monastery?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

July 17, 2012


Mr. Nevins,

According to Scott’s obituary in the Modesto Bee, he was enrolled at Chemetka Community College in Salem, Oregon.

On a hunch I googled, “Marion Knox” and Chemetka Community College.

I found one hit.

There is a private Christian school (grades 6-12) that by strange coincidence is also located in Salem, Oregon called: Western Mennonite School .

The school’s Spring 2009 newsletter( “In Touch”) lists Marion Knox and his wife Doris as donors to the school. It is also interesting to note that under the heading, “What have we accomplished?”, the school proudly notes that “we have added College Credit Now classes through Chemeketa Community College.”

To get the background on Marion Knox, all one has to do is google search terms: “Marion Knox” and “Albany Democrat Herald” and “Jennifer Moody” to read a whole series of investigative articles on Knox and his co-religionists who have destroyed lives by implanting false memories through RMT Therapy.

The first hit you should get on google is this article:

Quote
Marion Knox – A profile: Part 3 in a series
A FAMILY TORN APART: PART 3 IN A SERIES
By Jennifer Moody, Albany Democrat-Herald


The latest news that I have read about Knox is this:

Quote
Linn judge rejects change of venue request in Knox case
April 25, 2012 7:00 am • By Jennifer Moody, Albany Democrat-Herald

If a civil suit against a Lebanon couple alleging the implanting of false memories comes to trial, it will take place in Linn County, Judge James Egan has ruled.Egan heard motions Tuesday in the case against Marion and Doris Knox of Lebanon. He denied their attorney’s request for a change of venue and also denied motions from the plaintiff’s attorney to introduce certain evidence in advance. Former Albany resident Stephan Skotko has sued the Knoxes for negligence, negligent infliction of emotional distress and intentional infliction of emotional distress. He claims Marion Knox, during family counseling sessions, caused his children to falsely believe he had sexually abused them. No trial date has been set.

So Mr. Nevins, is it just a coincidence that Scott was at Chemetka Community College located in the same area where Marion Knox prowled like a lion looking to devour?

Did you lead your son to Marion Knox and his wife Doris for RMT therapy?

Did they implant false memories of abuse into your son?

Were they complicit in removing the hope for salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ from Scott?

Say it isn’t so.

-----------------------------------------------------------

July 18, 2012

Essentially all memory researchers, all of the major mental health therapists’ associations, and most therapists now believe that the “memories” generated from RMT (Recovered Memory Therapy, also known as Repressed Memory Therapy) are images created during the therapy (‘iatrogenic”). They are often called “false memories.” The “memories” are as close to representing real events in the past as are nightmares.

It is known that RMT is an effective way of transferring the general abuse beliefs of therapists (and perhaps in Scott’s case – the parents who hired the therapists) into their clients’ thought processes.

Part of RMT involves “confronting” one’s abuser(s) in person. RMT therapists may urge their patients to surprise the “perpetrator” with a rehearsed confrontation. The rationale for this is that since “survivors” feel powerless, they need “empowerment.”

So was Scott’s June 10 confrontation with the fathers at St. Anthony’s monastery planned and rehearsed in order to “empower” Scott to finally break with the monastery?

If so, something terribly went wrong with the plan.

If Mr. Nevins did indeed engage the services of an RMT therapist (Marion Knox or an associate) in order to tear his son away from the Orthodox Church, then how can the Church be responsible for the harm perpetrated by others on Ioannis Scott after he left the monastery?

Mr. Nevins, please let me know if I have been barking up the wrong tree. I’d like to get to the bottom of this particular monastery mystery.

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« Reply #219 on: July 27, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »

Very interesting and revealing letters. Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #220 on: July 29, 2012, 01:37:35 AM »

Ack!! I cannot find our conversation, it is mysteriously gone from my youtube conversation archives (the messages i sent are there but i cannot find his responses!)

I do remember some of the things he said though.

Most bizarrely, he spoke about when monks are buried. He claimed when the monks are buried they are not dead. He claims that the monks there are buried alive and this causes them not to get rigor mortis and that so called miracles of those who do not decay are actually all fake caused from those burials of living people.

I asked about the Elder Ephraim and Paisios and he did not have much good to say. He said Ephraim was a charlatan, a faker, one who is not holy at all. Basically said the same thing about Paisios. He also said they were satanists. I asked if they taught any weird things but he never responded again.

That is all I can remember, but you can see more from his youtube channel and his comments (this is where I met him, on a youtube video he was commenting)

His youtube channel's name is "skotnevins".

You can get to it by going to youtube. and then after the .com in the url put:

/user/skotnevins
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« Reply #221 on: July 31, 2012, 03:17:58 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


Aw, it's like haiku!
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« Reply #222 on: July 31, 2012, 10:29:04 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


Aw, it's like haiku!

Funny how the guy wasn't a monk, and was no longer even a novice. Also how it cannot be self-hating naive rhetoric when I was simply talking about the ridiculousness of the families and others who speak against the monastery.
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« Reply #223 on: December 26, 2013, 11:20:45 PM »

I think masonic, ecumenist and/modernist elements are working to "discredit" the monastery and Elder Ephraim, because they are traditional, and know about the evils of the new world order, ecumenism and masonry. This is my theory.

The Orthodox who are attacking the monastery, are being used by sinister forces and the social engineers who are trying to create the image that the monastery is somehow abnormal and controversial, when in fact it is not. Don't fall for these lies, people. Just because something is reported on T.V. news, does not mean the accusations are true and objective. Alan Watt (on Youtube) has exposed the television mentality of people today, and how they have been raised since child to believe everything on television is objective truth. Bill Cooper, by the way, claimed that about 95 percent of the information on television comes from the CIA.
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« Reply #224 on: December 26, 2013, 11:20:45 PM »

The social engineers, which are masonic and sinister, are trying to create the image that the monastery is controversial. Don't fall for these lies. My belief is that the monastery is being persecuted because they are against masonry, modernism and ecumenism. Something evil is trying to discredit them. I also believe Scott was implanted with false memories. Never underestimate the evil of the new world order system.
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