Author Topic: Monk commits suicide  (Read 16901 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,087
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2012, 01:03:19 PM »

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  ???

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? :'(
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,073
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2012, 01:11:38 PM »
We should struggle to keep the fasts as proscribed by the Church and as instructed by our spiritual father,
AFAIK, the Church does not proscribe any fasts, since proscribe means to forbid. She prescribes fasts, but she doesn't proscribe them. ;)

Actually, the Church does proscribe fasting.  On Sundays, for instance  ;)

You are correct that I intended to say prescribed

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,479
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2012, 01:16:09 PM »
I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,558
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2012, 01:48:31 PM »
I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  ;)
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,479
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2012, 02:01:16 PM »
I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  ;)

Not limited to us - any thread that gets wrapped up so tightly it spins on and on like a top!  ;)

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2012, 02:29:48 PM »

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  ???

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? :'(
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! ???
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 02:32:05 PM by Zenovia »

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,087
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2012, 04:39:48 PM »

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  ???

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? :'(
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! ???
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 04:41:53 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,667
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2012, 07:07:51 PM »
I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Good point.  If Zenovia is correct, St. Paul has something to do with it as well. 

Offline FatherGiryus

  • A terrible human being
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,565
  • Faith: Genuine New Calendar Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochianistic Eparchy
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2012, 01:23:15 AM »
I have about a dozen threads like this in my head every day!

Say, do you like ice cream?


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,479
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2012, 09:17:13 AM »
Love ice cream...Moose tracks are sinful, perhaps a less passion invoking flavor like artificial vanilla would be better?

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2012, 09:31:59 AM »
I have about a dozen threads like this in my head every day!

Say, do you like ice cream?


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Amen.  As to ice cream, I'll take vanilla with a shot of brandy poured over it.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2012, 02:13:59 PM »

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  ???

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? :'(
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! ???
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!   

As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?   Also I consider Saint Paul an exemplary example  of the sacrifices God expects from His Saints, and they should all be bowed down to for their heroic virtue.  The  Church expects no less.    :)

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,073
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2012, 04:15:21 PM »
Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,087
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2012, 10:56:55 PM »

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  ???

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? :'(
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! ???
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
No. Where do you get that idea?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 01:30:28 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline vorgos

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 294
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2012, 01:07:31 AM »
Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

I think the following quote is really telling of the state of the man...

Quote
I don’t know what to do, dumba**. Help me! Hey, …s**t-head, ask The All Holy Elder Ephraim if he feels like having every tooth beaten out of his Skull, because that’s how I feel”.


Lord have mercy...

Offline vorgos

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 294
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2012, 01:12:55 AM »
Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

jah777 here is the link to the original but you need to sign up to read the whole thing... :(

http://www.thenationalherald.com/article/55811

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2012, 01:09:06 PM »

Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  ???

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   ;)

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2012, 01:18:39 PM »
Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  ???

All your posts in this thread.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2012, 01:20:43 PM »
Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

The loss of a soul must be such a burden on the Elder Ephraim and the rest of the monks.  I can only imagine the amount of prayers that have been said, and are being said for him and others like him.  He had to have been possessed, but without the willingness of the recipient to rid himself of it, how can he be helped?   What a pity!   :(

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,055
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2012, 01:24:06 PM »
Quote
Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »
Quote
Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.

Actually it couldn't have originated from Islam since Islam was later than Christianity, but Buddhism does believe in seven heavens.  I'm assuming the concept of seven heavens is a revelation by God that predates Judaism and the revelation given to them of one God...but this is only my opinion.  I might be wrong, I don't know enough about early religions, nor about Buddhism and when it was established.   As for the concept of seven heavens, if it isn't part of Christian theology, then why would  Saint Paul specify the third heaven?

Again though, this doesn't mean that heaven is a place, or that there are actual borders separating one 'state of being', or rather one 'state of Theosis'  from another, only that our ability is limited, and because of this, concepts have to be structured in ways that we can grasp them.  :)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 01:52:18 PM by Zenovia »

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,055
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2012, 02:13:22 PM »
Quote
Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.

Actually it couldn't have originated from Islam since Islam was later than Christianity, but Buddhism does believe in seven heavens.  I'm assuming the concept of seven heavens is a revelation by God that predates Judaism and the revelation given to them of one God...but this is only my opinion.  I might be wrong, I don't know enough about early religions, nor about Buddhism and when it was established.   As for the concept of seven heavens, if it isn't part of Christian theology, then why would  Saint Paul specify the third heaven?

Again though, this doesn't mean that heaven is a place, or that there are actual borders separating one 'state of being', or rather one 'state of Theosis'  from another, only that our ability is limited, and because of this, concepts have to be structured in ways that we can grasp them.  :)

Alright, I have read a little further. It seems that in this case you are up to something. According to jewish theology, the universe consists of seven heavens. Each of these heavens called Shamayim is the dwellingplace of God and other divine beings.

1.Vilon
 2.Raki'a
 3.Shehaqim
 4.Zebul
 5.Ma'on
 6.Machon
 7.Araboth (Where the Throne of God is located.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofanim
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 02:15:31 PM by Ansgar »
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,087
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2012, 04:14:47 PM »

Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  ???
We already have told you, and many times over. If you're going to be so obtuse that you just don't get the point of our constant arguments with you, then there's really no use repeating to you yet again which of your teachings are heretical.

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   ;)
I know simple logic. What you're presenting is not even logical.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 04:25:41 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,304
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2012, 04:31:46 PM »
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2012, 04:59:56 PM »

Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote


You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  ???
We already have told you, and many times over. If you're going to be so obtuse that you just don't get the point of our constant arguments with you, then there's really no use repeating to you yet again which of your teachings are heretical.

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   ;)
I know simple logic. What you're presenting is not even logical.

Okay you did question the post I wrote about what constitutes a saint in the Orthodox Church, and I did say that the understanding of a saint is different in the Orthodox Church than it is in the Protestant Churches.    I found this in Wikipedia:

"...A saint is a holy person. In various religions, saints are people who are believed to have exceptional holiness.
 
In Christian usage, "saint" refers to any believer who is "in Christ", and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or in earth. (2Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 3:14-19; 2Corinthians 13:5) In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

As for the seven heavens, I found this in a Bible discussion forum:

"...  Therefore the highest heaven is the heaven of wisdom; the second, of understanding; the third, of counsel; the fourth, of might; the fifth, of knowledge; the sixth, of piety; the seventh, of God's fear.
 
- Victorinus, Fathers of the Church, On the Creation of the World..."

The way I would understand this, is that a person progresses from one 'state of being' to a higher 'state of being' after death, in the same way a person grows in Grace during their lifetime.   But again, this is only my interpretation.  Should a Father of the Church interpret it differently, then I would definitely accept their explanations...after all, I'm not a saint.  ;)


 

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2012, 05:03:10 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2012, 05:38:10 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\

 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:51:31 PM by Zenovia »

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,087
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #162 on: June 24, 2012, 07:02:58 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 07:04:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

I may have to sign off this list for a while.  I find myself agreeing with you too much lately.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Sakeneko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 152
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #164 on: June 25, 2012, 12:11:04 AM »
I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  ;)

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #165 on: June 25, 2012, 12:35:40 AM »
May the Lord have mercy on him.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline FatherGiryus

  • A terrible human being
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,565
  • Faith: Genuine New Calendar Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochianistic Eparchy
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #166 on: June 25, 2012, 12:45:14 AM »
I think one can only become imprisoned in a thread if one is possessed by the passion of irrascibility.  However, I think that if one gets really trapped and suffers, it can become something of a purgatorial experience...  8)

Seriously, the man's death is a tragedy.  He was a troubled adult who made a very bad decision, and I doubt any of us will ever know exactly what was going on in the end.

I would like to think that, given his number of weapons he brought with him, that he fought off the temptation to harm others at the monastery, though he was unable to fight off the temptation of suicide.  Lord, have mercy on him.


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  ;)

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,055
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #167 on: June 25, 2012, 04:25:32 AM »
I think one can only become imprisoned in a thread if one is possessed by the passion of irrascibility.  However, I think that if one gets really trapped and suffers, it can become something of a purgatorial experience...  8)

Seriously, the man's death is a tragedy.  He was a troubled adult who made a very bad decision, and I doubt any of us will ever know exactly what was going on in the end.

I would like to think that, given his number of weapons he brought with him, that he fought off the temptation to harm others at the monastery, though he was unable to fight off the temptation of suicide.  Lord, have mercy on him.


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  ;)

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)

Lord have mercy!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,055
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #168 on: June 25, 2012, 04:28:57 AM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.
To her defense, I must remind you, that she has admitted, that sainthood can be achieved while still living in the world.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline psalm110

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • Orthodox Christian
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #169 on: June 25, 2012, 05:52:16 AM »
Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,055
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #170 on: June 25, 2012, 06:10:47 AM »
Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?
I'm not sure about the monastery, but Metropolitan Gerasimos has released a statement.
Quote
Dear Brothers in Christ,


 The responsibility we share as the ordained ministers of the Holy Gospel is a sacred trust bestowed upon us by Holy Ordination. Our ministry is replete with joy and sorrow that we experience with the people of God entrusted to our spiritual care.


 It is, therefore, my paternal obligation to inform you of a tragic event that has occurred within the boundaries of our Holy Metropolis. A young man who had come to our Faith and became a novice at the Holy Monastery of St. Anthony the Great, and subsequently left the Monastery for unknown reasons last year, took his life last Monday morning at approximately 2:45AM. Scott Nevins, 27 years old, had spent six years at St. Anthony's. Last year, after leaving the Monastery he enrolled in a college in Oregon. In the early hours of last Monday morning, Scott took his life in an area near the monastery.


 The proper authorities are investigating this incident and we will cooperate in every way necessary. In addition, the Metropolis is conducting an investigation into this matter.


On behalf of the Holy Metropolis of San Francisco we wish to extend our prayers and love to the Nevins family. May Christ Jesus, our Lord, God and Savior look with mercy upon the soul of his departed servant.
Eternal be his memory!

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/06/troubled-monk-apparently-commits.html
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline psalm110

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • Orthodox Christian
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #171 on: June 25, 2012, 06:29:00 AM »
So Awful :( Why did he walk away from the faith I saw some of the negative comments on youtube he wrote. What happened is what everyone wants to know I guess.

Offline Hiwot

  • Christ is Risen!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,959
  • Job 19:25-27
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #172 on: June 25, 2012, 03:20:10 PM »
Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  ::)

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #173 on: June 25, 2012, 03:31:15 PM »
Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?

Thank God, He doesn't abandon anyone.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #174 on: June 25, 2012, 08:03:27 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   ???

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,148
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #175 on: June 25, 2012, 08:14:26 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   ???

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #176 on: June 25, 2012, 08:20:05 PM »
Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  ::)

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,148
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #177 on: June 25, 2012, 08:24:11 PM »
Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  ::)

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:24:49 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2012, 08:33:38 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   ???

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).   

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. :angel: 

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,148
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Monk commits suicide
« Reply #179 on: June 25, 2012, 08:38:24 PM »
In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   :-\
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   ???

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. :angel:  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:41:29 PM by 88Devin12 »