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Author Topic: Monk commits suicide  (Read 11370 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 20, 2012, 12:59:36 PM »

A 27-year-old monk from Saint Anthony greek orthodox monastery has taken his own life.
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/suicide-incident-shocks-monks-st-anthony-monastery-in-arizona/

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 01:06:58 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 01:07:51 PM »

 Cry Cry

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 01:13:35 PM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 01:20:49 PM »

I saw a news broad cast on youtube about this monastery, where Orthodox families were worried about their sons' lives because of abuse or something, ill see if i can find it. Either way, Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »

^^
Here is the youtube video that I was referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rw8SDZVsbc&feature=related

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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 01:33:30 PM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 02:01:59 PM »

This is very sad indeed. 

The title of this post, though, should more accurately say "former novice", since he had not been a resident of the monastery for some time before his tragic demise.

This man and his family are now in need of much prayer.  His non-Orthodox parents were vehemently against Orthodoxy and the monastery in particular; and constantly harassed the bishop, the monastery, and their son about his decision to become an Orthodox monk.  His dad has been known to join Orthodox discussion lists and send lengthy messages railing against all things Orthodox.  After 6 years, his son did leave the monastery and returned home to his parents; but now that he has left his parents and returned to the monastery to end his own life, his father is all the more enraged and blames Orthodoxy, the bishop, and the monastery, for his son’s decision to take his own life.  May the Lord remove this bitterness and heal these most painful wounds. 

The former novice left a lot of comments on YouTube in the months prior to his tragic end that suggest that he was not well.  He claimed, for instance, that the monastery buries monks while they are still living (to explain why monastics there and on Mt. Athos do not experience rigor mortis before their burial), that the Holy Fire in Jerusalem is a fake, that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was a charlatan, the monastery’s Elder is “from Satan”, and many other things that are beyond belief. 

In his public YouTube profile, it can be seen that this man was also viewing and "liking" a number of videos on machine guns and the making of explosives in recent months.  The fact that the report linked above states that he went to the monastery with two guns and a knife suggests that he may have intended to end more lives than just his own.  In the midst of such a tragedy, we can perhaps be relieved that more lives did not end on this sad day. 

May the Lord have mercy and give strength to all who are impacted by this tragedy.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:05:50 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 02:05:48 PM »

Quote
The title of this post, though, should more accurately say "former novice", since he had not been a resident of the monastery for some time before his tragic demise.

I actually considered that myself but decided to use the words from the article.
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 02:07:41 PM »

Lord Have Mercy, Lord Have Mercy, Lord Have Mercy
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 02:47:42 PM »

It's sounds like this poor soul had some troubles. I pray that the Lord has mercy on His servant Anthony, and grants peace and comfort to his friends, family, and monastic brethren.
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 04:15:17 PM »

Lord have mercy.

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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 04:23:30 PM »

Lord, have mercy !
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 05:00:44 PM »

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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 06:56:26 PM »

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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 09:17:22 PM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 09:32:01 PM »

 Sad

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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 11:01:54 PM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.

In 97 when I visited Mount Athos several monasteries pulled me aside to ask what I knew of Fr. Ephraim. Some even felt like police interrogations. These very traditional monastics were concerned by the young men who were showing up from America who had been influenced by the Ephraimite Monasteries. At least three different monasteries on Mount Athos told me to stay away from his monasteries in America because they were not healthy.

I think at lot has changed in 15 years and there are good places and bad places. Not every monk is a holy elder, monks are trying to struggle with their own salvation just like you and I and fail just like we do.
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 11:16:11 PM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.

In 97 when I visited Mount Athos several monasteries pulled me aside to ask what I knew of Fr. Ephraim. Some even felt like police interrogations. These very traditional monastics were concerned by the young men who were showing up from America who had been influenced by the Ephraimite Monasteries. At least three different monasteries on Mount Athos told me to stay away from his monasteries in America because they were not healthy.

I think at lot has changed in 15 years and there are good places and bad places. Not every monk is a holy elder, monks are trying to struggle with their own salvation just like you and I and fail just like we do.

What aspects of Elder Ephraim's practice were the Athonites you spoke with particularly concerned about?
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 11:36:03 PM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.

In 97 when I visited Mount Athos several monasteries pulled me aside to ask what I knew of Fr. Ephraim. Some even felt like police interrogations. These very traditional monastics were concerned by the young men who were showing up from America who had been influenced by the Ephraimite Monasteries. At least three different monasteries on Mount Athos told me to stay away from his monasteries in America because they were not healthy.

I think at lot has changed in 15 years and there are good places and bad places. Not every monk is a holy elder, monks are trying to struggle with their own salvation just like you and I and fail just like we do.

When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual excercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 11:48:07 PM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice. If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 11:56:50 PM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice. If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.

It wasn't for the Lenten Period it was part of their penance for confession. From what I've seen, it's wrong for anyone to get that personal in confession, the confessor has no business in your sexual activities in marriage.

Besides, we need to look at St Paul who says it is only to be done by consent of both husband and wife and as soon as lustful feelings begin to overtake them, they must cease.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 12:00:30 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 11:57:17 PM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice.
It's also standard teaching and advice to follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul who said only "by agreement". (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:5)

If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
Well, to a certain extent, it may be, if the monk who advised them doesn't know the couple all that well.
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2012, 12:02:22 AM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice.
It's also standard teaching and advice to follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul who said only "by agreement". (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:5)

If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
Well, to a certain extent, it may be, if the monk who advised them doesn't know the couple all that well.

PtA, if you were Orthodox, and married, for as long as I have been, you would not be so presumptuous.  police
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2012, 12:03:52 AM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.

In 97 when I visited Mount Athos several monasteries pulled me aside to ask what I knew of Fr. Ephraim. Some even felt like police interrogations. These very traditional monastics were concerned by the young men who were showing up from America who had been influenced by the Ephraimite Monasteries. At least three different monasteries on Mount Athos told me to stay away from his monasteries in America because they were not healthy.

I think at lot has changed in 15 years and there are good places and bad places. Not every monk is a holy elder, monks are trying to struggle with their own salvation just like you and I and fail just like we do.

What aspects of Elder Ephraim's practice were the Athonites you spoke with particularly concerned about?

Arrogance, heresy (re-baptism) and harsh spiritual direction.
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 12:08:29 AM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice.
It's also standard teaching and advice to follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul who said only "by agreement". (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:5)

If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
Well, to a certain extent, it may be, if the monk who advised them doesn't know the couple all that well.

PtA, if you were Orthodox, and married, for as long as I have been, you would not be so presumptuous.  police
If only I were being presumptuous, but since I didn't speak any certainties but only said "may be" and "if", I don't think I am being presumptuous.
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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 12:14:19 AM »

Then your post was practically meaningless. I do have a healthy concept of economia, but I've also been around in the Orthodox world for far longer than you have.  police
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 12:21:02 AM »

I saw a news broad cast on youtube about this monastery, where Orthodox families were worried about their sons' lives because of abuse or something, ill see if i can find it. Either way, Lord, have mercy!

My friend has visited there, and is there again. Trust me, that interview is full of crap. Elder Ephraim is a great man, and I find it disgusting that the people in that news broadcast lie like that. Those that don't lie just don't understand what it takes to be a monk.
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2012, 12:21:02 AM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice.
It's also standard teaching and advice to follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul who said only "by agreement". (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:5)

If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
Well, to a certain extent, it may be, if the monk who advised them doesn't know the couple all that well.

What you are doing is making excuses for people. Keeping clear of sex is part of fasting.
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2012, 12:24:29 AM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice.
It's also standard teaching and advice to follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul who said only "by agreement". (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:5)

If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.
Well, to a certain extent, it may be, if the monk who advised them doesn't know the couple all that well.

What you are doing is making excuses for people. Keeping clear of sex is part of fasting.
No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2012, 12:27:25 AM »

I saw a news broad cast on youtube about this monastery, where Orthodox families were worried about their sons' lives because of abuse or something, ill see if i can find it. Either way, Lord, have mercy!

My friend has visited there, and is there again. Trust me, that interview is full of crap. Elder Ephraim is a great man, and I find it disgusting that the people in that news broadcast lie like that. Those that don't lie just don't understand what it takes to be a monk.

I've been to St. Anthony's many times.  I have also gone to confession there.  I have never personally experienced excessive penances or despondency while there, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Whatever the truth is let it come to light.  We shouldn't be quick to condemn or defend.  We don't have the facts.  The most important thing we can do right now is pray for the soul of this man.   
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2012, 12:31:00 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2012, 12:32:06 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.
I'm not dismissing anything.
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2012, 12:38:29 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.
I'm not dismissing anything.

Your words:
Quote
No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

Ever the obfuscator. Anything goes, except when it interferes with your own view.  Sad Sad Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2012, 12:41:56 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.
I'm not dismissing anything.

Your words:
Quote
No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

Ever the obfuscator. Anything goes, except when it interferes with your own view.  Sad Sad Roll Eyes
Believe what you want, LBK. It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2012, 12:45:36 AM »

Quote
It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
   
Indeed. I respect the tradition and advice of the Church I belong to.  police
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2012, 12:47:41 AM »

Quote
It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
   
Indeed. I respect the tradition and advice of the Church I belong to.  police
However, what you believe about me is totally wrong, but you don't understand that because you won't listen.
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2012, 12:53:01 AM »

Quote
It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
   
Indeed. I respect the tradition and advice of the Church I belong to.  police
However, what you believe about me is totally wrong, but you don't understand that because you won't listen.

Au contraire. Some things in life take the passage of much time, and, in most cases, effort, to "get". Once you get to my age and life experience, you might begin to understand.   Wink
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2012, 12:53:29 AM »

Oh, this is ridiculous.  Take it to private messages for crying out loud!
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« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2012, 12:57:25 AM »

Quote
It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
   
Indeed. I respect the tradition and advice of the Church I belong to.  police
However, what you believe about me is totally wrong, but you don't understand that because you won't listen.

Au contraire. Some things in life take the passage of much time, and, in most cases, effort, to "get". Once you get to my age and life experience, you might begin to understand.   Wink
And yet you refuse to understand anything I say about myself. That's the issue here.



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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2012, 12:58:32 AM »

Oh, this is ridiculous.
Yes, it is ridiculous, which is why I'm letting LBK have the last word on this.
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« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2012, 01:01:54 AM »

Oh, this is ridiculous.
Yes, it is ridiculous, which is why I'm letting LBK have the last word on this.

Quote
No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about.

Your words, PtA. They speak volumes.

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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2012, 01:17:20 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

You are the only one trying to dismiss anyone else, in this case Peter, by saying "I'm older, I know better."
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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2012, 01:19:04 AM »

No, not making excuses for anyone, especially since I don't make any claims to know what I'm talking about. Just tempering what can be an excessive asceticism by offering some advice from Scripture. Since it appears that St. Paul addressed the relationship between marital relations and fasting, I thought his words pertinent to this discussion.

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

You are the only one trying to dismiss anyone else, in this case Peter, by saying "I'm older, I know better."
Odd that I should have your support, but thank you for understanding, nonetheless. Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2012, 01:30:41 AM »

Quote
... and neither of you (PtA or JamesRottnek) seem to get it.

I grieve over the sad case of the wayward novice, but I make no apologies for what I have written on this thread.
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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2012, 01:34:44 AM »

Quote
... and neither of you (PtA or JamesRottnek) seem to get it.

I grieve over the sad case of the wayward novice, but I make no apologies for what I have written on this thread.
Where did you get that quote? I don't see it anywhere on this thread.
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2012, 01:39:35 AM »

Which quote are you referring to, and what is your point?
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2012, 01:47:06 AM »

Which quote are you referring to, and what is your point?

This quote:
Quote
... and neither of you (PtA or JamesRottnek) seem to get it.

LBK,

I realize that I allowed myself to get into a little bit of a bickering match with you earlier on this thread, and for that I take full responsibility, but now I'm posting more seriously. IF you did in fact create that quote yourself, which I'm not yet presuming to know for certain that you did, I do see it as the height of dishonesty for you to put your words into the mouths of unnamed others to create the appearance that you have others' support for your personal opinions. You can say of me whatever you want. In the end, even though I may defend myself to a certain extent, what you wish to believe about me really doesn't affect me all that much, even if you are wrong. But at least have the decency to take personal responsibility for your opinions and don't make it look as if they're coming from someone else just to give your opinions the illusion of strength. Don't lie to us.
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2012, 01:56:58 AM »

merged into the above post
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2012, 01:57:38 AM »

Formatting error. But I stand by what I wrote in it.
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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2012, 02:34:18 AM »

For the benefit of everyone else, my intent was not to dismiss any ascetic praxis prescribed by the Church (e.g., abstinence from marital relations during seasons of fasting). I honor this praxis and consider it wise, since it has the support of no less than the Apostle Paul (again, referencing the verse from 1 Corinthians 7 that I cited earlier). I just thought it important to offer a biblical counterbalance to what may often be an excessive focus on just one side of the ascetic coin. St. Paul did seem to recognize that couples do well to abstain from marital relations for a time to devote themselves to fasting and prayer, which counsel I understand to be fundamental to the Orthodox praxis of marital abstinence during the lenten seasons. However, the same Apostle Paul said in the same verse that couples are to do this only by mutual consent, lest one should be tempted by his/her weakness to fall into the even graver sin of adultery, which apostolic advice some seem to have forgotten. This is the counterbalance I hoped to offer from the Scriptures.

(FWIW, I also can't help but appreciate the irony that I, a single man who "knows nothing about marriage", should see my opinions dismissed because I have the temerity to offer a counterbalance to the counsel apparently given quite often by monastics, single men who, like me, "know nothing about marriage". laugh)
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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2012, 02:37:13 AM »

Has the Church or any Bishops called for an investigation into some of the claims being made about this place and this Elder Monk that runs it. It's very sad to hear of anyone who has taken their own life and hope that G-d helps heal this family's pain.
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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2012, 04:17:09 AM »

Just to add a little piece to the story, I had heard that he was on some form of drugs and the monks helped get him off of them, and that he may have returned to the drugs upon leaving the monastery.

He also posted this on the Elder Ephraim facebook page:

Quote
I have a new website, www.elderephraimscult.com. We are going to expose this man (Elder Ephraim) as a cult leader, and his monastery as a cult. If you have any experience with him or his monastery, contact me on the website, and I'll add your testimonial to the web page. I'm looking into making t-shirts, stickers, buttons, hats, etc. The cops won't do anything about it, yet, so I'm taking the initiative. If you dislike paedophilia, monks illegally distilling alcohol, moribund satanism, murder, buring people alive, theft, lies, racism, sexism, homophobia, hate-crimes, stupid people, mean people, pharisaism, or just Elder Ephraim in general, then you'll for sure want to help the cause.

As you can see, he also made a website.

As far as St. Anthony's goes, I have been there often, as have many people I know, including the Elder's spiritual children, and I have never heard a word against the monastery from dedicated non-liberal Orthodox Christians. The videos on youtube are ignorant and slanderous. The Antiochian Orthodox "theologian" presented on there is a shame to Orthodoxy for degrading the monastery in his ignorance and calling them "too conservative." He does not understand monasticism, though liberalism seems to be the status quo in the Antiochian jurisdiction.

Quote
Has the Church or any Bishops called for an investigation into some of the claims being made about this place and this Elder Monk that runs it. It's very sad to hear of anyone who has taken their own life and hope that G-d helps heal this family's pain.
His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco has been there many times at the provocation of the more liberal members of the Church and has never had anything negative to report.
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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2012, 04:45:30 AM »

Saint Anthony intercede for us


After reading jah777's post of details, I think the saint DID exactly that.
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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2012, 07:28:29 AM »

Lord Have Mercy!

I know two people who went down there for a visit a few months ago and they loved it. I don't understand what people's problem is. Do these people not understand what monasteries are about?

The families need to learn that if their children become monks, they must forsake all worldly things, including (in a way) family. If we even look at Mount Athos and other monasteries, the monks don't even leave if they get word that a family member is dying.

As for how much all of it costs (relating to that video), why does that even matter at all? Couldn't some of the money be coming from the Greek state?

Leave it to American news media to hype up and screw up a news investigation about a holy monastery that promotes rejection of worldly things...

There are traditionally-minded people who have concerns about St. Anthony's Monastery and Fr. Ephraim. It's not just liberal people who don't "get" monasticism.  You say you know two people who loved it there; I know several people who loved it, and several people who thought it was a cult. All are committed Orthodox Christians.

Father,

Can you comment further on what you have written? Is there anything specific about the Monastery that you can say?
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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2012, 07:38:59 AM »

Just to add a little piece to the story, I had heard that he was on some form of drugs and the monks helped get him off of them, and that he may have returned to the drugs upon leaving the monastery.

He also posted this on the Elder Ephraim facebook page:

Quote
I have a new website, www.elderephraimscult.com. We are going to expose this man (Elder Ephraim) as a cult leader, and his monastery as a cult. If you have any experience with him or his monastery, contact me on the website, and I'll add your testimonial to the web page. I'm looking into making t-shirts, stickers, buttons, hats, etc. The cops won't do anything about it, yet, so I'm taking the initiative. If you dislike paedophilia, monks illegally distilling alcohol, moribund satanism, murder, buring people alive, theft, lies, racism, sexism, homophobia, hate-crimes, stupid people, mean people, pharisaism, or just Elder Ephraim in general, then you'll for sure want to help the cause.

As you can see, he also made a website.

As far as St. Anthony's goes, I have been there often, as have many people I know, including the Elder's spiritual children, and I have never heard a word against the monastery from dedicated non-liberal Orthodox Christians. The videos on youtube are ignorant and slanderous. The Antiochian Orthodox "theologian" presented on there is a shame to Orthodoxy for degrading the monastery in his ignorance and calling them "too conservative." He does not understand monasticism, though liberalism seems to be the status quo in the Antiochian jurisdiction.

Agreed, and the man with the website is insane...I mean murder, buring people alive, and hate-crimes? The reports never even mentioned that.

Then he ran out of things toward the end of his ramble: "...stupid people, mean people..." LOL

And Illegally distilling alcohol? *gasp* WHAT A HORRIBLE CRIME!  Wink

I can't believe some people (especially Orthodox) are buying into this.
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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2012, 07:44:29 AM »

Looking around for more information on this and I came across this site....

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/27554-st-anthonys-greek-orthodox-monastery-now-im-on-psych-meds/
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2012, 10:18:18 AM »

In 97 when I visited Mount Athos several monasteries pulled me aside to ask what I knew of Fr. Ephraim. Some even felt like police interrogations. These very traditional monastics were concerned by the young men who were showing up from America who had been influenced by the Ephraimite Monasteries. At least three different monasteries on Mount Athos told me to stay away from his monasteries in America because they were not healthy.

That is interesting, as it runs counter to all I have heard from others who have visited monasteries on Mt. Athos, the Holy Land, etc.  Elder Ephraim is still the spiritual father of 5 monasteries on Mt. Athos (and some monasteries in Greece), and monks from Athos and elsewhere regularly come to the monastery in Arizona seeking guidance from him.  A few years ago a friend of mine visited monasteries on Mt. Athos and in the Holy Land and he was constantly asked by monks in these places whether he had visited the monastery in Arizona or knew Elder Ephraim.  Everyone he encountered spoke with great esteem about the Elder and the monasteries he has established.

The greatly esteemed and eminent author Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos, who himself spent some years as a monk on Mt. Athos and is well acquainted with the Fathers and with Athonite life, wrote the following in the Prologue to Elder Ephraim’s “Counsels from the Holy Mountain”:

Quote
“Later I met [Elder Ephraim] again on the Holy Mountain when he was
the abbot of the Holy Monastery of Philotheou.  I visited him with a
group of young people, and again I experienced the same sensation.
His words were very compunctious, sweet, penetrating, revealing,
clairvoyant, renewing, healing, and extracted from patristic wisdom.
He was exactly the same person whom one meets in the book Counsels
from the Holy Mountain, for it contains words full of grace, words of
a spiritual father to his spiritual children….

“Father Ephraim, as I remember him very well from my youth and as one
encounters him in this book, is a genuine teacher of the spiritual
life and a reliable guide for the Christian’s journey towards rebirth,
since he himself has experienced and learned the divine, which is why
his words are ‘full of grace and truth.’  And in this case the saying
of St. John of Sinai, the author of the Ladder, applies: ‘A genuine
teacher is he who has received the spiritual tablet of knowledge from
God inscribed by His finger – that is, by the operation of
illumination – and who has no need of other books.’”

[SNIP]

“It is significant that the spiritual words contained in this book,
which emanate from the vigils and stillness of the Holy Mountain, are
presented to America where, on the one hand, a great disillusionment
with the rationalistic and sensualistic atmosphere prevails, and on
the other hand, a search for authentic life is being observed – a
search that extends beyond Vaticanized ecclesiology, academic and
intellectualistic theology, Protestantizing sociology and ethicology,
spiritually void and deluded meditation, atheistic social activism,
etc.  And I believe that this book will be of great help to those who
seek to taste in their personal life – in proportion to their
struggle, of course – the true scriptural and patristic food that
gives meaning to the life of man and constitutes the true bread of
life.

“Papa-Ephraim (as we call him here in Greece), in the words of St.
Symeon the New Theologian, ‘received fire,’ and he has imparted this
fire to many monks of the Holy Mountain and in turn to the Church in
America that has great need of it.  Now, with the English edition of
this book, he will spread this fire to all who seek genuine Orthodox
life.”

Constantine Cavarnos, one of the most significant traditional Orthodox authors who have lived in this country, a frequenter of Mt. Athos, and a man who had the blessing to be acquainted with many of the holy elders of the 20th century, both in Greece and on Mt. Athos, chose to live out the last years of his earthly life as a monk at St. Anthony’s of all places:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/constantine-cavarnos-schemamonk-and.html

Fr. Theodore Zisis, Patristics Professor of the University of Thessaloniki visited the monastery in Arizona as well and spoke very highly of his experience there:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/fr-theodore-zisis-orthodoxy-in-america.html

Here is an account of a profitable pilgrimage to the Arizona monastery by a pilgrim from Greece, which is representative of the accounts I have heard from others who have visited:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/07/greek-pilgrim-visits-st-anthonys.html

Over the years I (as a married man and father) have visited and confessed at several monasteries under Elder Ephraim and have been very blessed by my experiences with them.  I consider them to be great havens and a blessing for Orthodoxy in this country.  I have known others who have lived as monks at St. Anthony’s before going to other monasteries, and who were novices there for a time and then left, but all of these whom I have known hold St. Anthony’s and the Elder in the highest regard.  Some people I have known, while expressing great esteem and reverence for St. Anthony’s and the Elder, do criticize some of the lay people who frequent the monasteries as being overly cultish and fanatical.  A lot of the concern that has been expressed regarding the monasteries results not from Elder Ephraim or the monks themselves, but from overzealous, groupie types among the laity who think their association with such a traditional expression of Orthodoxy, or their association with Elder Ephraim, gives them the license to go around denouncing their clergy and fellow laity while proclaiming Elder Ephraim as a “living saint”.  This kind of behavior is regularly criticized and spoken against by the monasteries, but people do not listen and so proceed with their very embarrassing behavior.  Having witnessed such foolish behavior myself, I am then not surprised when people who have no personal experience of the monasteries think that they are cults based on the obnoxious and misguided words and behavior of some of the laity who claim association with the monasteries.

Aside from those who criticize the monasteries because of the foolish words and conduct of overzealous and misguided laity who appoint themselves as representatives of the monasteries, the other criticisms typically come from those who do not understand Orthodox monasticism.  From such people, as they elaborate on their objections to Elder Ephraim and his monasteries, it becomes clear that it is traditional Orthodoxy in general, and traditional Orthodox monasticism in particularly, that they fiercely oppose. 

The only critics of the monasteries that I have known who would identify themselves as “traditional Orthodox” are Old Calendarists who believe that Elder Ephraim is wrong because he is on the New Calendar and under Patriarch Bartholomew whom they consider a heretic.  The Old Calendarists believe that faithfulness to Orthodox tradition requires that you break communion with all of the Orthodox patriarchates who have either adopted the New Calendar or are in communion with those who use the New Calendar.  Since the monasteries are very traditional and yet do not support the creation of schisms in the name of Holy Tradition, many Old Calendarists see the monasteries as their enemies, or at least competitors for the souls of those who have a great love for Holy Tradition.  I have unfortunately seen some Old Calendarists spread erroneous information about supposed “false prophecies” of Elder Ephraim with the hope of tarnishing his reputation, having no interest in trying to verify whether such “false prophecies” were ever uttered by him.

Sadly, I have also seen that some monastics and abbots of other monasteries resent the fact that Elder Ephraim has been able to establish so many monasteries here and attract so many to monasticism in such a brief period of time.  Monastics are people too, and when one labors for decades to establish one monastery, barely attracts a handful of monks, and struggles to keep the few monks fed; it is unfortunate but understandable that some jealousy can result when a monk from another land appears and quickly establishes 17 lively monasteries, some having 20-50 monks in residence, many of which are constantly building and never seem to run out of money.

Regarding Fr. Ephraim himself, I have never met him, but those who have known him over the years tell me that he is like a little child, very humble and unassuming. 

So, for what it is worth, this is what I know from my own experience and from those who I have known who are experienced with the monasteries and with Elder Ephraim.  If others have more direct or extensive experience with St. Anthony’s or other monasteries, I would be interested in what they have to say.  Unfortunately, this is a subject where hearsay, speculation, and misinformation tend to dominate.
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 10:52:50 AM »

The reality of this is that Athonite monasticism is not a regimen easily entered into and it is simply not for every soul seeking peace or something other than the materialistic lifestyle most of us live in the world.  It is far easier to blame the physician rather than accept the fragility of the body - the same is true of the soul.Hence the criticism of the monks.

Perhaps if there is fault with the monks it may be that they are not as discerning about American 'wanderers' seeking spiritual comfort as they might be. Maybe this will come in time. Likewise, fault lies with many who think that by finding an Elder or spiritual father that they can transform themselves 'magically' without any real change or true effort on their part.

In any event, the life of the poor man who took his life does indeed seem to have been a difficult one with many troubles and issues. Let us pray that God have mercy on his soul and that his family may find some way to find peace and reconciliation.
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 11:35:00 AM »

This may be a surprise to some but this happens at Mt Athos too. I visited there four weeks ago, at a skete, and a monk brought up how a number of people have committed suicide near to where we were.

This is the reality. People who are psychologically or spiritually very sick, or delusional, are unable to cope. They go to a monastery or places like Mt Athos and they are often turned back. Other times they are allowed to stay maybe because the elders see the possibility of them being saved. If you read some of the books about the elders of Mt Athos you will find plenty of examples.

When this tragedy occurs in a country like Greece which a primarily/traditionally Orthodox country, it does not make the headlines it does in a secular, consumerist country like America. To the west, Orthodox spirituality & asceticism is madness, a cult (see my previous post with link).

May the Lord have mercy on all those who have taken their lives.

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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »


Regarding Fr. Ephraim himself, I have never met him, but those who have known him over the years tell me that he is like a little child, very humble and unassuming. 


I've not met him either but I have watched a video of him. He does seem like a child. Even his speech is more akin to a child than a grown man. The thought of this man doing some of the things attributed to him... I cannot picture or believe it.
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 12:24:58 PM »

Quote
It seems you'd rather do that than actually listen to anything I have to say in my defense.
   
Indeed. I respect the tradition and advice of the Church I belong to.  police
However, what you believe about me is totally wrong, but you don't understand that because you won't listen.

Au contraire. Some things in life take the passage of much time, and, in most cases, effort, to "get". Once you get to my age and life experience, you might begin to understand.   Wink

I think what you may be overlooking, is that while it is a part of fasting and part of life in the Church, it cannot and should not be a part of someone's penance which they are bound to. Fasting from sex has to be a mutual agreement between husband and wife and has to stop when either of the two experiences unhealthy lustful temptations. If a couple is having trouble in their marriage, they need to go to a confessor who is married or who was married for a long time, not to a monastic who hasn't experienced the asceticism of marriage.
These monks and nuns are holy people, but they are still human and their knowledge is specialized towards monasticism, not towards marriage.

Case in point, I know a good man who became a Priest and who's Bishop forced him to move away from home and directly led to him being separated from his wife and kids who had to stay behind. He had to live like this for a year or two, and this made things hard on his family. His Bishop had never been married and didn't understand that you can never separate the two for long periods like that. When that young man grew up and after his wife passed on, he promised to never put a married couple through that.

The monastics know the spiritual life very well, and they know separation from the world and worldly things. That is their asceticism, their expertise, but they are still limited and usually dont understand life in the world or married life.
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2012, 01:58:16 PM »

Another impasse at Conjecture Junction.  "I have a friend who.... ergo I know what I'm talking about and it's 100% true."

Regarding Fr. Ephraim and his practices: There are so many things we don't know, so much that has been left out, that it's impossible to make an accurate verdict.  There are those who have bad experiences, but then there are those who have had wonderful experiences.  Why don't we suspend judgement until we all can visit St. Antony's?  All we know is that a young man has committed suicide and his family needs our prayers.   Undecided
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2012, 02:08:28 PM »

A side but related question: If I visit a monastery to get some spiritual advice from an elder whom I haven't met before, am I thereby obligated to put into practice whatever advice he gives me?
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »

^^
Here is the youtube video that I was referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rw8SDZVsbc&feature=related

Modified to comply with rule regarding naked links. Priolo--please acquaint yourself with the rules ASAP. Thanks, Second Chance

What a hack job !    Pffft..
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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2012, 02:34:17 PM »

^^
Here is the youtube video that I was referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rw8SDZVsbc&feature=related

Modified to comply with rule regarding naked links. Priolo--please acquaint yourself with the rules ASAP. Thanks, Second Chance

What a hack job !    Pffft..
The video, or what Second Chance did to clothe the naked link? Would you please make clear what you're criticizing here? Thank you.
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2012, 02:50:32 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

I don't know what you mean by a worldly ascetic, unless you mean a person who can't achieve the spiritual heights that  an ascetic can reach, and rather than admitting it to himself and giving credit where credit is due, wants to rationalize away his own spiritual limitations.  Don't, we're all sinners.  God did not call everyone to sanctity. 

As for monasteries, they follow the canons of the Orthodox Church, and if these Orthodox rules causes marital problems, then they should pray that someday they will acquire the spiritual growth required to be a 'true Orthodox', not just a traditional Orthodox  who is Orthodox in name and appearance only.

It behooves me how so many people who are against the Orthodox canons, are at the same time critical of Protestant faiths who do not have those canons...I really wish they'd make up their minds.  Huh
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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2012, 02:51:57 PM »

A side but related question: If I visit a monastery to get some spiritual advice from an elder whom I haven't met before, am I thereby obligated to put into practice whatever advice he gives me?

No! Wink
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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2012, 03:04:57 PM »

I can imagine how grieved Elder Ephraim and the other monks must be that they couldn't save this young man's soul.  The man was obviously possessed and there was no way the Elder could free him from the entity that he  'willingly'  subjected himself to.   Their prayers though did protect the monks from the harm he, (or the demon inside of him),  was ready to inflict on them.   Cry
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2012, 03:11:57 PM »

Quote
I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

If the advice was for the couples to refrain from marital relations during lenten periods, what's the hassle in that? This is standard Orthodox teaching and advice. If certain Orthodox couples couldn't handle such advice, then it's not the fault of him who advised them.

It wasn't for the Lenten Period it was part of their penance for confession. From what I've seen, it's wrong for anyone to get that personal in confession, the confessor has no business in your sexual activities in marriage.

Besides, we need to look at St Paul who says it is only to be done by consent of both husband and wife and as soon as lustful feelings begin to overtake them, they must cease.

I am sure someone can find tha famous quote from the EP saying that they don't interfer in such matters like marital relations.
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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2012, 03:18:27 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

I don't know what you mean by a worldly ascetic, unless you mean a person who can't achieve the spiritual heights that  an ascetic can reach, and rather than admitting it to himself and giving credit where credit is due, wants to rationalize away his own spiritual limitations.  Don't, we're all sinners.  God did not call everyone to sanctity. 

As for monasteries, they follow the canons of the Orthodox Church, and if these Orthodox rules causes marital problems, then they should pray that someday they will acquire the spiritual growth required to be a 'true Orthodox', not just a traditional Orthodox  who is Orthodox in name and appearance only.

It behooves me how so many people who are against the Orthodox canons, are at the same time critical of Protestant faiths who do not have those canons...I really wish they'd make up their minds.  Huh

Zenovia, there are two kinds of asceticism. There is the ascetism of marriage and the asceticism of monasticism. Those of us who are called to the married life have to live in the world. Those of us living in the world are called to asceticism, but it is much different than the asceticism that monastics are called to. Monastics are called to avoid the world and separate themselves from it totally, whereas we have to live within it without being of it.
For example: monastics are called to worship multiple times of day and exercise themselves in intense spiritual discipline, including active prayer. We, however, cannot attend church as often as monastics and the kind of prayer we offer to God is different than monastics.

Monasticism is not higher than marriage, and marriage is not higher than monasticism. Simply put, the two are two different roads to the same goal. We shouldn't be arrogant and think that monastics are lesser than us because they don't live in the world, yet monastics also shouldnt be arrogant and think married people and chaste people living in the world are less than monastics because they live in the world...

Most importantly, we cannot hold one group to the same standards as the others. Just because an elderly couple doesn't exhibit clairvoyance, bilocation or other spiritual gifts doesn't mean they should be regarded as less ascetic than the monks.

Remember that monasticism didn't exist in Christianity for over 200 years until St Anthony fled the city for the desert. Prior to that, all Christians lived in the cities, in the world, working side by side with the pagans and participating in everyday life (so much as our faith allowed). In fact, St Peter himself was married. Yet we don't see any of them locking themselves away in their cells and forming monastic communities. But that certainly doesn't mean thu weren't practicing asceticism...

You must lead that the path we follow and the path monastics follow are two paths to Christ. Both are equally valid and holy. Yet because we are human beings, we shouldn't pretend to be experts in the lives of the others and we shouldn't pretend our advice to the others is the best advice they can receive. If you are a monastic and want advice for your monastic lifestyle, you will naturally need to seek a monastic rather than a married Priest. Same for the opposite, if you're married, you will seek advice from a married Priest rather than a monastic who has never been married.

We shouldnt make the mistake of confusing the two paths or falling into arrogance and begin assuming one path is more "holy" than the other.
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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2012, 03:23:48 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

I don't know what you mean by a worldly ascetic, unless you mean a person who can't achieve the spiritual heights that  an ascetic can reach, and rather than admitting it to himself and giving credit where credit is due, wants to rationalize away his own spiritual limitations.  Don't, we're all sinners.  God did not call everyone to sanctity. 

As for monasteries, they follow the canons of the Orthodox Church, and if these Orthodox rules causes marital problems, then they should pray that someday they will acquire the spiritual growth required to be a 'true Orthodox', not just a traditional Orthodox  who is Orthodox in name and appearance only.

It behooves me how so many people who are against the Orthodox canons, are at the same time critical of Protestant faiths who do not have those canons...I really wish they'd make up their minds.  Huh

Zenovia, there are two kinds of asceticism. There is the ascetism of marriage and the asceticism of monasticism. Those of us who are called to the married life have to live in the world. Those of us living in the world are called to asceticism, but it is much different than the asceticism that monastics are called to. Monastics are called to avoid the world and separate themselves from it totally, whereas we have to live within it without being of it.
For example: monastics are called to worship multiple times of day and exercise themselves in intense spiritual discipline, including active prayer. We, however, cannot attend church as often as monastics and the kind of prayer we offer to God is different than monastics.

Monasticism is not higher than marriage, and marriage is not higher than monasticism. Simply put, the two are two different roads to the same goal. We shouldn't be arrogant and think that monastics are lesser than us because they don't live in the world, yet monastics also shouldnt be arrogant and think married people and chaste people living in the world are less than monastics because they live in the world...

Most importantly, we cannot hold one group to the same standards as the others. Just because an elderly couple doesn't exhibit clairvoyance, bilocation or other spiritual gifts doesn't mean they should be regarded as less ascetic than the monks.

Remember that monasticism didn't exist in Christianity for over 200 years until St Anthony fled the city for the desert. Prior to that, all Christians lived in the cities, in the world, working side by side with the pagans and participating in everyday life (so much as our faith allowed). In fact, St Peter himself was married. Yet we don't see any of them locking themselves away in their cells and forming monastic communities. But that certainly doesn't mean thu weren't practicing asceticism...

You must lead that the path we follow and the path monastics follow are two paths to Christ. Both are equally valid and holy. Yet because we are human beings, we shouldn't pretend to be experts in the lives of the others and we shouldn't pretend our advice to the others is the best advice they can receive. If you are a monastic and want advice for your monastic lifestyle, you will naturally need to seek a monastic rather than a married Priest. Same for the opposite, if you're married, you will seek advice from a married Priest rather than a monastic who has never been married.

We shouldnt make the mistake of confusing the two paths or falling into arrogance and begin assuming one path is more "holy" than the other.

Great post. Thank you!
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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2012, 03:31:02 PM »


Regarding Fr. Ephraim himself, I have never met him, but those who have known him over the years tell me that he is like a little child, very humble and unassuming. 


I've not met him either but I have watched a video of him. He does seem like a child. Even his speech is more akin to a child than a grown man. The thought of this man doing some of the things attributed to him... I cannot picture or believe it.

I suggest you read the book on Saint Nektarios by Chondropoulos: The Saint of our Times or Saint of Our Century.  Saint Nektarios suffered the worse calumny throughout his life as do all saints.   God allows it so as to humble their pride and thereby help them grow in Grace.   Because saints have always been calumniated, I have no doubt this is why  the Catholic Church ignored  the accusations towards its priests. 

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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2012, 03:43:18 PM »

One of the problems of us converts that I've found (myself included) is that our initial fire and zeal often leads to a fascination with the spiritual life, which is wonderful, but many of us take it to far and begin automatically assuming we should become monastics, no matter how sure we were before of our desire for the married life. We fall in love with and take the call for unceasing prayer very literally and purchase 100 knot prayer ropes and trying to emulate the monastics...

Then once the honeymoon is over and we cool down, we can finally become serious without a mind clouded by wonder, amazement and zeal. We begin to learn that both paths are venerable and that monasticism isn't for everyone just as marriage isn't for everyone. We can choose to continue our journey towards monasticism or continue in our search for the ascetic married life.

But we begin learning that active, constant prayer doesn't always mean thumbing the prayer rope constantly. Prayer takes many more forms than just speaking to God. We should attend church, but only as often as possible.

The initial fire for Orthodoxy is good, but we have to come back down to earth and more seriously direct ourselves to our spiritual lives without jumping headlong into something we don't yet understand.

The ascetic life in monasticism is wonderful and the idea is indeed romantic, but we cannot forget that the married life is equally wonderful and equally holy, even though it's a different path.
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2012, 03:50:21 PM »

A side but related question: If I visit a monastery to get some spiritual advice from an elder whom I haven't met before, am I thereby obligated to put into practice whatever advice he gives me?

No. And if you ask him, he'll tell you the same, if he's good. Elder Porphyrios, a man of great sanctity the like of which is only rarely seen, never made demands or placed burdens on people. If people came to him for help, he helped them. Sometimes, the decided not to take his advice, and things didn't go well, but that's because his advice was good, not some sort of divine retribution.
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2012, 04:15:56 PM »

Saint Nektarios suffered the worse calumny throughout his life as do all saints.

Not all. There were no calumny against Saints like St. Vladimir who was a Duke, or St. Sophie of Slutsk who was a noble. Many of the Saints were considered to be gifted during their lives so they also didn't suffer the calumny.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2012, 04:18:53 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

I don't know what you mean by a worldly ascetic, unless you mean a person who can't achieve the spiritual heights that  an ascetic can reach, and rather than admitting it to himself and giving credit where credit is due, wants to rationalize away his own spiritual limitations.  Don't, we're all sinners.  God did not call everyone to sanctity.
BULLS**T! Angry We're all called to sanctity.
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2012, 04:23:08 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

I don't know what you mean by a worldly ascetic, unless you mean a person who can't achieve the spiritual heights that  an ascetic can reach, and rather than admitting it to himself and giving credit where credit is due, wants to rationalize away his own spiritual limitations.  Don't, we're all sinners.  God did not call everyone to sanctity. 

As for monasteries, they follow the canons of the Orthodox Church, and if these Orthodox rules causes marital problems, then they should pray that someday they will acquire the spiritual growth required to be a 'true Orthodox', not just a traditional Orthodox  who is Orthodox in name and appearance only.

It behooves me how so many people who are against the Orthodox canons, are at the same time critical of Protestant faiths who do not have those canons...I really wish they'd make up their minds.  Huh

Zenovia, there are two kinds of asceticism. There is the ascetism of marriage and the asceticism of monasticism. Those of us who are called to the married life have to live in the world. Those of us living in the world are called to asceticism, but it is much different than the asceticism that monastics are called to. Monastics are called to avoid the world and separate themselves from it totally, whereas we have to live within it without being of it.
For example: monastics are called to worship multiple times of day and exercise themselves in intense spiritual discipline, including active prayer. We, however, cannot attend church as often as monastics and the kind of prayer we offer to God is different than monastics.

Monasticism is not higher than marriage, and marriage is not higher than monasticism. Simply put, the two are two different roads to the same goal. We shouldn't be arrogant and think that monastics are lesser than us because they don't live in the world, yet monastics also shouldnt be arrogant and think married people and chaste people living in the world are less than monastics because they live in the world...

Most importantly, we cannot hold one group to the same standards as the others. Just because an elderly couple doesn't exhibit clairvoyance, bilocation or other spiritual gifts doesn't mean they should be regarded as less ascetic than the monks.

Remember that monasticism didn't exist in Christianity for over 200 years until St Anthony fled the city for the desert. Prior to that, all Christians lived in the cities, in the world, working side by side with the pagans and participating in everyday life (so much as our faith allowed). In fact, St Peter himself was married. Yet we don't see any of them locking themselves away in their cells and forming monastic communities. But that certainly doesn't mean thu weren't practicing asceticism...

You must lead that the path we follow and the path monastics follow are two paths to Christ. Both are equally valid and holy. Yet because we are human beings, we shouldn't pretend to be experts in the lives of the others and we shouldn't pretend our advice to the others is the best advice they can receive. If you are a monastic and want advice for your monastic lifestyle, you will naturally need to seek a monastic rather than a married Priest. Same for the opposite, if you're married, you will seek advice from a married Priest rather than a monastic who has never been married.

We shouldnt make the mistake of confusing the two paths or falling into arrogance and begin assuming one path is more "holy" than the other.

Actually I was referring to the comment about married people being told to refrain from being  together for certain lengths of time.  That has to do with fasting and it is a canon.  It is true though that the monastic can't understand a person's secular existence and the problems that exist within it.  Human beings what they are, and this includes those in a higher spiritual existence such as a monastic elder, can only understand the world from their own experiences and through their own 'cultural' eyes.   

One thing I have to disagree with you though is when you say one is not more holy than the other, since the sacrifices of a monastic have to be greater than that of a married priest.  Yet, the Grace God gives them does comfort them so  what might be  impossible in  others,  is possible with monks.   This does not mean a married person cannot achieve sanctity.  Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state. 

Usually the growth towards sanctity starts  after the death of a spouse; such as Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg, or Saint Elizabeth the Kind of Russia.   Saint John of Kronstadt was married but they lived as brother and sister, much to the chagrin of her father.   If we deny this as a fact, then wouldn't we be denying that which God Himself is showing us through the miracles these saints are able to perform?   
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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2012, 04:24:46 PM »

One thing I have to disagree with you though is when you say one is not more holy than the other, since the sacrifices of a monastic have to be greater than that of a married priest.  Yet, the Grace God gives them does comfort them so  what might be  impossible in  others,  is possible with monks.   This does not mean a married person cannot achieve sanctity.  Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.

This is so wrong.
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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2012, 04:25:11 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  
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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2012, 04:34:46 PM »

One of the problems of us converts that I've found (myself included) is that our initial fire and zeal often leads to a fascination with the spiritual life, which is wonderful, but many of us take it to far and begin automatically assuming we should become monastics, no matter how sure we were before of our desire for the married life. We fall in love with and take the call for unceasing prayer very literally and purchase 100 knot prayer ropes and trying to emulate the monastics...

Then once the honeymoon is over and we cool down, we can finally become serious without a mind clouded by wonder, amazement and zeal. We begin to learn that both paths are venerable and that monasticism isn't for everyone just as marriage isn't for everyone. We can choose to continue our journey towards monasticism or continue in our search for the ascetic married life.

But we begin learning that active, constant prayer doesn't always mean thumbing the prayer rope constantly. Prayer takes many more forms than just speaking to God. We should attend church, but only as often as possible.

The initial fire for Orthodoxy is good, but we have to come back down to earth and more seriously direct ourselves to our spiritual lives without jumping headlong into something we don't yet understand.

The ascetic life in monasticism is wonderful and the idea is indeed romantic, but we cannot forget that the married life is equally wonderful and equally holy, even though it's a different path.

You say things beautifully.  Either way can lead to a purification of ones heart through God's Grace.  It's the intent that matters.  I will warn you though that the suffering in being married might be greater since God's demands might include those you love, and that's lot more painful than when those demands are made only on yourself.  angel   
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2012, 04:36:02 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh
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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2012, 04:38:10 PM »

^^
Here is the youtube video that I was referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rw8SDZVsbc&feature=related

Modified to comply with rule regarding naked links. Priolo--please acquaint yourself with the rules ASAP. Thanks, Second Chance

What a hack job !    Pffft..
The video, or what Second Chance did to clothe the naked link? Would you please make clear what you're criticizing here? Thank you.

The TV report ..  Especially how at the end they tossed a grenade about antisemitism when nothing in the report was about that. Just a little eyebrow raiser for good measure??  It was poorly done IMHO
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2012, 04:43:20 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

When did he ever say that?
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »

One thing I have to disagree with you though is when you say one is not more holy than the other, since the sacrifices of a monastic have to be greater than that of a married priest.  Yet, the Grace God gives them does comfort them so  what might be  impossible in  others,  is possible with monks.   This does not mean a married person cannot achieve sanctity.  Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.

This is so wrong.

It might appear  wrong to you, but God has shown us otherwise and many times through the special charisms He gives His Saints.

Okay let's get something clear, a saint in the Protestant Churches is anyone that is within God's Grace and has acquired the Holy Spirit within them, but that is not so in the Apostolic Churches.  In the Apostolic Churches a Saint implies someone that is in a higher state of existance while still in this world.  Anyway this is what I've gathered from the books I've read on the lives of the saints...both Orthodox books and Catholic books.

But even among saints, (or blesseds), there seems to be lesser ones and greater ones.  Isn't there supposed to be seven heavens...and I'm not talking about Buddhism.  Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2012, 04:53:52 PM »

Quote
Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.  

This is nonsense. Many saints were married throughout their whole life.

And another thing:
Quote
24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:56:24 PM by Ansgar » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2012, 04:55:29 PM »

In the Apostolic Churches a Saint implies someone that is in a higher state of existance while still in this world.  

Wrong. Sainthood does not concern earthly living. The Saints are those, who achieved salvation.

Quote
But even among saints, (or blesseds), there seems to be lesser ones and greater ones.

So Roman Catholic.

That is not the Orthodox position.
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2012, 05:18:38 PM »

Saint Nektarios suffered the worse calumny throughout his life as do all saints.

Not all. There were no calumny against Saints like St. Vladimir who was a Duke, or St. Sophie of Slutsk who was a noble. Many of the Saints were considered to be gifted during their lives so they also didn't suffer the calumny.

I don't doubt there might have been exceptions, though most of the calumny  a saint suffered would be unknown by their biographers.  Very little is known about a saint's personal life and what they went through because humility is a perquisite of sanctity.  All saints consider themselves the most sinful of men and constantly pray for God's forgiveness.

When I started to read on the lives of the saints, I could only find books on Catholic saints.  Because of the charisms given to them, the priests assumed they were saints and had them keep a diary of their thoughts and experiences  under the order of 'obedience'.  Also these saints were more modern so more was known about them... not to mention that the Italians also seemed to be sticklers about keeping records of things...unlike the Greeks.

Today in the Orthodox Church we have the excellent book by Chondropoulos on Saint Nektarios:  A Saint of Our Times or a Saint of Our Century and also the Russian Saint Luke the Surgeon, and the compilation of stories about Father Arseny who spent thirty years in the Gulag.   Sad
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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2012, 05:35:20 PM »

This is what is called 'deja vu all over again' in the States (a famous American malapropism FYI). We just had this same discussion last month about marriage and sanctity. Nothing new here.
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« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2012, 05:43:08 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

 Roll Eyes

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« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2012, 05:53:42 PM »

In the Apostolic Churches a Saint implies someone that is in a higher state of existence while still in this world.  

Wrong. Sainthood does not concern earthly living. The Saints are those, who achieved salvation.

Quote
But even among saints, (or blesseds), there seems to be lesser ones and greater ones.

So Roman Catholic.

That is not the Orthodox position.

Didn't Saint Paul mention something about a 'third' heaven?  Huh

Anyway I'm speaking about my own personal experiences, as well as the lives of certain people in the Orthodox Church that are assumed to be saints, but are not given as many charisms after their death as  saints such as Saint Nektarios.  As soon as Saint Nektarios died, and the clothes he was wearing was placed on the bed next to him, the sick man on the bed was able to get up and walk.   Also there was a beautiful scent  permeating the air.  The miracles were so abundant, that he was proclaimed a saint within twenty five years, something that is almost unheard of.  In saints such as the Greek Saint Demetrios the New Martyr, and the Russian Saint Elizabeth the Kind, in addition to the scents, myrhh has been known to stream from the caskets.  

I can only deduce from these miraculous gifts given to certain saints by God after their death, that they are  in a higher position than others.  Of course there might be other reasons for God giving them these special gifts, such as people being able to relate to them and their sacrifices more so than other saints, some of which might  only have a local appeal.   Huh
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 05:54:52 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2012, 06:17:50 PM »

I don't doubt there might have been exceptions, though most of the calumny  a saint suffered would be unknown by their biographers.  Very little is known about a saint's personal life and what they went through because humility is a perquisite of sanctity.  All saints consider themselves the most sinful of men and constantly pray for God's forgiveness.

Some of the Saints enjoyed quite a wealthy life (like the Romanovs, St. Vladimir, St. Olaf, St. Constantine, St. Helen, St. Olga - royals, St. Gregory Peradze - university professor... Some Saints left a detailed info bout their personal life (Romanovs again, St. John of Kronstadt).

I can only deduce from these miraculous gifts given to certain saints by God after their death, that they are  in a higher position than others.

The more litres of myrrh - the more important Saint? What about those who were forgotten and came into the sunlight recently? What about those, whose bodies were burnt, drown, given for animals to eat? What about those millions of Saints we do not know about at all?

Why do you generalise so much?
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« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2012, 06:27:22 PM »

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.




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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2012, 06:33:51 PM »

Quote
That is interesting, as it runs counter to all I have heard from others who have visited monasteries on Mt. Athos, the Holy Land, etc.  Elder Ephraim is still the spiritual father of 5 monasteries on Mt. Athos (and some monasteries in Greece), and monks from Athos and elsewhere regularly come to the monastery in Arizona seeking guidance from him.  A few years ago a friend of mine visited monasteries on Mt. Athos and in the Holy Land and he was constantly asked by monks in these places whether he had visited the monastery in Arizona or knew Elder Ephraim.  Everyone he encountered spoke with great esteem about the Elder and the monasteries he has established.
Likewise, I have only heard good things from Athos about the Elder. I had the pleasure to meet a monk from Mt. Athos a few Sundays ago who came to Arizona for medical treatment and will be staying at St. Anthony's for some time, if not indefinitely.
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« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2012, 06:34:26 PM »

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  

My friends' daughter was born in December. The father is the parish council president, the mother - choir director.  police
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« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2012, 06:41:43 PM »

Quote
The father is the parish council president
Not to bash on the father, but that isn't exactly a mark of piety, as many around here I'm sure would joke.  Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2012, 06:58:46 PM »

People conceived during the most holy Lenten season will become werewolves! It is widely known. Or on a Friday, for that matter. And may other misfortunes will attend them.
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« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2012, 07:09:40 PM »

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The father is the parish council president
Not to bash on the father, but that isn't exactly a mark of piety, as many around here I'm sure would joke.  Cheesy

He's a nice guy.
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« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2012, 07:11:36 PM »

People conceived during the most holy Lenten season will become werewolves! It is widely known. Or on a Friday, for that matter. And may other misfortunes will attend them.
And the lesser lenten seasons? Perhaps they will just like their steaks a little rare?
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« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2012, 07:18:52 PM »

People conceived during the most holy Lenten season will become werewolves! It is widely known. Or on a Friday, for that matter. And may other misfortunes will attend them.
And the lesser lenten seasons? Perhaps they will just like their steaks a little rare?
A very old and wise woman told me. She was also talking about " the 12 forbidden Fridays" . That's   what Orthodox people in many places really believed or, still believe. They didn't know about Paul and Corinthians or whatever, Philistines.
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« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2012, 09:17:02 PM »

Quote
Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.  

This is nonsense. Many saints were married throughout their whole life.

And another thing:
Quote
24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.
 

We know that the Church sanctified saints, even if they were married,  were not living as man and wife...at least at the time they were considered saints.   You believe otherwise, but it is only an assumption on your part.  I find it strange the way people can assume that  sanctity can be achieved so easily, when the canonized saints of our Church, prayed until their dying hour that God will forgive them of their manifold sins, for they saw themselves as the least worthy and most sinful of men.  
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« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2012, 09:24:18 PM »

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.





Exactly.
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« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2012, 09:33:21 PM »

We know that the Church sanctified saints, even if they were married,  were not living as man and wife...at least at the time they were considered saints.

Agreed. People are considered Saints after death and in that state it's hard to have sex.
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« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2012, 09:51:10 PM »

I don't doubt there might have been exceptions, though most of the calumny  a saint suffered would be unknown by their biographers.  Very little is known about a saint's personal life and what they went through because humility is a perquisite of sanctity.  All saints consider themselves the most sinful of men and constantly pray for God's forgiveness.


Quote
Some of the Saints enjoyed quite a wealthy life (like the Romanovs, St. Vladimir, St. Olaf, St. Constantine, St. Helen, St. Olga - royals, St. Gregory Peradze - university professor... Some Saints left a detailed info bout their personal life (Romanovs again, St. John of Kronstadt).

You should read a little bit before posting.  The Romonovs were in a state of constant prayer before being killed, and even before being taken prisoner, they had a very intense prayer life.  You have no idea what those people suffered, especially Alexandra, not only with her son and the guilt feelings she had about him, but through the calumny that was ongoing in the newspapers.  She was so sick because of all these things, plus having an individual next to her that was demon possessed, because he was the only person able to cure her son, that she wasn't even able to walk and had to be wheeled around in a wheel chair.

 Do you know anything about Saint John Kronstadt's life?  Like all saints he hardly ever slept.  There were times his wife had to force him to stay a few minutes and eat a few bites, and like Saint Seraphim and other saints, he was almost beaten to death.  Try reading a bit before posting. 

Quote
I can only deduce from these miraculous gifts given to certain saints by God after their death, that they are  in a higher position than others.

Quote
The more litres of myrrh - the more important Saint? What about those who were forgotten and came into the sunlight recently? What about those, whose bodies were burnt, drown, given for animals to eat? What about those millions of Saints we do not know about at all?

Why do you generalise so much?

Why do you question God so much?  Anyway don't take it up with me, take it up with Him since I'm not the one giving these saints their charisms.  Why don't you just accept what God is showing you before jumping to conclusions.  Do you find it so hard?    Angry
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« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2012, 11:04:21 PM »

There isn't strong canonical guidance on marital relations, and so scheduling one's marital congress is largely left to the couple.  I was taught that one should follow the same rules for intercourse one follows for food: when no eating is permitted, then no intercourse is permitted.  Wednesdays and Fridays and other fast days one should scale back one's activities, whereas the 'regular days' a couple may enjoy themselves to the same degree that they enjoy food.  Never to excess, but more than on the fasting days.

What some people might find disappointing is that there is more to marital relations and sex than simply 'sex' or 'no sex.'

I don't think many monks understand that, and perhaps a number of married people have also forgotten.  Wink


And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.





Exactly.
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« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2012, 11:18:40 PM »

There isn't strong canonical guidance on marital relations, and so scheduling one's marital congress is largely left to the couple.  I was taught that one should follow the same rules for intercourse one follows for food: when no eating is permitted, then no intercourse is permitted.  Wednesdays and Fridays and other fast days one should scale back one's activities, whereas the 'regular days' a couple may enjoy themselves to the same degree that they enjoy food.  Never to excess, but more than on the fasting days.

What some people might find disappointing is that there is more to marital relations and sex than simply 'sex' or 'no sex.'

I'd ask, but I figure a priest shouldn't tell this kind of thing to a 17 year old he doesn't know.  angel
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« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2012, 11:20:13 PM »

There isn't strong canonical guidance on marital relations, and so scheduling one's marital congress is largely left to the couple.  I was taught that one should follow the same rules for intercourse one follows for food: when no eating is permitted, then no intercourse is permitted.  Wednesdays and Fridays and other fast days one should scale back one's activities, whereas the 'regular days' a couple may enjoy themselves to the same degree that they enjoy food.  Never to excess, but more than on the fasting days.

What some people might find disappointing is that there is more to marital relations and sex than simply 'sex' or 'no sex.'

I don't think many monks understand that, and perhaps a number of married people have also forgotten.  Wink


And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.





Exactly.

Most of us that have been married for more than 30 years understand it quite well.  It seems that those who keep wanting to get into our bedrooms are the ones that have the problem.  I think it is a big case of "I ain't gettin' any, so you shouldn't either" more than any piety.  If we are supposed to pray in secret, fast in secret, and give so that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, we should probably screw in secret, too.  If some dumbo feels the need to ask a priest when and where he can have relations with his wife, he pretty much deserves whatever he is told.  As for me and my household - stay out of our bedrooms.
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« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2012, 12:51:02 AM »

You get a for that post!

Most of us that have been married for more than 30 years understand it quite well.  It seems that those who keep wanting to get into our bedrooms are the ones that have the problem.  I think it is a big case of "I ain't gettin' any, so you shouldn't either" more than any piety.  If we are supposed to pray in secret, fast in secret, and give so that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, we should probably screw in secret, too.  If some dumbo feels the need to ask a priest when and where he can have relations with his wife, he pretty much deserves whatever he is told.  As for me and my household - stay out of our bedrooms.
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« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2012, 01:40:58 AM »

^^
Here is the youtube video that I was referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rw8SDZVsbc&feature=related

Modified to comply with rule regarding naked links. Priolo--please acquaint yourself with the rules ASAP. Thanks, Second Chance

What a hack job !    Pffft..
The video, or what Second Chance did to clothe the naked link? Would you please make clear what you're criticizing here? Thank you.

The TV report ..  Especially how at the end they tossed a grenade about antisemitism when nothing in the report was about that. Just a little eyebrow raiser for good measure??  It was poorly done IMHO
OK. Thanks for clearing this up. Smiley
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« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2012, 01:47:11 AM »

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Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.  

This is nonsense. Many saints were married throughout their whole life.

And another thing:
Quote
24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.
 

We know that the Church sanctified saints, even if they were married,  were not living as man and wife...at least at the time they were considered saints.   You believe otherwise, but it is only an assumption on your part.
I haven't seen you post anything that isn't an assumption on your part.

I find it strange the way people can assume that  sanctity can be achieved so easily,
Who's saying sanctity is easy to achieve?

when the canonized saints of our Church, prayed until their dying hour that God will forgive them of their manifold sins, for they saw themselves as the least worthy and most sinful of men.  
What do you know of the canonization of saints in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2012, 01:49:13 AM »

There isn't strong canonical guidance on marital relations, and so scheduling one's marital congress is largely left to the couple.  I was taught that one should follow the same rules for intercourse one follows for food: when no eating is permitted, then no intercourse is permitted.  Wednesdays and Fridays and other fast days one should scale back one's activities, whereas the 'regular days' a couple may enjoy themselves to the same degree that they enjoy food.  Never to excess, but more than on the fasting days.

What some people might find disappointing is that there is more to marital relations and sex than simply 'sex' or 'no sex.'

I don't think many monks understand that, and perhaps a number of married people have also forgotten.  Wink


And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.





Exactly.

Most of us that have been married for more than 30 years understand it quite well.  It seems that those who keep wanting to get into our bedrooms are the ones that have the problem.  I think it is a big case of "I ain't gettin' any, so you shouldn't either" more than any piety.  If we are supposed to pray in secret, fast in secret, and give so that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, we should probably screw in secret, too.  If some dumbo feels the need to ask a priest when and where he can have relations with his wife, he pretty much deserves whatever he is told.  As for me and my household - stay out of our bedrooms.
LOL! laugh Well said, Punch!
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« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2012, 01:50:54 AM »

That was amazing, Punch.
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« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2012, 05:10:32 AM »

Quote
Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.  

This is nonsense. Many saints were married throughout their whole life.

And another thing:
Quote
24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.
 

We know that the Church sanctified saints, even if they were married,  were not living as man and wife...at least at the time they were considered saints.   You believe otherwise, but it is only an assumption on your part.  I find it strange the way people can assume that  sanctity can be achieved so easily, when the canonized saints of our Church, prayed until their dying hour that God will forgive them of their manifold sins, for they saw themselves as the least worthy and most sinful of men.  


You keep changing your point of view. First, you say that the saints became saints only after their spouse had died, now you say that all saints lived as brother and sister. How am I supposed to take you seriously when you keep changing your opinion?
And I am not assuming that sanctity is achieved easily, please, don't put words in my mouth.
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« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2012, 08:41:02 AM »

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.

For all of your insistence that confessors and spiritual fathers should “stay out of your bedroom”, I am puzzled as to how you have become so familiar with the sexual practices of other married couples.  I have also been married for a number of years but I have no idea about the sexual practices of other married couples, and I would like to keep it that way.  I would also never ask other men about such things as “erectile dysfunction”, nor would I think that men who have this problem would freely discuss this with their friends.  To speak of such subjects with others would seem very intrusive, yet you claim to have such intimate knowledge of others while vehemently opposing the discussion of such supposedly “intrusive” things with a spiritual father?

I also find it troubling to see you suggest that married couples rarely abstain from sexual relations during fasting periods.  All that should matter is that the Church requires married people to abstain from sexual relations during particular times in order to properly prepare both body and soul for the reception of Holy Communion, for the proper celebration of Feast Days, etc.  At the Judgment we will each have to give an account of our own sins and our own negligence, and then we will not be able to justify ourselves by what “everybody else” supposedly does or fails to do.   

By your reference to those having “erectile dysfunction” as being the only ones who abstain from sexual relations in marriage during fasting periods, you seem to be mocking the teachings of the Church and those who would strive to be obedient to the Church, thereby causing temptation for others on this list who might be struggling with obedience in this area.   
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« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2012, 09:50:56 AM »

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.

For all of your insistence that confessors and spiritual fathers should “stay out of your bedroom”,
I'm not sure Punch ever said that, so I would like to see you either show us where he did or stop putting words into his mouth. Hint: The key to my inquiry is your emphasis on confessors and spiritual fathers, while, at least on this thread, Punch spoke only of monastics with whom he has no such confessional relationship.
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« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2012, 10:03:43 AM »

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.






If people want to look through the archives there is a good quote from Fr. Alexander Lebedeev (ROCOR) saying that this fasting from marital relations  is just nonsense.  It was NEVER part of the Slavic orthodox tradition.
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« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2012, 10:32:33 AM »

And, PtA, St Paul's words are adhered to by a great many Orthodox couples. You are still young in age and faith, and, if I'm not mistaken, not married. Do not dismiss or dilute what we, older in many ways, have to say.

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.  Great many?  I would like to see the data.  The Apostle Paul was wise in requiring mutual consent.  Monks have no business giving marriage advice to married couples.  They do not fight our fight.  This was very good advice given to me by my Godfather, a monk in the ROCOR.






If people want to look through the archives there is a good quote from Fr. Alexander Lebedeev (ROCOR) saying that this fasting from marital relations  is just nonsense.  It was NEVER part of the Slavic orthodox tradition.

Are you talking about this one?
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« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2012, 11:00:46 AM »

Lord have mercy!

May the Lord have mercy on him and grant him eternal rest. May the Lord comfort his family and all his loved ones at this most difficult time. May the Lord  comfort and bring peace to the Monks in the monastery. Amen Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2012, 11:10:43 AM »

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.

For all of your insistence that confessors and spiritual fathers should “stay out of your bedroom”,
I'm not sure Punch ever said that, so I would like to see you either show us where he did or stop putting words into his mouth. Hint: The key to my inquiry is your emphasis on confessors and spiritual fathers, while, at least on this thread, Punch spoke only of monastics with whom he has no such confessional relationship.

Why would monastics instruct married people regarding the rules of fasting if that monastic is not their confessor or spiritual father?  If you follow the thread, I think it is clear that the subject being discussed is the giving of advice by a monk to married people in the context of confession regarding fasting from sexual relations.  To this, Punch said “As for me and my household - stay out of our bedrooms.”  Though he specifically refers to “monastics”, his other comments suggest that nobody has the right to advise a married couple regarding such things as sexual relations during fasting periods.   

If the Church has specific guidelines for abstention from sexual relations within marriage during fasting periods, a monk who is a spiritual father to a married couple has every obligation before God to inform the married couple regarding the teachings of the Church on this subject.  One should always be discerning when choosing a spiritual father, and one should not take a man for his spiritual father merely because the man is a priest or a monk.  Having one’s parish priest as their spiritual father is more common in Slavic tradition, perhaps, whereas it is less common in the Greek tradition for parish priests to have this role and more common for monastics to serve as spiritual fathers to the laity.  If you read the lives of any of the great monastic spiritual fathers of recent times (the Elders of Optina from the Slavic tradition or the Elders of Greece and Mt. Athos such as Porphyrios, Paisios, Iakovos, Philotheos, etc.) you will find many stories of contemporary monastic saints who served as spiritual fathers to the laity and advised them on every aspect of their lives including issues that may arise in marriage.  Within the context of Orthodox tradition, this is all very normal.

I disagree that a gifted spiritual father should not be sought out for advice regarding marriage under the guise that only those who are married understand marriage.  Such a principle would cause us to reject also the words of the Lord, of St. Paul, St. John Chrysostom, and practically every saint and Church Father who has written on the subject (there are certainly saints who were married, but not many who have written concerning marriage).  I think that in our times, when family life and man’s relation to his sexual impulses has become unbelievably dysfunctional and distorted, we are in even greater need of advice and help from those who do daily and life-long battle against the sexual passions.  Those in the grips of these passions, including married clergy, may not be able to see as clearly regarding the proper and God-pleasing role of sexual relations within marriage compared to an experienced monastic who is immersed in the Scriptures and patristic writings as well as the focused and daily combat against the passions. 

Married couples and monastics are both susceptible to a full range of sinful sexual desires and passions.  The only difference is that for the married couple, there is a context in which it is not sinful for the couple to engage in sexual activity.  For the one lawful context, there are many more sinful and soul-destroying contexts wherein the married couple may be tempted to engage in sexual activity.  If a monastic spiritual father is actually experienced in battling against and overcoming all sexual urges (and not all monks are), he may be a great source of help to the married couple who is struggling to keep the marriage bed undefiled. 
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« Reply #120 on: June 22, 2012, 11:13:02 AM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #121 on: June 22, 2012, 11:38:35 AM »

I have a life outside of this forum, and this discussion comes up quite frequently (usually by some overzealous convert).  The general consensus, by nearly EVERYONE including our Priest, is BY MUTUAL CONSENT as the Holy Apostle wrote.  I really do not care how many celebate monks wrote on the subject, it is NOT their area to discuss.  That is why our Church, in its wisdom, has given us a married priesthood. 

I am Orthodox, and have been married for 31 years.  I know of nearly no one who fasts from relations 40 days unless they have erectile disfunction.

For all of your insistence that confessors and spiritual fathers should “stay out of your bedroom”, I am puzzled as to how you have become so familiar with the sexual practices of other married couples.  I have also been married for a number of years but I have no idea about the sexual practices of other married couples, and I would like to keep it that way.  I would also never ask other men about such things as “erectile dysfunction”, nor would I think that men who have this problem would freely discuss this with their friends.  To speak of such subjects with others would seem very intrusive, yet you claim to have such intimate knowledge of others while vehemently opposing the discussion of such supposedly “intrusive” things with a spiritual father?

I also find it troubling to see you suggest that married couples rarely abstain from sexual relations during fasting periods.  All that should matter is that the Church requires married people to abstain from sexual relations during particular times in order to properly prepare both body and soul for the reception of Holy Communion, for the proper celebration of Feast Days, etc.  At the Judgment we will each have to give an account of our own sins and our own negligence, and then we will not be able to justify ourselves by what “everybody else” supposedly does or fails to do.   

By your reference to those having “erectile dysfunction” as being the only ones who abstain from sexual relations in marriage during fasting periods, you seem to be mocking the teachings of the Church and those who would strive to be obedient to the Church, thereby causing temptation for others on this list who might be struggling with obedience in this area.   
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« Reply #122 on: June 22, 2012, 11:42:17 AM »

For what it's worth, Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, on his monastery's website, tells married Orthodox Christians to beware of having zealous, strict, monastic priestmonks as their confessors, esp. if such priestmonks exhibit an unhealthy interest in the sexual relationship of the couple.  Just a word to the wise.
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« Reply #123 on: June 22, 2012, 11:44:13 AM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.
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« Reply #124 on: June 22, 2012, 12:02:22 PM »

For what it's worth, Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, on his monastery's website, tells married Orthodox Christians to beware of having zealous, strict, monastic priestmonks as their confessors, esp. if such priestmonks exhibit an unhealthy interest in the sexual relationship of the couple.  Just a word to the wise.

While I don't have a ton of respect for his holiness, I do agree and my spiritual father has offered the same warning.
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« Reply #125 on: June 22, 2012, 12:02:30 PM »

What is the monk is certified: http://prayerfoundation.org/monk_certificate_and_card.htm?

I have a life outside of this forum, and this discussion comes up quite frequently (usually by some overzealous convert).  The general consensus, by nearly EVERYONE including our Priest, is BY MUTUAL CONSENT as the Holy Apostle wrote.  I really do not care how many celebate monks wrote on the subject, it is NOT their area to discuss.  That is why our Church, in its wisdom, has given us a married priesthood. 
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« Reply #126 on: June 22, 2012, 12:14:06 PM »

Quote
Of course they can, and God has called many a married person to become saints.   I'm sure though at the time they were not living in a married state.  

This is nonsense. Many saints were married throughout their whole life.

And another thing:
Quote
24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.
 

We know that the Church sanctified saints, even if they were married,  were not living as man and wife...at least at the time they were considered saints.   You believe otherwise, but it is only an assumption on your part.
I haven't seen you post anything that isn't an assumption on your part.

I find it strange the way people can assume that  sanctity can be achieved so easily,
Who's saying sanctity is easy to achieve?

when the canonized saints of our Church, prayed until their dying hour that God will forgive them of their manifold sins, for they saw themselves as the least worthy and most sinful of men.  
What do you know of the canonization of saints in the Orthodox Church?

I've read biographies of modern saints, have you?

 And I know that humility is a perquisite to holiness, do you?

 I also know that miracles is God's assurance about a person's sanctity, do you?

As for saying I'm making assumptions,  funny you would say that since my points have all been proven, have yours?   

As for Abba Anthony, what does this have to do with a saint being married or not?  A person can be living in the world, and yet be just as holy as a monk in a monastery...if that was you intention in posting it.  Certainly Elder Porphyrios was.  He had to leave Mount Athos because of his health, and spent the next decades, including WWII working in a hospital. ...and he had more charisms than even Elder Paisios, and Elder Amelianos. 

Saint Elizabeth, sister to Tsarina Alexandra and granddaughter of Queen Victoria, gave up her enormous wealth after her husband was killed, to open a nunnery and hospital.  She tended the sick and poor, (Queen Victoria raised both girls to be nurses), and the most serious cases were sent to her.  There were times the scent of gangrene was so strong that her clothes had to be burned.  In the end she was thrown down a mine shaft with some young Romonovs that refused to leave Russia.  Singing was heard coming from the mine so grenades were tossed in by the Bolsheviks to finish them off. 

Her body and that of another nun was recovered by a priest, and taken to China.  Her sister, Prince Phillips grandmother, brought her body to Jerusalem...as was her wish.  Again, myrhh kept streaming from the coffin as a sign from God as to her holiness.  angel
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« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2012, 12:16:06 PM »

The general consensus, by nearly EVERYONE including our Priest, is BY MUTUAL CONSENT as the Holy Apostle wrote.

Yes, I have never challenged this, nor have I ever heard a monastic or non-monastic spiritual father suggest otherwise.  We should struggle to keep the fasts as proscribed by the Church and as instructed by our spiritual father, but if our spouse is not strong enough or is otherwise unwilling, then of course it would be better to consent to your spouse than through excessive deprivation to leave room for the spouse to fall into worse temptations (lust for others, fornication, adultery, etc.).  But if this happens, one should have the humility to abstain from communion the following day or for however long one's spiritual father says.  
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« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2012, 12:17:39 PM »

For what it's worth, Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, on his monastery's website, tells married Orthodox Christians to beware of having zealous, strict, monastic priestmonks as their confessors, esp. if such priestmonks exhibit an unhealthy interest in the sexual relationship of the couple.  Just a word to the wise.

While I don't have a ton of respect for his holiness, I do agree and my spiritual father has offered the same warning.

I think that the advice is commonly given by priests and hierarchs coming from outside the limited world of strict monastic communities. Frankly if I were the parish priest of some of you, I would offer you a choice - be part of the fullness of the community of parish life and that entails or find a monastery that suits you. Speaking from the priest's perspective (via my family experience - not my own) the problem with Elders such as Ephraim is not really with the elder per se, but with the impact that parishioners who rely on them as being almost 'mystics' in a non-Orthodox sense have on a parish and its spiritual AND temporal existence.
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« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2012, 12:24:35 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existance.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2012, 12:42:34 PM »

Quote
As for Abba Anthony, what does this have to do with a saint being married or not?

Your first claim was that one cannot achieve the same level of sanctity as a monk if you're married. Yet, one of the greatest monastic saints in the church found his equal in a doctor who most likely would have been married.
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« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2012, 12:42:34 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
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« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2012, 12:48:35 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existance.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...
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« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2012, 12:58:10 PM »

I've read biographies of modern saints, have you?
Yes, enough to know that you're drawing conclusions not supported by those biographies.

And I know that humility is a perquisite to holiness, do you?
Yes, since that's been a consistent teaching of the Church since before Pentecost.

I also know that miracles is God's assurance about a person's sanctity, do you?
You assert that miracles are God's assurance of a person's sanctity, but you don't know this, nor have you proven it.

As for saying I'm making assumptions,  funny you would say that since my points have all been proven, have yours?
I've not seen you do anything to prove any of your assertions. Backing up unfounded assertions with more unfounded assertions does not prove anything.

As for Abba Anthony, what does this have to do with a saint being married or not?  A person can be living in the world, and yet be just as holy as a monk in a monastery...if that was you intention in posting it.  Certainly Elder Porphyrios was.  He had to leave Mount Athos because of his health, and spent the next decades, including WWII working in a hospital. ...and he had more charisms than even Elder Paisios, and Elder Amelianos. 

Saint Elizabeth, sister to Tsarina Alexandra and granddaughter of Queen Victoria, gave up her enormous wealth after her husband was killed, to open a nunnery and hospital.  She tended the sick and poor, (Queen Victoria raised both girls to be nurses), and the most serious cases were sent to her.  There were times the scent of gangrene was so strong that her clothes had to be burned.  In the end she was thrown down a mine shaft with some young Romonovs that refused to leave Russia.  Singing was heard coming from the mine so grenades were tossed in by the Bolsheviks to finish them off. 

Her body and that of another nun was recovered by a priest, and taken to China.  Her sister, Prince Phillips grandmother, brought her body to Jerusalem...as was her wish.  Again, myrhh kept streaming from the coffin as a sign from God as to her holiness.  angel
I said nothing about Abba Antony. You must have me confused with someone else.
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« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2012, 01:00:44 PM »

We should struggle to keep the fasts as proscribed by the Church and as instructed by our spiritual father,
AFAIK, the Church does not proscribe any fasts, since proscribe means to forbid. She prescribes fasts, but she doesn't proscribe them. Wink
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« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2012, 01:03:19 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity. 


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.
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« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2012, 01:11:38 PM »

We should struggle to keep the fasts as proscribed by the Church and as instructed by our spiritual father,
AFAIK, the Church does not proscribe any fasts, since proscribe means to forbid. She prescribes fasts, but she doesn't proscribe them. Wink

Actually, the Church does proscribe fasting.  On Sundays, for instance  Wink

You are correct that I intended to say prescribed
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« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2012, 01:16:09 PM »

I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?
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« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2012, 01:48:31 PM »

I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  Wink
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« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2012, 02:01:16 PM »

I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  Wink

Not limited to us - any thread that gets wrapped up so tightly it spins on and on like a top!  Wink
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« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2012, 02:29:48 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! Huh
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 02:32:05 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2012, 04:39:48 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! Huh
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 04:41:53 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2012, 07:07:51 PM »

I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Good point.  If Zenovia is correct, St. Paul has something to do with it as well. 
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« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2012, 01:23:15 AM »

I have about a dozen threads like this in my head every day!

Say, do you like ice cream?


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?
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« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2012, 09:17:13 AM »

Love ice cream...Moose tracks are sinful, perhaps a less passion invoking flavor like artificial vanilla would be better?
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« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2012, 09:31:59 AM »

I have about a dozen threads like this in my head every day!

Say, do you like ice cream?


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Amen.  As to ice cream, I'll take vanilla with a shot of brandy poured over it.
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« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2012, 02:13:59 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! Huh
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!   

As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?   Also I consider Saint Paul an exemplary example  of the sacrifices God expects from His Saints, and they should all be bowed down to for their heroic virtue.  The  Church expects no less.    Smiley
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« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2012, 04:15:21 PM »

Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2012, 10:56:55 PM »


When I was in Greece I had an Old Calendarist and an Orthodox Christian both ask me about Elder Ephraim and if I'd ever been to Arizona. They showed me a calendar and stuff they'd gotten in the mail from there...

I know many Priests who've warned their faithful to watch out, not just at these, but all monasteries because the monastics are deep into the spiritual life and experts at monastic asceticism, but they don't know much about married asceticism and life in (but not of) the world.

I've even heard of some of Elder Ephraim's monks advising couples to fast from each other for a period of time, which inevitably caused undue tensions and conflict in the marriage, sometimes causing lustful passions to flare in one or each party and causing terrible strife between the couple...

I've also heard of other things, but monasteries are for going for quiet and solitude, for rest and spiritual exercises. But they aren't for us "worldly" ascetics to go seek advice and penance.

 God did not call everyone to sanctity.  


(insert jaw-dropping emoticon)

Do you not pay attention to Liturgy, where we pray for the sanctity of all?  

I guess you find your calling equal to Saint Pauls?  Huh

Yes. St. Paul mentions it's the calling of all Christians to be saints.

It's all semantics you know?  Of course we're called to be saints, but  God didn't give us that road to Damascus experience.   As for me, how can I even imagine myself equal to Saint Paul in virtue? Cry
Then it's apparent that you define sanctity and saint in ways that the Church does not.

Oh, so you do consider yourself equal to Saint Paul in virtue?  Interesting! Huh
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
No. Where do you get that idea?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 01:30:28 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2012, 01:07:31 AM »

Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

I think the following quote is really telling of the state of the man...

Quote
I don’t know what to do, dumba**. Help me! Hey, …s**t-head, ask The All Holy Elder Ephraim if he feels like having every tooth beaten out of his Skull, because that’s how I feel”.


Lord have mercy...
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« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2012, 01:12:55 AM »

Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

jah777 here is the link to the original but you need to sign up to read the whole thing... Sad

http://www.thenationalherald.com/article/55811
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« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2012, 01:09:06 PM »


Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  Huh

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   Wink
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« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2012, 01:18:39 PM »

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  Huh

All your posts in this thread.
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« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2012, 01:20:43 PM »

Back to the OP, the National Herald published a pretty good article covering this story. I had trouble accessing it from their site but POKROV reproduced it here:

 http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=1814

Lord have mercy.

The loss of a soul must be such a burden on the Elder Ephraim and the rest of the monks.  I can only imagine the amount of prayers that have been said, and are being said for him and others like him.  He had to have been possessed, but without the willingness of the recipient to rid himself of it, how can he be helped?   What a pity!   Sad
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« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2012, 01:24:06 PM »

Quote
Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.
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« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »

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Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.

Actually it couldn't have originated from Islam since Islam was later than Christianity, but Buddhism does believe in seven heavens.  I'm assuming the concept of seven heavens is a revelation by God that predates Judaism and the revelation given to them of one God...but this is only my opinion.  I might be wrong, I don't know enough about early religions, nor about Buddhism and when it was established.   As for the concept of seven heavens, if it isn't part of Christian theology, then why would  Saint Paul specify the third heaven?

Again though, this doesn't mean that heaven is a place, or that there are actual borders separating one 'state of being', or rather one 'state of Theosis'  from another, only that our ability is limited, and because of this, concepts have to be structured in ways that we can grasp them.  Smiley
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« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2012, 02:13:22 PM »

Quote
Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.  

Actually, the idea that there exists exactly seven heavens originates from Judaism and Islam. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more than one heaven though.

Actually it couldn't have originated from Islam since Islam was later than Christianity, but Buddhism does believe in seven heavens.  I'm assuming the concept of seven heavens is a revelation by God that predates Judaism and the revelation given to them of one God...but this is only my opinion.  I might be wrong, I don't know enough about early religions, nor about Buddhism and when it was established.   As for the concept of seven heavens, if it isn't part of Christian theology, then why would  Saint Paul specify the third heaven?

Again though, this doesn't mean that heaven is a place, or that there are actual borders separating one 'state of being', or rather one 'state of Theosis'  from another, only that our ability is limited, and because of this, concepts have to be structured in ways that we can grasp them.  Smiley

Alright, I have read a little further. It seems that in this case you are up to something. According to jewish theology, the universe consists of seven heavens. Each of these heavens called Shamayim is the dwellingplace of God and other divine beings.

1.Vilon
 2.Raki'a
 3.Shehaqim
 4.Zebul
 5.Ma'on
 6.Machon
 7.Araboth (Where the Throne of God is located.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofanim
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« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2012, 04:14:47 PM »


Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote
You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  Huh
We already have told you, and many times over. If you're going to be so obtuse that you just don't get the point of our constant arguments with you, then there's really no use repeating to you yet again which of your teachings are heretical.

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   Wink
I know simple logic. What you're presenting is not even logical.
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« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2012, 04:31:46 PM »

I know simple logic.

.sig worthy
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« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2012, 04:59:56 PM »


Quote
It seems that you consider yourself equal to St. Paul in dogmatic authority. Otherwise, I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said.

You made a statement here about considering myself equal to Saint Paul in dogmatic authority, please qualify...if you can that is.  I doubt it!

Quote


You proclaim teachings that are against what the Church teaches, yet you claim them to be apostolic and consistent with Church teaching, even though you often have half the forum community pointing out how wrong you are. You also say such things as, "if you don't agree with me, take it up with God, not with me."

Again you're not qualifying.  You are saying that I have made statements which are against what the Church teaches, but are not telling me what those statements are.  Huh
We already have told you, and many times over. If you're going to be so obtuse that you just don't get the point of our constant arguments with you, then there's really no use repeating to you yet again which of your teachings are heretical.

Quote
As for my response, Saint Paul came into the discussion because he was the one that mentioned a third heaven.  Wouldn't the concept of separate heavens mean a greater glorifycation for some in relation to others?
Quote
No. Where do you get that idea?

Well!!!  I figure that if two and two equal four, and one and three equal four, then three and one must equal four as well?  Simple logic my man, simple logic.   Wink
I know simple logic. What you're presenting is not even logical.

Okay you did question the post I wrote about what constitutes a saint in the Orthodox Church, and I did say that the understanding of a saint is different in the Orthodox Church than it is in the Protestant Churches.    I found this in Wikipedia:

"...A saint is a holy person. In various religions, saints are people who are believed to have exceptional holiness.
 
In Christian usage, "saint" refers to any believer who is "in Christ", and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or in earth. (2Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 3:14-19; 2Corinthians 13:5) In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

As for the seven heavens, I found this in a Bible discussion forum:

"...  Therefore the highest heaven is the heaven of wisdom; the second, of understanding; the third, of counsel; the fourth, of might; the fifth, of knowledge; the sixth, of piety; the seventh, of God's fear.
 
- Victorinus, Fathers of the Church, On the Creation of the World..."

The way I would understand this, is that a person progresses from one 'state of being' to a higher 'state of being' after death, in the same way a person grows in Grace during their lifetime.   But again, this is only my interpretation.  Should a Father of the Church interpret it differently, then I would definitely accept their explanations...after all, I'm not a saint.  Wink


 
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« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2012, 05:03:10 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.
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« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2012, 05:38:10 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided

 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:51:31 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #162 on: June 24, 2012, 07:02:58 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.
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« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

I may have to sign off this list for a while.  I find myself agreeing with you too much lately.
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« Reply #164 on: June 25, 2012, 12:11:04 AM »

I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  Wink

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)
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« Reply #165 on: June 25, 2012, 12:35:40 AM »

May the Lord have mercy on him.
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« Reply #166 on: June 25, 2012, 12:45:14 AM »

I think one can only become imprisoned in a thread if one is possessed by the passion of irrascibility.  However, I think that if one gets really trapped and suffers, it can become something of a purgatorial experience...  Cool

Seriously, the man's death is a tragedy.  He was a troubled adult who made a very bad decision, and I doubt any of us will ever know exactly what was going on in the end.

I would like to think that, given his number of weapons he brought with him, that he fought off the temptation to harm others at the monastery, though he was unable to fight off the temptation of suicide.  Lord, have mercy on him.


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  Wink

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)

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« Reply #167 on: June 25, 2012, 04:25:32 AM »

I think one can only become imprisoned in a thread if one is possessed by the passion of irrascibility.  However, I think that if one gets really trapped and suffers, it can become something of a purgatorial experience...  Cool

Seriously, the man's death is a tragedy.  He was a troubled adult who made a very bad decision, and I doubt any of us will ever know exactly what was going on in the end.

I would like to think that, given his number of weapons he brought with him, that he fought off the temptation to harm others at the monastery, though he was unable to fight off the temptation of suicide.  Lord, have mercy on him.


I wonder if the unfortunate young man who was the subject of the OP found himself trapped in a thread like this on another forum?

Are you saying that OCnet threads such as this might be a leading cause of suicidal ideation?  Wink

Nope.  Homicidal. ;P

I lurk mostly these days, and am in awe of the OCNet threads.  Only a bunch of geeks having a religious war over some programming detail can keep a thread going for even longer.  (And I've been guilty of taking part in those too!)

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #168 on: June 25, 2012, 04:28:57 AM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.
To her defense, I must remind you, that she has admitted, that sainthood can be achieved while still living in the world.
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« Reply #169 on: June 25, 2012, 05:52:16 AM »

Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?
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« Reply #170 on: June 25, 2012, 06:10:47 AM »

Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?
I'm not sure about the monastery, but Metropolitan Gerasimos has released a statement.
Quote
Dear Brothers in Christ,


 The responsibility we share as the ordained ministers of the Holy Gospel is a sacred trust bestowed upon us by Holy Ordination. Our ministry is replete with joy and sorrow that we experience with the people of God entrusted to our spiritual care.


 It is, therefore, my paternal obligation to inform you of a tragic event that has occurred within the boundaries of our Holy Metropolis. A young man who had come to our Faith and became a novice at the Holy Monastery of St. Anthony the Great, and subsequently left the Monastery for unknown reasons last year, took his life last Monday morning at approximately 2:45AM. Scott Nevins, 27 years old, had spent six years at St. Anthony's. Last year, after leaving the Monastery he enrolled in a college in Oregon. In the early hours of last Monday morning, Scott took his life in an area near the monastery.


 The proper authorities are investigating this incident and we will cooperate in every way necessary. In addition, the Metropolis is conducting an investigation into this matter.


On behalf of the Holy Metropolis of San Francisco we wish to extend our prayers and love to the Nevins family. May Christ Jesus, our Lord, God and Savior look with mercy upon the soul of his departed servant.
Eternal be his memory!

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/06/troubled-monk-apparently-commits.html
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« Reply #171 on: June 25, 2012, 06:29:00 AM »

So Awful Sad Why did he walk away from the faith I saw some of the negative comments on youtube he wrote. What happened is what everyone wants to know I guess.
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« Reply #172 on: June 25, 2012, 03:20:10 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.
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« Reply #173 on: June 25, 2012, 03:31:15 PM »

Hi All,

Has a statement been released by the monastery regarding this sad event? What did the monastery try to do to prevent this individual from losing his battle ? Did God abandon him or did he abandon God?

Thank God, He doesn't abandon anyone.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #174 on: June 25, 2012, 08:03:27 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh
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88Devin12
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« Reply #175 on: June 25, 2012, 08:14:26 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.
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Zenovia
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« Reply #176 on: June 25, 2012, 08:20:05 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #177 on: June 25, 2012, 08:24:11 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:24:49 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Zenovia
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« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2012, 08:33:38 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).   

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel 
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88Devin12
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« Reply #179 on: June 25, 2012, 08:38:24 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:41:29 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Zenovia
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« Reply #180 on: June 25, 2012, 08:41:50 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes
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Zenovia
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« Reply #181 on: June 25, 2012, 09:08:56 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...

There are certain signs that God gives before a saint is glorified.  I don't believe that Fr. Seraphim Rose has passed the three year mark.  The reason I said that he and the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi won't be glorified, is because both of them stated things which tended towards demogoguery, and saints will never say anything that isn't edifying to their recipients. 

As for Elder Paisios, he had nationalistic feelings towards Greece, but that's understandable  since he had to leave Asia Minor as a child.  He was reprimanded by his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios for prophesizing, and later on he himself realized that many of the prophecies attributed to him were never said by him.   Too many times monks and others will give their own interpretation to what they read...and add a bit here and there.   Wink
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« Reply #182 on: June 25, 2012, 09:15:32 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are so extremely misguided. You are aware that the Roman Catholic Church is in heresy and schism from the true Church right? They have been in heresy for almost 1,000 years now and have not taught orthodoxy since then. They are almost as far away from us as the Protestants and Anglicans are.

So we fast from "carnal" things? I didn't know that meat, dairy and wine/alcohol was carnal. Huh, then I guess Jesus was carnal since he most likely ate meat and dairy during his lifetime, and we know for sure he drank wine.
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« Reply #183 on: June 25, 2012, 09:16:33 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  
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« Reply #184 on: June 25, 2012, 09:18:45 PM »

In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration..."

You've bolded the wrong part. You should have made that with the one I put in red.

Look we use words to express concepts and if these words are not expressing those concepts in ways that the other person can understand, then there is no purpose in using them .  The Bible might state that a saint as being anyone that believes in Jesus Christ, and that will be understood correctly by a Protestant, but it will not be understood by an Orthodox.  Only if God had revealed  to the Church that someone had the purity of heart and soul to be worthy of veneration would  the title of 'saint' be given to them in the Orthodox Church.

 I did state before in one of my posts that the understanding of saint is different to a Protestant than it is to an Orthodox.   I use the word according to its understanding in the Orthodox Church.  I really thought you people would understand that since it is an Orthodox forum.    I guess I was wrong.   Undecided
The reason you're wrong is that you're adding your own spin to the way "saint" is used in the Orthodox Church when you say that only some have the calling to become saints (as YOU define "saint") while most of us do not and when you say that celibacy is a necessary prerequisite for sainthood (as YOU define "sainthood"). This shows that you really don't know how the Orthodox Church defines the concept of sainthood and what it means to be a saint.

Oh my gosh, to think that all my relatives and the Greeks have been wrong for not realizing that they too are saints,  and here I thought it was only the saints that the Church has glorified.  Maybe I should be praying to my mother instead of Saint Nektarios and the rest of these  so called 'glorified' saints...that is of course  if our new revised Orthodox Church allows prayers of intercession...one never knows?   Huh

Where did you learn that there were no other Saints than those the Church has officially glorified? The entire purpose of "All Saints Day" is to recognize all of the Saints which haven't been glorified or recognized by the Church and have been hidden from us.

For example, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose haven't been glorified, yet I still ask for their intercession on my behalf. By your logic, Saints aren't Saints until they are officially recognized. This is something which is extremely wrong, and misguided.

When the scriptures speak about saints, it is NOT talking about people officially recognized, canonized by the church, because you didn't have official canonization for a long time, in fact, until after Constantine. Saints were unofficially recognize by the church, as they are still today. We don't "require" official recognition of a Saint like the Roman Catholic Church does. You can ask for someone's intercession without them being officially named a Saint.

Will you people cut it out.  I was being sarcastic about all Christians being considered saints, although I will admit that two of my ancestors experiences were quite similar to those of glorified 'Saints', (of course they were celibate at the time of those experiences).  

As for Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Emelianos, Elder Ephriam, I've read their writings and they are definitely saints.  As for others such as;  Fr. Serapim Rose as well as the recently decased Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, well I've read their works and frankly, they will never be glorified. angel  

Tell that to ROCOR, they will be the ones to glorify Fr. Seraphim. Heck, he already has what in Orthodoxy we call, a "cult" following (not in the bad sense) and I even have an icon of him (as well as the unglorified Elder Paisios)...

There are certain signs that God gives before a saint is glorified.  I don't believe that Fr. Seraphim Rose has passed the three year mark.  The reason I said that he and the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi won't be glorified, is because both of them stated things which tended towards demogoguery, and saints will never say anything that isn't edifying to their recipients. 

As for Elder Paisios, he had nationalistic feelings towards Greece, but that's understandable  since he had to leave Asia Minor as a child.  He was reprimanded by his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios for prophesizing, and later on he himself realized that many of the prophecies attributed to him were never said by him.   Too many times monks and others will give their own interpretation to what they read...and add a bit here and there.   Wink

like I said before, we aren't Roman Catholics and don't require certain signs for someone to be made a Saint. In fact, most of the earliest saints' relics are bones (including the Apostles), which means none of them exhibited in-corrupt bodies after death.

We don't have systematic theology, we aren't legalistic, and we definitely don't have a systematic way of "classifying" and judging who are and aren't saints in our church.

Systematic theology, legalism, official classification etc... are all aspects of heretical Western Christianity post-schism, not of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #185 on: June 25, 2012, 09:20:12 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.
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« Reply #186 on: June 25, 2012, 09:20:59 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?
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« Reply #187 on: June 25, 2012, 09:21:05 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  

Surely there are enough non-fasting, non-festal Mondays in the year upon which to have marital relations and conceive.
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« Reply #188 on: June 25, 2012, 09:25:47 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

After reading your comments in here and another thread, regarding sanctity, and Holy Matrimony, I have to say, your views are increasingly troubling to me.

Do you regard the Marital bed as being defiled?

Do you see sex within marriage as sinful?

Why is Holy Matrimony called Holy ?

Anyway, I think you should look into  this, because you are bordering a dangerous territory of denying/cursing what God has established honored ,blessed and sanctified. Listen to your orthodox Fathers in here, or the ancients, listen to the council of your orthodox brothers and sisters in here and consider your position on this matter.

With love in Christ,
Hiwot.

You're taking everything out of context since it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  I never said marriage isn't  blessed, (boy you people have a lot of hangups), I merely said that a person cannot achieve the high estate of sainthood, while living a carnal existence.

Come on now, a little humility here.  Is it so difficult to accept some people as being more virtuous than others?  Roll Eyes

Marriage is carnal??? Hmm may want to tell that to Joachim & Anna, Zacharius and Elizabeth, and countless others...

It is actually a western idea that sex is evil, carnal and wrong. As Orthodox we do not and have not ever believed that. Sex is a holy and beautiful thing within the context of marriage.

Just so you know Zenovia, what do you think becoming one with God is? Why do you think Christ is called the bridegroom and the Church is called the bride?

We cannot fall under western misconceptions about sexuality. We are Eastern Orthodox Christians and we don't share those same ideas with Western Christendom.

In fact, a lot of the fundamental American ideals about sexuality are Western conceptions, not Orthodox conceptions.

The bodiless hosts see the union between a husband and wife in the marriage bed and they stand in awe, absolutely marveling at the miracle of two becoming one. It isn't carnal, it is beautiful...

well said Devin, it is indeed beautiful.

Dear Zenovia, all I had to say to what you said about Holy Matrimony  being carnal, has been said by Devin. the theme of that point you made is what i was referring to in the first place. what is holy and what is carnal are not the same. I know I can not say anything more than what has already been said on this matter, but please forgive me, if what I have said was offending to you that was not my intent. you are right I need to practice humility, thus far I find I am a slave to my ego. May the Lord have mercy on me. please keep me in your prayers.

Sexual relations even in marriage is carnal, since anything of the flesh and not of the spirit is 'carnal'.  Anyway I found this which says it nicely, if we consider how strict our canons are in all our appetites during the Fast:  

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

The things you are saying are far more similar to Roman Catholic theology than Orthodox.

I hope you haven't been reading St. Augustine and especially not Thomas Aquinas.

Do you know our Orthodox cannons regarding our Fasts?  Well if you include in it the days a woman cannot have sex, all carnality goes out the window right then and there.   Grin

As for the Catholics, they are merely stating what the Orthodox and the early Church has always believed...something so many Orthodox in our new 'revised' Church do not want to know.  Roll Eyes

You are obviously wrong or the Orthodox would have become extinct long ago.  

Surely there are enough non-fasting, non-festal Mondays in the year upon which to have marital relations and conceive.

However, Zenovia is claiming sexuality is absolutely carnal, which is not an Orthodox idea. If it were carnal, it would inevitably be sinful...

Why did God tell us all to "be fruitful and multiply" if the very act of multiplying was carnal and sinful?

We fast from things like that, not because they are sinful and carnal but because we use the fasting to learn to control ourselves and let our souls control our bodies and control those feelings. They are good things, eating meat is good, drinking alcohol (in moderation) is okay, sexuality within marriage is okay. However, we have to let our soul control our passions...

Why in the world do you think God created us male and female? Why do you think he granted us our anatomy and other unique differences?

We aren't Roman Catholics, we never fell to the mis-guided teachings of St. Augustine, nor to the heretical teachings of Thomas Aquinas.
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« Reply #189 on: June 25, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?

Devin, for your sake of humor, I hope this was intentional. If so, I bow to you, dear sir.
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« Reply #190 on: June 25, 2012, 09:34:30 PM »

Monk dies in horrific manner.

Devin spews self-hating naive rhetoric.

At least he is consistent.


How is it self-hating?

Devin, for your sake of humor, I hope this was intentional. If so, I bow to you, dear sir.

I'm not a Roman Catholic, nor a Protestant, just look at my faith status: so I don't see how my comments are self-hating...