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Author Topic: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?  (Read 7934 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 09:41:18 PM »

I don't think St Tarcisius is "one example" at all but a signal to a practice that occurred much more widespread in the early church.  And by minor clergy I'm sure you meant acolyte which still isn't a priest or deacon.

First, isn't the status of that Saint as an acolyte in dispute? Second, in some times and places the early Church they let laymen take the eucharist home with them (besides other sacramental differences), so I'm not sure how much weight should be given to this or that practice--whether isolated event or even a regular occurence.

The first point is moot.  Acolyte or not, he wasn't a priest or deacon.

Some disagree. The Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent, for example, says he may (or may not) have been a deacon. You're gonna have to come up with a situation a bit more clear if you want to use it as an example.

Quote
As to the second point, contingent upon the first, laymen were allowed to take the Eucharist home with them in some times and places in the early church.  What more need be said?

Yet no one would be ok with that today. You can't build a theology (even a theology of practice) on abnormalities. But multiple abnormalities do show that not everything was consistent, and thus it is even more dangerous to pick and choose an example out of thin air and try to use it as an evidence that it's how things should be done today.

Seriously??

Tertullian, then:

"Are we not priests as well as laypersons?  It is written: 'He made us a kingdom of priests for God and his Father.'  The Church has by its authority established the distinction between hierarchy and people, and the hierarchy in turn divides into hierarchic degrees those who are consecrated to God.  Where there is no hierarchically organized assembly, you may baptize and preside at the eucharistic celebration and be your own priest; and in fact, whereever there are three, even if they be laypersons, there is the Church."  (De Exhortatione Castitatus)
was that before he became a Montanist, the original Pentecostals?
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 10:24:32 PM »


Perhaps I wasn't clear in my other post. I do not demand that everything be done as it was in the Early Church. I believe that what is done in today's Church must be in line with the philosophy of the Early Church; the entire thing must be one great continually connected experience. The Novus Ordo broke with what had come before it far too much to be a continual part of Tradition, it was something new. If they had just changed a prayer here or there, or had just translated it into the vernacular, it wouldn't have been a break with previous Liturgies. Furthermore the idea of being able to change everything up, to alter whatever one saw fit, is what was contrary to the paradigm of the Early Church. The Church is conservative, preserving more than what it alters. Of course practices change, and we need to respect that. To think we can turn back the clock and do things exactly as they were centuries ago is ridiculous, because it ignores what has happened in between and how The Church has answered it. I took issue with the Roman idea that one can do so, or can play chop shop with tradition, and still maintain the same faith.


Your criteria that "what is done in today's Church must be in line with the philosophy of the Early Church" is sketchy, at best.  What do you mean by early Church?  Are we talking about the first-second generation of Christians? Or are we talking about the liturgy of the 7th-9th centuries (where most of the stasis in both East and West occurs)?  You'll be pleased to know that the Novus Ordo fits every criteria of the Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians (10:16-17), the Didache (chs. 9-10), not to mention the commonly cited quotation from St. Justin Martyr.  These fragments that we are fortunate to have from the earliest of Christians are the only philosophy of the early Church and its liturgical life.

What you say is still inconsistent and hypocritical.  On the one hand you are willing to allow for the historical development of the Divine Liturgy, stating that "practices change and we need to respect that," but then, on the other hand, you are unwilling and unable to grant any development in the Roman rite, much less are you able to respect those developments despite the reformed liturgy being 'in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers' (Pope John Paul II).

The Mass, just like the Divine Liturgy, is an ongoing growing thing that has been celebrated in all times and in all cultures since Christ did those strange things during the Last Supper which was a Passover seder much like the Jews still celebrate which would have probably been not in Latin (perhaps Greek) but in Hebrew and Aramaic.
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2012, 10:46:34 PM »

Your criteria that "what is done in today's Church must be in line with the philosophy of the Early Church" is sketchy, at best.

An anonymous strange Roman Catholic online isn't happy with my opinion of his church?! Forgive me for not loosing sleep.

Quote
You'll be pleased to know that the Novus Ordo fits every criteria of the Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians (10:16-17), the Didache (chs. 9-10), not to mention the commonly cited quotation from St. Justin Martyr.  These fragments that we are fortunate to have from the earliest of Christians are the only philosophy of the early Church and its liturgical life.

Your inability to grasp the distinction between organic and inorganic growth in the life of a church astounds me.

Quote
What you say is still inconsistent and hypocritical.  On the one hand you are willing to allow for the historical development of the Divine Liturgy, stating that "practices change and we need to respect that," but then, on the other hand, you are unwilling and unable to grant any development in the Roman rite,

It's not, and watch who you call hypocritical. I don't mind if the Roman Mass changes. slowly and in response to the changing world. I do mind if my church writes a brand new Mass and then says "it's just like the really old masses!" which is bull. The oldest Liturgies we have are nothing like the Novus Ordo (check out the Liturgy of St. James) I will repeat, and use small words: If the Romans had changed a few prayers, had translated to the vernacular, had changed their liturgy in the same manner that all liturgies have changed since Christendom began and not concocted a whole new thing it would not have been a big deal. Instead they produced an entirely new liturgy, one which very clearly broke with several distinctive aspects of Christian tradition.

Quote
much less are you able to respect those developments despite the reformed liturgy being 'in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers' (Pope John Paul II).

A pope can say anything he likes, that doesn't make it true.

But, just like your "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" the Novus Ordo is, thankfully, not my problem anymore. You can have all the Liturgical dancers and "Gather us in" you like, I'll stick with The Church, and not be responding to you again.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:46:58 PM by Joseph Hazen » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2012, 11:10:16 PM »

Your criteria that "what is done in today's Church must be in line with the philosophy of the Early Church" is sketchy, at best.

An anonymous strange Roman Catholic online isn't happy with my opinion of his church?! Forgive me for not loosing sleep.

Quote
You'll be pleased to know that the Novus Ordo fits every criteria of the Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians (10:16-17), the Didache (chs. 9-10), not to mention the commonly cited quotation from St. Justin Martyr.  These fragments that we are fortunate to have from the earliest of Christians are the only philosophy of the early Church and its liturgical life.

Your inability to grasp the distinction between organic and inorganic growth in the life of a church astounds me.

Quote
What you say is still inconsistent and hypocritical.  On the one hand you are willing to allow for the historical development of the Divine Liturgy, stating that "practices change and we need to respect that," but then, on the other hand, you are unwilling and unable to grant any development in the Roman rite,

It's not, and watch who you call hypocritical. I don't mind if the Roman Mass changes. slowly and in response to the changing world. I do mind if my church writes a brand new Mass and then says "it's just like the really old masses!" which is bull. The oldest Liturgies we have are nothing like the Novus Ordo (check out the Liturgy of St. James) I will repeat, and use small words: If the Romans had changed a few prayers, had translated to the vernacular, had changed their liturgy in the same manner that all liturgies have changed since Christendom began and not concocted a whole new thing it would not have been a big deal. Instead they produced an entirely new liturgy, one which very clearly broke with several distinctive aspects of Christian tradition.

Quote
much less are you able to respect those developments despite the reformed liturgy being 'in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers' (Pope John Paul II).

A pope can say anything he likes, that doesn't make it true.

But, just like your "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" the Novus Ordo is, thankfully, not my problem anymore. You can have all the Liturgical dancers and "Gather us in" you like, I'll stick with The Church, and not be responding to you again.

I agree, Joseph.

Honestly, I feel like Catholics are being cheated ... cheated with a cheap imitation of a Lutheran Liturgy ... cheated because they think that they have the truth but they have been given a lie.

Lord have mercy.

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2012, 11:22:40 PM »

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.

If you don't want me calling you "schismatic" at every turn, please stop posting things like this.
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« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2012, 11:51:19 PM »

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.

If you don't want me calling you "schismatic" at every turn, please stop posting things like this.
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 12:13:43 AM »

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.

If you don't want me calling you "schismatic" at every turn, please stop posting things like this.
If you do carry through on this threat, even against the express wishes of our site owner, you will land yourself on post moderation so fast your head will spin. So don't even think about it.

So she is to continue portraying herself as a member of the Orthodox Church when, in fact, she is not?
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 12:19:10 AM »

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.

If you don't want me calling you "schismatic" at every turn, please stop posting things like this.
If you do carry through on this threat, even against the express wishes of our site owner, you will land yourself on post moderation so fast your head will spin. So don't even think about it.

So she is to continue portraying herself as a member of the Orthodox Church when, in fact, she is not?
1. In this post, our site owner gave you very clear instructions that you are not to engage in this behavior of calling Old Calendarists schismatics when their ecclesiastical status is irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Are you going to continue defying the wishes of our site owner when you know what the penalty for such defiance will be?

2. You are not to question moderatorial actions like this in public. You are required to use the private message system only for such questions. Question my directive in public like this again, and you will be placed on post moderation.
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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 12:30:10 AM »

I am so glad that I left the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I am praying for Catholics, as I know from personal experience how hard it is to repent and to accept the Orthodox Church as the True Catholic Church. During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.

If you don't want me calling you "schismatic" at every turn, please stop posting things like this.
If you do carry through on this threat, even against the express wishes of our site owner, you will land yourself on post moderation so fast your head will spin. So don't even think about it.

So she is to continue portraying herself as a member of the Orthodox Church when, in fact, she is not?
1. In this post, our site owner gave you very clear instructions that you are not to engage in this behavior of calling Old Calendarists schismatics when their ecclesiastical status is irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Are you going to continue defying the wishes of our site owner when you know what the penalty for such defiance will be?

2. You are not to question moderatorial actions like this in public. You are required to use the private message system only for such questions. Question my directive in public like this again, and you will be placed on post moderation.


I didn't call her a schismatic, nor am I questioning moderatorial actions.  I am merely saying that her behavior is deceptive.

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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 02:29:26 AM »

How did one receive Christ before the Creed was written?
Ummm one used another wording of the creed? Surely, the creed we have now was finished on the Council of Constantinople, but there were many local creeds before that, such as the so-called Apostles' Creed still used in Rome today.
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 02:38:06 AM »

Our Holy Apostles gave their lives for the Truth, Jesus Christ. Should we not be ready to give at least a small thing, like the right to post in this forum, for the truth? Christ is risen, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ, and anyone who calls himself a member of it, without being in communion with it, practices deception, both to the people he or she speaks to, and first of all to himself/herself. I am the first of sinners, surely much worse than all of you, but my conscience forces me to proclaim the truth. Let us call a spade a spade, a schismatic a schismatic, and ourselves and the whole world to repentance.

Maria and Fr. Anastasios, please, for the salvation of your own souls, return to the Orthodox Church, the Body of Christ, even if there are many more sinners in it than in Old Calendarist groups.


"Let us call a spade a spade..." - OK, you are trolling.

This forum allows EOs (both mainstream and hipster) and OOs (I'm not aware of any hipster OO groups) to participate on equal rights.

Each communion of Churches from these groups considers itself a one holy catholic and apostolic Church. You are not obliged to accept that but you also should not attack members of other groups without a reason. There are better places to discuss these issues than the thread about the NOM (did Fr. Anastasios's group accept NOM)?

"Our Holy Apostles gave their lives for the Truth, Jesus Christ. Should we not be ready to give at least a small thing" - yes, I will allow you to receive the crown of martyrdom if you want such. It would be much more severe than sufferings of the early Saints like crossed upside-down or boiled in hot oil - the times are harsher. You are receiving a 40-day-long warning for discussing moderator's decision in public.

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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 09:58:51 AM »

Please keep to the topic of the Novus Ordo Mass. Anyone else who attempts to derail this topic will receive an escalation on their current status.

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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 10:55:50 AM »

Your inability to grasp the distinction between organic and inorganic growth in the life of a church astounds me.

I don't mind if the Roman Mass changes. slowly and in response to the changing world. I do mind if my church writes a brand new Mass and then says "it's just like the really old masses!" which is bull.

So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?

Quote
A pope can say anything he likes, that doesn't make it true.

Have you read Joseph Ratzinger's "Spirit of the Liturgy"?  Ratzinger was quite critical of the Novus Ordo, but his criticism nowhere concerns the fact that the Novus Ordo is not in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers.  The arrogance of your statement that "A pope can say anything he like..." is apparent.  It is plainly obvious to me that it is more convenient for you at this point to believe some delusion than to admit that anyone, especially a pope, has more knowledge than you concerning matters relating to liturgical development.

Furthermore, statistically speaking, there is really only a minute fraction of dissidents who share yours and other's opinion concerning the illegitimacy of the NO and its rupture with tradition.  Even Roman Catholic professors of liturgical history (see Enrico Mazza's excellent books) have maintained fidelity.
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 11:02:29 AM »

Question: since the RCC instituted the new translation of the Mass, is there any general sentiment from the Orthodox as to whether the new one is 'better'? I am not talking about the subject of Communion, which is obviously a different matter. Just wonder if anybody's heard of any Orthodox bishop or writer of note who has commented on the new version of the RCC Mass. Thanks.
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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 11:52:40 AM »

So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?

Why can't you have traditional Mass in English?
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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 12:03:57 PM »

Ratzinger was quite critical of the Novus Ordo, but his criticism nowhere concerns the fact that the Novus Ordo is not in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers. 
But it's like a frankenstein version, dredged up from the forgotten depths of centuries past and imperfectly re-created by the top authority and foisted upon the laity.
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« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »

Ratzinger was quite critical of the Novus Ordo, but his criticism nowhere concerns the fact that the Novus Ordo is not in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers. 
But it's like a frankenstein version, dredged up from the forgotten depths of centuries past and imperfectly re-created by the top authority and foisted upon the laity.

While I think even Paul VI would agree that the initial reform of the liturgy was poorly executed, I don't think there is any objective standard for defining the NO as "a frankenstein version" "imperfectly re-created."  If you consider the DL to be the hallmark of Christian worship, that's one thing, and to consider it the only proper worship as Orthodox Christians makes perfect sense, but as I've demonstrated above, the NO keeps faith with the earliest of Christian documents concerning the celebration of the Eucharist.  In my opinion, based on the sources I've cited, the NO is closer to the liturgy of the apostles than the DL is.  I think Wybrew's history of the development of the Orthodox liturgy demonstrates this adequately enough.  Show me where St. Paul prayed the Litany of Peace or any of the current prayers used in the DL outside of the Psalms?  I respect that the DL was an organic development through the centuries, attempting to keep the core philosophy of earliest Christianity in sight.  I just think it's hypocritical when the so-called defenders of the Ancient Faith criticize an attempt to return to Christianity's roots.
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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2012, 12:32:11 PM »

So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?

Why can't you have traditional Mass in English?

Well, the Novus Ordo was supposed to be a translation of the old, but it didn't turn out that way- the rendition came out in the 1960s and was seen as of pretty bad quality by most traditionalist RCC folks. The old text of the Latin Mass was therefore used for traditional Mass, if you had a dispensation from the bishop- which was pretty tough to get, as I heard. Thus most parishes wound up using the 1960s English text, so if you wanted to hear the 'old' Mass, you had to find a church that held it in Latin.

The New Translation of the Roman Rite RCC Mass came out last year, and it is available in the local vernacular- so you can have it in English or anything else the parish needs.

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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2012, 02:31:02 PM »

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?
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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2012, 02:38:37 PM »

Having been brought up Catholic (Conservative Novus Ordo), and then having been involved in the Catholic Traditional Movement, I can say I much preferred the Traditional Latin or "Tridentine" Mass. Without going in to great detail, let's just say there are multiple and grave issues inherent in the Novus Ordo, and in the Catholic Church in general since Vatican II. The Pslamist says "Worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness...", I just never got a "beauty of holiness" from a Novus Ordo. The best Novus Ordo's I've seen are Pope Benedict's, EWTN's, and The NOM as offered at Holy Rosary in Indianapolis (interestingly the priest also offers the Traditional Mass daily as well). All in all, thanks, but no thanks!

While I understand the traditionalists point about maintaining latin (unity and the Decrees of Trent), I also feel that perhaps a reverent vernacular translation would have been in order perhaps leaving some latin hymnody and a few prayers (Pater Noster, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) as many ethnic Orthodox churches do now (75% English 25% Greek, Slavonic, etc). This is more in keeping with the older tradition of the church anyway. As for translation most Catholics had a Missal with latin on one page and the english on the opposite. It was BCP or "King's/Elizabethan" English. It was/is about Faith, not the Latin.

Now that I'm Orthodox, I rarely think or delve much in to the issues of Catholicism these days. I do pray for a return of tradition and sanity in the RCC. I have many friends and relatives who Catholics, and I pray for them. I am also grateful to the good priests and sisters who taught me about Our Lord, Our Lady, and the faith. I harbor no grudge or ill will toward Catholics. As I said before, I feel that rather than leaving Catholicism by becoming Orthodox, I've rather embraced it in its most full and traditional undiluted form!





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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2012, 02:40:06 PM »

Well said.
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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2012, 02:56:47 PM »

AI've demonstrated above, the NO keeps faith with the earliest of Christian documents concerning the celebration of the Eucharist.
Not really. The Didache, for example, is a Jewish proselyte manual modified by Christians. We don't know if it was ever even used. The reason why the Eucharistic prayer is different from what we normally see is because they took a jewish prayer and modded it a little to keep in line with the rest of the document.

As for Justin Martyr's account, it describes the portions relevant for Marcus Aurelius to understand Christians weren't cannibals.

Quote
In my opinion, based on the sources I've cited, the NO is closer to the liturgy of the apostles than the DL is.
That's like saying a square block of granite is closer to Michelangelo's original King David than today's statue, because Michelangelo started with a square block of marble.

We know next to nothing about the liturgy of the apostles.

Show me where St. Paul prayed the Litany of Peace or any of the current prayers used in the DL outside of the Psalms?
Show me where in the Synoptics Jesus says he's the Bread of Life.

Quote
I respect that the DL was an organic development through the centuries, attempting to keep the core philosophy of earliest Christianity in sight.  I just think it's hypocritical when the so-called defenders of the Ancient Faith criticize an attempt to return to Christianity's roots.

The criticism is against top-down reconstructionism, whether done by Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Messianic Jews, Tibetan Buddhists, etc.
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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2012, 03:32:29 PM »

So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?

Why can't you have traditional Mass in English?

As I recall, when I was a child back in 1962 or 1963, when I was in the Archdiocese of San Francisco or the Diocese of Oakland (cannot remember which one as the SF Diocese was split around that time), the Catholic bishop allowed us to have the traditional Mass in English. Then we suddenly switched to the NOM, which left a lot of folks upset after the novelty faded which only encouraged more innovations. The modus operandi was to find any type of mass that would keep youth in the parishes: Guitar NOM masses, Clown NOM masses, Beer NOM masses, and even Bikini NOM masses at the beach.

If we could have kept the traditional Mass in English (using the 1962 Missal), I think there would have been less problems. However, the blasted ICEL wrecked everything by appropriating the Lutheran Liturgy and then revised it to please the feminists by using gender neutral language. When certain bishops insisted that readers substitute "her" for "him," and "she" for "he," Apostles were often referred to as women. Sheesh.

The proper use of pronouns are important. Therefore, when the political correctness squads object to the use of masculine nouns and pronouns like king, lord, master, he, him, his, then the liturgy and scripture readings become ambiguous and ludicrous with the result that any sacredness in the Liturgy is destroyed.

When my husband and I encountered the song "Her name is Jesus" which was being sung at our local Catholic parish back in 1993, then we finally bolted and joined the Melkite Church. We would have gone to the Maronites (my ancestry) but they had long ago been latinized and even offered the NOM at their parish.
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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2012, 04:26:08 PM »

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?
Yes.
Comparison of Tridentine and NO side by side.
http://www.getholy.com/files/Side_by_Side2.pdf

Translation is a seperate issue and many(most?) of ICEL's old translations stinks.
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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2012, 04:45:41 PM »

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?
Yes.
Comparison of Tridentine and NO side by side.
http://www.getholy.com/files/Side_by_Side2.pdf

Translation is a seperate issue and many(most?) of ICEL's old translations stinks.

I agree with you that ICELs NO translations stink. Was this the nasty odor to which Pope Paul VI referenced as "the smoke/odor of Satan"?

There are apparently two different Latin Masses:

1. The Tridentine Latin Mass (1962)

2. The NO Latin Mass from which the English NO Mass has been rendered by the ICEL.

When I was a Roman Catholic, the Catholic bishop allowed a couple of parishes to have the NO Latin Mass once on Sundays, but he absolutely forbade the Tridentine Latin Mass to be celebrated. Later, he allowed one Tridentine Latin Mass of 1962 to be celebrated in only one parish, but carefully rotated the selected parish from one end of his diocese to the other so that devout faithful would have to spend one hour traveling to find the Mass each Sunday. Then to discourage the faithful from attending these Traditional Latin Masses, he would ask that the priest distribute communion from the NO Mass reserved hosts in the common ciborium found in the tabernacle. IOW, people who attended those Latin Masses were not getting communion from the Latin Mass but from a NO mass.

Personally, since 1973, I never attended the Latin Masses whether Traditional 1962 version or the NO version. I did attend several Tridentine Latin Masses at 6:00 AM back during the early 1970s, but the priest said a very rapid Mass which took him only 20 minutes, and he often forgot that I was even present and thus forgot to give me communion.
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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2012, 04:51:20 PM »

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?

No. "Latin Mass" only defines the language, and many kinds of masses can be celebrated in Latin. There is Latin NOM, there is the Tridentine ("old") mass, there are Sarum, Mozarabic, etc.
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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2012, 04:57:54 PM »

At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.
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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2012, 05:00:27 PM »

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?
Yes.

Are the NOM and Latin Mass really the same thing?

No.

Hmm...
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2012, 06:16:20 PM »

I guess it depends what you mean by Latin Mass.  The NO can be Latin as the Tridentine must be.  The Mozarabic and Ambrosian Masses can also be in Latin.  When most people in the US refer to the Latin Mass they mean the Trindentine.  Are the NO and Trindentine the same thing?  Essentailly yes, I say.  Look at the link and judge for yourself. 
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2012, 07:56:38 PM »

At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.

I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2012, 08:04:24 PM »

At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.

I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Thanks for this information.
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2012, 08:21:52 PM »

I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Can you provide some more info on these Scotsmen who considered being Orthodox? Thanks.
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2012, 10:29:21 PM »

I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Can you provide some more info on these Scotsmen who considered being Orthodox? Thanks.

Here are some excerpts of their correspondence: http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/325/texts/nonjurors.htm
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« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2012, 11:54:32 PM »

At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.

Achronos goes to St. Augustine I think.
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« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2012, 06:39:32 AM »

I found the Ukrainian Catholic document below, which compares Eastern and Western liturgies, interesting:





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« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2012, 06:47:15 AM »

Apotheoun,

I am not sure about Greek Catholics, but as Orthodox Christians, we emphasize Christ's divinity and humanity equally, we also emphasize the oneness of God and his three persons equally etc. and I think that is what all Christians should do.
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« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2012, 09:10:28 PM »

I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Can you provide some more info on these Scotsmen who considered being Orthodox? Thanks.

Here are some excerpts of their correspondence: http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/325/texts/nonjurors.htm

Interesting. A shame they were so protestantized as to deny the Real Presence, though.
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« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2012, 09:30:13 PM »

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?
As far as the changes/differences?
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« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2012, 07:41:59 AM »

So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?

Why can't you have traditional Mass in English?

That did exist briefly. I can't tell you too much about it, it was before my time.
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« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2012, 07:42:47 AM »

The novus ordo is a protestantized liturgy.

If you can find a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal, please do so. The only copy I found and studied back in 1995 was tossed into the fireplace by my then Catholic priest-confessor who also stated that he would never celebrate the Novus Ordo again. 

Interesting. So, I take it he was okay with the Novus Ordo before that?
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« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2012, 08:09:07 AM »



. The Western hymnography is fairly poor than Eastern.

Hope I got the quote right. This is a matter of taste. Compare chanting to the masses in Latin by the great western composers IMO, no comparison, but then again I can't see what people saw in disco music.
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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2012, 08:32:27 AM »

but then again I can't see what people saw in disco music.

Great Scott! Have you gone mad?  Shocked
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« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2012, 08:20:58 AM »


It is a weak argument to find one example of a possible Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and hold him up as an excuse and validation for a practice now found in practically every Roman church in North America, particularly when his hagiography describes him as a member of the minor clergy and clearly says nobody else was available to take Holy Communion to prisoners.
.

I don't think St Tarcisius is "one example" at all but a signal to a practice that occurred much more widespread in the early church.  And by minor clergy I'm sure you meant acolyte which still isn't a priest or deacon.

...and is not a layperson either. At any rate I agree with Asteriktos. We're not in the same situation as the Early Church anymore, not facing the persecutions they were or the other difficulties, and we don't really have proof that this was widespread.

n the Early Church the catechumenate was long and rigorous and the penalties for sin severe, and the Eucharist was not taken lightly, even if for a time laymen took the Eucharist home.  It is very different from the Novus Ordo where there are no obligatory communion preparation prayers, the hour Fast means you can just about eat a sandwich on the way to mass, and the use of women in the altar and distributing communion is an unheard of innovation. Add to the mix Roman Catholic priests who don't own a cassock, or know how to use incense, or amend the prayers in the order of mass to suit the congregation and you end up with Protestantism.
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« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2012, 08:34:32 AM »

I remember some young people coming in my RC Church, chanting with guitars for the mass... I felt like.... Am I in a Catholic church or a Protestant one  Huh  Cry
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« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2012, 02:52:10 PM »


The Creed cannot be replaced by a song.  However, it is only called for on Sundays and Feastdays, not weekday Masses.
I've been to Catholic churches with no creed on sunday.

It may be liturgical abuse.

As an ex RC I promise you that no creed is an abuse. It is not optional.

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