Author Topic: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?  (Read 32132 times)

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #180 on: July 31, 2017, 09:26:37 PM »
He's got it down. He can go Ad Populum for the young whippersnappers and Ad Orientem for the old timers.
Actually, looking more closely at the altar steps, I actually think that the base rotates, probably like those panoramic restaurants or a merry go round.  :D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 09:35:59 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #181 on: July 31, 2017, 09:34:04 PM »
He's got it down. He can go Ad Populum for the young whippersnappers and Ad Orientem for the old timers.
Actually, looking more closely at the altar steps, I actually think that the base rotates, probably like those panoramic restaurants or a merry go round.
Oh, well that's just tacky.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2017, 11:20:13 PM »
leave it to people who actually researched the infiltration of masonry
Can you please write about this a bit?

No. Just no.   :P ::)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #183 on: August 01, 2017, 03:54:27 AM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
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Offline servulus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #184 on: August 01, 2017, 04:06:48 AM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.
I've heard that if the Roman Catholic Church returns to Orthodoxy that the N.O. Mass might be an issue. Maybe this is why Eastern Orthodox are concerned about it.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #185 on: August 01, 2017, 12:18:43 PM »
leave it to people who actually researched the infiltration of masonry
Can you please write about this a bit?

No. Just no.   :P ::)

+10000000
admit you don't know what you are talking about and I will spare you

Offline wynd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #186 on: August 01, 2017, 02:20:52 PM »
I've heard that if the Roman Catholic Church returns to Orthodoxy that the N.O. Mass might be an issue. Maybe this is why Eastern Orthodox are concerned about it.

There have always been differences in western vs. eastern divine services. The Novus Ordo (both in and of itself and the way it's usually celebrated) are too different IMO to be explained away as legitimate variances in the global church.

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2017, 02:34:58 PM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.
I've heard that if the Roman Catholic Church returns to Orthodoxy that the N.O. Mass might be an issue. Maybe this is why Eastern Orthodox are concerned about it.
If we get that close to reunification, then its a done deal already. Just wait a few minutes and Rome will change it.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2017, 03:00:10 PM »
Novus Ordo made me really dissapointed with the Roman Catholic Church. I didn't expect such a violation of the Holy Tradition. God directed us how to worship Him in the Holy Scriptures themselves. I love so much the Latin Rite. But Novus Ordo is a BIG and EMPHATIC NO!
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #189 on: August 26, 2017, 07:46:32 AM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.

I am Orthodox and never was Roman Catholic, but still I care for two reasons.

1. Because the NOMs I have seen in practice in Switzerland and Germany have often been so far off that it hurts my stomach (I heard it's the same in the US, at least partially. In Poland and Italy, what I saw much better though).
2. Because the NOM, especially the extreme variants with guitars etc., destroys any sense of liturgical piety, and therefore also of understanding for Orthodoxy among the Roman Catholics.

The Extraordinary Form also isn't pure from an Orthodox point of view. But it is better, much better... why is Pope Francis so against a "reform of the reform"? Actually, I believe only a "reform of the reform" can save the NOM. It would mean clear guidelines against excesses. Otherwise, things maybe become in the whole world as they already are in France. Most RC become Atheists and only the adherents of the Extraordinary Form stay strong and growing.

Here in Switzerland, we are witnessing the same, although it is going more slowly. In some cantons, the NOM, hardly attended by young people anyway, has failed to produce priestly vocations for years. Instead of masses, often there is a non-Eucharistic Novus Ordu service, conducted by married deacons or even female pastoral referents. The FSSPX seminary in Ecône is thriving, though...

Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #190 on: August 26, 2017, 08:24:22 AM »
My guess from having known some born Orthodox is most don't think about Catholic services. Some of them who have seen the Novus Ordo don't like it. I agree, though of course I believe it's a real Mass. It's interesting and moving (and true) that the Orthodox see a reconciled West using variations of my traditional Mass, what the Western Rite Orthodox use. Yes, the bad old Tridentine Mass as the basis and bridge for unity. I like it.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #191 on: August 26, 2017, 10:08:16 AM »
My guess from having known some born Orthodox is most don't think about Catholic services. Some of them who have seen the Novus Ordo don't like it. I agree, though of course I believe it's a real Mass. It's interesting and moving (and true) that the Orthodox see a reconciled West using variations of my traditional Mass, what the Western Rite Orthodox use. Yes, the bad old Tridentine Mass as the basis and bridge for unity. I like it.

I suspect after his recent comments, given his desire for ecumenical reconciliation, if Pope Francis realized the extent to which his beloved Novus Ordo alarms us, he would throw a fit.

Here is a book not to read: Vatican II: Its Impact on Eastern Orthodox Liturgy

Aside from the fact that the chapter attributing ROCOR's liturgical maximalism and episcopal preference for ancient chant over the Obikhod exaggerates the latter and falsely attributes the former to the influence of Vatican II, albeit not as a negative reaction, the book praises to a grotesque degree the grotesque liturgical changes at New Skete.

But what is more interesting is that the author continually throughoutnthe book, in at times it seems every other paragraph, speaks of the need to modify the liturgy to be more inclusive of the laity, allowimg each Christian to exercise their "threefold ministry as Priest, Prophet and King," the author does not once, that I can recall, refer to the ordained Priests of the Orthodox Church as Priests.   Nor does he even use the word Hieromonk in describing the liturgy of his beloved New Skete.   Rather, he refere in all cases to the Priest as "the liturgical presider", the "liturgical celebrant" or various other terms.  This smacks of anti-clericalism; I believe he also criticizes ROCOR for clericalism implicitly.  Quite a nauseating book, that.

By a Dr. Nicholas E. Denysenko, so everyone can avoid reading it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 10:10:00 AM by Alpha60 »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #192 on: August 26, 2017, 10:25:14 AM »
I suspect after his recent comments, given his desire for ecumenical reconciliation, if Pope Francis realized the extent to which his beloved Novus Ordo alarms us, he would throw a fit.

I suspect that, despite his recent comments, the pope doesn't spend nearly as much time thinking about the TLM as his detractors fear he does.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #193 on: August 26, 2017, 10:25:51 AM »
A lot of the old secret societies by the way dropped the ritual and local chapters and became essentially mutual, or in some cases, de-mutualized, life insurance providers.  Since that aspect, life insurance, was a major reason for being a member of the Woodsmen and other such groups.

Freemasonry takes itself a bit more seriously, which is probably why it survives.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2017, 10:59:17 AM »
My guess from having known some born Orthodox is most don't think about Catholic services.

Oh believe me, they don't think about it until they see it. One of my acquaintances is a Ukrainian scholar of comparative religion, and parishioner of the UOC (MP). In Ukraine, she saw Greek Catholic liturgies, as well a conservative kind of NOM with Polish Catholics. But when she saw the NOM in Germany, as well as "Liberal" Vatican 2 fetishism etc., she was deeply shocked.

She had read and respected writings of Prof. Ratzinger / Pope Benedict before and expected to find something quite different.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2017, 11:02:33 AM »
I suspect after his recent comments, given his desire for ecumenical reconciliation, if Pope Francis realized the extent to which his beloved Novus Ordo alarms us, he would throw a fit.

You're right. As others have noted, the approach to new services that disparages the old ones is anti-ecumenical in that it's anti-Eastern. I suspect such churchmen don't really care. I think even ecumenism as it was understood 50 years ago has gone out of fashion; nobody thinks the churches are getting back together, at least any time soon.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2017, 11:37:20 AM »
As others have noted, the approach to new services that disparages the old ones is anti-ecumenical in that it's anti-Eastern. I suspect such churchmen don't really care.
Or they're not aware. If you see Pope Francis' speech to Roman Catholics in Georgia, he speaks about ecumenism in a way as if he had not heard or at least not understood Orthodox objections.


I think even ecumenism as it was understood 50 years ago has gone out of fashion; nobody thinks the churches are getting back together, at least any time soon.
If that's nobody who is aware of the facts, I agree. But I have heard so many naive statements on these issues. For example on the occasion of the Havanna meeting.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #197 on: August 26, 2017, 12:21:43 PM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.
Well, as an Eastern Catholic, I care about the appalling disaster, liturgically and doctrinally, of the Novus Ordo. The liturgy is the primary means of teaching theology to the faithful (something that the Vetus Ordo failed too, but I digress), and this is accomplished through not so much the homily but the worship.  The fruits of the liturgical reforms of the Roman rite are in plain sight.


I care about it because it's a Church in communion with mine.  I care about it because I care about other fellow Catholics spiritual growth.  I care about it because there aren't as many Maronite parishes in the country as Roman ones and every now and then I have to endure the Novus Ordo.


As others said here, I had great hopes for Pope BXVI's reform of the reform, but it's all been aborted by Pope FI.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #198 on: August 26, 2017, 01:06:54 PM »
I suspect after his recent comments, given his desire for ecumenical reconciliation, if Pope Francis realized the extent to which his beloved Novus Ordo alarms us, he would throw a fit.

You're right. As others have noted, the approach to new services that disparages the old ones is anti-ecumenical in that it's anti-Eastern. I suspect such churchmen don't really care. I think even ecumenism as it was understood 50 years ago has gone out of fashion; nobody thinks the churches are getting back together, at least any time soon.

I think 'liberal' popes are more interested in ecumenism with protestants, and try to move the Roman Catholic Church in a more protestant direction; while more 'traditionalist popes' - like BXVI - are more interested in dialogue with the Orthodox and try to move the RCC in a more Orthodox direction.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 01:13:53 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #199 on: August 26, 2017, 01:08:54 PM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.
Well, as an Eastern Catholic, I care about the appalling disaster, liturgically and doctrinally, of the Novus Ordo.

I've been to two Novus Ordo masses in my life. One was quite good - celebrated ad orientem with Gregorian chant and incense. The other, well, wasn't quite as good. You wouldn't have believed that the two masses were even in the same category.

I guess my point is that it's difficult to generalise about the NO.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 01:11:01 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2017, 01:34:07 PM »
I wonder why the Eastern Orthodox should care about the Novus Ordo at all. It's a Roman issue. Let the Romans deal with it. Why even think about this? It's of no concern whatsoever for Orthodoxy. Also, I don't understand why Catholics keep asking the Orthodox about this.  ;D
Let East and West each take care on their own that their respective liturgies stay pure.

I do care because the vast majority of the most important people for me (my mother, sister, friends) are RCs, many of them are pious, so it's from care for them and... From time to time I go to Novus Ordo Mass.


Oh believe me, they don't think about it until they see it. One of my acquaintances is a Ukrainian scholar of comparative religion, and parishioner of the UOC (MP). In Ukraine, she saw Greek Catholic liturgies, as well a conservative kind of NOM with Polish Catholics.

Well, as an Eastern Catholic, I care about the appalling disaster, liturgically and doctrinally, of the Novus Ordo. The liturgy is the primary means of teaching theology to the faithful (something that the Vetus Ordo failed too, but I digress), and this is accomplished through not so much the homily but the worship.  Th

I know some even quite conservative Polish RCs that are much in favour for  NOM served very properly and with great attention. Mainly because there was no interaction between the priest and the faitful. Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers! So from where/what could they learn theology? They weren't allowed to say many parts of the Mass, sometimes even including Our Father prayer except the last sentence. There were also popular silent Masses, so there was neither thelogy for fathiful at all, nor community prayer. There was too much focus - many times without explanation - how to keep fingers and other such detaiils while serving Mass.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2017, 01:54:04 PM »
Well, as an Eastern Catholic, I care about the appalling disaster, liturgically and doctrinally, of the Novus Ordo.
I guess my point is that it's difficult to generalise about the NO.
No, it's not.  The typical Novus Ordo is not shocking, but you probably experienced two instances of outliers.  Still, even the typical cases fall short liturgically and doctrinally as but a poor form of both.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 01:56:59 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2017, 01:57:56 PM »
I guess my point is that it's difficult to generalise about the NO.
No, it's not.  The typical Novus Ordo is not shocking, but you probably experienced two instances of outliers.

Around here NO masses look and feel like Lutheran masses with a few Marian prayets added hear and there. Not shocking but I feel kind of sorry for them thinking what treasures they've lost.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2017, 02:02:51 PM »
Mainly because there was no interaction between the priest and the faitful. Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers! So from where/what could they learn theology? They weren't allowed to say many parts of the Mass, sometimes even including Our Father prayer except the last sentence. There were also popular silent Masses, so there was neither thelogy for fathiful at all, nor community prayer. There was too much focus - many times without explanation - how to keep fingers and other such detaiils while serving Mass.
Exactly!  I actually speculate that this, the lack of transmitting theology to the faithful, is the reason why the devils who invented the Novus Ordo liturgy came up with it, in spite of growing up with nothing but the most strict Tridentine liturgy.  Which begs the question why traditional Catholics insist on the Extraordinary Form almost superstitiously, when it failed to protect the Roman Church from the horrors of the Novus Ordo.


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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2017, 02:05:51 PM »
No, it's not.  The typical Novus Ordo is not shocking, but you probably experienced two instances of outliers.

Around here NO masses look and feel like Lutheran masses with a few Marian prayets added hear and there. Not shocking but I feel kind of sorry for them thinking what treasures they've lost.
Very true.  Even the typical Anglo Catholic liturgy at an Anglican parish has preserved most of those treasures.  Of course, it still lacks the reason of being of any liturgy, the Eucharist, which at least the Novus Ordo unquestionably has.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »
Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers!

God is in the silence.

They weren't allowed to say many parts of the Mass, sometimes even including Our Father prayer except the last sentence.

The lack of interaction was one of the good bits of the Tridentine mass. You could focus on the liturgy and on prayer without having to be mindful of when to say what. The 'et cum spiritu tuo' every now and then is more than enough.

Don't even get me started on the kiss of peace. Having the liturgy interrupted in order to shake hands is plain weird.

Mainly because there was no interaction between the priest and the faitful. Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers! So from where/what could they learn theology?

Doesn't the Polish Orthodox Church celebrate in Old Slavonic?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:19:08 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2017, 02:15:52 PM »
I can not say I am surprised by the responses in this thread; Novus Ordo is the greatest embarrassment that Catholicism has accomplished in a long time.  Almost every NO liturgy I've been to has featured hand-holding, guitar-playing, and so forth.  One in particular did not even use the new Catholic hymnals (which are simply terrible) but instead favored songs such as "Open the Eyes of My Heart, Lord", "How Great Is Our God", "Let It Rain", and others.  This is Catholicism now, I fear for where it will be in 20 or 30 years.

I was talking to a Catholic deacon once, and when the topic of the Novus Ordo came up I could not help but express my absolute disgust in the service and my disappointment in the Church for adopting it.  He, on the other hand, claimed emphatically that the Novus Ordo mass was a return to the way that early Christians worshiped.  That claim might fool a hippie Boomer, but not I.  Sure, the Novus Ordo is in the vernacular, but such a shallow comparison ignoring all of the other critical changes is intentional dishonesty, and an insult to the collective intelligence of the people who favor traditional worship rather than this Protestant, cookie-cutter, artificial mass which is devoid of any spiritual value.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2017, 02:21:14 PM »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2017, 02:21:29 PM »
... this Protestant, cookie-cutter, artificial mass which is devoid of any spiritual value.
That's what happens when scholars are allowed to call the shots.  But I wouldn't call the Novus Ordo devoid of any spiritual value, just impoverished.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:21:51 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #209 on: August 26, 2017, 02:26:22 PM »
  He, on the other hand, claimed emphatically that the Novus Ordo mass was a return to the way that early Christians worshiped. 

It's curious how reactionary arguments are used by 'progressive' Christians to argue for a more accessible and modern liturgy.

Offline Alpo

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #210 on: August 26, 2017, 02:33:11 PM »
Don't even get me started on the kiss of peace. Having the liturgy interrupted in order to shake hands is plain weird.

Not fan of that either but to be fair we have a lot more interruptions ourselves. People wandering around to venerate icons, kissing after receiving the Eucharist, somewhat random shouting of paschal greeting... There's quite a lot of those actually.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:33:41 PM by Alpo »
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #211 on: August 26, 2017, 02:47:32 PM »
Don't even get me started on the kiss of peace. Having the liturgy interrupted in order to shake hands is plain weird.

Not fan of that either but to be fair we have a lot more interruptions ourselves. People wandering around to venerate icons, kissing after receiving the Eucharist, somewhat random shouting of paschal greeting... There's quite a lot of those actually.

True, but that isn't awkward.

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2017, 02:49:44 PM »
Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers!

God is in the silence.
I've heard that in some (at least old) Orthodox liturgical books there is written, that [at services] there is no silence in the Orthodox Church.

They weren't allowed to say many parts of the Mass, sometimes even including Our Father prayer except the last sentence.

The lack of interaction was one of the good bits of the Tridentine mass. You could focus on the liturgy and on prayer without having to be mindful of when to say what. The 'et cum spiritu tuo' every now and then is more than enough.
Eastern Liturgies are based on the common worship, leaded by priest, that's a shepherd, so there is an interaction. I think that's one of the general Christianity roots.

Don't even get me started on the kiss of peace. Having the liturgy interrupted in order to shake hands is plain weird.
OOs have maintaed the kiss of peace. As for EOs, it's practiced at some parishes, and it should be. Now we have it only for Pascha, and in practice, for other feasts. It's, again, an ancient Christian practice. It gives the feeling of the feast joy, of the Liturgy joy, that all of us make one community.

Mainly because there was no interaction between the priest and the faitful. Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers! So from where/what could they learn theology?

Doesn't the Polish Orthodox Church celebrate in Old Slavonic?
Yes, the vast majority of the parishes celebrate in Church Slavonic. But the texts are pronunced loudly (in the Tridentine Mass not), at many parishes the readings are also in Polish, and, Polish is a Slavonic langauge, so for a Slav it's much easier to understand Church Slavonic than Latin.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2017, 03:07:25 PM »
I know some even quite conservative Polish RCs that are much in favour for  NOM served very properly and with great attention.

That's why I said, the NOM can be "saved" if proper measures are taken to stop abuse.

Maybe the Pope doesn't realise how bad it is in some places. His own masses look not bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gazna4HcU18

Compare to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WFjoQL3wog
(from 1:06)

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #214 on: August 26, 2017, 03:12:51 PM »
The typical Novus Ordo

How chimerical. 
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Offline michaelus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #215 on: August 26, 2017, 03:14:26 PM »
I know some even quite conservative Polish RCs that are much in favour for  NOM served very properly and with great attention.

That's why I said, the NOM can be "saved" if proper measures are taken to stop abuse.

Maybe the Pope doesn't realise how bad it is in some places. His own masses look not bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gazna4HcU18

Compare to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WFjoQL3wog
(from 1:06)

You may think that Benedict XVI made it look good, but Francis does the opposite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-1LLFbZJCA
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #216 on: August 26, 2017, 03:20:27 PM »
You may think that Benedict XVI made it look good, but Francis does the opposite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-1LLFbZJCA

The Pope in my link also was Francis. But I am quite convinced that if an Orthodox Patriarch did such things as Pope Francis did in the video you linked, at least one other Patriarch would break communion with him... however this is by far not the worst I have seen of the NOM. And actually I liked that they did the kiss of the peace rather than that odd handshake.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #217 on: August 26, 2017, 03:23:13 PM »
You may think that Benedict XVI made it look good, but Francis does the opposite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-1LLFbZJCA
I was there and at times it was difficult.  However, immediately after Holy Communion, there was such a silence that the only noise were the waves.  Given that there were over 3 million people at mass then, the silence was spoke more boldly than all the attempts at debasing the liturgy on this video.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #218 on: August 26, 2017, 03:25:25 PM »
Not fan of that either but to be fair we have a lot more interruptions ourselves. People wandering around to venerate icons, kissing after receiving the Eucharist, somewhat random shouting of paschal greeting... There's quite a lot of those actually.
And I find it awesome!  At least to me such spontaneous manifestations of piety are signs of devotion to the Faith, which is a very good thing.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #219 on: August 26, 2017, 03:26:49 PM »
God is in the silence.
Where isn't he?  But in public prayer (i.e., liturgy) silence shouldn't be present most of the time.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2017, 03:31:09 PM »
Not fan of that either but to be fair we have a lot more interruptions ourselves. People wandering around to venerate icons, kissing after receiving the Eucharist, somewhat random shouting of paschal greeting... There's quite a lot of those actually.
And I find it awesome!  At least to me such spontaneous manifestations of piety are signs of devotion to the Faith, which is a very good thing.

For me it's one if signs that the faith is vivid, authentic, that relation with God and His people is closr.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2017, 03:45:17 PM »
Not fan of that either but to be fair we have a lot more interruptions ourselves. People wandering around to venerate icons, kissing after receiving the Eucharist, somewhat random shouting of paschal greeting... There's quite a lot of those actually.
And I find it awesome!  At least to me such spontaneous manifestations of piety are signs of devotion to the Faith, which is a very good thing.

I like it too but it's kind of double-standard to critisize for EOs to criticize interruptions of mass. We do it all the time.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:45:52 PM by Alpo »
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2017, 12:38:22 AM »
Faithful didn't hear most of the prayers!

God is in the silence.
I've heard that in some (at least old) Orthodox liturgical books there is written, that [at services] there is no silence in the Orthodox Church.

Filled with prayer, not catching up on Russian gossip.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #224 on: August 27, 2017, 05:58:24 PM »
No, it's not.  The typical Novus Ordo is not shocking, but you probably experienced two instances of outliers.

Around here NO masses look and feel like Lutheran masses with a few Marian prayets added hear and there. Not shocking but I feel kind of sorry for them thinking what treasures they've lost.
Very true.  Even the typical Anglo Catholic liturgy at an Anglican parish has preserved most of those treasures.  Of course, it still lacks the reason of being of any liturgy, the Eucharist, which at least the Novus Ordo unquestionably has.
Anglo Catholic liturgy doesn't have Eucharist? I've never been to one but I always thought they did. This would be the same liturgy used by those who joined the Anglican ordinariate prior to their conversion, right?