Author Topic: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?  (Read 34630 times)

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2013, 04:41:30 AM »
That's also my experience with some Finnish NO Masses I've attended.
How does a Finnish NO Mass differ from a Finnish Lutheran mass? I guess the Lutherans have better music?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2017, 03:31:00 AM »
Modernism, liberalism and freemasonry infiltrating the heirachy of the Church. It indeed makes us weep.
What do people think of the claim that there was a Masonic influence in creating the New Order mass?

Quote
The following is a collage of fourteen pitiful table-like constructs that are used in Novus Ordo churches as “altars”


By comparison, this is what a real Catholic altar looks like:

St. Joseph’s Catholic Church in Wayne, Michigan

...in true Catholicism, the altar is rather important. It is the place of Sacrifice, on which the Immaculate Victim of Calvary, Christ Jesus the Lord, is mystically offered to the Most Holy Trinity... But the Modernists disagree. For them, Holy Mass is not about God but about them, first and foremost; it is to be a celebration of the community and of religious experience

The Novus Ordo “Mass” of the False “Pope” Paul VI, introduced in 1969, was essentially designed by Fr. Annibale Bugnini... It was later found out that Bugnini was in fact a member of the Freemasons, the archenemies of the Catholic Church. It is therefore not surprising that the sanctuaries of modern “Catholic” churches look an awful lot like the inside of Masonic lodges

Inside of a Masonic Lodge
http://novusordowatch.org/2013/11/novus-ordo-monster-altars/

This video seems to be making generalizations contrasting the New Order mass with the traditional one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69YEE7Zx58g

Quote
Traditional Latin Mass (Council of Trent) The Mass is the true and special sacrifice of the New Law. In it Jesus Christ, by the ministry of the Priest offers His Body and Blood to God the Father under the appearances of bread and wine...

Novus Ordo Missae (Pope Paul VI) The Lord’s supper, or Mass, is the assembly, or gathering together, of the people of God with the priest presiding to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.

To tell the truth, it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists. It has been destroyed.” – Joseph Gelineau, SJ, one of the experts involved in its formulation (The Tridentine Mass, p. 39) According to Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci, in their study and letter to the Pope, the New Mass “teems with insinuations or manifest errors against the integrity of the Catholic Faith.”
http://churcheclipse.com/home/catholic-takeover/novus-ordo-mass/

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Benedict XVI... came up with the “Motu” Hoax, by which “conservative” Novus Ordo parishioners would be drawn back into Church by a relaxed “indult” Mass , a bastardized form of the Traditional Latin Mass mixed with the Protestant-Masonic-Pagan Novus Ordo “Mass”.

http://shrineofourladyoflasalette.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-novus-ordo-mass.html
So now RC churches are using "indult" masses instead of the New Order ones?

« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 03:31:26 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2017, 08:35:37 AM »
What do people think of the claim that there was a Masonic influence in creating the New Order mass?

You shouldn't bother with wacky conspiracy theories about masons.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #138 on: July 29, 2017, 08:45:29 AM »
I heard that some novus ordo masses feature tantric goat sacrifices where they smoke cannabis and cast aspersions on the Tome of Leo. Not sure how widespread this is, though.
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Offline Luke

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2017, 10:24:08 AM »
I heard that some novus ordo masses feature tantric goat sacrifices where they smoke cannabis and cast aspersions on the Tome of Leo. Not sure how widespread this is, though.
:o

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #140 on: July 29, 2017, 11:58:05 AM »
I heard that some novus ordo masses feature tantric goat sacrifices where they smoke cannabis and cast aspersions on the Tome of Leo. Not sure how widespread this is, though.

Dcn Kuraev would know. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #141 on: July 29, 2017, 12:47:54 PM »
I heard that some novus ordo masses feature tantric goat sacrifices where they smoke cannabis and cast aspersions on the Tome of Leo. Not sure how widespread this is, though.
So they are back in communion with the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church?
God bless!

Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #142 on: July 29, 2017, 02:37:32 PM »
Couldn't they just celebrate the 1962 mass in the local languages?
AFAIK, Brazil was the only country where, three years before imposing the Novus Ordo liturgy, the Vetus Ordo liturgy was temporarily celebrated in the vernacular.  I wonder if this was the case among other Portuguese speaking countries or Latin American countries.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #143 on: July 29, 2017, 02:44:06 PM »
In Novus Ordo much more depends on the priest, so sometimes the new Mass is a disaster and sometimes there are used some elements of other rites e.g. byzantine.
I think that you nailed it on the head.  Unfortunately, the Roman liturgy does allow some latitude in its celebration, but it's badly abused almost to the point of making one unrecognizable. For instance, ad hoc songs are allowed only as the fourth choice from the standard liturgical antiphons, yet their use is de facto standard.


Before VII, if a priest deviated an iota from the norms he'd fallen in mortal sin.  After VII, it seems that a priest who sticks to the norms sins mortally against the spirit of the age.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #144 on: July 29, 2017, 02:53:47 PM »
Also, I think it is abhorrent that communion is handed out by laymen and -women in the NOM.
Also, a great source of abuses and sacrileges.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #145 on: July 29, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
There is nothing wrong with the rite itself IMO, the fault lies in how its practiced.
I once attended a Novus Ordo liturgy celebrated strictly according to the norms, including the priest facing East, responses in Latin and exclusive use of Gregorian Chant.  Yes, it was a much more reverent liturgy than at a typical Roman parish.  However, it also taught me how bad a shape the Roman Church is in that its most important prayer is so watered down virtually to be unrecognizable from how the Novus Ordo was intended.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #146 on: July 29, 2017, 02:57:06 PM »
Then there's the very idea behind the NOM that Eucharistic prayers should be written by a committee rather than received from the saints of old.
It's the spirit of the age.  Positivism may not have physically survived as a church, as Comte desired, but the whole West is now Positivist.  After all, we have not only a managerial state, but also a managerial church, the Roman Church.
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Offline WPM

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #147 on: July 29, 2017, 03:00:59 PM »
If people pray for you to be truly converted to the Orthodox/Catholic way of doing things.
Learn meditation.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #148 on: July 29, 2017, 03:04:30 PM »
I didn't understand who thought they had the right to change all these things.
Rome has always acted imperially, as if the Church belonged to the clergy and the faithful were merely tolerated in liturgy, as long as they tithed.  Beginning with Charlemagne and culminating with the Council of Trent, the Roman liturgy was imposed all over Western Europe without consideration of local liturgies, which there were more than a few.  The brutal imposition of the shocking Novus Ordo liturgy was just par for the Roman course.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #149 on: July 29, 2017, 03:08:30 PM »
If you can find a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal, please do so. The only copy I found and studied back in 1995 was tossed into the fireplace by my then Catholic priest-confessor who also stated that he would never celebrate the Novus Ordo again. 
Wow!  >:(  I had heard that Lutherans had been consultants to the Vatican on concocting the Novus Ordo, but thought that it was just an urban legend.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2017, 03:10:52 PM »
It is sad that Catholics have been brainwashed into accepting this Protestantized liturgy. Well do I remember attending parish education courses which painted anyone who refused to accept this novel liturgy as a "reactionary" who was "holier than the Pope."
I do know a couple of families who left the Roman Church after the liturgical reforms of VII.  One family eventually found its way back to it, but the other became Orthodox.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
You're wasting time replying to 5 year old posts.
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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2017, 03:17:25 PM »
During my catechumenate I wept when I encountered the truth about the Holy Orthodox Church.
As I find the truths obscured or forgotten by the Catholic Churches in the Orthodox Church, I smile in joy at the healing and peace that they bring me.  Not that it's less heavy a decision to make about my converting to Orthodoxy, but it does give me a light to follow.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2017, 03:20:06 PM »
You're wasting time replying to 5 year old posts.
Note to self: before jumping into a conversation, check the date of the posts.  ::)
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2017, 06:11:01 PM »
In my opinion, even the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) Liturgy is so much beautiful than Novus Ordo Mass.

Novus Ordo Mass for me just like an activity in the summer camp...
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #155 on: July 30, 2017, 02:16:53 AM »
As I have mentioned in other threads....

Done properly, with proper reverence and music, give me the Novus Ordo any day of the week over the Tridentine.  Any day of the week.

There are problems with both masses.  The Tridentine mass is clerical beyond belief, with very little lay interaction, and the movements of the clergy performing it often so stiff and unnatural, although I suspect this could be remedied somewhat.

I don't wish to cast aspersions on the Western Orthodox who use a version of the Tridentine mass.  I have never seen a WR Orthodox mass, and I would like to.  I hope that they have managed to address some problems.  I don't know if they might be better served by adopting a different western liturgy or not.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2017, 02:43:25 AM »
The Novus Ordo was a significant factor in why I didn't become Roman Catholic. I wouldn't say decisive reason, but it had a great impact.
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Offline Faithseeker

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2017, 02:57:26 AM »
The NO varies from parish to parish/priest to priest. Introducing folk music or even a rock style music to me are blasphemous and do not belong in a religious atmosphere that is supposed to be celebrating the Eucharist.

My experience is stand, sit, kneel. No variation from week to week. If the mass is served facing the congregation,  the respectful thing at least would be to have the priest say the Eucharistic prayers facing the tabernacle. I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!

The "devout" spend the mass reciting the rosary. Kids have their crayons and toys to keep them busy.

"Eucharistic Ministers" shocked me. The Eucharist should be received from the priest alone but if there is only one priest,  people belly-ache about the length of the Mass because it takes so much longer for individuals to receive the Eucharist. The "Lay Readers" do all the Scriptural readings except for the Gospel reading by the priest.

I've seen the traditional (read: pre-VCII) congregants in line for the Eucharist who will only go into the line where the priest is, not the "Eucharistic Ministers."

It feels like a fellowship service one would find in various Protestant churches rather than the Liturgy.

Prayers are communal. The Apostles' Creed is recited except during Easter when depending on the parish,  the Nicene Creed is recited and the entire congregation fumbles their way through it - including sometimes the priest himself.

The only place I experienced any "spiritual" connection has been in semi-contemplative convents that accept women on personal retreats.

I've never been to a Western Rite Orthodox Liturgy so I can't compare the two.

I've been in both Russian Orthodox Churches who pray the Liturgy in English and Antiochian Orthodox also in English. In the English speaking Russian Orthodox,  I could feel the Holy Spirit within but not completely until I went to the Antiochian Church. I can understand the prayers,  I'm actively praying in the presence of God with the feeling of being embraced by the Holy Spirit.

All of this was lacking in every RC parish I attended.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2017, 04:39:31 AM »
As I have mentioned in other threads....

Done properly, with proper reverence and music, give me the Novus Ordo any day of the week over the Tridentine.  Any day of the week.

There are problems with both masses.  The Tridentine mass is clerical beyond belief, with very little lay interaction, and the movements of the clergy performing it often so stiff and unnatural, although I suspect this could be remedied somewhat.

I don't wish to cast aspersions on the Western Orthodox who use a version of the Tridentine mass.  I have never seen a WR Orthodox mass, and I would like to.  I hope that they have managed to address some problems.  I don't know if they might be better served by adopting a different western liturgy or not.

I don't see whats wrong with the clericalism of the Tridentine mass from an Orthodox perspective.   The elaborate ceremonies of the traditional Latin masses (Tridentine, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carthusian) mirror the elaborate ceremonies of the Orthodox Church.

If anything, the Tridentine Mass is less clerical than a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom where there is a choir and no congregational singing; within the Tridentine mass, you have the laity kneeling at prescribed times.

I suspect you would enjoy Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: the Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy, which is very pro-novus ordo and pro-liturgical reform in the EO church, particularly critical of the liturgical maximalism of ROCOR (which I personally favor).  The work is, on the whole, anti-clerical to a degree I find unacceptable, stressing the priesthood of all believers over the high priesthood of the bishop and the sacerdotal, hieratic priests who are his assistance.   We are all priests in that we can pray directly to God for ourselves and other people without intermediation, but we are not all priests in the sense of being able to offer the holy and rational sacrifice of the Eucharist in the altar; the sacerdotal priesthood of the Church serves in this capacity and then delivers the body and blood of our Lord to the faithful.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #159 on: July 30, 2017, 04:40:47 AM »
I heard that some novus ordo masses feature tantric goat sacrifices where they smoke cannabis and cast aspersions on the Tome of Leo. Not sure how widespread this is, though.

Oh that is brilliant!
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #160 on: July 30, 2017, 04:45:33 AM »
What do people think of the claim that there was a Masonic influence in creating the New Order mass?

You shouldn't bother with wacky conspiracy theories about masons.

+1

The RCC is anti-Masonic, and there is no evidence of Vatican II or the Novus Ordo being a Masonic conspiracy theory.   There was some screwing around with the Vatican's finances linked to a controversial lodge which had been expelled from Italian Freemasonry, Propaganda 2, but this occurred closer to 1980 and appears to have been driven by pecuniary interests.

Freemasonry is a religion, a sort of mystical adjunct to Protestantism and any other monotheistic faith willing to tolerate it; it is incompatible with Eastern Orthodoxy, but we have to remember, at several points in history Freemasons were severely persecuted, for example, in Fascist Spain and Nazi Germany.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #161 on: July 30, 2017, 04:48:01 AM »
Freemasonry is a religion, a sort of mystical adjunct to Protestantism and any other monotheistic faith willing to tolerate it

"You shouldn't bother with wacky conspiracy theories about masons."

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2017, 04:58:53 AM »
My own view of the Novus Ordo is that it is fundamentally defective and an impediment to reunion with the Orthodox Church.

I specifically object to the following:

- Celebration of the mass versus populum
- The disappearance of Gregorian chant from the life of many Catholic parishes where the mass has been introduced
- The use of Lay Eucharistic Ministers
- The Three Year Lectionary, which is unprecedented in the history of Christendom
- The removal of the Last Gospel at the end of a Sung Mass
- Changes to the Paschal Triduum which began in 1955
- The excessive simplification of vestments to a degree which is minimalist and ugly
- The lack of the prepratory ritual which accompanies the Tridentine Mass
- The general lack of reverence, piety and dignity which characterize the Tridentine Mass and the Orthodox liturgies.

My preference would be for the RCC to revert to the Tridentine Mass rubrics as they existed following the reforms of Pope Pius X, albeit with the option of the mass being said wholly or partially in the vernacular.  A more explicit epiclesis, like the one the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate inserted into their Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory, would be of great benefit.

The only change, aside from the use of the vernacular, which I can support, is the 1962 modification of the Good Friday litany to delete the phrase "perfidis iudeam."   Perfidy means faithless, but by extension, it has shifted in context to refer to treacherous acts, such as war crimes (it is a war crime, perfidy, for example, to surrender, and then attack the enemy, or to infilitrate the enemy by wearing their uniforms, or to kill an officer who is negotiating under a flag of truce).  In light of the change of context surrounding the word "perfidy," it creates a reading of the mass which looks anti-Semitic, even though the intent was actually pro-Semitic, for the conversion of the Jews, and because of that, I think Pope John XXIII was correct in deleting it.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #163 on: July 30, 2017, 05:06:00 AM »
Freemasonry is a religion, a sort of mystical adjunct to Protestantism and any other monotheistic faith willing to tolerate it

"You shouldn't bother with wacky conspiracy theories about masons."

I was a member of the Order of Jacques DeMolay, basically, the Freemasonry boys club in the US, and we had a distinctive liturgy, several specific rites served on different occasions, and a distinctive manner of praying (specifically, we prayed using a unique posture derived from that used by George Washington).  We also wore distinctive robes and other vestments during our meetings, and our leaders were the Junior, Senior and Master Deacon.

I have no ill will towards Freemasonry; I think it emerged due to the lack of mysticism within Protestantism, which created a vacuum which needed to be filled; I think on the whole Freemasons are good and ethical people; I personally received enormous assistance concerning some aspects surrounding the death of my father from a Freemason, and have been very good friends with several others.   Had I not joined the Orthodox Church I might well have sought out membership in Freemasonry proper.

I am opposed to the persecution of Freemasons, and towards the tendency of some people to blame all of the world's ills on some dark alliance between Freemasons and Jews.   Such a delusion is the seed from which fascism springs.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #164 on: July 30, 2017, 06:12:58 PM »
As I have mentioned in other threads....

Done properly, with proper reverence and music, give me the Novus Ordo any day of the week over the Tridentine.  Any day of the week.

There are problems with both masses.  The Tridentine mass is clerical beyond belief, with very little lay interaction, and the movements of the clergy performing it often so stiff and unnatural, although I suspect this could be remedied somewhat.

I don't wish to cast aspersions on the Western Orthodox who use a version of the Tridentine mass.  I have never seen a WR Orthodox mass, and I would like to.  I hope that they have managed to address some problems.  I don't know if they might be better served by adopting a different western liturgy or not.

I think the Tridentine is far preferable in terms of the text of the service itself and its musical tradition. But you are absolutely correct that the spirituality with which it has been celebrated for a very long time virtually ignores the laity. There was a push in some quarters in the 1950s to celebrate the "Dialogue Mass" wherein the responses were made by the laity rather than the servers. That would have been the best option, in my opinion — no need to throw out an ancient liturgy, just improve the way it was celebrated, beginning with using languages "understood of the people."
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #165 on: July 30, 2017, 06:58:19 PM »
I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #166 on: July 30, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »
I don't see whats wrong with the clericalism of the Tridentine mass from an Orthodox perspective.   The elaborate ceremonies of the traditional Latin masses (Tridentine, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carthusian) mirror the elaborate ceremonies of the Orthodox Church.

If anything, the Tridentine Mass is less clerical than a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom where there is a choir and no congregational singing; within the Tridentine mass, you have the laity kneeling at prescribed times.

I really don't think this is the case.  The entire canon of the mass is mumbled by the priest under his breath in the Tridentine rite.  There are no responses to what he is saying either from the choir or lay singers.  The laity in the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom/Basil can at least hear some if not all of the priest's parts and can at least hear the choir respond if they do not sing quietly themselves.  There is simply no comparison at all.

Quote
I suspect you would enjoy Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: the Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy, which is very pro-novus ordo and pro-liturgical reform in the EO church, particularly critical of the liturgical maximalism of ROCOR (which I personally favor).

?  I am certainly not a crypto- Roman Catholic or Protestant as you seem to be implying.  I think there are admirable and not-so-admirable things to be found in the ROCOR approach, even though I don't think that doing everything the way it was done in late 19th century Russia is the same thing as "liturgical maximalism".   If you wish to adopt what I would call a pre-critical view of all things liturgical and dismiss all others who don't share your views as "modernists" (as it appears to me that you might be doing here), that is your choice. Am I right, is this your approach?   If so, I'm really not interested in a discussion.  I am starting to find polemics tiring and besides, they can provide me with just too much of a vehicle for sin, a vehicle for my passions.  Forgive me if I am judging you or the situation incorrectly. 

Quote
  The work is, on the whole, anti-clerical to a degree I find unacceptable, stressing the priesthood of all believers over the high priesthood of the bishop and the sacerdotal, hieratic priests who are his assistance.   We are all priests in that we can pray directly to God for ourselves and other people without intermediation, but we are not all priests in the sense of being able to offer the holy and rational sacrifice of the Eucharist in the altar; the sacerdotal priesthood of the Church serves in this capacity and then delivers the body and blood of our Lord to the faithful.

?  Who said anything about having laypeople serve at the altar instead of ordained clergy?  Clericalism, in which the clergy are somehow stlyed as a separate caste who are above everyone in the Church is not Orthodox.  Yes, the Church is a hierarchy, but it is a hierarchy of love in which all have different roles.  The clergy serve the Church in the Church, not above it.  A priest cannot serve Divine Liturgy by himself: at least one other Orthodox Christian, be they lay or clergy, must be present.  The liturgy is the work of all the people of God.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:17:33 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2017, 08:32:57 PM »
I don't see whats wrong with the clericalism of the Tridentine mass from an Orthodox perspective.   The elaborate ceremonies of the traditional Latin masses (Tridentine, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carthusian) mirror the elaborate ceremonies of the Orthodox Church.
I think that clericalism is not appropriate here.  Clericalism is actually more evident in the NO liturgy, since the clergy has the sole power to pick and choose among the choices given to him in the Roman Missal.  The fact that the NO liturgy can vary dramatically between parishes in the same diocese is the fruit of clericalism, or the power reserved to the clergy.

Now, of course the clergy is granted liturgical prerogatives, since ascending to the altar is reserved only to the clergy.  However, the liturgy, as etymologically the work of the people, also belongs to the faithful.  In the Roman liturgy, due to the latitude given to the clergy, the people is deprived of a consistent and coherent liturgy.  In this sense, this is the dark side of clerical prerogatives, or abusive clericalism.

I really don't think this is the case.  The entire canon of the mass is mumbled by the priest under his breath in the Tridentine rite.  There are no responses to what he is saying either from the choir or lay singers.  The laity in the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom/Basil can at least hear some of the priest's parts and can at least hear the choir respond if they do not sing quietly themselves.  There is simply no comparison at all.
According to Fr. Aidan Nichols, OP, the reasons for this are sadly less than liturgical:

Quote from: Rome And The Eastern Churches
The language of the Latin liturgy with its fine rhetorical cadences represents a unique point in the history of Christian Latinity: that moment when a large portion of the senatorial aristocracy of Rome sought baptism, in the course of the fourth and fifth centuries, bringing with them into the Roman Christian community their own high standards of purity of diction. One reason why the responses of the people in the Roman rite are so brief is that it was hard to find an ordinary congregation able to make longer responses in correct Latin. The gap between the classical Christian Latin of the liturgy and the vulgarised Latin of the common man grew wider in the succeeding centuries. The new Romance languages—Italian, French, Spanish, and so forth—did not grant an immediate understanding of their own original Latin base, and so the worshipping assemblies of the Western church withdrew into a degree of outward passivity, and silence."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:33:26 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2017, 06:59:14 AM »
If anything, the Tridentine Mass is less clerical than a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom where there is a choir and no congregational singing;

There can be congragational singing at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and it happens sometimes, somewhere.

within the Tridentine mass, you have the laity kneeling at prescribed times.
I wouldn't call it a big interaction/engagmenet of the laity into Liturgy.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2017, 07:46:26 AM »
Here in Brazil, most RC parishes are influenced by the charismatic movement, so there is a lot of happy clappy kind of thing, worship bands, ''say to your brother that Jesus finds him precious and beautiful''....

There is also a lot of clergy influenced by liberation theology, so you'll find eventually a homily that is a socialist propaganda, those priests usually like to make ethnic version of the NO, like african mass or people's mass, indigenous mass....

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2017, 09:17:57 AM »
If anything, the Tridentine Mass is less clerical than a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom where there is a choir and no congregational singing;

There can be congragational singing at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and it happens sometimes, somewhere.

within the Tridentine mass, you have the laity kneeling at prescribed times.
I wouldn't call it a big interaction/engagmenet of the laity into Liturgy.

Indeed so, but I was comparing the Tridentine Mass to those examples where we don't have congregational singing (for example, a Byzantine Chant oriented parish vs. a congregational singing Ruthenian parish oriented around prostopinije).
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2017, 02:43:37 PM »
I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!



St. John the Beloved, Mclean, VA

Notice that the altar is in the middle of the congregation room.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 02:43:51 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2017, 04:46:36 PM »
Freemasonry is a religion, a sort of mystical adjunct to Protestantism and any other monotheistic faith willing to tolerate it

"You shouldn't bother with wacky conspiracy theories about masons."
you shouldn't comment on issues you know little about, leave it to people who actually researched the infiltration of masonry

Offline Alpha60

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2017, 05:51:55 PM »
I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!



St. John the Beloved, Mclean, VA

Notice that the altar is in the middle of the congregation room.

That looks nothing like a Masonic lodge. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #174 on: July 31, 2017, 08:00:05 PM »
leave it to people who actually researched the infiltration of masonry
Can you please write about this a bit?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 08:00:21 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2017, 08:02:48 PM »
It's a gigantic joke.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #176 on: July 31, 2017, 08:17:18 PM »
I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!



St. John the Beloved, Mclean, VA

Notice that the altar is in the middle of the congregation room.

That looks nothing like a Masonic lodge.
Ironically the tabernacle is pretty easy to find there, but there was some instruction about it being preferred to have it in a side Eucharistic Chapel that's always open for prayer. So...some parishes put the reserved Eucharist in what amounts to a  broom closet.  ::)
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Offline LBK

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #177 on: July 31, 2017, 08:17:44 PM »
leave it to people who actually researched the infiltration of masonry
Can you please write about this a bit?

No. Just no.   :P ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #178 on: July 31, 2017, 08:53:21 PM »
I've been to RC churches and the tabernacle is not even behind the altar,  I actually had to look for it and in one church,  it was in a side corner!



St. John the Beloved, Mclean, VA

Notice that the altar is in the middle of the congregation room.

That looks nothing like a Masonic lodge.
Ironically the tabernacle is pretty easy to find there, but there was some instruction about it being preferred to have it in a side Eucharistic Chapel that's always open for prayer. So...some parishes put the reserved Eucharist in what amounts to a  broom closet.  ::)
Does it mean that the priest turns his back on half of the congregation when celebrating the mass?  ::)
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #179 on: July 31, 2017, 09:22:33 PM »
He's got it down. He can go Ad Populum for the young whippersnappers and Ad Orientem for the old timers.
God bless!