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Author Topic: Salvation of Christians outside the Church  (Read 1684 times) Average Rating: 0
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jmbejdl
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2012, 07:19:44 AM »

One can be saved even if he's not a christian, but after death. A lot of the world population is not Christian, obviously, they won't all perish.
However, God's intention is to make all orthodox (true humans), even if He accomplishes that after death. So, if we become orthodox sooner, the better off we are. The more people do, the better off they are.

...

Is this popularly taught among the Romanian Orthodox?

I've never heard it so whilst I don't doubt that Ioan might have, I wouldn't say it was popularly taught.

James

Well, it's not Church teaching or dogma, but it is Church understanding. Any other understanding would be sort of Protestant -- "only those who have Faith can be saved". Let me make it clear -- you cannot be saved outside The Church. However, if in this life you have not been brought to Orthodoxy, doesn't necessarily mean that you perish, but that God will get to you only after you die and will judge you according to what you have been given in the earthly life. For example, if God sent to you someone who was hungry, or needed clothing,...,you know how it goes; if God didn't offer you the chance to become Orthodox, He will not judge you for it, of course. However, those who become Orthodox in this life, receive or begin to receive their Salvation from this life; that's what it means that there is no Salvation outside the Church, that you cannot be transformed and come into direct communion with God except through Orthodoxy (which is really the normal state of things, of who we are). Never does it mean that one cannot be saved unless he becomes Christian in this earthly life.

That sounds quite different from what you wrote above, but it may well be that I just misunderstood you. I've always been taught that the only sure way to salvation is within the Orthodox Church but that we don't know what happens outside (we know where the Church is but not where it isn't) so I don't disagree with what you wrote above, I just had never heard it phrased as in your previous post.

James
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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2012, 08:08:15 AM »

One can be saved even if he's not a christian, but after death. A lot of the world population is not Christian, obviously, they won't all perish.
However, God's intention is to make all orthodox (true humans), even if He accomplishes that after death. So, if we become orthodox sooner, the better off we are. The more people do, the better off they are.

...

Is this popularly taught among the Romanian Orthodox?

I've never heard it so whilst I don't doubt that Ioan might have, I wouldn't say it was popularly taught.

James

Well, it's not Church teaching or dogma, but it is Church understanding. Any other understanding would be sort of Protestant -- "only those who have Faith can be saved". Let me make it clear -- you cannot be saved outside The Church. However, if in this life you have not been brought to Orthodoxy, doesn't necessarily mean that you perish, but that God will get to you only after you die and will judge you according to what you have been given in the earthly life. For example, if God sent to you someone who was hungry, or needed clothing,...,you know how it goes; if God didn't offer you the chance to become Orthodox, He will not judge you for it, of course. However, those who become Orthodox in this life, receive or begin to receive their Salvation from this life; that's what it means that there is no Salvation outside the Church, that you cannot be transformed and come into direct communion with God except through Orthodoxy (which is really the normal state of things, of who we are). Never does it mean that one cannot be saved unless he becomes Christian in this earthly life.

That sounds quite different from what you wrote above, but it may well be that I just misunderstood you. I've always been taught that the only sure way to salvation is within the Orthodox Church but that we don't know what happens outside (we know where the Church is but not where it isn't) so I don't disagree with what you wrote above, I just had never heard it phrased as in your previous post.

James

Yes, the way it's phrased is different, and I am certainly not disagreeing with the fact that there is no salvation outside The Church, and that we are to try to become more Orthodox and help others become Orthodox, as well. However, this is not always possible, as we see, and for us to judge or force those who have not had a chance to become orthodox yet, is definitely a sin.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 08:09:02 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 10:17:21 AM »

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 02:59:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Very good post, not sure about conduct of the person you speak of, but I have noticed this place can be hostile.
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 04:15:56 PM »

There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. Period. However, as Timothy Ware once stated, it is easy to identify where the Church is, but hard to identify where it is not. In other words, for all we know, there may be 'Protestants' who, spiritually, are actually Orthodox deep down and a part of the Orthodox Church in some mystical way. So, to answer your question, there is absolutely no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. But more people may be a part of the Orthodox Church than you would think.
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 05:24:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Then you have not read his posts where he has denounced Christianity and even mocked it, and even had avatars that mocked Christianity in the name of Hinduism.  Shame on you for reprimanding me for doing the right thing. 
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 05:37:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Very good post, not sure about conduct of the person you speak of, but I have noticed this place can be hostile.

If by "this place" you mean you, then I agree. 
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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 06:34:32 PM »

I'm posting this here because I want the opinions of Eastern Orthodox, as well as the Oriental Orthodox Christian.

The question is can a Catholic or Protestant be saved without converting to the Orthodox Church?

Of course.

I can't believe this thread has any answer besides the above, unless there are sophisticated arguments about what "converting to the Church" means.

I will now read this obvious exercise in superfluity.

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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 06:36:49 PM »

Right out the gate, witega succinctly answered it. That was going to be my response.

I believe only RC's believe that there is no salvation outside the Church IIRC. In Latin that's "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

witega is arguing sola gratia. Which is fully Orthodox.

How awesome is that?
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 06:40:12 PM »

There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. Period. However, as Timothy Ware once stated, it is easy to identify where the Church is, but hard to identify where it is not. In other words, for all we know, there may be 'Protestants' who, spiritually, are actually Orthodox deep down and a part of the Orthodox Church in some mystical way. So, to answer your question, there is absolutely no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. But more people may be a part of the Orthodox Church than you would think.

Here is the sophistic argument.

See, I don't have to read these threads.

People just PM me your questions and I will answer them. Skip all this public stuff.

On second thought, I can't even return emails on time. Keep posting the obviouslies here.
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 07:03:54 PM »

Why don't you post in my mental illnesses thread, orthonorm?
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 07:40:29 PM »

Why don't you post in my mental illnesses thread, orthonorm?

Flattery will get you . . .

Wait a minute, I think I know what you are saying here . . .

Klever kidz!
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 07:44:19 PM »

I bet orthonorm's most hated cliche is "We know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where it is not."
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 09:58:40 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us?  

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Very good post, not sure about conduct of the person you speak of, but I have noticed this place can be hostile.

If by "this place" you mean you, then I agree. 

shame on you priest troll Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 10:19:35 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If we have God in the form of the Church than we don`t need him in any other form.The institutional Church though has no intrinsical power in itself.. The institutional Church cannot do things for us we still need to do them.We cannot appeal directly and intrinsically to the institutional Church and the institutional Church has no power to make things happen to us.. The institutional Church stands at the mercy of God, thus it cannot be God..

The institutional Church can`t NEVER be equal to God, in the most blessed ocassions it can be in a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This gross idolatrization of the institutional denominational Church needs to end..



It is obvious that you are not Orthodox.  Why do you still list yourself as such?  It does not matter if you were Orthodox, since you are by definition apostate.  It seems as if your religion is Hindu.  Why not just list yourself as such and be honest with yourself and us? 

Instead of imparting why don`t you give us an answer Father?

Matthew 7:1

Who is "us," are you talking about when you say "give us,"--other Hindus?   Are you saying that those of Moses' seat have no right to judge?  Indeed, they do, but must not do so with partiality, but rather "judge with righteous judgment." 

But to answer your question, since you will not, I know why you still list yourself this way--namely so that you can get away with posting in the faith forum contrary to the rules without getting caught.   Nice way around moderation, but will not work forever, though.   

No disrespect father, but is that the most productive way to deal with somebody who is declining in Orthodox? Azul may come in and out of disillusionment with Orthodox, but we shouldn't suddenly excommunicate or cry conspiracy.  Perhaps our brother is going through it, but if we Orthodox are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, will that invite our brother back to the fold? Honestly, I think Azul is classy enough to speak his mind without having to hind behind pretexts, and I doubt he is overly considered with the opinions of the mods here.  That being said, I feel that Azul is having a spiritual battle with the Orthodox Church, but it is not that he is entirely opposed, so much as again, dealing with disillusionment.  And for what it is worth, if this forum was all I knew of Orthodox, I would walk away from it too.  Luckily, I attend my parish strongly, and don't worry to much about the nonsense I read and in the news sometimes, but this place is hardly Orthodox  itself sometimes  Undecided


as a note to Azul: remember, that the Church is a spiritual hospital, and so if you see people who appear sick in their hearts or minds, it is understandable, but know that they and us all are trying to get better, through the Grace of God, hence why we came to the hospital in the first place.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Very good post, not sure about conduct of the person you speak of, but I have noticed this place can be hostile.

If by "this place" you mean you, then I agree. 

shame on you priest troll Smiley

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« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 10:20:31 AM by вєликаго » Logged

St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What
dzheremi
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 10:25:14 AM »

Getting back to the OP, I think that Christians outside of the Church can be saved, yes. I think some inside of it may even be, too. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 10:30:07 AM »

I think in order to solve this equation right we need to ask ourselves what is the Church and what is the purpose of the Church.
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Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Tags: salvation 
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