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Author Topic: Ecumenical Councils  (Read 2420 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andrew Crook
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« on: June 17, 2012, 02:52:22 AM »

Hi everyone,

I have a question and I put it on this part of the forum, because I'd love to get the Catholic perspective as well.  Were the councils decided by majority vote, and if so why?  I know that voting had taken place, but if everyone decided for or against a theological issue -- is that how things were settled? 

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals?  The implications of that would be astounding.  But I have talked to others who didn't really understand how Councils went down, that thought it was determined by "majority vote" and had some of these issues with that idea.
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 02:56:32 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 05:12:01 AM »

I add another question to your question.And if the majority decides at Ecumenical Council, than why aren`t we in joined communion with the Roman Catholics according to the council of Florence.
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 07:51:29 AM »

"in joined"?


Upon return of the delegates from Florence, the clergy and the faithful rejected the agreements made at Florence.  That is part of the process of the work of Ecumenical Synods (Council's)---though Florence was attended by representatives, it was not "Ecumenical," anyway; the decisions of the Ecumenical Synods must be accepted by the greater church, and must be ratified by a subsequent synod.
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 08:03:05 AM »

Hi everyone,

I have a question and I put it on this part of the forum, because I'd love to get the Catholic perspective as well.  Were the councils decided by majority vote, and if so why?  I know that voting had taken place, but if everyone decided for or against a theological issue -- is that how things were settled? 

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals?  The implications of that would be astounding.  But I have talked to others who didn't really understand how Councils went down, that thought it was determined by "majority vote" and had some of these issues with that idea.

The vote at the council is the easy part. The hard part is the question of whether the council was an Ecumenical Council or not.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 11:05:32 AM »

Hi everyone,

I have a question and I put it on this part of the forum, because I'd love to get the Catholic perspective as well.  Were the councils decided by majority vote, and if so why?  I know that voting had taken place, but if everyone decided for or against a theological issue -- is that how things were settled? 

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals?  The implications of that would be astounding.  But I have talked to others who didn't really understand how Councils went down, that thought it was determined by "majority vote" and had some of these issues with that idea.
The Councils were not like a vote in Congress, but rather like a convention of physicians gathered on discussing the treatment of a disease,  so it they are more like a session of WHO (World Health Organization).
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 12:26:57 PM »

Read The Orthodox Church by Timothy (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia) Ware, if you have not already done so.  Part of the book explains the Ecumenical Councils and the process they took.
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 02:13:35 PM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 08:24:38 PM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 11:00:16 PM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

The terminology used by the Holy Fathers of the Ecumenical Synods for promulgating their decisions begins with the scriptural formula, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..."
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2012, 11:27:39 PM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 12:00:28 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 12:04:32 AM »

witega with an avatar. Might have to get used to this.
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 01:18:50 AM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 01:25:21 AM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 03:55:56 AM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

No, the church always knew the truth, "...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3: 15), the Ecumenical Synods enabled the church the opportunity to promulgate the truth, dogma, that is considered infallible upon acceptance by the greater church and ratified by subsequent Synods.
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 09:56:22 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 10:53:22 AM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

No, the church always knew the truth, "...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3: 15), the Ecumenical Synods enabled the church the opportunity to promulgate the truth, dogma, that is considered infallible upon acceptance by the greater church and ratified by subsequent Synods.

So why did they need to meet in order to promulgate the truth, if they already knew the truth? Either they already knew the truth or councils served the function of promulgating the truth (implying that the truth was unknown by all beforehand). For both to be true would be nonsensical. The latter is precisely what I mean by the divining rod mentality. Even though you admit that a council is not automatically infallible, you still fall until this mentality, because you have your own magic formula which guarantees in your mind that a council will be infallible, its acceptance by the 'greater church'. There simply is no magic formula, no string of words, no acceptance by the pentarchy, no  acceptance by any number or percentage of bishops, presbyters, deacons, monks or laymen which guarantees that a council will be infallible.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 10:54:08 AM »

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Perhaps he doesn't feel like he needs to say it.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 11:06:04 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Yes.
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 11:19:26 AM »

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Perhaps he doesn't feel like he needs to say it.

Maybe, maybe not.  But he did say it.  And I asked, not because I was trolling, but because I was interested if that was what he really meant.  Turns out it was.  Interesting.

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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 11:21:22 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals? 
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Yes.

Thanks.

Can you cite other examples where bishops, in "Ecumenical" Council, were not faithful to Apostolic Tradition?
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 11:31:41 AM »

So why did they need to meet in order to promulgate the truth, if they already knew the truth? Either they already knew the truth or councils served the function of promulgating the truth (implying that the truth was unknown by all beforehand).

While I'm pretty sure I understand (and agree) with what you are getting at here, there is actually a 3rd option in phrasing. It's possible 'they' (as in most of the bishops coming to the council) already knew the truth, but the truth was under attack by a significant enough (defined either in terms of numbers or political power) threat that they needed to meet in council to determine how to best phrase the Orthodox rejection of said attack (not to mention simply to make clear on which side of the contemporary debate the bishops of the Church as a body fell on--whatever this or that heresiarch might be declaring).
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 11:36:51 AM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals?  
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Yes.

Thanks.

Can you cite other examples where bishops, in "Ecumenical" Council, were not faithful to Apostolic Tradition?

(Let me clean this up a little)

From an OO perspective: Chalcedon, which why they reject it.

From an EO and RC perspective
Ephesus II (which is why Chalcedon was necessary to overturn it)
Hiera (the Iconoclast "Ecumenical Council")
Constantinople IV/the 8th Ecumenical Council (RC consider 869 a true council and 879 a false council, EO though opposite, but either way *one* of them is an example of a council that fit all the formal criteria of an Ecumenical Council that was not faithful).

From an EO perspective
Lyons II and, of course, Florence.
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 11:39:03 AM »

There were no "votes."  As we read through the Acts of the Council, they talked and talked until resolution was unanimously made.  On dogmatic matters, we read "All exclaimed, this is the Faith of the Apostles...etc."  It was simply a recognition of what was already the Faith and dogma of the Church.   It was not considered resolved until "all exclaimed."  Even in pragmatic matters, for example, in the 4th Ecumenical Council with regard to the deposition of a bishop, we have all sides making their cases.  They did not have unanimous resolution in the 11th session so they still needed to delve further into the canonical tradition and the facts of the case.  Finally, through extensive discussion, we read at the end of the 12th session:  "All exclaimed: 'This is a just judgment...the two were installed contrary to the canons.  Let the provision of the canon regarding them prevail.  The the archbishops' proposal prevail."  
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »

If they were settled that way, does this mean that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is subject to the votes of we mere mortals?  
The Holy Scriptures were written by mere mortals.

If one has a not-so-negative view of mortals and a positive view of the Holy Spirit, it isn't problematic.
Exactly. If you believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the voting of the Bishops of the Church is not a problem at all.

Then, if "the faithful" reject the council, e.g. the Council of Florence, was the Holy Spirit with them and not with the Bishops?  If He wasn't with the Bishops, then.....well, then what?  Possibly a naive question, but one I had to ask.
The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The answer to that question depends on who was being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition.

Which is also why the 'voting' at Ecumenical Councils is nothing like 'majority-rules democracy'. It was not a matter of at least 51% of the bishops voted for homoousious or the Theotokos and so those terms won the day. Rather the bishops discussed it in council until it was clear that a concensus had been reached and the 'vote' as such was a mere formality which allowed each bishop to publicly declare his support for the concensus.

We honor the 318 Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council or the 350 Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical not because 160 or 176 of them voted correctly but because all 318 or 350 affirmed the Orthodox teaching promulgated by that council.

Are you saying, then, that the bishops at, for example,  Florence were *not* "being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition"?

Yes.

Thanks.

Can you cite other examples where bishops, in "Ecumenical" Council, were not faithful to Apostolic Tradition?

(Let me clean this up a little)

From an OO perspective: Chalcedon, which why they reject it.

From an EO and RC perspective
Ephesus II (which is why Chalcedon was necessary to overturn it)
Hiera (the Iconoclast "Ecumenical Council")
Constantinople IV/the 8th Ecumenical Council (RC consider 869 a true council and 879 a false council, EO though opposite, but either way *one* of them is an example of a council that fit all the formal criteria of an Ecumenical Council that was not faithful).

From an EO perspective
Lyons II and, of course, Florence.

So, there seems to be some confusion about just who is and who isn't faithful to Apostolic Tradition and who the Holy Spirit is and isn't with.  All of which seems to put us back with Wyatt's answer above, "The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."  And round and round the merry-go-round goes..... Grin
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 12:39:51 PM »

So, there seems to be some confusion about just who is and who isn't faithful to Apostolic Tradition and who the Holy Spirit is and isn't with.  All of which seems to put us back with Wyatt's answer above, "The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."  And round and round the merry-go-round goes..... Grin

I think you and Wyatt are getting the arrow of causality wrong. It's not which Church you belong to that determines Apostolic Tradition, but which Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets (i.e., faithful to the Apostolic tradition) which is the Church you should belong to.
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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 01:22:30 PM »

So, there seems to be some confusion about just who is and who isn't faithful to Apostolic Tradition and who the Holy Spirit is and isn't with.  All of which seems to put us back with Wyatt's answer above, "The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."  And round and round the merry-go-round goes..... Grin

I think you and Wyatt are getting the arrow of causality wrong. It's not which Church you belong to that determines Apostolic Tradition, but which Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets (i.e., faithful to the Apostolic tradition) which is the Church you should belong to.
I'm well aware of that. I'm also aware that you and I and many others on this forum disagree on which Church is most fully built on the foundation of the Apostles...it's the nature of being in schism with one another.
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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 01:30:05 PM »

So, there seems to be some confusion about just who is and who isn't faithful to Apostolic Tradition and who the Holy Spirit is and isn't with.  All of which seems to put us back with Wyatt's answer above, "The answer to that question depends on which Church you believe is truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."  And round and round the merry-go-round goes..... Grin

I think you and Wyatt are getting the arrow of causality wrong. It's not which Church you belong to that determines Apostolic Tradition, but which Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets (i.e., faithful to the Apostolic tradition) which is the Church you should belong to.

According to your criteria then, the Church I "should" belong is the one Wyatt and I do belong to   Wink.  (Which is not to say that the Church you belong to.....well....dare we go down that well-worn rut again??)
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 02:22:08 PM »

There were no "votes."  As we read through the Acts of the Council, they talked and talked until resolution was unanimously made.  On dogmatic matters, we read "All exclaimed, this is the Faith of the Apostles...etc."  It was simply a recognition of what was already the Faith and dogma of the Church.   It was not considered resolved until "all exclaimed."  Even in pragmatic matters, for example, in the 4th Ecumenical Council with regard to the deposition of a bishop, we have all sides making their cases.  They did not have unanimous resolution in the 11th session so they still needed to delve further into the canonical tradition and the facts of the case.  Finally, through extensive discussion, we read at the end of the 12th session:  "All exclaimed: 'This is a just judgment...the two were installed contrary to the canons.  Let the provision of the canon regarding them prevail.  The the archbishops' proposal prevail."  

Who were the two mentioned there?
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2012, 12:30:29 PM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

No, the church always knew the truth, "...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3: 15), the Ecumenical Synods enabled the church the opportunity to promulgate the truth, dogma, that is considered infallible upon acceptance by the greater church and ratified by subsequent Synods.

And who is the "greater church" ?
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2012, 01:00:02 PM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

No, the church always knew the truth, "...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3: 15), the Ecumenical Synods enabled the church the opportunity to promulgate the truth, dogma, that is considered infallible upon acceptance by the greater church and ratified by subsequent Synods.

And who is the "greater church" ?
The believers everywhere. We dont really have one, or a few folks that state, "this is ecumenical".

PP
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2012, 01:38:55 PM »

Ah, the ecumenical councils. From the way people talk about them, you would think that they were divining rods straight out of the I Ching, used by the Church to discern the truth.

No, the church always knew the truth, "...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3: 15), the Ecumenical Synods enabled the church the opportunity to promulgate the truth, dogma, that is considered infallible upon acceptance by the greater church and ratified by subsequent Synods.

And who is the "greater church" ?
The believers everywhere. We dont really have one, or a few folks that state, "this is ecumenical".

PP

so how would the great church know when the great apostasy has come?
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 10:16:31 AM »

Quote
so how would the great church know when the great apostasy has come?
It very well could have, or is still to come. I dont try to think on those things. I just try to focus on obedience.

PP
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2012, 10:20:37 AM »

Quote
so how would the great church know when the great apostasy has come?
It very well could have, or is still to come. I dont try to think on those things. I just try to focus on obedience.

PP

Amen to that!  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2012, 11:38:54 AM »

you both suck Smiley .. blind obedience is not good.. obedience to a church who might have fallen in apostasy is not good either..
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2012, 12:14:16 PM »

you both suck Smiley .. blind obedience is not good.. obedience to a church who might have fallen in apostasy is not good either..

Hey...thanks!  You suck, too Smiley.  Who said anything about "blind obedience"?
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2012, 12:41:04 PM »

you both suck Smiley .. blind obedience is not good.. obedience to a church who might have fallen in apostasy is not good either..

Okay, take it outside, you.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2012, 12:58:15 PM »

you both suck Smiley .. blind obedience is not good.. obedience to a church who might have fallen in apostasy is not good either..

Okay, take it outside, you.  Wink

(Was that a "you", a "youse", a "y'all", a "yins", a "yuns", or a "yins all, y'all"?)

Ahh, c'mon biro--where's your sense of adventure  Wink Wink?

And he (she?) did use a smiley, as did I, so we're just havin' fun with each other.  Aren't we, Azul?
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2012, 01:16:33 PM »

Don't you kids make me come back there, or I'm stopping the car.
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2012, 01:30:48 PM »

Don't you kids make me come back there, or I'm stopping the car.

Are we there, yet, are we there yet, are we there yet???

c'mon ma, are we almost there............??


 laugh laugh
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM »

Mom! J Michael is touching me! he's touching me!

Ok, he stopped touching me but now he's looking at me! Make him stop looking at me!
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2012, 01:34:02 PM »

Mom! J Michael is touching me! he's touching me!

Ok, he stopped touching me but now he's looking at me! Make him stop looking at me!

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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2012, 01:34:44 PM »

Mom! J Michael is touching me! he's touching me!

Ok, he stopped touching me but now he's looking at me! Make him stop looking at me!



And then.........


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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2012, 01:45:57 PM »

Mom! J Michael is touching me! he's touching me!

Ok, he stopped touching me but now he's looking at me! Make him stop looking at me!

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:47 PM »

Mom! J Michael is touching me! he's touching me!

Ok, he stopped touching me but now he's looking at me! Make him stop looking at me!

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Hey....I'm *only* 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

(And that little twerp keeps shooting spitballs at me!)
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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2012, 02:55:00 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.
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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 03:11:00 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 03:18:28 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 03:37:12 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

That's a relief! 

Now, knock it off with the spit-balls, okay!?!?  Grin
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 05:35:14 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 05:44:32 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink

Well, I can google for the dates and details, but off the top of my head...

Nicea = 1
Constantinople = 1 (even though the actual council broke up, and was reconvened later, I'll still count this as one)
Ephesus = 1
Chalcedon = 1 (leaving aside that a large chunk of the Church rejected it, which I guess is true to a lesser extent for Ephesus)
Justinian's Thing = 1
That one in 680 = 1
Trullo = 1/2 (it met like 10 years after #6, so ain't no way I'm counting it as the same)
The 787 Icon council
Photian Council (the Orthodox one that sort of settled things down, not the Catholic one)
Palamite Councils (multiple councils, at least three, and maybe as high as six, but I'm fine with them be grouped together).

= 9 1/2

(yes, I'm only being 1/4 serious  Grin )
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink

Well, I can google for the dates and details, but off the top of my head...

Nicea = 1
Constantinople = 1 (even though the actual council broke up, and was reconvened later, I'll still count this as one)
Ephesus = 1
Chalcedon = 1 (leaving aside that a large chunk of the Church rejected it, which I guess is true to a lesser extent for Ephesus)
Justinian's Thing = 1
That one in 680 = 1
Trullo = 1/2 (it met like 10 years after #6, so ain't no way I'm counting it as the same)
The 787 Icon council
Photian Council (the Orthodox one that sort of settled things down, not the Catholic one)
Palamite Councils (multiple councils, at least three, and maybe as high as six, but I'm fine with them be grouped together).

= 9 1/2

(yes, I'm only being 1/4 serious  Grin )

Trullo being 1/2 is the archsemiheresy of Ambrosism.  The 6th is 680 (dogmas)+Trullo (canons)=1, despite what Fr. Ambrose says.  So says the 7th, so says the Rudder and Kormchaya Kniga.   
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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2012, 09:40:10 AM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink

Well, I can google for the dates and details, but off the top of my head...

Nicea = 1
Constantinople = 1 (even though the actual council broke up, and was reconvened later, I'll still count this as one)
Ephesus = 1
Chalcedon = 1 (leaving aside that a large chunk of the Church rejected it, which I guess is true to a lesser extent for Ephesus)
Justinian's Thing = 1
That one in 680 = 1
Trullo = 1/2 (it met like 10 years after #6, so ain't no way I'm counting it as the same)
The 787 Icon council
Photian Council (the Orthodox one that sort of settled things down, not the Catholic one)
Palamite Councils (multiple councils, at least three, and maybe as high as six, but I'm fine with them be grouped together).

= 9 1/2

(yes, I'm only being 1/4 serious  Grin )

Trullo being 1/2 is the archsemiheresy of Ambrosism.  The 6th is 680 (dogmas)+Trullo (canons)=1, despite what Fr. Ambrose says.  So says the 7th, so says the Rudder and Kormchaya Kniga.   

Pardon my ignorance, but how can you have 1/2 of an *Ecumenical* Council?  Does that mean that 1/2 of it was "Ecumenical" and 1/2 wasn't; or that 1/2 of the proclamations were official and 1/2 unoffical; or that the Holy Spirit was there providing guidance only 1/2 the time, or.........what??  And what is an "archsemiheresy"  Huh Huh



(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)
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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2012, 09:51:20 AM »

(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Nice to find a fellow grammar nazi. Wink  Does apostrophe abuse make you equally apoplectic or is that just my personal cross?

On the question of the Council in Trullo being half a council, I think the post was a humorous take on the fact that its canons are considered an adjunct to the fifth and sixth councils and so we consider it Ecumenical as part of those but not as an Ecumenical Council in its own right.

James
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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2012, 10:21:48 AM »

(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Nice to find a fellow grammar nazi. Wink  Does apostrophe abuse make you equally apoplectic or is that just my personal cross?

I can understand people mixing up its and it's, but some of the apostrophe mistakes I see are just unbelievable.
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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2012, 10:29:09 AM »

(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Nice to find a fellow grammar nazi. Wink  Does apostrophe abuse make you equally apoplectic or is that just my personal cross?

I can understand people mixing up its and it's, but some of the apostrophe mistakes I see are just unbelievable.

One of my personal peeves is seeing people (and in this instance I must, lamentably, include the BBC) abbreviating 1990s (for example) as 90's rather than '90s. After all, what can actually belong to a 90?

(Sorry everyone for the brief derailment - feel free to ignore my confessed affliction and return to the subject at hand)

James
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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2012, 10:36:16 AM »

(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Nice to find a fellow grammar nazi. Wink  Does apostrophe abuse make you equally apoplectic or is that just my personal cross?

On the question of the Council in Trullo being half a council, I think the post was a humorous take on the fact that its canons are considered an adjunct to the fifth and sixth councils and so we consider it Ecumenical as part of those but not as an Ecumenical Council in its own right.

James

And my confusion grows  Grin Grin Grin.  (Don't worry, I'll get over it Wink.)



Re: grammar--Apostrophe abuse doesn't bother me nearly as much as the "less/fewer" issue.  At least with apostrophes the issue only comes up in *written* language (you can't actually hear an apostrophe), whereas sooooooooo very many supposedly well-educated people and people who speak publicly (broadcasters, college profs., lawyers, priests, bishops, etc., etc.) grossly confuse "less" and "fewer".  Do they not teach this stuff in school anymore?  Or do people just not care?  I have to admit that every once in a while I get a little confused about apostrophes  Sad.  Please accept my apologies in advance  Wink.
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2012, 01:51:00 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink

Well, I can google for the dates and details, but off the top of my head...

Nicea = 1
Constantinople = 1 (even though the actual council broke up, and was reconvened later, I'll still count this as one)
Ephesus = 1
Chalcedon = 1 (leaving aside that a large chunk of the Church rejected it, which I guess is true to a lesser extent for Ephesus)
Justinian's Thing = 1
That one in 680 = 1
Trullo = 1/2 (it met like 10 years after #6, so ain't no way I'm counting it as the same)
The 787 Icon council
Photian Council (the Orthodox one that sort of settled things down, not the Catholic one)
Palamite Councils (multiple councils, at least three, and maybe as high as six, but I'm fine with them be grouped together).

= 9 1/2

(yes, I'm only being 1/4 serious  Grin )

Trullo being 1/2 is the archsemiheresy of Ambrosism.  The 6th is 680 (dogmas)+Trullo (canons)=1, despite what Fr. Ambrose says.  So says the 7th, so says the Rudder and Kormchaya Kniga.    

Pardon my ignorance, but how can you have 1/2 of an *Ecumenical* Council?  Does that mean that 1/2 of it was "Ecumenical" and 1/2 wasn't; or that 1/2 of the proclamations were official and 1/2 unoffical; or that the Holy Spirit was there providing guidance only 1/2 the time, or.........what??  And what is an "archsemiheresy"  Huh Huh



(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Yes, the entire thing was meant to be humerous to those who have been around a while.  Fr. Ambrose (Irish Hermit) held that Trullo was less than Ecumenical.  That is my point, that there is no such thing as a 1/2 Ecumenical Council, which I think I made clear.  The Vatican does claim that there are partial ecumenical councils (Basle, Constance, etc).

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.  

Since you have already taken the joy out of this litany of posts (one of my pet peeves), I refuse to explain the humor of a word such as "archsemiheresy" in this context  laugh  Wink
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 02:11:51 PM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.  

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 03:26:30 PM »

son didn't I tell you to stay away from those creepy old guys?? police

Okay, now it's getting a little creepy.

Creepiness knows no bounds.....



So.....howz about them Ecumenical Councils, anyway?

All 9 1/2 Ecumenical Councils are doing quite well Smiley

For the RC's or for the Orthodox?  1/3 of the council of Basle is ok with the RCC, and 1/4 of Constance, and then of course Florence trumps the others on papal supremacy.  Even Vatican I is in fractions as the official name of the RCC there is indeed "Roman" whereas this was nullified by Vatican II which reduced it to "Catholic."   We may have less whole numbers but also have less fractions.  Wink

Well, I can google for the dates and details, but off the top of my head...

Nicea = 1
Constantinople = 1 (even though the actual council broke up, and was reconvened later, I'll still count this as one)
Ephesus = 1
Chalcedon = 1 (leaving aside that a large chunk of the Church rejected it, which I guess is true to a lesser extent for Ephesus)
Justinian's Thing = 1
That one in 680 = 1
Trullo = 1/2 (it met like 10 years after #6, so ain't no way I'm counting it as the same)
The 787 Icon council
Photian Council (the Orthodox one that sort of settled things down, not the Catholic one)
Palamite Councils (multiple councils, at least three, and maybe as high as six, but I'm fine with them be grouped together).

= 9 1/2

(yes, I'm only being 1/4 serious  Grin )

Trullo being 1/2 is the archsemiheresy of Ambrosism.  The 6th is 680 (dogmas)+Trullo (canons)=1, despite what Fr. Ambrose says.  So says the 7th, so says the Rudder and Kormchaya Kniga.    

Pardon my ignorance, but how can you have 1/2 of an *Ecumenical* Council?  Does that mean that 1/2 of it was "Ecumenical" and 1/2 wasn't; or that 1/2 of the proclamations were official and 1/2 unoffical; or that the Holy Spirit was there providing guidance only 1/2 the time, or.........what??  And what is an "archsemiheresy"  Huh Huh



(Just to get it off my chest, because it's a pet peeve of mine with respect especially to "well-educated" people, we don't have "less" whole numbers or fractions or sheep or councils or cups of coffee, etc., etc., we have *fewer* of them  police  angel.  Okay, I feel better now  Grin Grin)

Yes, the entire thing was meant to be humerous to those who have been around a while.  Fr. Ambrose (Irish Hermit) held that Trullo was less than Ecumenical.  That is my point, that there is no such thing as a 1/2 Ecumenical Council, which I think I made clear.  The Vatican does claim that there are partial ecumenical councils (Basle, Constance, etc).

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.  

Since you have already taken the joy out of this litany of posts (one of my pet peeves), I refuse to explain the humor of a word such as "archsemiheresy" in this context  laugh  Wink


Sheesh....what a grouch   laugh Wink!

Awww....c'mon, Fahder.... laugh
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 03:27:23 PM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.  

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 04:05:14 PM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.  

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!

You would hate northern and western PA.  They use "wasn't" instead of "were not," and the town of Versailles is pronounced "Vuursayyuls."   Cry
And of course, in Pittsburgh, "where you are" is pronounced "up air."   laugh
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2012, 04:23:18 PM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.   

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!

You would hate northern and western PA.  They use "wasn't" instead of "were not," and the town of Versailles is pronounced "Vuursayyuls."   Cry
And of course, in Pittsburgh, "where you are" is pronounced "up air."   laugh

I *love* Pittsburgh and western PA!!  My wife and I are thinking of moving there when certain circumstances allow.  So...consider that fair warning  Grin!

As for the pronunciations, etc....I've learned Hebrew, Texan, British English, and am working on Russian, so I might just be able to squeak by up there  Grin.

Now...please, Fahder, I beg you.....what on earth is an ""archsemiheresy"?  (I promise never again to criticize your incorrect usage of "fewer" and "less".  I promise!!  Really!!!)   Grin
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2012, 09:55:04 PM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.   

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!

You would hate northern and western PA.  They use "wasn't" instead of "were not," and the town of Versailles is pronounced "Vuursayyuls."   Cry
And of course, in Pittsburgh, "where you are" is pronounced "up air."   laugh

I have lived in the 'Burgh for twenty years and this sort of thing drives me nuts. They can pronounce Duquesne properly but massacre Coraopolis and DuBois as badly as Versailles.
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« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2012, 09:37:42 AM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.   

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!

You would hate northern and western PA.  They use "wasn't" instead of "were not," and the town of Versailles is pronounced "Vuursayyuls."   Cry
And of course, in Pittsburgh, "where you are" is pronounced "up air."   laugh

I have lived in the 'Burgh for twenty years and this sort of thing drives me nuts. They can pronounce Duquesne properly but massacre Coraopolis and DuBois as badly as Versailles.

Ah, yes, I forgot about Dooboys.   Sad
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« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2012, 10:15:08 AM »

The simplicity of the statement "we have less whole numbers..." etc. implied that such an argument is childish, like one among 8 year olds:  "You have less marbles than me," response, "nu uh, I got more than you," hence the emoticon following.  If you think that such an argument is mature and wish to dignify the argument by making it grammatically correct, I suppose you can do so.   

Nuh-uh (or nuh'uh Grin).

Superb usage of The Apostrophe, Peter  Wink!

You would hate northern and western PA.  They use "wasn't" instead of "were not," and the town of Versailles is pronounced "Vuursayyuls."   Cry
And of course, in Pittsburgh, "where you are" is pronounced "up air."   laugh

I have lived in the 'Burgh for twenty years and this sort of thing drives me nuts. They can pronounce Duquesne properly but massacre Coraopolis and DuBois as badly as Versailles.

Folks is folks, ain't they?  I lived in Israel for 5 years and met numerous people there who had been there for as long as 20 or 30 years or longer and could barely put together a coherent sentence in Hebrew!
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