Author Topic: Ecumenical criticism?  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 06:02:07 PM »
Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  

Perhaps a kerfluffle ensues because the sort of thing you mention is not a grass-roots movement, nor normative nor tolerated and/or encouraged. At least not according to my experiences. On the contrary, as I said before, even at RC/Orthodox events which were conducted in a spirit of courtesy and friendship, great care was taken by the Orthodox to ensure that there was not even a suggestion of inter-communion.


Most Orthodox, at least according to my observation/experience, do not spend a lot of time and energy on intercommunion or reunification or whatever you want to call it. Or even thinking about the RCC. If asked, they might say that it would be nice if it occurred, but mostly it's not even on their radar.

You may, indeed be right about it not being "a grass-roots movement".  I don't know, to be honest. 

Those organizing and/or officiating at the RC/OC events you refer to I'm sure would go to great pains to ensure that all appropriate rules/canons/protocols were closely adhered to, as indeed they ought.  Those events are altogether different from the kind of inter-communion we've been kerfuffling ( ;)) about.

What you say about the radar of most Orthodox applies equally, if not to an even greater extent, to most Catholics.  Perhaps....just perhaps, if more Orthodox and more Catholics were well enough grounded in, and sure enough about their *faith* as Christians more of us would think about, given adequate catechesis, the ramifications of the schism between us and would feel compelled to pray more, do more, work harder at healing that schism.  Is *that* grasping at straws?

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Offline William

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 06:21:51 PM »
But...it exists, and you cannot deny it, try as you might.

Maybe I don't get it.  What is your point?

I've not denied that it exists. Why do you keep trying to "prove" that inter-communion occurs, other than to imply some sort of tacit approval within the Church? 

The point is, that it happens.  Pure and simple.  Maybe against the rules of both Churches.  Maybe illicitly.  Maybe "unto condemnation" (which is for God alone to determine).  Maybe this, and maybe that.  But....that's it. 

Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  Just like on this thread.  So, if it'll make y'all happy, I'll cease and desist in mentioning it (at least for a little while, anyway  ;D). 

You sure do like to flatter yourself.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2012, 07:39:05 PM »
But...it exists, and you cannot deny it, try as you might.

Maybe I don't get it.  What is your point?

I've not denied that it exists. Why do you keep trying to "prove" that inter-communion occurs, other than to imply some sort of tacit approval within the Church? 

The point is, that it happens.  Pure and simple.  Maybe against the rules of both Churches.  Maybe illicitly.  Maybe "unto condemnation" (which is for God alone to determine).  Maybe this, and maybe that.  But....that's it. 

Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  Just like on this thread.  So, if it'll make y'all happy, I'll cease and desist in mentioning it (at least for a little while, anyway  ;D). 

You sure do like to flatter yourself.

 :-*
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2012, 08:46:27 PM »
What is it, precisely, that (you think) I make of these instances?

"You" in this case is the general "you", not "You, J Michael". What you (anyone, someone) make of these instances says more about you (the particular person interpreting individual instances of communion) than about reality. 

Quote
Oh, I fully intend to "stay Catholic", and I've never really complained against you not joining us.


Once again, the general "you"...

Quote
In fact, the complaints that I have seen and heard come far more from the Orthodox against Catholics not joining them.  Your experience, however, may be different.

In the context of the Roman Catholic Church making overtures toward the not Rome-united East and Orient, I'm not entirely sure the Eastern response is unreasonable. Again, in keeping with the thread, you must be Orthodox if you want us to consider you the same church and hence be united with you, which does seem to be the goal of the RCC in all of these ecumenical dialogues it likes to have (of course, if in reality you don't actually care -- which I would completely understand -- then we don't really need to talk about anything). This whole "two lungs" business or having us join one of the Eastern Catholic churches isn't going to cut it for most Orthodox.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 09:14:55 AM »
What is it, precisely, that (you think) I make of these instances?

"You" in this case is the general "you", not "You, J Michael". What you (anyone, someone) make of these instances says more about you (the particular person interpreting individual instances of communion) than about reality. 

Quote
Oh, I fully intend to "stay Catholic", and I've never really complained against you not joining us.


Once again, the general "you"...

Quote
In fact, the complaints that I have seen and heard come far more from the Orthodox against Catholics not joining them.  Your experience, however, may be different.

In the context of the Roman Catholic Church making overtures toward the not Rome-united East and Orient, I'm not entirely sure the Eastern response is unreasonable. Again, in keeping with the thread, you must be Orthodox if you want us to consider you the same church and hence be united with you, which does seem to be the goal of the RCC in all of these ecumenical dialogues it likes to have (of course, if in reality you don't actually care -- which I would completely understand -- then we don't really need to talk about anything). This whole "two lungs" business or having us join one of the Eastern Catholic churches isn't going to cut it for most Orthodox.

Okay.  I understand where you're coming from.  I don't totally agree, but that's neither here nor there.  This has all been hashed and re-hashed over and over, both here and other places, so there's probably no point in continuing to beat it to death yet again.  I'm pretty sure I'm not going to change your mind and equally if not more sure that you're not going to change mine.

(What a shame that in English sometimes, as opposed to other languages I'm familiar with, it's difficult to differentiate between the singular and plural "you".  Oh well...)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline elephant

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 09:28:29 AM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 09:56:24 AM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant
 

LOL!

 :laugh: :laugh:

(Always good to have a laugh on a Weds. morning--thanks!  ;))
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 10:34:32 AM »
This may sound like a strange question, but do you ever feel like criticizing the ecumenism of someone who's not in communion with you?

To give a specific (albeit hypothetical) example, if I were to refer to myself and other non-Orthodox Christians as "non-Catholic", would you find that strange?
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 10:55:36 AM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant

Or,

you, y'all and (if a larger group is being referred to) all y'all.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 11:13:14 AM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant

Or,

you, y'all and (if a larger group is being referred to) all y'all.

 :laugh:

Okay.  That takes care of the South and Pennsyltucky.... ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 11:33:14 AM »
I've also heard "all of y'all".
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 12:06:13 PM »
I've also heard "all of y'all".

What's the plural "you" in New England?

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 12:23:07 PM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant

Or,

you, y'all and (if a larger group is being referred to) all y'all.

 :laugh:

Okay.  That takes care of the South and Pennsyltucky.... ;)

We say yins or yuns (often with "guys" added) here in Opennsylginia.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 12:30:50 PM »
Dear J Michael,

That would be you and youse.

Love, elephant

Or,

you, y'all and (if a larger group is being referred to) all y'all.

 :laugh:

Okay.  That takes care of the South and Pennsyltucky.... ;)

We say yins or yuns (often with "guys" added) here in Opennsylginia.

Would that make the *singular* form of it "yin" or "yun"?  Or maybe "yang"?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 02:08:20 PM »
The way Eastern Orthodox emphasize "Eastern" can be a bit off-putting. (Confer the recent conversation about Orthodox who say things like "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox b/c they aren't fully Eastern.")

No, no, of course, whoever said that mis-spoke.  Obviously Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox because they're Catholic.

As long as we've "gone there", I wonder if you could comment on a situation that seems to be pretty common: namely, a Latin Catholic (a.k.a. "Roman Catholic") transfers to an Eastern Catholic Church; then (after a long or short time there) converts to Orthodoxy saying that becoming Eastern Catholic was a "band-aid" or something to that effect.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »
The way Eastern Orthodox emphasize "Eastern" can be a bit off-putting. (Confer the recent conversation about Orthodox who say things like "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox b/c they aren't fully Eastern.")

No, no, of course, whoever said that mis-spoke.  Obviously Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox because they're Catholic.

As long as we've "gone there", I wonder if you could comment on a situation that seems to be pretty common: namely, a Latin Catholic (a.k.a. "Roman Catholic") transfers to an Eastern Catholic Church; then (after a long or short time there) converts to Orthodoxy saying that becoming Eastern Catholic was a "band-aid" or something to that effect.

Just an impression/personal observation, mind you, with absolutely nothing in the way of empirical data: the most common comment is that in Orthodoxy they found the "fullness of the faith." Eastern Catholicism may "look" or "sound" Orthodox, but it is still Catholic (as in Roman Catholic).Though I know next to nothing about it, so take it FWIW, Eastern Catholicism has always seemed sort of "neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring."
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Ecumenical criticism?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 03:25:28 PM »

We say yins or yuns (often with "guys" added) here in Opennsylginia.

Here in the Ozarks, we say 'y'all' and 'yuns'.  Both supposedly originated from the Scots-Irish.  This makes sense as Pennsylvania was largely settled by Scots-Irish who migrated west into the Appalachia region then on into the Ozarks.  My kin came from the KY Appalachians. 
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