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Author Topic: Ecumenical criticism?  (Read 1999 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: June 16, 2012, 09:11:16 PM »

This may sound like a strange question, but do you ever feel like criticizing the ecumenism of someone who's not in communion with you?

For example, often I encounter Protestants who have a wishy-washy Catholicism-is-fine-it's-just-not-for-me kind of attitude, and I feel like saying "Huh? Doesn't it bother you that we believe dogmas that you regard as false teachings?" but I don't because it would be bad etiquette for me to criticize the ecumenism of a non-Catholic.
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 09:14:54 PM »

With Protestants I don't mind at all, because dogmas are a funny thing in Protestantism.

However, I often feel like criticizing both the Armenians and the Assyrians.
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 01:53:10 PM »

Yes. I tend to have more respect for those who believe doctrine matters (even if their doctrines are wrong) than those who think everyone should just go with the flow.
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 09:10:46 PM »

With Protestants I don't mind at all, because dogmas are a funny thing in Protestantism.

However, I often feel like criticizing both the Armenians and the Assyrians.

Co-incidentally, I saw this only a moment after posting in the "theosis and oriental orthodoxy" thread on similar subject matter.

I must say I share your disquiet.
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 12:21:51 AM »

Yes. I tend to have more respect for those who believe doctrine matters (even if their doctrines are wrong) than those who think everyone should just go with the flow.

^This.
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 01:07:06 AM »

This may sound like a strange question, but do you ever feel like criticizing the ecumenism of someone who's not in communion with you?

For example, often I encounter Protestants who have a wishy-washy Catholicism-is-fine-it's-just-not-for-me kind of attitude, and I feel like saying "Huh? Doesn't it bother you that we believe dogmas that you regard as false teachings?" but I don't because it would be bad etiquette for me to criticize the ecumenism of a non-Catholic.
There are many aspects of Protestantism that I find...interesting. I pretty much agree with every post before mine, in addition. Protestants, in my experience, generally believe themselves to be tied to only the Bible, explaining why they regard many "other teachings" as false. But then they seem often to be ready (to a somewhat scary degree) to condemn someone... It's all rather sensitive, so I'm with you. Criticizing it is difficult, I don't want to get on anyone's bad side, or be judgmental/hypocritical in any way. Plus also, especially in my school, I might find myself tied up in a screaming match, practically, which is a terrible thing for me to instigate.
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 03:45:20 AM »

Ecumenism, like drugs, guns, and lollipops, can be used for either good or ill. Find your center, then own it!  police
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 04:21:27 AM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 04:34:56 AM »

In Communion is where it's at.
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 10:09:42 AM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

I understand you're thinking, but your last sentence is the reason why many, especially many Catholics, will never "convert" to Orthodoxy.  They may, however, grow in their  "o"rthodoxy.
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 11:23:55 AM »

Yes. I tend to have more respect for those who believe doctrine matters (even if their doctrines are wrong) than those who think everyone should just go with the flow.

Yes, I've decided that there are two kinds of people - those who think it actually matters what you believe and those who wonder what all the fuss it about, because it's all the same, isn't it?
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 12:39:25 PM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

In matters of faith, this is true. However, I hope you'd concede that there's nothing wrong with Roman Catholic (for example) parishes and dioceses, or even the entire Church, coming over to Orthodoxy, with their hierarchs and priests, but retaining their distinct rite (probably an English version of the Tridentine mass), crossing themselves left to right, calling their priests Fr. Lastname instead of Fr. Firstname, etc.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 02:25:02 PM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

In matters of faith, this is true. However, I hope you'd concede that there's nothing wrong with Roman Catholic (for example) parishes and dioceses, or even the entire Church, coming over to Orthodoxy, with their hierarchs and priests, but retaining their distinct rite (probably an English version of the Tridentine mass), crossing themselves left to right, calling their priests Fr. Lastname instead of Fr. Firstname, etc.

Wowzers!!!  They'd let us (or them, really, as I'm canonically Byzantine Catholic) retain our "distinct rite"??  **And** in English??  Lord have mercy!!  Really???  How could anyone refuse such generosity??  But that other thing, you know, the crossing thingy, is there something in the Canons that requires whether it must be left to right?  I don't know---sounds like a deal breaker to me.  Oh yeah, and that *other* thing, about the priests....are *all* their priests called "Fr. Lastname" (or is it "Fr. Firstname"?  You've confused me, now.)  What a funny last name, "Lastname".  I'm sure that's somewhere in their canons, too, isn't it?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 02:29:22 PM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

In matters of faith, this is true. However, I hope you'd concede that there's nothing wrong with Roman Catholic (for example) parishes and dioceses, or even the entire Church, coming over to Orthodoxy, with their hierarchs and priests, but retaining their distinct rite (probably an English version of the Tridentine mass), crossing themselves left to right, calling their priests Fr. Lastname instead of Fr. Firstname, etc.

Wowzers!!!  You'd let us (or them, really, as I'm canonically Byzantine Catholic) retain our "distinct rite"??  **And** in English??  Lord have mercy!!  Really???  How could anyone refuse such generosity??  But that other thing, you know, the crossing thingy, is there something in the Canons that requires whether it must be left to right?  I don't know---sounds like a deal breaker to me.  Oh yeah, and that *other* thing, about the priests....are *all* your priests called "Fr. Lastname" (or is it "Fr. Firstname"?  You've confused me, now.)  What a funny last name, "Lastname".  I'm sure that's somewhere in your canons, too, isn't it?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

LOL. I can see why these terms would be unacceptable to Roman Catholics, but are you prepared to offer any different terms to the Orthodox? Can we have full unity while the Orthodox refuse to accept:

1. Papal Infallibility
2. Papal Supremacy
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Filioque

Etc.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 02:44:29 PM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

In matters of faith, this is true. However, I hope you'd concede that there's nothing wrong with Roman Catholic (for example) parishes and dioceses, or even the entire Church, coming over to Orthodoxy, with their hierarchs and priests, but retaining their distinct rite (probably an English version of the Tridentine mass), crossing themselves left to right, calling their priests Fr. Lastname instead of Fr. Firstname, etc.

Wowzers!!!  You'd let us (or them, really, as I'm canonically Byzantine Catholic) retain our "distinct rite"??  **And** in English??  Lord have mercy!!  Really???  How could anyone refuse such generosity??  But that other thing, you know, the crossing thingy, is there something in the Canons that requires whether it must be left to right?  I don't know---sounds like a deal breaker to me.  Oh yeah, and that *other* thing, about the priests....are *all* your priests called "Fr. Lastname" (or is it "Fr. Firstname"?  You've confused me, now.)  What a funny last name, "Lastname".  I'm sure that's somewhere in your canons, too, isn't it?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

LOL. I can see why these terms would be unacceptable to Roman Catholics, but are you prepared to offer any different terms to the Orthodox? Can we have full unity while the Orthodox refuse to accept:

1. Papal Infallibility
2. Papal Supremacy
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Filioque

Etc.


Each of those items has been the subject of multiple threads, either singly or in various combinations, none of which, to my knowledge really got any of us anywhere.  In fact, some were so highly contentious and vitriolic that the only "where" they got anyone was closer to or into a state of pride and sin.  So, since you put it the way you have, well....I guess the answer to your last question is "no". 

But, it's never as simple as that, given the intercommunion that has taken place and currently takes place amongst Catholics and Orthodox in not a few parishes and dioceses around the world, some here in the good ol' U.S. of A.  (By the way, said intercommunion tends to drive certain hard-core Netodox and Hyperdox, just, well.....just *nuts*Kiss)
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 02:56:54 PM »

But, it's never as simple as that, given the intercommunion that has taken place and currently takes place amongst Catholics and Orthodox in not a few parishes and dioceses around the world, some here in the good ol' U.S. of A.  (By the way, said intercommunion tends to drive certain hard-core Netodox and Hyperdox, just, well.....just *nuts*!  Kiss)

Not just the hard-core, dear - let's not trivialize very real differences in theology and praxis. Intercommunion with members of the RCC is a big no-no with the Orthodox. Some places it is a cultural thing, I know, but still an aberration, and in the US of A, the Bishop would be quite interested to learn of any intercommunion.
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 03:27:51 PM »

Hope springs eternal,, eh J Michael? Never stop grasping at straws... Roll Eyes

Anyway, I don't know why you would criticize the actions of a communion you're not even in. Occasionally I hear criticisms of some within the Church by those within the Church, but any criticism that goes on of the Byzantines or the Catholics or whoever is on the level of doctrine or praxis, and even then it is exceedingly rare. We care about what we do, not so much what you do.
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

But, it's never as simple as that, given the intercommunion that has taken place and currently takes place amongst Catholics and Orthodox in not a few parishes and dioceses around the world, some here in the good ol' U.S. of A.  (By the way, said intercommunion tends to drive certain hard-core Netodox and Hyperdox, just, well.....just *nuts*!  Kiss)

Not just the hard-core, dear - let's not trivialize very real differences in theology and praxis. Intercommunion with members of the RCC is a big no-no with the Orthodox. Some places it is a cultural thing, I know, but still an aberration, and in the US of A, the Bishop would be quite interested to learn of any intercommunion.

I don't mean to trivialize or demean anybody's theology or praxis.  I know what the "rules" are.  And I also know what takes place in that funny, strange arena we call "reality".  From what I understand from sources I trust implicitly, in some parts here in the U.S.of A. the Bishop (I take it you mean the Orthodox bishop) already knows (shhh.....don't tell him, though--he might not want to know that he knows; or he might not want to know that you know that he knows  Wink) of the instances of intercommunion that occur within his diocese and others.  If he didn't at least tacitly approve of it, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen, unless he's got a corral full of unruly, disobedient priests.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 03:53:29 PM »

Hope springs eternal,, eh J Michael? Never stop grasping at straws... Roll Eyes

Anyway, I don't know why you would criticize the actions of a communion you're not even in. Occasionally I hear criticisms of some within the Church by those within the Church, but any criticism that goes on of the Byzantines or the Catholics or whoever is on the level of doctrine or praxis, and even then it is exceedingly rare. We care about what we do, not so much what you do.

"Where there's life, there's hope".  Last I checked, I'm still alive  Grin  Grin.  Just which "straws" do you think I'm "grasping at", anyway?

Just remind me--what actions of which communion am I criticizing?  And paleeeeze.....the criticisms that I've read on this board of Catholics of any variety are far from "exceedingly rare" (although the people leveling them tend to be in a small minority--as far as I can tell), and not always restricted, as you would love to believe, to the level of doctrine or praxis.  Sometimes it's gotten downright nasty on a very personal level, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

You may very well be speaking for and of yourself when you write "We care about what we do, not so much what you do", and I laud you for it.  There are others of the Orthodox Church who seem to care very much about what does and does happen in the Catholic Church.  And I wouldn't write that if I hadn't personally come across it in any number of places.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 04:25:58 PM »

But, it's never as simple as that, given the intercommunion that has taken place and currently takes place amongst Catholics and Orthodox in not a few parishes and dioceses around the world, some here in the good ol' U.S. of A.  (By the way, said intercommunion tends to drive certain hard-core Netodox and Hyperdox, just, well.....just *nuts*!  Kiss)

Not just the hard-core, dear - let's not trivialize very real differences in theology and praxis. Intercommunion with members of the RCC is a big no-no with the Orthodox. Some places it is a cultural thing, I know, but still an aberration, and in the US of A, the Bishop would be quite interested to learn of any intercommunion.

I don't mean to trivialize or demean anybody's theology or praxis.  I know what the "rules" are.  And I also know what takes place in that funny, strange arena we call "reality".  From what I understand from sources I trust implicitly, in some parts here in the U.S.of A. the Bishop (I take it you mean the Orthodox bishop) already knows (shhh.....don't tell him, though--he might not want to know that he knows; or he might not want to know that you know that he knows  Wink) of the instances of intercommunion that occur within his diocese and others.  If he didn't at least tacitly approve of it, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen, unless he's got a corral full of unruly, disobedient priests.

I would be really surprised to learn that an Orthodox Bishop would approve, even tacitly, though anything is possible. What I do know, in my own little corner of reality, as having been involved in several Orthodox-RCC events, attended by the local priests and laity, and approved by the Orthodox Metropolitan and the RC Archbishop, is that the Orthodox were extremely careful to avoid even the appearance of con-celebration or the like.
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 04:30:14 PM »

But, it's never as simple as that, given the intercommunion that has taken place and currently takes place amongst Catholics and Orthodox in not a few parishes and dioceses around the world, some here in the good ol' U.S. of A.  (By the way, said intercommunion tends to drive certain hard-core Netodox and Hyperdox, just, well.....just *nuts*!  Kiss)

Not just the hard-core, dear - let's not trivialize very real differences in theology and praxis. Intercommunion with members of the RCC is a big no-no with the Orthodox. Some places it is a cultural thing, I know, but still an aberration, and in the US of A, the Bishop would be quite interested to learn of any intercommunion.

I don't mean to trivialize or demean anybody's theology or praxis.  I know what the "rules" are.  And I also know what takes place in that funny, strange arena we call "reality".  From what I understand from sources I trust implicitly, in some parts here in the U.S.of A. the Bishop (I take it you mean the Orthodox bishop) already knows (shhh.....don't tell him, though--he might not want to know that he knows; or he might not want to know that you know that he knows  Wink) of the instances of intercommunion that occur within his diocese and others.  If he didn't at least tacitly approve of it, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen, unless he's got a corral full of unruly, disobedient priests.

I would be really surprised to learn that an Orthodox Bishop would approve, even tacitly, though anything is possible. What I do know, in my own little corner of reality, as having been involved in several Orthodox-RCC events, attended by the local priests and laity, and approved by the Orthodox Metropolitan and the RC Archbishop, is that the Orthodox were extremely careful to avoid even the appearance of con-celebration or the like.

Yup.  Anything is possible.

Guess you already know that many things in the North are different from down there in Dixie, eh?  'Specially in Pennsyltucky  Grin.
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 04:32:54 PM »

Guess you already know that many things in the North are different from down there in Dixie, eh?  'Specially in Pennsyltucky  Grin.

Yes, indeedy. As a matter of fact, I thank God for that everyday!
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 04:46:17 PM »

Guess you already know that many things in the North are different from down there in Dixie, eh?  'Specially in Pennsyltucky  Grin.

Yes, indeedy. As a matter of fact, I thank God for that everyday!

Yeah....me too  Grin Grin!  (Okay, not really.  Maybe once or twice a month year is enough.)
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 04:51:55 PM »

Just which "straws" do you think I'm "grasping at", anyway?

All the stuff about intercommunion between Orthodox and Catholics.

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Just remind me--what actions of which communion am I criticizing?
 

It's the topic of the thread. Chill out.

Quote
And paleeeeze.....the criticisms that I've read on this board of Catholics of any variety are far from "exceedingly rare" (although the people leveling them tend to be in a small minority--as far as I can tell), and not always restricted, as you would love to believe, to the level of doctrine or praxis.  Sometimes it's gotten downright nasty on a very personal level, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

This board is not the church. I think you might have missed what I was trying to convey in my post. My apologies.


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You may very well be speaking for and of yourself when you write "We care about what we do, not so much what you do", and I laud you for it.
 

Well, not just me, that is the general attitude of the entire church. To the extent that there are exceptions, they are at the individual level and brought out either through direct questioning or as a result of the somewhat anomalous position of Christianity in today's world, wherein it is actually quite easy for Orthodox and Catholics or Protestants to be in each others' business, particularly in the various diasporas of traditionally Orthodox ethnicities. That does not really alter the modus operandi of the church. I can say honestly that I have never witnessed the Roman Catholic Church being addressed in an ecclesiastical context (read: outside of specifically comparative writings). Occasionally the priest or a member of the laity will ask me something over the Agape meal because they know I come from an RC background, but that is because they honestly don't know something, not because they're looking for a chance to dump on the RCC. I think you're letting your hurt feelings from too much arguing with people here or elsewhere cloud your perception.

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There are others of the Orthodox Church who seem to care very much about what does and does happen in the Catholic Church.  And I wouldn't write that if I hadn't personally come across it in any number of places.

Sure. A number of places that weren't within the Orthodox Church, perhaps?
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 05:01:09 PM »

Just which "straws" do you think I'm "grasping at", anyway?

All the stuff about intercommunion between Orthodox and Catholics.

Quote
Just remind me--what actions of which communion am I criticizing?
 

It's the topic of the thread. Chill out.

Quote
And paleeeeze.....the criticisms that I've read on this board of Catholics of any variety are far from "exceedingly rare" (although the people leveling them tend to be in a small minority--as far as I can tell), and not always restricted, as you would love to believe, to the level of doctrine or praxis.  Sometimes it's gotten downright nasty on a very personal level, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

This board is not the church. I think you might have missed what I was trying to convey in my post. My apologies.


Quote
You may very well be speaking for and of yourself when you write "We care about what we do, not so much what you do", and I laud you for it.
 

Well, not just me, that is the general attitude of the entire church. To the extent that there are exceptions, they are at the individual level and brought out either through direct questioning or as a result of the somewhat anomalous position of Christianity in today's world, wherein it is actually quite easy for Orthodox and Catholics or Protestants to be in each others' business, particularly in the various diasporas of traditionally Orthodox ethnicities. That does not really alter the modus operandi of the church. I can say honestly that I have never witnessed the Roman Catholic Church being addressed in an ecclesiastical context (read: outside of specifically comparative writings). Occasionally the priest or a member of the laity will ask me something over the Agape meal because they know I come from an RC background, but that is because they honestly don't know something, not because they're looking for a chance to dump on the RCC. I think you're letting your hurt feelings from too much arguing with people here or elsewhere cloud your perception.

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There are others of the Orthodox Church who seem to care very much about what does and does happen in the Catholic Church.  And I wouldn't write that if I hadn't personally come across it in any number of places.

Sure. A number of places that weren't within the Orthodox Church, perhaps?

And a number that were. 

Gotta run now.  More tomorrow, perhaps  Wink.

(Btw, I'm cool as the proverbial cucumber  Grin.)
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 08:25:22 AM »

I criticize all Ecumenism. The truth should not have to change for deviations. The unity of Churches is not a negotiation but a conversion to Orthodoxy.

In matters of faith, this is true. However, I hope you'd concede that there's nothing wrong with Roman Catholic (for example) parishes and dioceses, or even the entire Church, coming over to Orthodoxy, with their hierarchs and priests, but retaining their distinct rite (probably an English version of the Tridentine mass), crossing themselves left to right, calling their priests Fr. Lastname instead of Fr. Firstname, etc.

Wowzers!!!  They'd let us (or them, really, as I'm canonically Byzantine Catholic) retain our "distinct rite"??  **And** in English??  Lord have mercy!!  Really???  How could anyone refuse such generosity??  But that other thing, you know, the crossing thingy, is there something in the Canons that requires whether it must be left to right?  I don't know---sounds like a deal breaker to me.  Oh yeah, and that *other* thing, about the priests....are *all* their priests called "Fr. Lastname" (or is it "Fr. Firstname"?  You've confused me, now.)  What a funny last name, "Lastname".  I'm sure that's somewhere in their canons, too, isn't it?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Hey, as long as they let us sing timeless Western hymns like "Morning has broken" I'm good. Grin

But seriously, I think your sarcasm and Roll Eyes x 5 are somewhat appropriate here. The way Eastern Orthodox emphasize "Eastern" can be a bit off-putting. (Confer the recent conversation about Orthodox who say things like "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox b/c they aren't fully Eastern.")
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2012, 09:01:56 AM »

The way Eastern Orthodox emphasize "Eastern" can be a bit off-putting. (Confer the recent conversation about Orthodox who say things like "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox b/c they aren't fully Eastern.")

No, no, of course, whoever said that mis-spoke.  Obviously Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox because they're Catholic.
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2012, 09:26:19 AM »

The way Eastern Orthodox emphasize "Eastern" can be a bit off-putting. (Confer the recent conversation about Orthodox who say things like "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox b/c they aren't fully Eastern.")

No, no, of course, whoever said that mis-spoke.

Therein lies the rub: it isn't just an isolated incident of an Orthodox saying it, but a persistent message that I* have been hearing.

* and other Catholics as well, at least judging from the number of Catholics who have cited it
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2012, 09:51:30 AM »

Although of course by stretching it a bit, you can see a little justification for that opinion. If you define the RCC as "western" and the Orthodox Church as "eastern," then simply by being in communion with Rome, that is, with the west, Eastern Catholics would not be "eastern" enough! Though the reality is that they are not Orthodox, no matter how similar they may appear.
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2012, 10:56:58 AM »

Just which "straws" do you think I'm "grasping at", anyway?

All the stuff about intercommunion between Orthodox and Catholics.

Quote
Just remind me--what actions of which communion am I criticizing?
 

It's the topic of the thread. Chill out.

Quote
And paleeeeze.....the criticisms that I've read on this board of Catholics of any variety are far from "exceedingly rare" (although the people leveling them tend to be in a small minority--as far as I can tell), and not always restricted, as you would love to believe, to the level of doctrine or praxis.  Sometimes it's gotten downright nasty on a very personal level, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

This board is not the church. I think you might have missed what I was trying to convey in my post. My apologies.


Quote
You may very well be speaking for and of yourself when you write "We care about what we do, not so much what you do", and I laud you for it.
 

Well, not just me, that is the general attitude of the entire church. To the extent that there are exceptions, they are at the individual level and brought out either through direct questioning or as a result of the somewhat anomalous position of Christianity in today's world, wherein it is actually quite easy for Orthodox and Catholics or Protestants to be in each others' business, particularly in the various diasporas of traditionally Orthodox ethnicities. That does not really alter the modus operandi of the church. I can say honestly that I have never witnessed the Roman Catholic Church being addressed in an ecclesiastical context (read: outside of specifically comparative writings). Occasionally the priest or a member of the laity will ask me something over the Agape meal because they know I come from an RC background, but that is because they honestly don't know something, not because they're looking for a chance to dump on the RCC. I think you're letting your hurt feelings from too much arguing with people here or elsewhere cloud your perception.

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There are others of the Orthodox Church who seem to care very much about what does and does happen in the Catholic Church.  And I wouldn't write that if I hadn't personally come across it in any number of places.

Sure. A number of places that weren't within the Orthodox Church, perhaps?

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.  It is not rampant or even very common in most places.  It does, however, happen.  There are no straws being grasped at here.  I'm just stating fact.  God alone knows if and when it will be more widespread or even commonplace.  God alone knows whether this side of eternity or not the Orthodox and Catholic Churches will be reunited.  My prayer is that they will be.  Now, if *that* is grasping at straws, I'm more than happy to do so.

2.  On a one to one, individual basis with all the Orthodox clergy I've interacted with (with one or two exceptions, that have occurred on this board) I would agree that there's been little to no "Catholic bashing" and few expressions of any kind of contempt, always very politely worded, towards Catholicism/Catholic theology, praxis, ecclesiology.  The concern has almost always been about Orthodox praxis and theology, etc., as it rightly should be.

Within the context of "ecumenical" "dialogue", on the internet, in journals, and within the various Orthodox institutions, there is and has been to varying degree, concern amongst Orthodox about what Catholics do and do not do.  Within reason, this is totally appropriate and necessary.  When it devolves into "it's *only* my way or the highway" or bashing, demeaning, belittling, and dismissing Catholics and things Catholic, which in my experience almost always happens either on the internet or within the context of discussion with individuals, then it has gone too far, imho.  That kind of thing has nothing at all to do with any kind of efforts to re-unite the One Church that man as ripped asunder.

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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2012, 11:01:49 AM »

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.  It is not rampant or even very common in most places.  It does, however, happen. 

As well as with Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists and so on. And what that means?
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2012, 11:02:43 AM »

Although of course by stretching it a bit, you can see a little justification for that opinion. If you define the RCC as "western" and the Orthodox Church as "eastern," then simply by being in communion with Rome, that is, with the west, Eastern Catholics would not be "eastern" enough! Though the reality is that they are not Orthodox, no matter how similar they may appear.

Why stretch it?  There are "Roman" Catholics in the "east", and "Orthodox" in the west.  The Church is universal, regardless of our geographical biases.  The whole concept of being or not being "eastern" (or "western") enough is just ridiculous and serves no purpose other than to alienate and divide.
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2012, 11:05:28 AM »

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.  It is not rampant or even very common in most places.  It does, however, happen. 

As well as with Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists and so on. And what that means?

What that means is nothing, because we're not discussing them and they are part of no Christian communion, let alone Catholic or Orthodox.  Now, if *you* wish to attach meaning to that, by all means, go right ahead, and have fun with it  Wink.
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2012, 11:07:56 AM »

What that means is nothing, because we're not discussing them and they are part of no Christian communion, let alone Catholic or Orthodox.  Now, if *you* wish to attach meaning to that, by all means, go right ahead, and have fun with it  Wink.

It's you who is trying to find some hidden meaning in occasional violations of the Orthodox teachings.
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2012, 11:23:00 AM »

What that means is nothing, because we're not discussing them and they are part of no Christian communion, let alone Catholic or Orthodox.  Now, if *you* wish to attach meaning to that, by all means, go right ahead, and have fun with it  Wink.

It's you who is trying to find some hidden meaning in occasional violations of the Orthodox teachings.

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Oh please.  There is no "hidden meaning", nor am I trying to find one.  There is, however, fact.  I couldn't give a rat's rear-end whether you or anyone else "likes" it or not, because whether we like or dislike a fact changes it not a whit.  But do not accuse me of "trying to find some hidden meaning in [the fact of] occasional violations of the Orthodox teachings".  They may (or may not) be more "occasional" than either of us is aware.
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« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2012, 01:11:35 PM »

Oh please.  There is no "hidden meaning", nor am I trying to find one.  There is, however, fact.  I couldn't give a rat's rear-end whether you or anyone else "likes" it or not, because whether we like or dislike a fact changes it not a whit.  But do not accuse me of "trying to find some hidden meaning in [the fact of] occasional violations of the Orthodox teachings".  They may (or may not) be more "occasional" than either of us is aware.

Either way, your point proves little.  As others mentioned, communing RC's is still an aberration and violation of Church teachings.  If it happens, that's unfortunate, but it proves nothing other than the negligence, ignorance (unlikely), or willful disobedience of certain priests, who can be assumed to be in the extreme minority.

I think comments against your ascribing "hidden meaning" to these incidents is a result of your implication that this is a de facto practice of the Orthodox Church, when it isn't.
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2012, 01:16:42 PM »

However, I often feel like criticizing both the Armenians and the Assyrians.

Uh oh, now what did we do wrong?  Huh
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2012, 01:17:52 PM »

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.

And what you make of these instances says more about you than it does about the reality of Orthodox/Roman Catholic relations.

Quote
Within the context of "ecumenical" "dialogue", on the internet, in journals, and within the various Orthodox institutions, there is and has been to varying degree, concern amongst Orthodox about what Catholics do and do not do.  Within reason, this is totally appropriate and necessary.  When it devolves into "it's *only* my way or the highway" or bashing, demeaning, belittling, and dismissing Catholics and things Catholic, which in my experience almost always happens either on the internet or within the context of discussion with individuals, then it has gone too far, imho.  That kind of thing has nothing at all to do with any kind of efforts to re-unite the One Church that man as ripped asunder.

It is interesting that you should phrase your objection in this way ("it's *only* my way or the highway"), given the OP that bemoans lax attitudes toward what should be principled doctrinal stances. When you have the fullness of truth, as you believe that you do and as we believe that we do, there really isn't any compromise to be had. You either become Orthodox or stay Catholic and stop complaining against us for not joining you.
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2012, 01:46:51 PM »

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.

And what you make of these instances says more about you than it does about the reality of Orthodox/Roman Catholic relations.

Quote
Within the context of "ecumenical" "dialogue", on the internet, in journals, and within the various Orthodox institutions, there is and has been to varying degree, concern amongst Orthodox about what Catholics do and do not do.  Within reason, this is totally appropriate and necessary.  When it devolves into "it's *only* my way or the highway" or bashing, demeaning, belittling, and dismissing Catholics and things Catholic, which in my experience almost always happens either on the internet or within the context of discussion with individuals, then it has gone too far, imho.  That kind of thing has nothing at all to do with any kind of efforts to re-unite the One Church that man as ripped asunder.

It is interesting that you should phrase your objection in this way ("it's *only* my way or the highway"), given the OP that bemoans lax attitudes toward what should be principled doctrinal stances. When you have the fullness of truth, as you believe that you do and as we believe that we do, there really isn't any compromise to be had. You either become Orthodox or stay Catholic and stop complaining against us for not joining you.

What is it, precisely, that (you think) I make of these instances?

Oh, I fully intend to "stay Catholic", and I've never really complained against you not joining us. (Although I would truly love to see it happen, I'm not really that much of a fool and don't *expect* it to, not in my lifetime anyway).  In fact, the complaints that I have seen and heard come far more from the Orthodox against Catholics not joining them.  Your experience, however, may be different.
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:23 PM »

Oh please.  There is no "hidden meaning", nor am I trying to find one.  There is, however, fact.  I couldn't give a rat's rear-end whether you or anyone else "likes" it or not, because whether we like or dislike a fact changes it not a whit.  But do not accuse me of "trying to find some hidden meaning in [the fact of] occasional violations of the Orthodox teachings".  They may (or may not) be more "occasional" than either of us is aware.

Either way, your point proves little.  As others mentioned, communing RC's is still an aberration and violation of Church teachings.  If it happens, that's unfortunate, but it proves nothing other than the negligence, ignorance (unlikely), or willful disobedience of certain priests, who can be assumed to be in the extreme minority.

I think comments against your ascribing "hidden meaning" to these incidents is a result of your implication that this is a de facto practice of the Orthodox Church, when it isn't.

Oy vey!  You guys just don't get it, do you?  Well, some of you anyway.  Never once have I said OR implied that Catholics communing with Orthodox in Orthodox Divine Liturgies is "de facto practice of the Orthodox Church".  I know that it is not.  You know that it is not.  And I would imagine many, if not all, who participate in such intercommunion, know it.  Any such implication is in your mind only, not mine.  I have only stated a fact, about a practice that is not enormously widespread or even sanctioned by The Orthodox Church.  But...it exists, and you cannot deny it, try as you might.  If it bothers you so much then why not track down the evil perpetrators and their enablers and "deal" with them?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2012, 01:52:13 PM »

But...it exists, and you cannot deny it, try as you might.

Maybe I don't get it.  What is your point?

I've not denied that it exists. Why do you keep trying to "prove" that inter-communion occurs, other than to imply some sort of tacit approval within the Church? 
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2012, 02:10:16 PM »

But...it exists, and you cannot deny it, try as you might.

Maybe I don't get it.  What is your point?

I've not denied that it exists. Why do you keep trying to "prove" that inter-communion occurs, other than to imply some sort of tacit approval within the Church? 

The point is, that it happens.  Pure and simple.  Maybe against the rules of both Churches.  Maybe illicitly.  Maybe "unto condemnation" (which is for God alone to determine).  Maybe this, and maybe that.  But....that's it. 

Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  Just like on this thread.  So, if it'll make y'all happy, I'll cease and desist in mentioning it (at least for a little while, anyway  Grin). 
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2012, 02:13:33 PM »

1.  Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, there *is* intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox.  It is not rampant or even very common in most places.  It does, however, happen. 

As well as with Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists and so on. And what that means?

What that means is nothing, because we're not discussing them and they are part of no Christian communion, let alone Catholic or Orthodox.  Now, if *you* wish to attach meaning to that, by all means, go right ahead, and have fun with it  Wink.

I'm reminded of the words of Brian Regan: "I wish I would have known that was an option when I was a kid in school."
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2012, 03:59:23 PM »

Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  

Perhaps a kerfluffle ensues because the sort of thing you mention is not a grass-roots movement, nor normative nor tolerated and/or encouraged. At least not according to my experiences. On the contrary, as I said before, even at RC/Orthodox events which were conducted in a spirit of courtesy and friendship, great care was taken by the Orthodox to ensure that there was not even a suggestion of inter-communion.


Most Orthodox, at least according to my observation/experience, do not spend a lot of time and energy on intercommunion or reunification or whatever you want to call it. Or even thinking about the RCC. If asked, they might say that it would be nice if it occurred, but mostly it's not even on their radar.
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2012, 04:34:47 PM »

Every once in a while there occurs within the context of a particular thread or discussion a point at which it seems appropriate to mention it.  I used to (and every once in a while still do) think that said inter-communion is a sort of nascent  "grass-roots" movement towards greater and fuller communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  That thought is, I know full well, shared by others.  It seems that every time I do mention it, one or more Orthodox get their knickers totally in a twist about it and a whole kerfuffle ensues.  

Perhaps a kerfluffle ensues because the sort of thing you mention is not a grass-roots movement, nor normative nor tolerated and/or encouraged. At least not according to my experiences. On the contrary, as I said before, even at RC/Orthodox events which were conducted in a spirit of courtesy and friendship, great care was taken by the Orthodox to ensure that there was not even a suggestion of inter-communion.


Most Orthodox, at least according to my observation/experience, do not spend a lot of time and energy on intercommunion or reunification or whatever you want to call it. Or even thinking about the RCC. If asked, they might say that it would be nice if it occurred, but mostly it's not even on their radar.

You may, indeed be right about it not being "a grass-roots movement".  I don't know, to be honest. 

Those organizing and/or officiating at the RC/OC events you refer to I'm sure would go to great pains to ensure that all appropriate rules/canons/protocols were closely adhered to, as indeed they ought.  Those events are altogether different from the kind of inter-communion we've been kerfuffling ( Wink) about.

What you say about the radar of most Orthodox applies equally, if not to an even greater extent, to most Catholics.  Perhaps....just perhaps, if more Orthodox and more Catholics were well enough grounded in, and sure enough about their *faith* as Christians more of us would think about, given adequate catechesis, the ramifications of the schism between us and would feel compelled to pray more, do more, work harder at healing that schism.  Is *that* grasping at straws?

(Hey mods--what happened to the border thingys--why's everything in the blue box?)
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