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Author Topic: Exclusive use of the word 'Catholic'  (Read 841 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 14, 2012, 08:30:52 PM »

I just read in another forum (discussing the possible SSPX reconciliation with Rome) that the Vatican has filed for the "proprietary right to the name Catholic". It's new to me, it sounds like they are seeking an International trademark or brand recognition.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9409417&postcount=47

Has anyone else heard of this? I still have not seen any news reports, perhaps it has been discussed here somewhere ...

If this is a true report, what are the implications for Holy Orthodoxy? I understand that no Orthodox Christian is going to like this, but I have never heard of it before and I wonder if Orthodox hierarchs have been aware of it and taken a formal position on the subject.
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 08:40:00 PM »

I just read in another forum (discussing the possible SSPX reconciliation with Rome) that the Vatican has filed for the "proprietary right to the name Catholic". It's new to me, it sounds like they are seeking an International trademark or brand recognition.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9409417&postcount=47

Has anyone else heard of this? I still have not seen any news reports, perhaps it has been discussed here somewhere ...

If this is a true report, what are the implications for Holy Orthodoxy? I understand that no Orthodox Christian is going to like this, but I have never heard of it before and I wonder if Orthodox hierarchs have been aware of it and taken a formal position on the subject.
I haven't heard of it.  Can't see how they could do it.
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 08:42:50 PM »

I haven't heard of it.  Can't see how they could do it.

Yeah, what he said. I mean, it's not like the Orthodox just use Catholic informally (which would be an issue even then), but for some Orthodox Churches it's part of the official/legal name.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 09:11:02 PM »

They won't be able to prove that their beliefs are, indeed, catholic.  And because there is already a centuries old precedent of Orthodox Christians using the word catholic for our beliefs (which actually apply to Eastern Orthodoxy), they'll end up losing and Pope Benedict will have egg on his face.  

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Post modified by moderator to make more respectful... Whereas we do not require the use of proper clerical titles in reference to Roman Catholic clergy, we do expect that you will at least respect his office within his church by using a title appropriate to his position and free of all pejoratives. "Captain Ratz" is a very disrespectful (iow, pejorative) way to speak of the current Pope of Rome and is therefore not acceptable.

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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 09:11:22 PM »

I just read in another forum (discussing the possible SSPX reconciliation with Rome) that the Vatican has filed for the "proprietary right to the name Catholic". It's new to me, it sounds like they are seeking an International trademark or brand recognition.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9409417&postcount=47

Has anyone else heard of this? I still have not seen any news reports, perhaps it has been discussed here somewhere ...

If this is a true report, what are the implications for Holy Orthodoxy? I understand that no Orthodox Christian is going to like this, but I have never heard of it before and I wonder if Orthodox hierarchs have been aware of it and taken a formal position on the subject.
I haven't heard of it.  Can't see how they could do it.
The Vatican has paid $185,000 to control the use of the internet address extension dot-catholic. The Vatican was the only applicant asking for .catholic.
No one else applied for the use of that internet extension:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202470.htm
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 10:03:09 PM »

"The applications for Latin alphabet domain names revealed June 13 included one request for ".christmas," but no requests for ".christian." Two applicants asked for ".church," but no one asked for ".orthodox," ".lutheran" or ".anglican." Seven applicants asked for ".love," one requested ".islam," but no one requested ".jewish."

Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 09:06:07 AM »

"The applications for Latin alphabet domain names revealed June 13 included one request for ".christmas," but no requests for ".christian." Two applicants asked for ".church," but no one asked for ".orthodox," ".lutheran" or ".anglican." Seven applicants asked for ".love," one requested ".islam," but no one requested ".jewish."

Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Are these new endings like .com and .org?
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 09:14:00 AM »

I wouldn't stay awake at night imagining that this is another great Roman plot. The word Catholic is not a trademark nor a proprietary term.

For example, in one of the myriad of church property rights cases between factions of Greek Catholic congregations in Pennsylvania during the mid-20th century, the Commonwealth Supreme Court rejected the claim by the Greek Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh that the term 'Greek Catholic' was entitled to proprietary protection. That was one of the reasons why Rome changed the legal name of the (Ruthenian) Greek Catholic Eparchy of the United States to the  Byzantine Catholic Church. In Canada they are known as the Slovak Greek Catholics and in Europe, just plain Greek Catholics. To clarify the property status of their congregations, they legally reincorporated local parishes as Byzantine Catholic so as not to leave open the door to future litigation by would-be Orthodox factions.  FYI, the problem did not occur within the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community as the use of the nationality - Ukrainian - historically preceeded Greek Catholic, hence there was no confusion.

For that reason, you will still find some Orthodox parishes with the term 'Greek Catholic' within their legal names, such as "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic', "Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic" and in a few instances, even plain old "Greek Catholic." Just remember, as Will Shakespeare observed, 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 10:46:09 AM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?

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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 11:57:30 AM »

I wouldn't stay awake at night imagining that this is another great Roman plot. The word Catholic is not a trademark nor a proprietary term.

For example, in one of the myriad of church property rights cases between factions of Greek Catholic congregations in Pennsylvania during the mid-20th century, the Commonwealth Supreme Court rejected the claim by the Greek Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh that the term 'Greek Catholic' was entitled to proprietary protection. That was one of the reasons why Rome changed the legal name of the (Ruthenian) Greek Catholic Eparchy of the United States to the  Byzantine Catholic Church. In Canada they are known as the Slovak Greek Catholics and in Europe, just plain Greek Catholics. To clarify the property status of their congregations, they legally reincorporated local parishes as Byzantine Catholic so as not to leave open the door to future litigation by would-be Orthodox factions.  FYI, the problem did not occur within the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community as the use of the nationality - Ukrainian - historically preceeded Greek Catholic, hence there was no confusion.

For that reason, you will still find some Orthodox parishes with the term 'Greek Catholic' within their legal names, such as "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic', "Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic" and in a few instances, even plain old "Greek Catholic." Just remember, as Will Shakespeare observed, 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'



I find this disturbing.  Because, I always heard and read that the reason for the name change was the Ruthenian immigrants were mistakenly thought to be ethnic Greeks when they immigrated to the US and called themselves Greek Catholics.   Nothing was ever mentioned about a lawsuit trying to take ownership of the name to prevent more defections and property transfer to the Orthodox side.  Hmmm, I wonder why not?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »

I wouldn't stay awake at night imagining that this is another great Roman plot. The word Catholic is not a trademark nor a proprietary term.

For example, in one of the myriad of church property rights cases between factions of Greek Catholic congregations in Pennsylvania during the mid-20th century, the Commonwealth Supreme Court rejected the claim by the Greek Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh that the term 'Greek Catholic' was entitled to proprietary protection. That was one of the reasons why Rome changed the legal name of the (Ruthenian) Greek Catholic Eparchy of the United States to the  Byzantine Catholic Church. In Canada they are known as the Slovak Greek Catholics and in Europe, just plain Greek Catholics. To clarify the property status of their congregations, they legally reincorporated local parishes as Byzantine Catholic so as not to leave open the door to future litigation by would-be Orthodox factions.  FYI, the problem did not occur within the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community as the use of the nationality - Ukrainian - historically preceeded Greek Catholic, hence there was no confusion.

For that reason, you will still find some Orthodox parishes with the term 'Greek Catholic' within their legal names, such as "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic', "Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic" and in a few instances, even plain old "Greek Catholic." Just remember, as Will Shakespeare observed, 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'



I find this disturbing.  Because, I always heard and read that the reason for the name change was the Ruthenian immigrants were mistakenly thought to be ethnic Greeks when they immigrated to the US and called themselves Greek Catholics.   Nothing was ever mentioned about a lawsuit trying to take ownership of the name to prevent more defections and property transfer to the Orthodox side.  Hmmm, I wonder why not?  Roll Eyes

I have heard both explanations over the years, but....It is very byzantine indeed. Wink ...on the one hand you have the 'official reason', i.e. confusion over the term 'Greek' and the 'real reason' - the property issues.  Wink  If the official reason were the 'real' reason - then why were the Ukrainians in the USA not retitled as 'Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics' ?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:20:01 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 12:29:56 PM »

I don't think the people who sell Internet domains really care about the nuances of your preferred definitions. It's not like they're a council of bishops or something.

It's a product, and someone was ahead of you in line to buy it. Period.

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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 03:17:45 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



Uh huh.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 03:21:29 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I've never been asked if I'm a Muslim.  I'm always asked if I'm Jewish if I say, "I'm Orthodox".

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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 03:47:34 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I've never been asked if I'm a Muslim.  I'm always asked if I'm Jewish if I say, "I'm Orthodox".



That's the reaction I've always gotten to (except once, when a cousin of mine asked me if it was the Greek Orthodox or the Russian Orthodox, which stunned me - but most definitely never did anyone think "Oh, you're Muslims).
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 06:52:01 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I find this surprising.  It could be that the extremist Muslims are either trying to modify themselves by referring to themselves as 'Orthodox', or even more likely, trying to denigrate the Orthodox Christians by having Americans believe they are the same as the Muslim fanatics.   It could be just another propaganda ploy, after all they are experts at it...or at least Turkey is.      I guess the hope is to turn Americans against the Christians in areas where they want to restore their caliphates.

Of course it could always be our State Department, since we seem to bow down to Saudi demands.  Let's not forget Bill Clinton's war and the poor Albanian Muslim Kosovans that were seen exiting Kosovo from morning to night on CNN.  Maybe Hillary's following her husband's policy?  Huh

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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2012, 06:56:29 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I find this surprising.  It could be that the extremist Muslims are either trying to modify themselves by referring to themselves as 'Orthodox', or even more likely, trying to denigrate the Orthodox Christians by having Americans believe they are the same as the Muslim fanatics.   It could be just another propaganda ploy, after all they are experts at it...or at least Turkey is.      I guess the hope is to turn Americans against the Christians in areas where they want to restore their caliphates.

Of course it could always be our State Department, since we seem to bow down to Saudi demands.  Let's not forget Bill Clinton's war and the poor Albanian Muslim Kosovans that were seen exiting Kosovo from morning to night on CNN.  Maybe Hillary's following her husband's policy?  Huh



Let's play Hangman, I'll fill in a few letters for you: P**AN**A

« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 06:57:07 PM by JamesRottnek » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 07:03:08 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I've never been asked if I'm a Muslim.  I'm always asked if I'm Jewish if I say, "I'm Orthodox".



That's the reaction I've always gotten to (except once, when a cousin of mine asked me if it was the Greek Orthodox or the Russian Orthodox, which stunned me - but most definitely never did anyone think "Oh, you're Muslims).

Maybe it's the areas we live in, because in the New York City area, Orthodox has always been related to religious Jews.   Things might be changing though.  One never knows?   Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I find this surprising.  It could be that the extremist Muslims are either trying to modify themselves by referring to themselves as 'Orthodox', or even more likely, trying to denigrate the Orthodox Christians by having Americans believe they are the same as the Muslim fanatics.   It could be just another propaganda ploy, after all they are experts at it...or at least Turkey is.      I guess the hope is to turn Americans against the Christians in areas where they want to restore their caliphates.

Of course it could always be our State Department, since we seem to bow down to Saudi demands.  Let's not forget Bill Clinton's war and the poor Albanian Muslim Kosovans that were seen exiting Kosovo from morning to night on CNN.  Maybe Hillary's following her husband's policy?  Huh



Let's play Hangman, I'll fill in a few letters for you: P**AN**A



Are you saying he's lying?  Well I don't.  Huh

By the way, how much do you know about the Kafkaz Emirate or Devotoglu's foreign policy?  Tongue
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:10:29 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 07:18:56 PM »


Somebody should write their hierarch to claim .orthodox before some vagante does.

Exactly my thought! The mainstream media is using lately the term "Orthodox" to describe Salafist Muslims. This is a carefully planed, intentionally executed campaign to provoke the Orthodox world. Just like, when a Muslim woman dresses up like a nun, a Muslim man grows his beard and are identified everywhere as a terrorist or hate-preacher, their appearance destroys the original look of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Men. I will copy and use your look to blackmail you, to destroy you!  The frequency of the usage has worked for them. Whenever I tell someone I am Orthodox, they ask me, are you a Muslim? Whenever I tell someone I don't it this, 'cause I am fasting, they ask me, is it already Ramadan?

Can you see what is going on?



I find this surprising.  It could be that the extremist Muslims are either trying to modify themselves by referring to themselves as 'Orthodox', or even more likely, trying to denigrate the Orthodox Christians by having Americans believe they are the same as the Muslim fanatics.   It could be just another propaganda ploy, after all they are experts at it...or at least Turkey is.      I guess the hope is to turn Americans against the Christians in areas where they want to restore their caliphates.

Of course it could always be our State Department, since we seem to bow down to Saudi demands.  Let's not forget Bill Clinton's war and the poor Albanian Muslim Kosovans that were seen exiting Kosovo from morning to night on CNN.  Maybe Hillary's following her husband's policy?  Huh



Let's play Hangman, I'll fill in a few letters for you: P**AN**A



Are you saying he's lying?  Well I don't.  Huh

By the way, how much do you know about the Kafkaz Emirate or Devotoglu's foreign policy?  Tongue

Lying has neither P's, nor A's.
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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 07:09:38 PM »

Will never happen.  The use of "Orthodox Catholic" as an official name of the Orthodox Church and of particular dioceses will not allow it. Even if there are lawsuits, the wrong side will not prevail.

Sadly, in a meeting I had recently, a priest said that we should change "Catholic" in the creed to a small "c," revealing ignorance that I did not think that he had.   He still a good priest, though (too bad he doesn't know he is Orthodox Catholic). 
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