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neon_knights
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« on: June 14, 2012, 07:43:34 PM »

Would it be appropriate to use some Protestant hymns (e.g., Bach cantatas)in Orthodox services?
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 07:51:53 PM »

Would it be appropriate to use some Protestant hymns (e.g., Bach cantatas)in Orthodox services?

I've heard protestant Christmas carols sung after liturgy inside an OCA church before....
Some protestant hymns are singing psalms like Orthodoxy does, but just to a different sound....
Are you speaking of "a cappella"?
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 07:55:41 PM »

Would it be appropriate to use some Protestant hymns (e.g., Bach cantatas)in Orthodox services?

No.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 07:56:13 PM »

Ah, Bach!
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 08:00:36 PM »

I'm not sure, I know that I've heard hymns in Protestant churches that I've heard at my own church before, but not hymns from any service. Last Sunday when I was singing, "Receive me today, O Son of God, as a partaker of Your Mystical Supper..." I actually was thinking, I wonder if they sing this ever in the Methodist church that my mother grew up in. It's also important to recognize that there are Protestant churches that get developed today, that take a lot of influence from the Orthodox Church, therefore they aren't "Protestant hymns" in Orthodox churches, but hymns used in Protestant churches also in the Orthodox churches. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 11:41:29 PM »

NEVER.

Though musically and aesthetically of high quality (particularly the Lutheran hymnography of the 16th-18th century) and with texts that are in many ways orthodox, they are not part of the Eastern Rite.  You want that stuff, go western Rite (which, IMHO, uses bad English hymn tunes).
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 11:48:23 PM »

I don't know. Either way though I still have not given them up. Despite my generally anti-Protestant behavior on this board, I still find myself enjoying the upbeat Gospel hymns that are sung in Black Churches down South.
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 11:52:36 PM »

I don't know. Either way though I still have not given them up. Despite my generally anti-Protestant behavior on this board, I still find myself enjoying the upbeat Gospel hymns that are sung in Black Churches down South.

Good. Enjoy them at home, not in an Orthodox Church where they do not belong.

In general [not aimed at you, James] I grow tired of former Protestants insisting that the hymns they loved so much growing up should be used in Orthodox Churches which use the Byzantine Rite.  They don't belong there. Why should the rich hymnography of the Eastern Rite be supplanted so people can be nostalgic for what they left behind?  It irritates me.
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 12:00:30 AM »

I don't know. Either way though I still have not given them up. Despite my generally anti-Protestant behavior on this board, I still find myself enjoying the upbeat Gospel hymns that are sung in Black Churches down South.

Good. Enjoy them at home, not in an Orthodox Church where they do not belong.

In general [not aimed at you, James] I grow tired of former Protestants insisting that the hymns they loved so much growing up should be used in Orthodox Churches which use the Byzantine Rite.  They don't belong there. Why should the rich hymnography of the Eastern Rite be supplanted so people can be nostalgic for what they left behind?  It irritates me.

Does it really matter as long as there is nothing theologically unsound about it and it brings people closer to God? I mean, I know that many Protestant hymns might be unsound from an Orthodox perspective, but not all of them are depending how you interpret it. And if there are certain hymns that are not heretical or theologically unsound from an Orthodox perspective and they bring the people closer to God, then why not use them? The purpose of the Church is to bring people to God; not be just a museum to preserve ancient hymns.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 12:05:47 AM »

In Romania all sorts of extra hymnoghraphy are used in church liberally. Even if they aren't "Protestant" in the technical sense, they are often sung by the local protestants too. Especially those written by Traian Dorz.
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 01:28:50 AM »

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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 01:56:09 AM »

Content aside, where in a service would a protestant hymn even be sung? There's no point in the divine services where any random song can be sung. Every single hymn is written for use a specific place in the service, and their usage is governed by the various liturgical books.

Well, I guess there are no defined hymns for singing during the people's communion, but that would be the most inappropriate time of all for such hymns.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 03:27:53 AM »

Content aside, where in a service would a protestant hymn even be sung? There's no point in the divine services where any random song can be sung. Every single hymn is written for use a specific place in the service, and their usage is governed by the various liturgical books.

Well, I guess there are no defined hymns for singing during the people's communion, but that would be the most inappropriate time of all for such hymns.

This.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 09:26:36 AM »

Over the years, I have heard a number of a capella choral arrangements of Eastern hymns set to 'western' music. I can think of an arrangement of Our Father set to a heavy baroque piece by Mozart as well as ones by several other composers of that period and the Cherubic Hymn arranged to the notes of 'Nearer my God to Thee.' I have not heard the singing of actual 'Protestant' hymns outside of the context of Christmas carols post liturgy however.

As to the aforementioned choral pieces, I suppose one could argue that they are no different than pieces composed by their contemporaries such as Bortiansky who either trained under these masters or who were influenced by them while studying composition in Western Europe.(After the revolution, my home church hired a refugee as Choir Director who was trained in St. Petersburg and he brought with him many such compositions which were popular in pre-revolutionary Russia and across the Hapsburg world as well. Ironic that what was a non-Russian Greek Catholic parish at the time would hire a Russian Orthodox choral director but that's the way things were 'back then.') I know that there are many of you who will 'tut-tut' about the typical choral repertoire found in many OCA, ROCOR and other Slavic churches, but that argument has been played out here over the years on other threads.

So - actual hymns have no place, but I am not going to quibble about such long-standing choral arrangments.
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 09:38:38 AM »

My own personal advice would be for all Protestant hymns to be forbidden during the Divine Liturgy. 

However, if people like them and were raised with them and miss them terribly, then let them sing them at home. There is nothing wrong with that.

In my parish, for instance, we never sing non-Orthodox Christmas hymns during the Divine Liturgy.  However, BEFORE in Christmas Eve Vigil, we gather in the Parish Hall for the Holy Supper.  And after the Holy Supper, we sing lots of the Western Christmas hymns, both the Protestant and Catholic ones. Sometimes kids in the parish that play a musical instrument will entertain us too.  But it all stays in the parish hall.  It never intrudes into the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 09:51:51 AM »

I don't know. Either way though I still have not given them up. Despite my generally anti-Protestant behavior on this board, I still find myself enjoying the upbeat Gospel hymns that are sung in Black Churches down South.

Good. Enjoy them at home, not in an Orthodox Church where they do not belong.

In general [not aimed at you, James] I grow tired of former Protestants insisting that the hymns they loved so much growing up should be used in Orthodox Churches which use the Byzantine Rite.  They don't belong there. Why should the rich hymnography of the Eastern Rite be supplanted so people can be nostalgic for what they left behind?  It irritates me.

Does it really matter as long as there is nothing theologically unsound about it and it brings people closer to God?
James, as hard as you are on Protestants, do you really want to use the same argument they use to justify so much?

On the topic of the OP, I have a Baptist hymnal because it contains many of the songs of my childhood (my mother would sing them as she worked around the house), but I wouldn't demand it be brought into the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2012, 10:57:42 AM »

Would it be appropriate to use some Protestant hymns (e.g., Bach cantatas)in Orthodox services?

It is not uncommon to see this just before and after the wedding service (I personally would avoid the bridal chorus from Lohengrin). Bach's Wedding cantata is lovely which can be done nicely with a soprano, oboist and a cello or keyboard. Handel is also great for weddings.
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 11:29:24 AM »

It is not uncommon to see this just before and after the wedding service

Sadly, the same respect shown to the Divine Liturgy and the daily offices is not shown when it comes to Baptism, Weddings and Funerals, which for many have become private rites of passage, separate from the rest of the life of the Church, that they can alter and tailor to suit their own personal preferences.
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 11:55:36 AM »

We use the St. Ambrose Hymnal in the WR and it has some stuff from Bach in it.
The big thing is that it is theologically sound, not who its from I imagine.

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