OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 10:12:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: English Standard Version  (Read 2171 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Big Chris
Formerly "mint"
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic Diocese of Charlotte, NC
Posts: 277

I live by the river where the old gods still dream


« on: June 14, 2012, 10:47:13 AM »

As someone who prefers the RSV translation, I'm also interested in the modern "update" - the English Standard Version.  However, this version is particularly clouded by accusations of Protestant bias, which seems supported by its market share of overall sales.  Outside of the Evangelical camp, this version seems to be distrusted even though certain others have amply demonstrated its accurate, literal and cohesive translation philosophy.  The accusations of Protestant bias, then, seem rather unsupported.  Are such accusations being made not because of any actual bias but due to the resulting translation philosophy not favoring a particular ideological/religious position?  Or is it merely due to wanting to place distance between Evangelicals and non-Evangelicals as a way of keeping our identities distinct?  Or is it something else? 

I've researched some of the many "which English Bible translation do you prefer" threads both here and on several of Orthodox and even Roman Catholic forums.  While my search has been less than scientific and no statistics can be provided, based on the "eye-ball test" alone, it's easy to see that this version still has not yet received widespread acceptance among these two groups.  This, in part, seems to be the result of groupthink.  Among Orthodox, the KJV or NKJV translations receive the most usage and acclaim while, among RCs, it's the Douay-Rheims and RSV-CE.  Clearly, translation philosophy is not the sole determinant.  Orthodox rely on the KJV due to the translators' reliance upon Byzantine texts and the NKJV due to not only it being a revision of the KJV but also because it has been incorporated into the OSB.  Roman Catholics seems to prefer the Douay-Rheims due to it being a translation of the Vulgate and the RSV-CE due to it being the translation of choice for English translations of the Catechism and Pope Benedict XVI's writings.

Can the modern objections to the ESV, then, be sustained?  Is there truly any basis to our resistance against this version as an Evangelical corruption?
Logged

Tasting is Believing
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,939


"My god is greater."


« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 10:50:35 AM »

It uses the RSV's stupid "steadfast love," so I just pass it over automatically.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 10:57:44 AM »

^ NBD

http://www.amazon.com/English-Standard-Version-Bible-Apocrypha/dp/0195289102

It's really good. Now if Oxford could integrate the Apocrypha at the end of the OT or follow the Orthodox sequencing of OT books, it would be my goto.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 11:07:10 AM »

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Do you really think the average person is making their choice of translation based on what manuscripts it uses? And while translation philosophy may come to play, it only happens in a round about way. With the KJV, for example... people like it because they grew up with it, or because most of the biblical phrases that have made their way into western culture are from it, or because they think it sounds more reverent, or it's the first one they learned, or they associate it with stability or tradition or being rooted in history. Ask most people what Textus Receptus is and they'd just as likely guess that it's the name of a dinosaur; Nestle-Aland, on the other hand, is obviously the person who started that food company.
Logged
HouseOfGod
Passionate Orthodox teenager
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 203



« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 11:39:11 AM »

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Do you really think the average person is making their choice of translation based on what manuscripts it uses? And while translation philosophy may come to play, it only happens in a round about way. With the KJV, for example... people like it because they grew up with it, or because most of the biblical phrases that have made their way into western culture are from it, or because they think it sounds more reverent, or it's the first one they learned, or they associate it with stability or tradition or being rooted in history. Ask most people what Textus Receptus is and they'd just as likely guess that it's the name of a dinosaur; Nestle-Aland, on the other hand, is obviously the person who started that food company.
Grin
Logged

Renewal during the first month of the new ecclesiastical calendar! Smiley
Big Chris
Formerly "mint"
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic Diocese of Charlotte, NC
Posts: 277

I live by the river where the old gods still dream


« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 11:47:31 AM »

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Do you really think the average person is making their choice of translation based on what manuscripts it uses?

If by average, though, you mean Ma and Pa in the pulpit who are looking to have the word of Jesus on the coffee table, then I more than agree.  In fact, that is the crux of the OP if you read closely enough.  While I mention translation philosophy as a factor for choosing/rejecting the ESV, evidence suggests that its popularity is due to a more sustained intra-ecclesial top-down sociological phenomenon - or "If it's good enough for Pastor Ron, it's good enough for me."

I consider myself average, though, and yes, translation philosophy matters a great deal to me as does the integrity of the manuscripts.  This is why I've always gravitated towards the RSV lineage.  Using a standard such as "average" is incredibly relative.

Quote
And while translation philosophy may come to play, it only happens in a round about way. With the KJV, for example... people like it because they grew up with it, or because most of the biblical phrases that have made their way into western culture are from it, or because they think it sounds more reverent, or it's the first one they learned, or they associate it with stability or tradition or being rooted in history. Ask most people what Textus Receptus is and they'd just as likely guess that it's the name of a dinosaur; Nestle-Aland, on the other hand, is obviously the person who started that food company.

No real argument there.  As I mentioned, groupthink is a major factor in choosing a translation.  Not to mention price.  When forced to pay the bills and answering a call for a personal relationship with Jesus, I'd gladly buy the $.50 ESV Outreach NT versus anything else.

We all have our reasons for choosing/rejecting a specific version of the Bible; however, the Orthodox and Roman Catholic rejection of the ESV remains fairly consistent.  Are these reasons tenable?  This is where an issue of translation philosophy matters.  Or are the reasons for similar personal/social/cultural reasons that you highlight above?
Logged

Tasting is Believing
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 12:35:49 PM »

I don't understand how one could adopt the RSV and yet reject the ESV.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Big Chris
Formerly "mint"
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic Diocese of Charlotte, NC
Posts: 277

I live by the river where the old gods still dream


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 01:00:28 PM »

I don't understand how one could adopt the RSV and yet reject the ESV.

Which sort of begs the question:  Should we Orthodox (and Catholics) be adopting the RSV?

Let's save that for another thread, though.
Logged

Tasting is Believing
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,562


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2012, 03:09:12 PM »

I had an ESV but many parts of it did seem influenced by Protestantism and liberal theologians. For example, Bishop being replaced with 'Overseer' or 'Elder', the Lord's Prayer saying '...from evil,' rather than from 'the Evil one' and I believe it cuts out the 'Thine is the kingdom and thy power and thy glory' part. Slave is also translated to 'servant'. These all seem like marks of a very liberal theologian in the Protestant camp. All in all, I still prefer my NRSV because the translation philosophy is literalism instead of being biased by someone (usually Protestant's) preliminary theological presuppositions.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 03:37:59 PM »

and I believe it cuts out the 'Thine is the kingdom and thy power and thy glory' part.
There are two versions of the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. The one in the Gospel According to Matthew ends with "Thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory forever. Amen." versus the one in the Gospel According to Luke ends with "But deliver us from the evil one."
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2012, 04:27:54 PM »

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Do you really think the average person is making their choice of translation based on what manuscripts it uses? And while translation philosophy may come to play, it only happens in a round about way. With the KJV, for example... people like it because they grew up with it, or because most of the biblical phrases that have made their way into western culture are from it, or because they think it sounds more reverent, or it's the first one they learned, or they associate it with stability or tradition or being rooted in history. Ask most people what Textus Receptus is and they'd just as likely guess that it's the name of a dinosaur; Nestle-Aland, on the other hand, is obviously the person who started that food company.

Speak for yourself. If it's not Alexandrinus-Sinaiticus, it's not Orthodox.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 04:28:53 PM »

I don't understand how one could adopt the RSV and yet reject the ESV.

Because the RSV is the Third Rome of English Bible translations. A fourth there simply cannot be.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 04:29:55 PM »

Speak for yourself. If it's not Alexandrinus-Sinaiticus, it's not Orthodox.

I was speaking for neither myself nor you.  police
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,965


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2012, 04:49:54 PM »

I had an ESV but many parts of it did seem influenced by Protestantism and liberal theologians. For example, Bishop being replaced with 'Overseer' or 'Elder', the Lord's Prayer saying '...from evil,' rather than from 'the Evil one' and I believe it cuts out the 'Thine is the kingdom and thy power and thy glory' part. Slave is also translated to 'servant'. These all seem like marks of a very liberal theologian in the Protestant camp. All in all, I still prefer my NRSV because the translation philosophy is literalism instead of being biased by someone (usually Protestant's) preliminary theological presuppositions.
I'm curious why the NRSV. IIRC, this is the one version of the Bible whose liturgical use is NOT permitted in the OCA, precisely because of its theologically liberal, often gender-neutral language.
Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,223



« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2012, 06:47:42 PM »

Translation philosophies, broken down for philistines and dummies like me:



Source
.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 06:48:24 PM by Agabus » Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,096



« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2012, 06:50:39 PM »

Translation philosophies, broken down for philistines and dummies like me:



Source
.
That is a very good map.  Thanks for posting it.  As all can see, there is a plethora of translations.  They are all translations, so use the one you are comfortable with and do not worry about what others use.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 06:51:09 PM by Gamliel » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.072 seconds with 43 queries.