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« on: June 12, 2012, 02:18:25 PM »

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Ive been reading on one of the forums and came across this post by someone who has done some research and wrote this:

"I am currently studying the philosophy of world religions at University at this present moment, and I would like to share that Jews have a list of descriptions of who and what a Messiah should be, and I have included on why Jesus is not a Messiah of Judaism, hence, considering Muhammed was alive AFTER Jesus, and also started a new religion himself...many listed may also apply to him as well.

Rabbi, please correct me anywhere, if I am incorrect.

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".


I believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the scriptures,what are your thoughts on the post above?
Also,we are waiting for the 2nd coming of the Messiah,does the Old Testament mention the 2nd coming?

Thank you for your answers, God bless in Jesus Christ.


Judaism itself picks and choses , and gets to the limitis of irationality just to dismiss Jesus.. There are two options with the Jews.. To want to be sincere with their religion or to hang on anything to disbelief in Him.They are the ones split between two opinions as Elijah said : If the Lord be God than follow Him, if Baal than follow Him..

1.Jews often want to forget that the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist.

The second Temple was still standing around Jesus' ministry and some 37 years after.Some say that the Temple of Ezekiel is a description of the Second Temple, or that it was conditional and some as the Kabbalists take it to be refering to the Church.. There is actually a Christian description that corresponds with that, the New Jerusalem in Revelation, that has similar descriptions.. The fathers themselves have interpreted most of the verses regathering of Israel to be refering to the Church whom is the New Israel.Israel means the one who sees the Lord.God's ruling in the World is the Christian Church.The Church is all over the world.The name of God is one, Jesus.. The no1 theist religion in the world is Christianity.. The verses in Zec also refer to the pagans coming to the knowledge of the true God.. And i`m not sure all prophecies fulfilled entirely with the first coming.. One former jewish hacham who became an Orthodox monk , Neofit Cavsocalvitiu said that the psalmist foretold the two comings , when he said "The Lord comes, comes to judge the world" .. He also had an interesting manner of interpreting in various cases Israel to refer to the (Orthodox) Church and Jacob to the Jews or the heterodox.. Jacob in hebrew also means "deceived" .. He speaks of two "Jacobs" one red and one deceived..

2.Jesus was born "at the appointed time" , at the exact time.That is why there is a curse in the Talmud for everyone who tries to interpret the prophecies of Daniel concerning the timing of Messiah, the Prince.Jesus did not rejected the Torah(Matt 5:17-19).He rejected some false traditions of the rabbis concerning the Torah.Here we have a philosophical principle to debate of Jesus vs the Torah.. Yet even Jewish rabbis have believed that the Torah of Moses will get superseded by the Torah of Messiah.. Genesis says concerning the law, untill the Comforter comes, on whom all people will gather.As I said even the Rabbis agree that some parts of the Torah of Moses were only appointed temporal.

Quote
Jewish Tradition on the temporary state of the Mitzvahs (commandments) of the Torah

"Ordinances of the Kings" that the King annointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments".—Risto Santala quoting RaMBaM

"The Torah will revert to its original state"-- Pesikhta Rabbati 89,6

"The Holy One -- may he be blessed -- will sit (in the Garden of Eden) and draw up a new Torah for Israel, which will be given to them by the Messiah."—Rabbi Yalqut Isaiah, Yalqut Isaiah 26, siman 296

"In the future the commandments will be annulled.”-- Nida 66b. ‘traditions of the Wise’

"At the end the Torah will be forgotten."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Mechilta, Masechet Piska, 2; cAD 170-200

“This is how it will be in the days of the Messiah; there will be no 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' commandments (zechut ve-hovâh)."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Shabbath 130a-b.

Klausner, in his book "The Messianic Idea in Israel", explains that, "The natural interpretation of this is that in the days of the Messiah, the Torah and the Commandments will lose their significance"—Risto Santala on Klausner

"The Torah which man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the teaching of the Messiah."—Midrash of Ecclesiates, Midrash Qoheleth 71,8.

" 'The LORD sets prisoners free'... What does this 'setting free of prisoners' mean? There are those who say that in the future the Holy One will make all unclean animals fit for eating."—Midrash Psalm 146:7, Midrash Tehilim 146,7.**This is similar to Jesus’ and St Paul’s saying on freeing the prisoners

All sacrifices, except thankofferings*, will be abolished in future; and even should prayer be abolished, that portion thereof which comes under Praises will not be abolished.—Levit. Rabba 9. *The thanksoffering, or todah, is the Eucharist which means thanksgiving, as it is written Christ “gave thanks” and said “offer this memorial sacrifice”

“Thus our Sages have stated: Even if all the festivals become obsolete, Purim will remain. In the Messianic Era, the joy and tranquility of the festivals will be a daily experience. Their light will be like that of a candle in the light of day. Yet even in that spiritually advanced climate, the loftiness of Purim will still be something to celebrate.”—Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, On Esther 9:28

3.Alma means young girl, indeed.. the word also means , the Concealed One.. If you ask me the almah itself is a more deep stuff because it shows more the nature of Mary and who she was and points and alludes to the promise made to the serpent.. Actually the fathers call the birth of Mary as one of the Concealed Mysteries.Mary was a pregnant bethroted and married woman.. This status of her concealed who she was, and the fathers say that Mary and the birth of Jesus were concealed to the devil because of this.

4.It was said that the kingdom will be taken away from Israel, and the Bible speaks of the remnant of Israel.. There were Jews who believed , like St. Anna, St. Simeon , Nicodemous, Joseph of Arimathea , the thousands of Jews who believed in Acts.This were the first-fruits of the remnant of the Jews.. Jesus was foretold by St.John the Baptist .. The ministry of St. John and the ministry of Jesus, the ministry of the Apostles and the ministry of the Church was first to Israel..


The Jews will use any manner of interpretation except the ones used in Christianity.. They don`t know that the veil is removed in Christ.. The Torah can only be fruitfull in the light of Christ.. The end of the Torah is Christ as Paul said.. The chastising of God to the Jews for breaking the Torah is mostly because of Jesus and his teachings, which are the teachings of God and true.. As it is written in the Torah (Deut 18:18).. The true and ultimate morality and the revealed morality is that of Jesus.And as one of the father said, Moses himself said "They are wrong" foreseing this..




Well I would like to see this Torah that Jesus wrote by his own hand. * Hands hammer * you can try this to make that square peg fit in that circle hole. Look the fact is your going to think whatever you want as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Your whole faith is based on a false teaching that Jesus himself never said or did most of your teaching comes from a man who never met this Jesus in his life time. Paul or Saul is not someone who I would hang my hat on for the end all be all. You can talk to me till your blue in the face and I'll say this over and over again Echad , Echad, Echad. Which ends your whole debate as you worship 3 gods. I'll take my chances on the Echad (One) G-d that gave me life and who is my only Salvation and Protector of my soul. Now if you want to think that G-d needs a partner to help him and he's not able to do this on his own well then there's not much else anyone can say to you.

 You have been warned at least 3 times not to undermine the Orthodox Christian faith in the inproper sections. I hope 40 days of moderation will finally teach that lesson to you - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 02:26:03 PM »

Quote
The Name of Jesus Revealed in the Old Testament
"Yeshua Is My Name"



In my latest book, The Signature of God, I reported on one of the most astonishing and important biblical discoveries in history. God has hidden the name Yeshua - which is the Hebrew form of the name Jesus in numerous passages throughout the Old Testament. Especially within the great Messianic prophetic passages the Lord has hidden at equally spaced intervals in the Hebrew text the incredible message that "Yeshua is My Name." This is one of the most astonishing and tremendous biblical discoveries in the last two thousand years.

The phenomenon of Hebrew codes hidden within the text of the Torah gives us one of the strongest possible proofs that the Bible was truly inspired by God. My friend Yacov Rambsel, a Jewish Messianic pastor in San Antonio, Texas, made a series of extraordinary discoveries through a detailed analysis of the Hebrew Scriptures by individually counting the equally spaced intervals between the letters. Incredibly, Yacov found the original Hebrew name of Jesus, Yeshua - encoded in the very first verse Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Starting with the fifth letter, Yod - , in the first word in the Bible, B'raisheet "In the beginning" the name of Jesus - Yeshua - is spelled out by counting forward every 521st letter. The letters spell out the words "Yeshua Yakhol" which translates as "Jesus is able."

Ten years ago Israeli scientists at Hebrew University discovered an incredible phenomenon of Hebrew Codes in the authorized Masoretic Text of the Old Testament. They asked their computer program to analyse every possible combination of letters within the Hebrew text of the Bible. They discovered that meaningful words such as Hitler, Holocaust and Eichmann were spelled out in the text of Deuteronomy 10:17-22 at an interval of every 22 letters. They call the phenomenon "Equidistant Letter Sequences" and have written numerous scholarly articles about their discoveries in mathematical and academic journals worldwide. In other words, when the computer found the first letter of the word Hitler - , the letter heh , it skipped forward every 22 letters and found the letters of the Hebrew word Hitler- spelled out in the text. However, they also found in the same passage these words: Eichmann, King of the Nazis, Berlin, Germany, Holocaust, Cremetoria, Fuehrer and the death camp Auschwitz. These discoveries and hundreds of others are detailed in my book The Signature of God. The presence of these complex coded words in the Hebrew text of the Bible written thousands of years ago is one of the strongest hard science proofs we could ever hope for proving beyond question that a supernatural intelligence inspired the writers of the Scriptures. These discoveries are causing many agnostics to reconsider their position against the supernatural origin of the Bible. However, the greatest discovery for a Christian is that God has encoded the name of Yeshua - Jesus repeatedly throughout the Old Testament.

One of the most astonishing features is that virtually every one of the clearly Messianic passages of the Old Testament contains the name Yeshua - Jesus - encoded within the text at intervals such as every 2nd letter or every 20th letter, etc. As an example, Yacov found the name Yeshua embedded in the text of Isaiah 53:10 that prophesied about the atoning sacrifice that Christ made for our sins on the cross two thousand years ago. "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand" (Isaiah 53:10). Beginning with the second Hebrew letter yod in the Hebrew phrase "He shall prolong," "ya'arik Kyray," Yacov counted forward every 20th letter and discovered the phrase " - Yeshua - Shmi" which means "Yeshua [Jesus] is My Name" encoded in this verse about the suffering Messiah who died to atone for our sins. Mathematicians calculated the probability that this astonishing combination of letters spelling "Yeshua [Jesus] is My Name" would occur by random chance in Isaiah is only one chance in 50 quadrillion, an inconceivable number!

Genesis declared that the Lord provided "coats of skin" for Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness after they sinned: "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them" (Genesis 3:20,21). God killed the first animal as a sin sacrifice to provide their covering. This prophetic sign pointed to the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God to cover our sins. However, beginning with the last Hebrew letter heh in Genesis 3:20 and counting forward every ninth letter we find the word "Yoshiah" meaning "He will save." The word Yoshiah is a Hebrew variation of the name Yeshua (Jesus). The angel told the virgin Mary that "thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). Genesis 3:20,21 revealed another code showing the name Yeshua hidden in this passage. Beginning with the letter ayin in the phrase "coats of skin" and counting forward every seventh letter spells out another form of the word Yeshua - , which is spelt without using the letter vav .

A well known Messianic prophecy describes the exact price of Christ's betrayal, namely 30 pieces of silver. The prophet Zechariah gave this prediction five hundred years before the birth of Jesus: "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver" (Zechariah 11:12). Who is the one who is being betrayed? In the phrase "My price" se'kari beginning with the letter yod when we count forward every 24th letter we find the word Yeshua . The Lord obviously inspired the writers of the Old Testament to choose specific Hebrew words and precise spelling to create this phenomenon.

The Book of Leviticus reveals an astonishing hidden coded message about the blood of Jesus Christ being shed for our sins. In this passage Moses gave God's detailed instructions regarding the rules of the holy priesthood and the sacrifices for the sins of the chosen people. "And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes; Neither shall he go into any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother; Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I Am the Lord" (Leviticus 21:10-12). Beginning with the first heh in Leviticus 21:10 and counting forward every third letter, it spelled out the phrase hain dam Yeshua, which means "Behold! The blood of Yeshua." It is awesome to realize that God has secretly encoded these profound messages regarding His Son Jesus in these significant passages throughout the Old Testament.

One of the most startling of the Messianic codes was found within Psalm 41:7-10 which predicted the betrayal of Jesus by Judas Iscariot: "All My haters whisper together against Me; they plot evil against Me; saying, A thing of ruin is poured out on Him; and He Who lies down shall not rise again. Even My own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, who did eat of My bread, has lifted up his heel against Me. But Thou, O Lord, be merciful unto Me, and raise Me up, that I may repay them" (Psalm 41:7-10). Verse 8 contained the phrase "they plot evil," yach' shvu rah'ah. However, beginning with the letter yod , when we count forward every second letter we find the word - Yeshua.

The Book of Ruth contains a wonderful love story that reveals the ancestry of King David and Jesus of Nazareth. It is fascinating to note that the name Yeshua - is encoded in the very first verse, Ruth 1:1. Counting every fifth letter from right to left from the letter spells out the name of Yeshua - . The prophet Isaiah announced centuries before the birth of Christ that He would come as the great liberator to mankind. This prophecy of the Great Jubilee at the end of this age reminded Israel that their Messiah would finally cancel all their debts and proclaim liberty to all of those who were captives to sin. "The Spirit of the Lord God is on Me, because The Lord has anointed Me to preach the Good News to the meek. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and complete opening to the bound ones; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn" (Isaiah 61:1,2). Starting with the yod in the phrase, "The Spirit of the Lord God," "Ruach Adonai Yehovah," counting nine letters from left to right spells Yeshua.

Of the many incredible discoveries made by Yacov Rambsel, one of my favorites concerns Daniel's great prophecy of the Seventy Weeks found in Daniel 9:25-27. Verse 26 reads: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:26). Students of the Bible are familiar with the controversy over the last century about the correct identity of the "Messiah the Prince" referred to in the passage. Those who deny that the prophecy teaches about Jesus Christ's first coming have usually claimed that "Messiah the Prince" was Hezekiah or some other individual. However, the name Yeshua - \ is encoded within Daniel 9:26 starting with the letter yod in the phrase "the city," v'ha'iry, by counting left to right every 26th letter.

The significance of Yacov Rambsel's discovery is overwhelming. When added to the awesome research in Israel on the hidden codes of the Torah we can see the sovereign hand of God bringing about an incredible proclamation of His inspiration of the Word of God. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world, mostly Jews, have heard about these secret Torah codes. These people, who have reaffirmed their belief in God's inspiration of the Old Testament because of this phenomenon, will now learn that God has secretly encoded the actual name of His Son, the Messiah, Yeshua, within these Messianic texts.

This revelation of God's matchless wisdom and inspiration of the Scriptures in this decade as we approach the new millennium reminds me of the angel's prophecy to Daniel: "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. . . " (Daniel 12:4). The discovery of these astonishing codes revealing the name of God's Son Yeshua - , hidden within the text of the Bible for over three thousand years, is part of the fulfillment of this prophecy. Our knowledge of the Bible and its prophecies is increasing at a phenomenal rate in these exciting last days as we approach the time of the Messiah's return to set up His kingdom.

Over the course of my research on The Signature of God, Yacov Rambsel and I have had many conversations about the tremendous significance of his discovery of the Yeshua codes. There is much more exciting material in Yacov's book than I could cover in this chapter. As a result of these discussions, our ministry will be publishing Yacov's fascinating book Yeshua - The Name of Jesus Hidden in the Old Testament. If any reader is interested in studying this phenomenon and documentation in greater detail, they can order the book from any Christian bookstore or directly from our ministry, Frontier Research Publications, Inc. As Yacov wrote in his book, "Without a doubt, the Messiah's Name is Yeshua - , but in English, His Name is Jesus."

Quote
A controversy is raging in Israel, in evangelical circles in the U.S. and on kabbalah web forums worldwide following the posthumous release of what a revered Sephardic rabbi claimed to be the name of the Messiah.
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When Rabbi Yitzchak Kaduri died in February 2006, somewhere between the age of 106 to possibly 117, 300,000 attended his funeral in Jerusalem.

The Baghdad-born kabbalist had gained notoriety around the world for issuing apocalyptic warnings and for saying he personally met the long-awaited Jewish Messiah in November 2003.

Before Kaduri died, he reportedly wrote the name of the Messiah on a small note, requesting it remained sealed for one year after his death. The note revealed the name of the Messiah as “Yehoshua” or “Yeshua” – or the Hebrew name Jesus.


border=0>

However, complicating the story further, the note is being challenged as a forgery by his 80-year-old son Rabbi David Kaduri.

“It’s not his writing,” he is quoted as telling Israel Today.

The note, written in Hebrew and signed in the rabbi’s name, said: “Concerning the letter abbreviation of the Messiah’s name, He will lift the people and prove that his word and law are valid. This I have signed in the month of mercy.”

The Hebrew sentence consists of six words. The first letter of each of those words spells out the Hebrew name Yehoshua or Yeshua.

The finding has raised a combination of excitement and controversy in both Jewish and Christian circles – but scarcely any media attention. Jewish blogs and web forums are filled with skeptical analysis and puzzlement.

“So this means Rabbi Kaduri was a Christian?” asked one poster rhetorically.

Another wrote: “The Christians are dancing and celebrating.”

Not exactly.

In fact, many Christian discussion boards say Kaduri’s description of the Messiah – no matter what his name – doesn’t fit the biblical account of a returned Jesus of Nazareth, who, they believe, will rule and reign on Earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

About his encounter with the Messiah Kaduri claimed is alive in Israel today, he reportedly told close relatives: “He is not saying, ‘I am the Messiah, give me the leadership.’ Rather the nation is pushing him to lead them, after they find [in my words] signs showing that he has the status of Messiah.”

Kaduri was also quoted as saying the imminent arrival of the Messiah will “save Jerusalem from Islam and Christianity that wish to take Jerusalem from the Jewish Nation – but they will not succeed, and they will fight each other.”

Statements like that have some Christians wondering if Kaduri might be talking about another Yeshua – perhaps even a miracle-performing “false Christ” many evangelicals believe will precede the return of Jesus.

“It is hard for many good people in society to understand the person of the Messiah,” Kaduri wrote before his death. “The leadership and order of a Messiah of flesh and blood is hard to accept for many in the nation. As leader, the Messiah will not hold any office, but will be among the people and use the media to communicate. His reign will be pure and without personal or political desire. During his dominion, only righteousness and truth will reign.”

Kaduri wrote that not all will believe in the Messiah – and that it will often be easier for non-religious people to accept him. He also describes a Messiah who is, at first, not aware of his position.


border=0>
Kaduri’s funeral

A few months before his death, Kaduri gave a Yom Kippur address in which he gave clues as to how to recognize the Messiah. He told those gathered for the Day of Atonement in his synagogue the Messiah would not come until former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon dies.

Sharon was stricken while in office Jan. 4, 2006. He remained in a coma until replaced by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. While many expected the imminent passing of Sharon, he has remained alive but unconscious ever since his attack.

Shortly after what Kaduri characterized as his Nov. 4, 2003, encounter with the Messiah, in which he said he learned his name, the rabbi began warning of impending disasters worldwide.

In September 2005 in a class at his Jerusalem yeshiva seminary, Kaduri called for Jews all over the world to return to Israel because of the calamities about to befall the Earth and for the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple.

“In the future, the Holy One, Blessed be He, will bring about great disasters in the countries of the world to sweeten the judgments of the land of Israel,” he said.

In 1990, the late Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Schneerson told Kaduri that he would live to see the coming of the Messiah.

Also in September 2005, Kaduri said: “The Messiah is already in Israel. Whatever people are sure will not happen is liable to happen, and whatever we are certain will happen may disappoint us. But in the end, there will be peace throughout the world.”

As a lifelong student and teacher of kabbalah, Kaduri rejected a meeting requested by pop superstar Madonna, who dabbled in the ancient art of Jewish mysticism. He reportedly said at the time: “It is forbidden to teach a non-Jew kabbalah, not even Talmud, not even simple Torah.”

Kaduri is said to have been one of the few known living practitioners who used his knowledge of kabbalah to affect change in the world. He would often distribute amulets intended to heal, enhance fertility and bring success. He was also believed to have been involved in the removal of 20 dybbuks, or lost souls that strayed into the hapless bodies of living people to torment them.

Aviel Schneider, the author of the Israel Today story, said the worldwide reaction to news of Kaduri’s note has been “crazy.” He said he has never received so many emails and calls from around the globe.

He said he was urged not to publish the story by the rabbi’s yeshiva, where officials said it was “impossible” that the note was actually written by Kaduri.

But Schneider was given access to many of the rabbi’s manuscripts, written in his own hand for the exclusive use of his students. He was struck by symbols painted by Kaduri all over the pages.

“They were crosses,” said Schneider. “In the Jewish tradition, you don’t use crosses. You don’t even use plus signs because they might be mistaken for crosses. But there they were, painted in his own hand.”

Asked what those symbols meant, Kaduri’s family said they were “signs of the angel.” - http://www.wnd.com/2007/05/41669/
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 02:40:28 PM »

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Ive been reading on one of the forums and came across this post by someone who has done some research and wrote this:

"I am currently studying the philosophy of world religions at University at this present moment, and I would like to share that Jews have a list of descriptions of who and what a Messiah should be, and I have included on why Jesus is not a Messiah of Judaism, hence, considering Muhammed was alive AFTER Jesus, and also started a new religion himself...many listed may also apply to him as well.

Rabbi, please correct me anywhere, if I am incorrect.

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".


I believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the scriptures,what are your thoughts on the post above?
Also,we are waiting for the 2nd coming of the Messiah,does the Old Testament mention the 2nd coming?

Thank you for your answers, God bless in Jesus Christ.


Judaism itself picks and choses , and gets to the limitis of irationality just to dismiss Jesus.. There are two options with the Jews.. To want to be sincere with their religion or to hang on anything to disbelief in Him.They are the ones split between two opinions as Elijah said : If the Lord be God than follow Him, if Baal than follow Him..

1.Jews often want to forget that the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist.

The second Temple was still standing around Jesus' ministry and some 37 years after.Some say that the Temple of Ezekiel is a description of the Second Temple, or that it was conditional and some as the Kabbalists take it to be refering to the Church.. There is actually a Christian description that corresponds with that, the New Jerusalem in Revelation, that has similar descriptions.. The fathers themselves have interpreted most of the verses regathering of Israel to be refering to the Church whom is the New Israel.Israel means the one who sees the Lord.God's ruling in the World is the Christian Church.The Church is all over the world.The name of God is one, Jesus.. The no1 theist religion in the world is Christianity.. The verses in Zec also refer to the pagans coming to the knowledge of the true God.. And i`m not sure all prophecies fulfilled entirely with the first coming.. One former jewish hacham who became an Orthodox monk , Neofit Cavsocalvitiu said that the psalmist foretold the two comings , when he said "The Lord comes, comes to judge the world" .. He also had an interesting manner of interpreting in various cases Israel to refer to the (Orthodox) Church and Jacob to the Jews or the heterodox.. Jacob in hebrew also means "deceived" .. He speaks of two "Jacobs" one red and one deceived..

2.Jesus was born "at the appointed time" , at the exact time.That is why there is a curse in the Talmud for everyone who tries to interpret the prophecies of Daniel concerning the timing of Messiah, the Prince.Jesus did not rejected the Torah(Matt 5:17-19).He rejected some false traditions of the rabbis concerning the Torah.Here we have a philosophical principle to debate of Jesus vs the Torah.. Yet even Jewish rabbis have believed that the Torah of Moses will get superseded by the Torah of Messiah.. Genesis says concerning the law, untill the Comforter comes, on whom all people will gather.As I said even the Rabbis agree that some parts of the Torah of Moses were only appointed temporal.

Quote
Jewish Tradition on the temporary state of the Mitzvahs (commandments) of the Torah

"Ordinances of the Kings" that the King annointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments".—Risto Santala quoting RaMBaM

"The Torah will revert to its original state"-- Pesikhta Rabbati 89,6

"The Holy One -- may he be blessed -- will sit (in the Garden of Eden) and draw up a new Torah for Israel, which will be given to them by the Messiah."—Rabbi Yalqut Isaiah, Yalqut Isaiah 26, siman 296

"In the future the commandments will be annulled.”-- Nida 66b. ‘traditions of the Wise’

"At the end the Torah will be forgotten."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Mechilta, Masechet Piska, 2; cAD 170-200

“This is how it will be in the days of the Messiah; there will be no 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' commandments (zechut ve-hovâh)."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Shabbath 130a-b.

Klausner, in his book "The Messianic Idea in Israel", explains that, "The natural interpretation of this is that in the days of the Messiah, the Torah and the Commandments will lose their significance"—Risto Santala on Klausner

"The Torah which man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the teaching of the Messiah."—Midrash of Ecclesiates, Midrash Qoheleth 71,8.

" 'The LORD sets prisoners free'... What does this 'setting free of prisoners' mean? There are those who say that in the future the Holy One will make all unclean animals fit for eating."—Midrash Psalm 146:7, Midrash Tehilim 146,7.**This is similar to Jesus’ and St Paul’s saying on freeing the prisoners

All sacrifices, except thankofferings*, will be abolished in future; and even should prayer be abolished, that portion thereof which comes under Praises will not be abolished.—Levit. Rabba 9. *The thanksoffering, or todah, is the Eucharist which means thanksgiving, as it is written Christ “gave thanks” and said “offer this memorial sacrifice”

“Thus our Sages have stated: Even if all the festivals become obsolete, Purim will remain. In the Messianic Era, the joy and tranquility of the festivals will be a daily experience. Their light will be like that of a candle in the light of day. Yet even in that spiritually advanced climate, the loftiness of Purim will still be something to celebrate.”—Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, On Esther 9:28

3.Alma means young girl, indeed.. the word also means , the Concealed One.. If you ask me the almah itself is a more deep stuff because it shows more the nature of Mary and who she was and points and alludes to the promise made to the serpent.. Actually the fathers call the birth of Mary as one of the Concealed Mysteries.Mary was a pregnant bethroted and married woman.. This status of her concealed who she was, and the fathers say that Mary and the birth of Jesus were concealed to the devil because of this.

4.It was said that the kingdom will be taken away from Israel, and the Bible speaks of the remnant of Israel.. There were Jews who believed , like St. Anna, St. Simeon , Nicodemous, Joseph of Arimathea , the thousands of Jews who believed in Acts.This were the first-fruits of the remnant of the Jews.. Jesus was foretold by St.John the Baptist .. The ministry of St. John and the ministry of Jesus, the ministry of the Apostles and the ministry of the Church was first to Israel..


The Jews will use any manner of interpretation except the ones used in Christianity.. They don`t know that the veil is removed in Christ.. The Torah can only be fruitfull in the light of Christ.. The end of the Torah is Christ as Paul said.. The chastising of God to the Jews for breaking the Torah is mostly because of Jesus and his teachings, which are the teachings of God and true.. As it is written in the Torah (Deut 18:18).. The true and ultimate morality and the revealed morality is that of Jesus.And as one of the father said, Moses himself said "They are wrong" foreseing this..




Well I would like to see this Torah that Jesus wrote by his own hand. * Hands hammer * you can try this to make that square peg fit in that circle hole. Look the fact is your going to think whatever you want as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Your whole faith is based on a false teaching that Jesus himself never said or did most of your teaching comes from a man who never met this Jesus in his life time. Paul or Saul is not someone who I would hang my hat on for the end all be all. You can talk to me till your blue in the face and I'll say this over and over again Echad , Echad, Echad. Which ends your whole debate as you worship 3 gods. I'll take my chances on the Echad (One) G-d that gave me life and who is my only Salvation and Protector of my soul. Now if you want to think that G-d needs a partner to help him and he's not able to do this on his own well then there's not much else anyone can say to you.


Torah means teaching, law, instruction..

The Gospel includes "instruction" which is the literal meaning of the Hebrew word תּוֹרָה (torah), or so-called "Law."

The English word "Law" is used to translate the Hebrew word תּוֹרָה(torah) in the Hebrew Tanakh.[1] The word תּוֹרָהis derived from the root verb יָרָה(yarah), meaning "to teach."[2] Hence, another word derived from this verb root is מוֹרֶה (moreh), which means "teacher."[3]

The instructions of Christ and the Apostles in the Brit Chadashah constitute the "New Torah".

Not sure if you have been noticed but we are monotheists.The Trinity is monotheistic.The Jews themselves believe in the "Memra"(Word of god) and the "Ruach Hakodesh" (Holy Spirit , Spirit of God).Jesus himself restated the Shema as the biggest commandment(Mark 12:29) , he also said baptize all nations in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit(Matt 28)..

And the Shema says "shema yisroel adonai eloheinu adonai echad" , which shows that this echad is a Trinity
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 02:48:30 PM »

Please next time you want to try and school me on Hebrew please make sure you get your quick info off the internet from Jewish sites as your looking pretty how to say this in a nice way umm unlearned of which you are trying to school me in.  laugh
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 03:03:15 PM »

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".

In response to 1., 2., 4.:

Jewish notions of what the Messiah would embody were as inconsistent in 1st century Palestine as they are today.  Some Jews did not even believe a Messiah would come just as some faithful Jews do not believe in the prospect of a Messiah now.

Sources:
The Misunderstood Jew: The Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus, Amy-Jill Levine
The Jewish Annotated New Testament
Jesus and the Judaism of His Time, Irving Zeitlin
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 03:09:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Please next time you want to try and school me on Hebrew please make sure you get your quick info off the internet from Jewish sites as your looking pretty how to say this in a nice way umm unlearned of which you are trying to school me in.  laugh

About as silly as you trying to come to an Eastern Orthodox forum and one up us on Christian scriptural theology right Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »

Thank you for clarifying.

You said that the Church is the 3rd Temple that was built according to the prophesy, what are the other two Temples?
Thank you.

The first was built by Solomon. The second by Herod. Or at least that is the standard archaeological parlance.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 03:13:37 PM »

Out of curiousity, how do Jews even reconcile the strange, out-of-date laws in the Old Testament made to govern tribal people into today's day and age? I mean, yes those laws were indeed just at the time they were given, but in today's day and age, people seem more morally advanced than tribal people did thousands of years ago, therefore, an update of morality or a 'completion' would be needed. As Christians we believe that Jesus gave us that completion/update, whereas Jews as far as I know still live by an ethics system thousands of years old.
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 03:17:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Out of curiousity, how do Jews even reconcile the strange, out-of-date laws in the Old Testament made to govern tribal people into today's day and age? I mean, yes those laws were indeed just at the time they were given, but in today's day and age, people seem more morally advanced that tribal people did thousands of years ago, therefore, an update of morality or a 'completion' would be needed. As Christians we believe that Jesus gave us that completion/update, whereas Jews as far as I know still live by an ethics system thousands of years old.

Only the Taliban and el Shabab have been able to successfully merge this gap by using GPS and computer age technology to organize, promote, and choreograph stone-age "justice" like vendetta killings and stonings over adultery, all of which is of course literally and legally prescribed in the Jewish Scriptures, which makes me wonder why the Ultra Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are not as we speak executing more lustful teenagers than even in the dreams of the most ardent backwards radical Islamic fundamentalist Wink

In other words, the Jews HAVEN'T successfully merged the Old Testament requirements into the 21st century because simply stated, they can't be reconciled.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 03:19:35 PM »

Out of curiousity, how do Jews even reconcile the strange, out-of-date laws in the Old Testament made to govern tribal people into today's day and age? I mean, yes those laws were indeed just at the time they were given, but in today's day and age, people seem more morally advanced than tribal people did thousands of years ago, therefore, an update of morality or a 'completion' would be needed. As Christians we believe that Jesus gave us that completion/update, whereas Jews as far as I know still live by an ethics system thousands of years old.

Mishnah, Talmud, Midrash and then modern forms of jurisprudence.
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 03:32:22 PM »

Well I would like to see this Torah that Jesus wrote by his own hand. * Hands hammer * you can try this to make that square peg fit in that circle hole. Look the fact is your going to think whatever you want as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Your whole faith is based on a false teaching that Jesus himself never said or did most of your teaching comes from a man who never met this Jesus in his life time.

Paul was not dead when he met Jesus on the way to Damascus. Thus, he met Jesus in his lifetime.  Grin

Paul or Saul is not someone who I would hang my hat on for the end all be all.
I can undestand that Paul's conversion still hurts the Jews. You lost him! Probably nothing would be worse for a Jew than seeing that Christ's teaching were preached to the Gentiles by Paul, an ardent Pharisee whose primary plan was to eradicate the Church. How great is the trauma caused by Paul's conversion and his subsequent contribution to the proclamation of the Gospel!

You can talk to me till your blue in the face and I'll say this over and over again Echad , Echad, Echad. Which ends your whole debate as you worship 3 gods. I'll take my chances on the Echad (One) G-d that gave me life and who is my only Salvation and Protector of my soul. Now if you want to think that G-d needs a partner to help him and he's not able to do this on his own well then there's not much else anyone can say to you.


It seems that you spent the night reading the Qur'an and memorizing the basic anti-Christian Islamic arguments.  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 03:36:08 PM »

I don't post much but I just had to say something to Jewish voice. If you think Christians are tri-theist. You're ignorant and need to read more on Christianity.
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 03:45:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Your whole faith is based on a false teaching that Jesus himself never said or did most of your teaching comes from a man who never met this Jesus in his life time.

To Jewish Voice, you do realize that Christianity focuses on an entirely different ontology then Judaism or Islam or other legalistic, by the book religions? We are not necessarily organized around our interpretations of texts, books, or sacred writings, rather like Apostle Paul, from a direct and tangible relationship and experience of Jesus Christ.  We do not read about Jesus Christ in a book, and then imagine Him in our minds.  We know Him in our hearts, and then later come to read about Him in books.  Further, God is not contained in books, He is the Ever-Living, and surely then as a real entity God is able to speak for Himself, not through books, but directly to the heart of man.  Christ speaks to us in our hearts first, and in the books second.  We do not then consult the books first, but God in prayer.  Paul didn't discover Jesus as an obscure vision from reading the Scriptures, instead He met Jesus Christ directly on the road that day to Damascus.  This is why Jesus Himself told us, "You search the scriptures intending to find eternal life, and you would, if only you came to Me."

God is not in the Bible, He is real.  Seek Him first, then get caught up in the reading.  Until you understand that our relationship with Christ is one based upon revelation, you will never understand who we are, or where we are coming from, our why our faith doesn't make any sense to Jews and Muslims alike.  Keep reading the Book, maybe one day God will knock you off your high horse like He did Saul err Paul Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Your whole faith is based on a false teaching that Jesus himself never said or did most of your teaching comes from a man who never met this Jesus in his life time.

To Jewish Voice, you do realize that Christianity focuses on an entirely different ontology then Judaism or Islam or other legalistic, by the book religions? We are not necessarily organized around our interpretations of texts, books, or sacred writings, rather like Apostle Paul, from a direct and tangible relationship and experience of Jesus Christ.  We do not read about Jesus Christ in a book, and then imagine Him in our minds.  We know Him in our hearts, and then later come to read about Him in books.  Further, God is not contained in books, He is the Ever-Living, and surely then as a real entity God is able to speak for Himself, not through books, but directly to the heart of man.  Christ speaks to us in our hearts first, and in the books second.  We do not then consult the books first, but God in prayer.  Paul didn't discover Jesus as an obscure vision from reading the Scriptures, instead He met Jesus Christ directly on the road that day to Damascus.  This is why Jesus Himself told us, "You search the scriptures intending to find eternal life, and you would, if only you came to Me."

God is not in the Bible, He is real.  Seek Him first, then get caught up in the reading.  Until you understand that our relationship with Christ is one based upon revelation, you will never understand who we are, or where we are coming from, our why our faith doesn't make any sense to Jews and Muslims alike.  Keep reading the Book, maybe one day God will knock you off your high horse like He did Saul err Paul Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:58 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 06:37:39 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

I'll tell you when you tell me why there are so many variations of the Jewish faith all claiming to be the correct one; the Conservatives, Orthodox, Reformed and all of the offshoots in between :-) Or why so many of you do not even agree on such a big question as to whether a Messiah will come or not. If you want to attack Christianity for the diversity, then you are a hypocrite because one just needs to look at Judaism in its current state.

Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Debatable....
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 06:41:36 PM »



Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Debatable....


I'm all ears  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 06:43:55 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »



Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Debatable....


I'm all ears  Grin

In short, determinism. The Jesus/God of Reformed theology is deterministic. A deterministic God is a monster.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 06:49:03 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Wrong. The Arians were heretics, not Orthodox. And the Orthodox have always been Trinitarian. In the Gospel, it says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please read before you embarrass yourself.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 06:50:37 PM »

Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Orthodoxy has always been Trinitarian. Arianism was a heresy. While it may have been a pretty popular heresy, it was still heresy nonetheless, and many important figures in the Church stood up against it even at the threat of death, like St. Athanasius.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 06:51:42 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

I'll tell you when you tell me why there are so many variations of the Jewish faith all claiming to be the correct one; the Conservatives, Orthodox, Reformed and all of the offshoots in between :-) Or why so many of you do not even agree on such a big question as to whether a Messiah will come or not. If you want to attack Christianity for the diversity, then you are a hypocrite because one just needs to look at Judaism in its current state.
 James that's easy first we don't have dogma such as Christians do and set up for there governing bodies. If you study Judaism you will see that are faith doesn't hinge on the Messiah at all. Judaism hinges on obeying G-d to the best we can and to help change our world that is around us. We have our Salvation in our works and willingness to obey G-d
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 07:04:56 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Wrong. The Arians were heretics, not Orthodox. And the Orthodox have always been Trinitarian. In the Gospel, it says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please read before you embarrass yourself.
Is that so  St. Jerome quipped that he "woke up to discover that the whole world was Arian."  At onetime Arianism ruled the Trinitarians view point.
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 08:40:38 PM »

Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently.

Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".
And, based on this proposed chronological criteria used for exclusion (where does it come from), there can never be in the future.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 11:46:24 PM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Wrong. The Arians were heretics, not Orthodox. And the Orthodox have always been Trinitarian. In the Gospel, it says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please read before you embarrass yourself.
Is that so  St. Jerome quipped that he "woke up to discover that the whole world was Arian."  At onetime Arianism ruled the Trinitarians view point.

St. Jerome lived 3 centuries after the Trinitarian verse cited for you was written and a generation after the assembled bishops at Nicea had declared Arianism an unacceptable innovation--and cut them off from the Orthodox Church. Not to mention that the quote itself has St. Jerome saying that the Church was Trinitarian, then in a short amount of time 'the whole world' (an obvious exaggeration) had *changed*/become Arian.

There is no debate about the fact that at various times variant (heretical) beliefs arose and even possessed great popularity. None of which has anything to do with either of the topics on this thread--whether Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies and the ancillary question of whether the Septuagint or the Masoretic text is a more reliable guide to what those prophecies were.

(I'd also point out that this thread is in the Faith Issues forum not the free-for-all or one of the other forms designated for debate between Orthodox and non-Orthodox.)
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 12:41:53 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Please next time you want to try and school me on Hebrew please make sure you get your quick info off the internet from Jewish sites as your looking pretty how to say this in a nice way umm unlearned of which you are trying to school me in.  laugh

About as silly as you trying to come to an Eastern Orthodox forum and one up us on Christian scriptural theology right Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 01:08:53 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Again..

Quote
About as silly as you trying to come to an Eastern Orthodox forum and one up us on Christian scriptural theology right Wink




Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?

Word, because we all know Judaism is so tightly and universally organized as one unit Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 02:10:08 AM »

That sounds really nice if only that was true. Please tell me why then each Christian group has a different Jesus for. Truly you would have to admit that the only things Christians seam to agree on is all made up fairy tails ex Santa and the Easter Bunny the rest you can throw out the door cause you can't agree on which Jesus is true. tell me is it the Jesus of the Orthodox or of Rome maybe it's the Jesus of the JW's  Huh

You are exaggerating things. Jesus is one and same, but it is people who differ and misinterpret the Gospels. Besides, there is no Christological disagreement between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Even the Reformed Churches do not preach a different Jesus!

Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?
I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Wrong. The Arians were heretics, not Orthodox. And the Orthodox have always been Trinitarian. In the Gospel, it says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please read before you embarrass yourself.
Is that so  St. Jerome quipped that he "woke up to discover that the whole world was Arian."  At onetime Arianism ruled the Trinitarians view point.

St. Jerome lived 3 centuries after the Trinitarian verse cited for you was written and a generation after the assembled bishops at Nicea had declared Arianism an unacceptable innovation--and cut them off from the Orthodox Church. Not to mention that the quote itself has St. Jerome saying that the Church was Trinitarian, then in a short amount of time 'the whole world' (an obvious exaggeration) had *changed*/become Arian.

There is no debate about the fact that at various times variant (heretical) beliefs arose and even possessed great popularity. None of which has anything to do with either of the topics on this thread--whether Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies and the ancillary question of whether the Septuagint or the Masoretic text is a more reliable guide to what those prophecies were.

(I'd also point out that this thread is in the Faith Issues forum not the free-for-all or one of the other forms designated for debate between Orthodox and non-Orthodox.)
You right Witega I shouldn't have used St. Jerome to further the point home. Instead I should of made it more clear that your Hierarchy tells one side of Church history while your Saints tell another example of Constantine and his mother and sister being baptized as Arians and we all know that the Emperor sets the tone for the State Church.

Your also right that the topic is going over the op subject but it all leads back around in a circle when you bring up the Septuagint and Hebrew texts as you get both sides throwing out who had the chance to change the text but I will also add that the only part of the Septuagint that the 70 Jews wrote into Greek was the first 5 books know as Torah that was it. The rest of the books of the Septuagint was added by the Church which then lies in to who really could of change the text to fit there story.

The point of Arianism fits in very well as if it really was the true " Orthodox " and later became Trinitarian  then we can clearly see who was playing with the texts and had a real motive to do so.

See Witega is all one big circle  Smiley

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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 02:20:34 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

Again..

Quote
About as silly as you trying to come to an Eastern Orthodox forum and one up us on Christian scriptural theology right Wink




Would you believe Jesus' teachings and recognize him as the Messiah if Christianity had no denominations and all Christians were the members of the one and same Church?

Word, because we all know Judaism is so tightly and universally organized as one unit Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
About as silly as you trying to steal my history and make it your own and then try an call yourself an Orthodox Christian and still playing with that fake whim of yours and the whole h.i.m Messiah/ want to be Israel deal you run on these forms right.

Who is really the silly one now?
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 03:47:42 AM »

The best post here was by Azul, when he said "the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist."  The Orthodox Church looks upon so much of the Old Testament in an allegorical manner.  The events of Genesis, the book of Joshua, etc. are all seen as foreshadowing Christ.   We do not look to the text as it is, but only in the light of our understanding of the person of Jesus Christ do we make sense of it. 

Jewish Voice has made the Jewish perspective clear enough.  Yet, this is an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum -- and it seemed the OP was asking for an Orthodox Christian viewpoint.  This is the "Faith Issues" section of the forum, and not the Free for All, or Private threads. So let's be adults, and show respect to the guidelines of the forum -- we can easily move the debate elsewhere. 
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2012, 06:00:23 AM »

I don't think I'm exaggerating things. Are you forgetting that at one time Orthodoxy was Arian and then later became Trinitarian. that's 2 different Jesus right there is it not?

This is another exaggeration.  Grin Actually, Arius formed his heresy by denying the traditional teachings of the Church. Thus, he himself was a follower of the Trinitarian doctrine, but then deviated from it. Arianism was based on Arius' teachings, who did not exist in the first century A.D.  laugh

Claiming that Orthodoxy was Arian is similar to saying that Judaism was pagan (the Israelites worshipped the golden calf when Aaron was present!) before it became monotheistic.
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 01:13:34 PM »

The best post here was by Azul, when he said "the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist."  The Orthodox Church looks upon so much of the Old Testament in an allegorical manner.  The events of Genesis, the book of Joshua, etc. are all seen as foreshadowing Christ.   We do not look to the text as it is, but only in the light of our understanding of the person of Jesus Christ do we make sense of it. 

Jewish Voice has made the Jewish perspective clear enough.  Yet, this is an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum -- and it seemed the OP was asking for an Orthodox Christian viewpoint.  This is the "Faith Issues" section of the forum, and not the Free for All, or Private threads. So let's be adults, and show respect to the guidelines of the forum -- we can easily move the debate elsewhere. 

Not just ours, but the one of the Jews also.. Jews have always looked up in the Scripture through a metaphorical eye and not strictly literal.
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 01:23:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
About as silly as you trying to steal my history and make it your own and then try an call yourself an Orthodox Christian and still playing with that fake whim of yours and the whole h.i.m Messiah/ want to be Israel deal you run on these forms right.

Who is really the silly one now?

You, because you're trolling yourself here as if you were a martyr to your cause.  We're are not hearing you, because you are being nonsensically dense.  You interjected a bit of substance to our debate regarding linguistic analysis, however, you yourself have contributed nothing but insulting garbage on this thread. Please, try to refrain from being insulting by using terms like "steal" and "fake whim" because you need to remember where you are.  We are not on a Jewish forum, this is a Christian forum. Perhaps you are out of place?

back to the OP.

I was coincidently watching a new journal interview with Paula Fredriksen, a pseudo-Biblical scholar who was precisely arguing about the alma and parthenogenesis,  issue regardings Hebrew scriptures and the Septuagint. She followed the  popular Jewish narrative about conflict of the Hebrew scriptures and the Septuagint, however She revealed her own ignorance.  She is a supposed Oxford trained Biblical scholar, well-versed in the Fathers and yet she follows the line of reasoning that the contemporary Hebrew Scriptures are more authentic than the Septuagint even when history demonstrates otherwise.  Simply put, academia is a joke.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 08:21:30 AM »

Thank you for clarifying.

You said that the Church is the 3rd Temple that was built according to the prophesy, what are the other two Temples?
Thank you.

The first was built by Solomon. The second by Herod. Or at least that is the standard archaeological parlance.

Thank you for clarifying Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 04:34:52 PM »

The best post here was by Azul, when he said "the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist."  The Orthodox Church looks upon so much of the Old Testament in an allegorical manner.  The events of Genesis, the book of Joshua, etc. are all seen as foreshadowing Christ.   We do not look to the text as it is, but only in the light of our understanding of the person of Jesus Christ do we make sense of it. 

Jewish Voice has made the Jewish perspective clear enough.  Yet, this is an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum -- and it seemed the OP was asking for an Orthodox Christian viewpoint.  This is the "Faith Issues" section of the forum, and not the Free for All, or Private threads. So let's be adults, and show respect to the guidelines of the forum -- we can easily move the debate elsewhere. 

I think Jewish Voice is secretly interested in Orthodox Christianity,why else would he be on here?This is the only reason he is on this Forum,otherwise it would be very ignorant of this person to even be on here when we are here to discuss the Orthodox religion, any issues etc not arguing who is right and who is wrong.

Deep inside Jewish Voice knows that it is time he turned to Christianity now. 
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« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 05:15:15 PM »

The fact that the earliest Christians were Trinitarians is indisputable. There are scores and scores of passages from early Church Fathers which confirm that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are distinct yet one Godhead. Further, the Emperor Constantine did NOT DICTATE what doctrinal statements were made at Nicea or adopted by the Church. It is written by Eusebius of Caesarea in his Church history that the Emperor bowed his head before the Bishops at the council out of respect, recognizing their superiority and authority and he remained silent on the issue. He may have convoked the council, but he did not determine anything relating to the faith. Further, many of the Bishops assembled at Nicea were scarred and mutilated from the tortures they had endured by the Pagans for the Christian faith just a few decades ago. Does it honestly make sense that they were willing to suffer for their faith, only to betray it later? I have heard claims similar to these all the time on the Internet and it is ridiculous how some people just get random stuff from "christianityisevil.com" or whatever instead of doing real historical research on the matter.

What did the early Fathers believe about the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the personality of the Holy Spirit?

http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm
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« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2012, 05:53:37 PM »

^I agree with almost all that you say here, except for--  wasn't it St. Constantine that suggested the term homoousios?
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« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 06:14:14 PM »

^I agree with almost all that you say here, except for--  wasn't it St. Constantine that suggested the term homoousios?
I thought that it was Saint Athanasius who pushed for the term and that he was later criticized for it due to its Gnostic origin and because it could have been misinterpreted in a Sabellian way. You would probably know more about that than I do. Even if Constantine was the one who suggested it, I don't think it would be problematic.

+Oh, and for all of you out there who do not know, Eusebius was said to be an Arian sympathizing Bishop, so the fact that he said what he did in his account really goes to show what actually happened at the council.
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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 06:24:42 PM »

^I agree with almost all that you say here, except for--  wasn't it St. Constantine that suggested the term homoousios?
I thought that it was Saint Athanasius who pushed for the term and that he later was criticized for it due to its Gnostic origin and because it could have been misinterpreted in a Sabellian way. You would probably know more about that than I do. Even if Constantine was the one who suggested it, I don't think it would be problematic.

+Oh, and for all of you out there who do not know, Eusebius was said to be an Arian sympathizing Bishop, so the fact that he said what he did in his account really goes to show what actually happened at the council.

I did a google search and, fittingly enough, the site you linked to in your other post also has something to say on this:

"Although Constantine did put forth the Nicene creed term 'homoousios' (of one substance), it is universally recognized that Ossius (a bishop and Constantine's spiritual adviser) was the one who told Constantine to suggest the term be in the creed."

This is gone over several more times with references on this page. I completely agree with you thought in that this is not an issue. The assembled clergy were not forced into accepting trinitarianism, but the orthodox ones already believed it as what was passed down.
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« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 06:31:11 PM »

^Thank you for sharing. It's interesting to know. I wonder what Jewish Voice has to say on the matter.
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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2012, 06:37:18 PM »

Fwiw there might indeed be a tradition that says that St. Athanasius suggested the word. Certainly what was important for them to remember and pass on was the creed, and who said which phrase at which time was merely peripheral.
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