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Author Topic: When Our Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, Owned and Traded Slaves  (Read 7503 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2012, 05:28:07 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
Ialmisry, from you I don't expect much. Perhaps a map.
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
Ialmisry, from you I don't expect much. Perhaps a map.

That was witty and original.
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
And in Romania they become Pentecostals and, I tell you this from personal interaction with a few priests, the clergy seems rather relieved they don't have to deal with the Gypsies anymore.
Having personal experience with their interaction with Church, I don't blame the clergy for their relief.
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2012, 05:32:07 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2012, 05:32:39 PM »

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. While people slept, his enemy came and also sowed weed grass among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprang up and brought forth fruit, the weeds also appeared. The slaves of the householder came forward and said to him, 'Lord, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where did this darnel come from?'

The man said to them, 'An enemy has does this.'

The slaves then asked him, 'Do you want us to go and gather them up?'

But the man replied, 'No, for fear that while you gather up the darnel weeds, you might also uproot the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will tell the reapers, 'First, gather up the darnel weeds, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." -Matthew 13

Antiquitas sine veritate vetustas erroris est; antiquity without truth is the old error.

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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2012, 05:34:26 PM »

It's sad and very wrong that the Church sells Gypsies. After all, Gypsies are property of the state. They belong in prison labor camps, working for the benefit of the state, not in private bourgeois homes or in monasteries. Slavery and monasticism don't mix. Monks who have slaves do not suffer, and monasticism is about suffering. Thank God Stalin brought people back to the true path.
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2012, 05:35:41 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

Liberalism.

Although, both -isms are impossible to define without endless argument, and all parties holding such philosophies would be of better service in prison labor camps.
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2012, 05:35:50 PM »

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy

Perhaps they got inspiration from some hadith brought by the muslim tartars.
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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2012, 05:36:54 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.
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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2012, 05:37:54 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2012, 05:38:48 PM »

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy

Perhaps they got inspiration from some hadith brought by the muslim tartars.

Sins may be forgiven, but crimes must be punished.
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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2012, 05:39:49 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
I believe he is referring to blind obsession with a supposed past "golden age" which is irreproachable and an eternal standard by which one must live today.

For Evangelicals this would be a blend of 19th century rural america or 1950's suburban america. The claim here is that many Orthodox converts view the medieval or generally "pre-modern era" Orthodox Church heirarchy and praxis in this way.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 05:41:13 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:13 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

Indeed. Stalin was so much more efficient and had a larger vision. He was also able to implement his vision without people getting angry enough to start a civil war.



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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:42 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  

The straw men are breeding like rabbit's 'round here.  
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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:57 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
I believe he is referring to blind obsession with a supposed past "golden age" which is irreproachable and an eternal standard by which one must live today.

In railing against one obsession, he has fallen into another himself.
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« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2012, 05:41:12 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

They are probably pretty similar, but we don't really have precise documentation for the former.  A better comparison would be the forced deportations of say Chechnians or Crimean Tatars.  Mortality rates were near 50%.  All attempts were made to destroy the religions, languages and customs of the deported.  Pretty much the same as trans-atlantic slave trading.    
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« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2012, 05:42:35 PM »


Sins may be forgiven, but crimes must be punished.
Yeah, like that woman caught in adultery.

'You betrayed the LAWWWWWWW"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glUf4PQ-vuU
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« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »

Btw, everyone in the US associates slavery with the "peculiar institution" of the antebellum South.  That doesn't cover all forms of slavery. In Egypt, for instance, and other muslim states, manumitted slaves ruled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilman#History

In Rome, a manumitted slave of a Roman became a Roman citizen.  Not exactly how slavery was practiced in the South, as Dread Scott showed.
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« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2012, 05:48:55 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  

The straw men are breeding like rabbit's 'round here.  

Not really.  It is a valid point.  When it is convenient for Christianity / the Orthodox Church morality is subjected to culture and time.  Other times it isn't.  If one is looking to Christianity for any sort of objective moral compass, it isn't there.  You have to look within in the Kierkegaard sense of it.  
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« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  
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« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:51 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?
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« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2012, 05:51:08 PM »

Btw, everyone in the US associates slavery with the "peculiar institution" of the antebellum South.  That doesn't cover all forms of slavery. In Egypt, for instance, and other muslim states, manumitted slaves ruled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilman#History

In Rome, a manumitted slave of a Roman became a Roman citizen.  Not exactly how slavery was practiced in the South, as Dread Scott showed.

Everything always goes down hill when the slaves are freed.
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« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2012, 05:53:26 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?

The ownership that involves a receipt and control pales in comparison to the ownership that involves love and sacrifice.
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« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »

Yeah the hierarchy only owned slaves in order to sacrifice themselves for those slaves. You'd think they were into bdsm
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« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.
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« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2012, 06:00:12 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes 

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and periphery of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2012, 06:00:44 PM »

I'm pretty sure there are many here that are perfectly fine with slavery, an a few, pious souls that long that they had the joy of being owned and trafficked by some Athonite dependency in the Wallachian plain.
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« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2012, 06:02:53 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and the far-flung periphery of Orthodoxy.
It wasn't ajust a group of monks, it was two, and at that time (Phanariote rule) the richest metropolitan sees of the Great Church of Christ plus the dependencies the Holy and God Protected Patriarchies of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem had there.
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« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2012, 06:03:08 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  
Don't you get it? We're supposed to hate Orthodoxy as much as our nominal friends do, just because someone (or someones) lived up to the ideals of our Faith in a less than perfect manner. I'll break it down:

Orthodox Christian(s) + sin= ZOMG!!1 Ur a bourgeois hippokrit! Orthodoxy iz false! Converts suck!!!11one

Hope that clears things up.

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« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2012, 06:07:35 PM »

When Cuza secularized the great estates of the "dependent" monasteries in 1864 he incurred many anathemas especially from Athos.
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« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 06:11:00 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.
What exactly happened 150 years ago?

Take for instance, Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemmings, in reality his wife.  When their relationship began, they were in Paris, where slavery was illegal.  In VA, however, no marriage between them would be recognized, and their family relations would have to be conducted through the terms of slavery. Their daughter Beverly, for instance "ran away" (the overseer paid for her transport up north).  Since a fugitive slave had to be reclaimed by his master, Jefferson not pursuing the matter let her free without any other slaveowner being able to claim her.
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« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2012, 06:12:53 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

James, step away from the keyboard for a moment and ask yourself, "Does the Church really still sanction slavery?".  When you realize the answer is NO, then you'll come to the understanding that it doesn't make damn difference if a few OC's might believe it's OK.  And when you realize that, then you'll come to the conclusion that you ain't gonna change their minds by ranting about it on an obscure online forum.  What's the point, really?  People will believe what they want and pounding away on a keyboard rarely, if ever, changes minds.  But, here's my prediction for this thread.  People will continue to choose to get riled up over nothing.  It'll go on for at least two more pages before the discussion no longer has anything to do with when the Moldovan church owned slaves.  It'll be split and end up in Politics.  Finally, absolutely no one will have changed their minds.  If that's your idea of making a difference, then proceed.  
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« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and the far-flung periphery of Orthodoxy.
It wasn't ajust a group of monks, it was two, and at that time (Phanariote rule) the richest metropolitan sees of the Great Church of Christ plus the dependencies the Holy and God Protected Patriarchies of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem had there.
That they profited off of it doesn't take it out of the periphery. Exploitation of the masses: you should know that, isn't it your usual shtick?
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« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2012, 06:19:13 PM »

 Romania did not get it's independence from the Ottoman Empire until 1877, and slavery was very common throughout the Ottoman Empire.  Poor people were forced to sell their children so the other children would have food to eat.  If it was true that Gypsy slaves were being sold at a monastery, it might have been as a favor to the parents during a time of famine and hardship.  Since the Gypsies were not Christians, there wouldn't be any qualms about the children being raised as Muslims.  Of course these children might have been kidnapped by the gypsies in order to be sold.  Anything is possible. 

Of course the Monastery might have been used by some Muslim slave dealers.  That possibility also exists.  What we shouldn't do though is look at the past with today's eyes and jump to conclusions.   I recall seeing Gypsies begging for money on the streets in Greece.  They were uneducated and had no profession so begging was the only way they could live.  Greece later passed a law  that Gypsy children had to attend school.

As for slavery in general, it  no doubt existed in the Byzantine Empire, and probably the Italian Renaissance as well.  We have to understand that the only difference between a slave and a servant at that time,  would have been that a slave could be sold and a servant was not.  Other than that, there would be no difference in their position since  the servant was not paid anything and only given some food to eat, a place to sleep and some clothes. 

As for the Ottoman Empire, it did not banish slavery until the nineteen twenties.  In the eighteen hundreds when the Muslim Circassians were thrown out of Russia, the slave markets of Istanbul were so packed with  beautiful Circassian women, (who were always preferred for the harems), that the Turks began throwing out  their black slaves.

Anyway here's something about white slavery from Wikipedea: 


Arabs also enslaved Europeans. According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary corsairs, who were vassals of the Ottoman Empire, and sold as slaves between the 16th and 19th centuries. These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages from Italy, Spain, Portugal and also from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland. The impact of these attacks was devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. Pirate raids discouraged settlement along the coast until the 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
   
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« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2012, 06:22:22 PM »

Maybe they were selling them as Indulgences. Where like you buy 2 and then set them free and that helps cover your sins for the toll houses  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2012, 06:30:42 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

In the biography of Saint Nektarios, he became so upset when he found out a peasant woman was being forced to sell one of her children so she could feed the other ones, and not have them die of starvation, that he managed to get the money to give her.  I'm writing this to show the desperation that existed in parts of the world at certain times so that we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on our very, very  limited experiences. Sad
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« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »

Maybe they were selling them as Indulgences. Where like you buy 2 and then set them free and that helps cover your sins for the toll houses  Grin

That's funny! laugh
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« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2012, 07:16:14 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2012, 07:17:03 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

Impending social collapse and Chinese hegemony?
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« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2012, 07:18:16 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
Further inquire into OCA. They need Evangelicals to help with the war efforts.
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2012, 07:20:50 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

Impending social collapse and Chinese hegemony?
No, the end of trading people like cattle.
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2012, 07:21:22 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
Further inquire into OCA. They need Evangelicals to help with the war efforts.

War efforts?
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2012, 07:22:29 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

I'd dispute that conservatism is an "ideology," but more substantively, have you heard of Communism or Nazism by any chance?
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2012, 07:33:12 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

I'd dispute that conservatism is an "ideology," but more substantively, have you heard of Communism or Nazism by any chance?
You're ripe for angliochianism.
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