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Author Topic: When Our Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, Owned and Traded Slaves  (Read 8305 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ebor
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« Reply #225 on: June 16, 2012, 09:31:18 PM »

I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.  

This is not correct.  There were plenty of cases where slaves were taught Christianity as well as learned to read and write.  Case in point General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson supported with money and work a Sunday School for both freedmen and slaves.  Here is a link to a letter from 1858 in the archives of Virginia Military Institute in which he describes how the school works:
 http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=9269
I would have to look for it, but some time ago I read of an letter that he sent home during the Civil War which rather then news of the conflict, which people thought he would write about, he was sending funds to continue the school.  

There were also numerous cases of slaves or former slaves who were literate and Christian. These include
Phillis Wheatley http://www.masshist.org/endofslavery/?queryID=57
and
Absolom Jones, born in slavery who taught himself to read, bought the freedom of his wife and himself and became the first Episcopal priest of African descent in the United States.  http://www.aecst.org/ajones.htm

Benjamin Banneker, who had never been a slave, was educated and an important figure.

It was after the suppressed revolt led by Denmark Vesey in 1822 and particularly the Nat Turner Revolt in 1831 that there were more laws passed to forbid literacy.  This was to prevent the slaves from reading abolitionist materials and to think of other ways of living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

What have you read that suggested that slaveholders did not try to teach Christianity to their slaves?  Do you recall any sources please?

Ebor

It was a text book of my granddaughters that was a compilation of letters from educated blacks.  There were exceptions of course, and I did read a biography about an exceptionally bright black slave in the Caribbean that managed to educate himself and bought his freedom.  I wish I could recall his name, but he had a successful business and spoke to Parlament against slavery.  He later became a minister and married in Britain.

If the title should come to you, would you please post it?  Was the person you're thinking of Olaudah Equiano?
http://abolition.e2bn.org/people_25.html

Quote
These books also changed my mind about slavery in the South, since I couldn't imagine Southerners being any different pre Civil War than the way they are now.

 Huh  not any different?  Why not?  Things have changed in the past 150 years or even in the past 50 years.  Not everything, but some.

Quote
I gathered from these books that a bright black slave could gain favors and even an education, something that the others who were made to work in the fields could not.  Also many of them were the illegitimate children or grandchildren of the slave owners, which was a step above what existed in the Muslim world.

Hardly a step up when they were still counted as slaves and were at times sold away from their mothers.  Their paternity did not count for special treatment. They were stock and property. Some slave-owners had in effect 'breeding programs' just as they would have for horses or cattle or other livestock.  Field hands didn't have the leisure to teach themselves to read but that doesn't  mean that they weren't intelligent and private religious meetings at night were known even if the preacher read only a little or not at all.    

Quote
As you know, there was a difference in the position of the slaves that worked in the fields and the brighter slaves that worked in the homes.  I'm sure the nannies that nursed and raised the children of the owners were well loved and I'm sure they were Christian. I was shocked though at some of the stories, such as the black children running around  naked even in cold weather.

It was not a question of intelligence but strength and endurance for many of the field-slaves. There were also slaves who were taught trades or skills which then earned the owner money. That was one way for some of them to earn enough to buy their freedom *if the owner accepted it*. Some, such as the widow of the man who owned Dred Scott, refused this.  
Denmark Vesey, mentioned above won a lottery and used the money to buy his freedom.  

The teaching of Christianity to slaves and taking them to church was fairly common.  The slaves were in the back or in balconies in many church buildings. I've been told that sometimes these areas had places to attach the chains to prevent escape.  

Quote
As for the blacks being looked upon as not being fully human, it was a sign of the times.  There is a book in the Smithsonian called:  Apes and Angels, with caricatures of the Irish who at the time were considered white apes.  These weren't only British caricatures.  Many were American.    :
 

I have heard of the book, though I have not had a chance to read it.  Not regarding others as fully Human is hardly limited to the antebellum South and can still be found.  The "Other" the "Not-like-me" is often a target.   Native Americans, people from other countries or cultures and those with deformities have also been treated miserably.  People who live in rural areas are sometimes discounted, or people in the inner cities.   Adult women were not considered as fully human as an adult male for example, as can be read in the Declaration of Sentiments from the Seneca Falls Convention of 1848
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/senecafalls.asp

Real history is complicated.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 09:32:24 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #226 on: June 17, 2012, 01:38:58 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Grossly insensitive, but I was trying to make a point.  The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past.  It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about.  This is just like how my ex used to bring up crap from months to years in the past to complain about.  If we are going to worry about slavery today, lets start another thread about moslems.
Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Isn't it interesting that when one talks of trying to understand the Roman Church and enter into dialogue with it in an effort to heal the Great Schism, all of sudden to some, history become the trump card which stops all such talk 'dead on the tracks' ----the Crusades, the Unia and so on....But when history runs into the perceived belief requirements of some of contemporary American political discourse, it isn't relevant and should be overlooked. Hmmmm..... I agree that for the most part the past is the past and judging people and institutions by the behaviors of actors long dead does lead to mostly a lot of whining.

Please reread what I wrote.  Actually, don't bother.  With the modern miracles of "cut and paste" I can just re-write it in seconds...

"It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about."

When was the last time the Church bought and sold slaves?  When was the last time a bishop or abbot brought up the subject of reinstituting slavery?

If the answer to these questions is >100 years ago...why are you worrying about it?  Sure, understand the past and what happened.  But also, please tell me how you intend to utilize this knowledge to deal with current issues.

As for Catholics vs Orthodox the situation really hasn't changed.  We are still separate Churches.  They have added lot's of extraneous bits.  Until they make some significant changes it really is worthless to think about reintegrating with them.  These issues are in the present.  They are yesterday, today, and unless something significant is happening in Italy as I type this, I'd hazard the bet that they will be here tomorrow morning as well.

As for Catholic vs Orthodox 'incidents', I can name one shooting war within the last 20 years that was sectarian in nature.

If you want to try and deal with current issues of slavery I think you will find that many Orthodox Christians will be in agreement with you...with a smaller vocal minority supporting the opposition, explaining it away, and accusing you of being overly judgmental for bringing it up.
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« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2012, 08:37:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Grossly insensitive, but I was trying to make a point.  The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past.  It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about.  This is just like how my ex used to bring up crap from months to years in the past to complain about.  If we are going to worry about slavery today, lets start another thread about moslems.
Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Isn't it interesting that when one talks of trying to understand the Roman Church and enter into dialogue with it in an effort to heal the Great Schism, all of sudden to some, history become the trump card which stops all such talk 'dead on the tracks' ----the Crusades, the Unia and so on....But when history runs into the perceived belief requirements of some of contemporary American political discourse, it isn't relevant and should be overlooked. Hmmmm..... I agree that for the most part the past is the past and judging people and institutions by the behaviors of actors long dead does lead to mostly a lot of whining.

"Proof-texting" history.   (And forgetting, er...ignoring Christ's message of forgiveness, redemption, etc.)
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« Reply #228 on: June 18, 2012, 01:17:08 PM »

Augustin, it appears at least one church is listening to your argument in favor of restoring the traditional catacomb practice of serf and slave ownership:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/06/18/bishops-buy-land/

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« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2012, 02:06:44 PM »

Augustin, it appears at least one church is listening to your argument in favor of restoring the traditional catacomb practice of serf and slave ownership:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/06/18/bishops-buy-land/

 police

And it appears that at least one Orthodox Christian has completely (or is is deliberately?) misunderstood Devin's words and intention.

(Btw, I know of at least one Orthodox priest who would have loved nothing more than to implement Devin's ideas in the real world.)
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« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2012, 03:55:37 PM »


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




 The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past. 

Finally, someone who gets it.
The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it. To ignore the cause-effect connections between events in the past and the present, is to completely misunderstand how our present world operates.  History is integral to the present moment, and we can't simply forget about the past because sometimes it makes us uncomfortable, if anything, it is these uncomfortable realities of history which make the largest waves and have the biggest impact on the present.  So, no, it is not irrelevant to discuss wrongs of the past by Christians, that is, unless, folks in the present honestly don't see what was wrong in the first place Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #231 on: June 18, 2012, 04:46:53 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss
 Warned for 30 days for gross disrespect of others. Second Chance
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« Reply #232 on: June 18, 2012, 04:49:44 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss

Whoaa.....what was all of *that*?
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« Reply #233 on: June 18, 2012, 05:07:13 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss

Whoaa.....what was all of *that*?
Because you have yet to understand me, why not let these things play out?  But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther. 
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« Reply #234 on: June 18, 2012, 05:26:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
 



 But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther.  
Really?





stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 05:37:40 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2012, 08:12:34 PM »


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




 The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past. 

Finally, someone who gets it.
The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it. To ignore the cause-effect connections between events in the past and the present, is to completely misunderstand how our present world operates.  History is integral to the present moment, and we can't simply forget about the past because sometimes it makes us uncomfortable, if anything, it is these uncomfortable realities of history which make the largest waves and have the biggest impact on the present.  So, no, it is not irrelevant to discuss wrongs of the past by Christians, that is, unless, folks in the present honestly don't see what was wrong in the first place Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

We should never forget the past because if we do we are bound to repeat it, but that said, we have to realize that the past is written by humans, and humans can only see things through their own cultural eyes, and experiences.  There are always two sides and both should really be looked at.  For example, in the past the Native Americans were always the 'bad' guys, while today it's more politically correct to see the Native Americans as being the good guys.  If this was not so, then what is the point of 'Christianity'  if it doesn't better ones soul?

One  person on a forum I was on, responded to comments about the sufferings of the American Indians by saying how his grandfather and a bunch of others went out and killed them all.  They just couldn't stand hearing the screams every night of someone as he was being skinned alive. .. And this reminds me of something else.  When I was young the teachers would always point out to us the evil caste system in India...which still exists even today since its part of the Hindu faith, also how the English stopped the practice of women throwing theselves onto their husbands funeral bier.    Yet today, we find it more politically correct to look at the English as being racist...especially in India.

As a Christian I believe that when people are in God's Grace, the 'love' within their hearts will emanate throughout and touch everyone and everything.  By the same token, when people are away from God, the evil and hatred inside of them will also emanate throughout and not only destroy others, but will eventually bring about their own destruction.  I find this  especially true with 'heathens'...and by that I also mean those Christians that delve in the occult.   Sad
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« Reply #236 on: June 19, 2012, 03:05:25 PM »

Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Pretty much.  Most of the evil in the world comes from someone whining so much about the past that someone in the present gets sick and tired of it and gives him something to really whine about.
How about that?! Shocked For once you and I agree on something. Grin

I bet there are a lot of us who agree on this one.  kudos to punch
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« Reply #237 on: June 19, 2012, 04:29:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Blessed Juneteenth to y'all! These kinds of holidays are not exclusively "black" holidays, all of Americans works towards emancipation, just as all Americans worked towards Civil Rights (well that is, except for those bad apples that insisted on working in the opposite direction Wink )

One of the problem with slavery and Jim Crow in American history is we have wrongly correlated these as black events, but whites folks, all folks were involved at all ends.  Americans worked together, regardless of colorlines, in fact blatantly in disregard to them, to achieve a better equality in our society.  When we lived where human beings were treated with less regard than animals, it took a majority of the country to step up.  I can only pray that in the future, people will be so kindly inclined to work together for a greater good as we have in the past, rather then quarrelling and bickering over who is and who isn't culpible for the wrongs of the past.  The reality is we all are collectively wrong, which is why we all equally owe the same obligations towards making things right.

Today however, we celebrate the victories, we celebrate the heroes, we celebrate life!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 04:31:22 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #238 on: June 19, 2012, 04:42:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Blessed Juneteenth to y'all! These kinds of holidays are not exclusively "black" holidays, all of Americans works towards emancipation, just as all Americans worked towards Civil Rights (well that is, except for those bad apples that insisted on working in the opposite direction Wink )

One of the problem with slavery and Jim Crow in American history is we have wrongly correlated these as black events, but whites folks, all folks were involved at all ends.  Americans worked together, regardless of colorlines, in fact blatantly in disregard to them, to achieve a better equality in our society.  When we lived where human beings were treated with less regard than animals, it took a majority of the country to step up.  I can only pray that in the future, people will be so kindly inclined to work together for a greater good as we have in the past, rather then quarrelling and bickering over who is and who isn't culpible for the wrongs of the past. The reality is we all are collectively wrong, which is why we all equally owe the same obligations towards making things right.

Today however, we celebrate the victories, we celebrate the heroes, we celebrate life!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

LOL. (Checks forum, not private, oh well . . .)

Not a "black" holiday? I just mentioned Juneteenth to a buncha white Americans and Latin Americans last week when we were discussing up coming holidays and they looked at me like I was crazy. When I told it was an official State holiday, they thought I was just being me.

EDIT: Will make the game more interesting tonight, as I am usually one of the few white faces in the place. The celebration of Miami's victory will be all the more "lively".

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 04:43:47 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #239 on: June 19, 2012, 04:44:28 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss

Whoaa.....what was all of *that*?
Because you have yet to understand me, why not let these things play out?  But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther. 

What, HabteSelassie is really Bill Clinton??
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« Reply #240 on: June 19, 2012, 04:47:28 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss

Whoaa.....what was all of *that*?
Because you have yet to understand me, why not let these things play out?  But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther. 

What, HabteSelassie is really Bill Clinton??

While he was our first black President, he was too nouveau bougie to ever have been a Black Panther.
 
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« Reply #241 on: June 19, 2012, 04:48:49 PM »

The past is not dead and forgotten, and history is not static. Our present is entirely shaped by our past.  To deny the past, is to doom yourself to repeat it.

Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
   
stay blessed,
 

Just as long as you're irritated with us whitey's.  Kiss

Whoaa.....what was all of *that*?
Because you have yet to understand me, why not let these things play out?  But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther. 

What, HabteSelassie is really Bill Clinton??

While he was our first black President, he was too nouveau bougie to ever have been a Black Panther.
 

Ya nevah know.
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« Reply #242 on: June 19, 2012, 04:53:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



(balanced the budget y'all Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #243 on: June 19, 2012, 07:01:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



(balanced the budget y'all Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Yeah he did balance the budget, he knew how to work with the Republican Congress when they were voted in, something this president is not willing to do.  They say Clinton's knowledge in the discussions amazed everyone.  In contrast, Obama would be seen walking his dog outside, but would never come in to join in any of the discussions. 

Bill Clinton though, also had us enter a civil war  that would give  the Islamists a nation in the middle of Europe, to the chagrin of the Europeans of course.  I guess he wanted to facilitate the Muslims in planning  their next move towards a future caliphate.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #244 on: June 19, 2012, 07:47:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
 



 But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther.  
Really?





stay blessed,
habte selassie
So there's you and a Romanian Jew.  I stand corrected.  Smiley
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« Reply #245 on: June 19, 2012, 08:29:56 PM »


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Blah blah blah.  HumptysLassie, this whole circus of a thread hasn't changed anyone's mind.  And just in case no one's told you yet, this isn't a casting call for a Malcolm X wannabe.
 



 But if you must know, I'm teasing the world's only white Black Panther.  
Really?





stay blessed,
habte selassie
So there's you and a Romanian Jew.  I stand corrected.  Smiley

No, wait, you got that wrong.  I wasn't suggesting that Harvey Keitel was a Panther, I was trying my best to be cool like the Wolf at how immature your "teasing" was and in reality, how flippantly disrespectful.  I know you may have had the best intentions and attempt at being light-hearted, but the subject, content, context, and choice of your words are very telling  to those who have eyes to see Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #246 on: June 19, 2012, 10:38:11 PM »

Bill Clinton though, also had us enter a civil war  that would give  the Islamists a nation in the middle of Europe, to the chagrin of the Europeans of course.  I guess he wanted to facilitate the Muslims in planning  their next move towards a future caliphate. 
I don't see why Clinton would want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Europe.
From what I have read about the Yugoslavian conflict, it appears that the Albright wanted the USA to enter the war since according to the information she had,  Serbian Orthodox soldiers were killing hundreds of Bosnian Muslim men and boys point blank in the back of the head, and there is a disturbing video freely available on the internet, which appears to confirm this. Furthermore, the reports were that  Bosnian muslim women were being raped by the Serbs. 
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« Reply #247 on: June 20, 2012, 02:51:47 AM »

I don't see why Clinton would want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Europe.  
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« Reply #248 on: June 20, 2012, 09:47:30 AM »

Bill Clinton though, also had us enter a civil war  that would give  the Islamists a nation in the middle of Europe, to the chagrin of the Europeans of course.  I guess he wanted to facilitate the Muslims in planning  their next move towards a future caliphate. 
I don't see why Clinton would want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Europe.
From what I have read about the Yugoslavian conflict, it appears that the Albright wanted the USA to enter the war since according to the information she had,  Serbian Orthodox soldiers were killing hundreds of Bosnian Muslim men and boys point blank in the back of the head, and there is a disturbing video freely available on the internet, which appears to confirm this. Furthermore, the reports were that  Bosnian muslim women were being raped by the Serbs. 

You are spot on.  The US has always been interested in fighting wars to end genocide.  If the US wasn't interested in ending genocides, how would that explain our follow up actions bombing Bosniaks and Croatians and our interventions in Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Liberia, South Sudan, and Burma? 
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« Reply #249 on: June 20, 2012, 12:35:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



(balanced the budget y'all Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There's some good in everyone.  Grin
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« Reply #250 on: June 20, 2012, 12:38:58 PM »

Bill Clinton though, also had us enter a civil war  that would give  the Islamists a nation in the middle of Europe, to the chagrin of the Europeans of course.  I guess he wanted to facilitate the Muslims in planning  their next move towards a future caliphate. 

I don't see why Clinton would want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Europe.


He probably didn't "want" to, but there is that devilish little thing called "the law of unintended consequences".
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« Reply #251 on: June 20, 2012, 01:54:07 PM »

Bill Clinton though, also had us enter a civil war  that would give  the Islamists a nation in the middle of Europe, to the chagrin of the Europeans of course.  I guess he wanted to facilitate the Muslims in planning  their next move towards a future caliphate. 

I don't see why Clinton would want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Europe.


He probably didn't "want" to, but there is that devilish little thing called "the law of unintended consequences".

Right, nothing says "impending caliphate" like a parliamentary multi-party democracy.
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« Reply #252 on: September 13, 2013, 04:05:37 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.
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« Reply #253 on: September 13, 2013, 04:07:33 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.

But what if slavery isn't sinful?
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« Reply #254 on: September 13, 2013, 04:11:16 PM »

I'd also point out that Latin American slaves under the Spanish faced worse treatment than Black ones. The humanity of the latter was never really challenged, except maybe by a small group of Americans with an under-developed view of Darwinian evolution, whereas the humanity of the former was doubted, and the Roman Church refrained from doing anything about the treatment of Latin American slaves precisely because they doubted their humanity. The traditional view at the time was that all humans descended from Noah's three sons, and they were Blacks, Asians, and Whites. This is why the humanity of Latin American natives/Indians was doubted. They also held that since the Gospel hadn't been delivered to them, that God did not consider them humans possessing the same dignity as say White, Asian, or even Black person. They were considered literal animals.
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« Reply #255 on: September 13, 2013, 04:12:01 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.

But what if slavery isn't sinful?

Then a lot of our anti-slavery Fathers got it wrong.
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« Reply #256 on: September 13, 2013, 04:14:58 PM »

Not that many Fathers were abolutionists in the modern sense of the word.
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« Reply #257 on: September 13, 2013, 04:19:38 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.

But what if slavery isn't sinful?
Would love me a few Dutch slaves
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« Reply #258 on: September 13, 2013, 04:26:01 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.

But what if slavery isn't sinful?
Would love me a few Dutch slaves

Slavery still is illegal.
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« Reply #259 on: September 13, 2013, 08:04:28 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

I think you miss the point

If the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and if slavery is evil, then the Church has/had a duty to do something about it. The fact that the Church often indulged in it at times and that clear teaching on the matter is--at best--very hard to find, as the testimony of the Fathers seems contradictory on the issue, seems to seriously contend our claim as being the pillar and ground of the truth. Think of the big picture.

But what if slavery isn't sinful?
Would love me a few Dutch slaves

Slavery still is illegal.

So is thread resurrection. Oh wait, only in my fantasy world.
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« Reply #260 on: September 13, 2013, 10:21:47 PM »

But what if slavery isn't sinful?

It's sinful now, that's what is important  police
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« Reply #261 on: September 13, 2013, 11:42:52 PM »

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But what if slavery isn't sinful?

Really? REALLY? If this isn't sarcasm, you are seriously warped...
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« Reply #262 on: September 14, 2013, 12:55:18 AM »

I never liked this thread.

I did like the early on post of Yeshuaisiam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

Did God approve of it?  That's basically the point I'm making.   There have been sins that have resonated through every single religion in the world, also within the EO church.

These Monasteries believed the exploitation of people through slavery was justified somehow, or they were just sinners and wanted to exploit people for their gain.

Just as Catholics have the crusades (and Orthodox some), and all the holy wars, the monasteries where sexual abuse happened, and monasteries where slavery happened...

The world is a messed up place, parts of the church, the monasteries, sometimes get involved with the messed up world too.

When I focus on the overall church, I would not think the EO faith nor God would approve of exploiting other people.  That's basically my point.  They were either delusional or intentionally sinning.

A much later post by Gabriel the Celt was wise:
Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes 

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

James, step away from the keyboard for a moment and ask yourself, "Does the Church really still sanction slavery?".  When you realize the answer is NO, then you'll come to the understanding that it doesn't make damn difference if a few OC's might believe it's OK.  And when you realize that, then you'll come to the conclusion that you ain't gonna change their minds by ranting about it on an obscure online forum.  What's the point, really?  People will believe what they want and pounding away on a keyboard rarely, if ever, changes minds.  But, here's my prediction for this thread.  People will continue to choose to get riled up over nothing.  It'll go on for at least two more pages before the discussion no longer has anything to do with when the Moldovan church owned slaves.  It'll be split and end up in Politics.  Finally, absolutely no one will have changed their minds.  If that's your idea of making a difference, then proceed. 

It might be helpful to understand who does and who does not agree with the reasoning of St. Gregory of Nyssa.
http://www.sage.edu/faculty/salomd/nyssa/eccl.html

" Let me repeat: anyone who submits his reason to slavery has made it a god by his own passion."

"Do sheep and oxen beget [J.336] men for you? Irrational beasts have only one kind of servitude. Do these form a paltry sum for you? "He makes grass grow for the cattle and green herbs for the service of men" [Ps 103.14]. But once you have freed yourself from servitude and bondage, you desire to have others serve you. "I have obtained servants and maidens." What value is this, I ask? What merit do you see in their nature? What small worth have you bestowed upon them? What payment do you exchange for your nature which God has fashioned? God has said, "Let us make man according to our image and likeness" [Gen 1.26]. Since we are made according to God's likeness and are appointed to rule over the entire earth, tell me, who is the person who sells and buys? Only God can do this; however, it does not pertain to him at all "for the gifts of God are irrevocable" [Rom 11.29]. Because God called human nature to freedom which had become addicted to sin, he would not subject it to servitude again. If God did not subject freedom to slavery, who can deny his lordship? How does the ruler of the entire earth obtain dominion [J.337] since every possession requires payment? How can we properly estimate the earth in its entirety as well as its contents? If these things are inestimable, tell me, how much greater is man's value who is over them? If you mention the entire world you discover nothing equivalent to man's honor. He who knows human nature says that the world is not an adequate exchange for man's soul. When the Lord of the earth bought man, he acquired nothing more precious. He will then proclaim this surpassing possession along with the earth, island, sea and everything in them."

Being against slavery is part of our tradition.
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« Reply #263 on: September 14, 2013, 03:53:11 AM »

Quote
But what if slavery isn't sinful?

Really? REALLY? If this isn't sarcasm, you are seriously warped...

I'm just saying that neither the Bible nor the early Church condemned slavery as sinful. I'm not saying that I like slavery.

But I won't continue this discussion. Apperently I'm stepping on a few toes.
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« Reply #264 on: September 14, 2013, 04:28:38 AM »

Quote
But what if slavery isn't sinful?

Really? REALLY? If this isn't sarcasm, you are seriously warped...

I'm just saying that neither the Bible nor the early Church condemned slavery as sinful. I'm not saying that I like slavery.

But I won't continue this discussion. Apperently I'm stepping on a few toes.


You leave for a bit and Cyrillic becomes a mod?

Oh and BTW, Cicero said you can't have your cake and eat it too. Write it in Greek letters so you understand better.

Yes, you are saying exactly the above. And if you didn't want to add to this ridiculous thread where people get the chance to pretend to be free thinkers by engaging in the most reactionary of conservatism, you could've just not responded.

Really no toes are being stepped on, chewed on, perhaps.

But then again, who here doesn't enjoy slavery? Sorta hard to be using the internet if you don't or do pretty much anything other than die of dehydration.
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« Reply #265 on: September 14, 2013, 04:02:10 PM »

But then again, who here doesn't enjoy slavery? Sorta hard to be using the internet if you don't or do pretty much anything other than die of dehydration.

Suicide is the answer, or becoming some 100% self-sufficient mountain man. Strangely enough, the whole "suicide-is-selfish" thing is a load of bull. Living is selfish, at least for us westerners, as most of us are living off the corporate slavery of people in some backwards 3rd world nation.
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« Reply #266 on: September 14, 2013, 07:50:04 PM »

But then again, who here doesn't enjoy slavery? Sorta hard to be using the internet if you don't or do pretty much anything other than die of dehydration.

Suicide is the answer, or becoming some 100% self-sufficient mountain man. Strangely enough, the whole "suicide-is-selfish" thing is a load of bull. Living is selfish, at least for us westerners, as most of us are living off the corporate slavery of people in some backwards 3rd world nation.

suicide. yolo!
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« Reply #267 on: September 14, 2013, 08:23:27 PM »

Oh and BTW, Cicero said you can't have your cake and eat it too. Write it in Greek letters so you understand better.

Πλακένταμ ἔδερε ἰντάκταμ σιμούλκυε ἁβήρε νέκυιτ.

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« Reply #268 on: September 14, 2013, 08:47:25 PM »

I'm just saying that neither the Bible nor the early Church condemned slavery as sinful.
This is what is disturbing to many Christians. We read in history about Christian slave owners justifying their actions by quoting from the Bible (Let slaves be subject to their masters, etc.), and then read about how atheists have condemned Christianity because of its ambiguous historical position on slavery.
Slavery is real and exists even today. Perhaps the slave trade today is worse than what it was in the past since it involves the enslavement of young women for immoral purposes and not just the use of slave labor on a farm.
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« Reply #269 on: September 14, 2013, 08:55:34 PM »

Would love me a few Dutch slaves

Slavery still is illegal.

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