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Author Topic: When Our Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, Owned and Traded Slaves  (Read 8324 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2012, 06:09:11 AM »

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« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2012, 11:39:37 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP
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« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2012, 11:46:09 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP

Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

What is unclear?

If you were a slave, I doubt you would put such a happy spin on that passage. You wouldn't have the power of life and death over your master.
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« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2012, 11:51:46 AM »

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Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."
Thats right. It does NOT say, masters it is good to own slaves or Slavery is a good thing. Just another example of connecting the dots where none exist.

PP
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« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2012, 11:55:20 AM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?
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« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP

Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

What is unclear?

If you were a slave, I doubt you would put such a happy spin on that passage. You wouldn't have the power of life and death over your master.

I'm a little confused.  Are you saying that the Bible *does* promote slavery because it says that?  My understanding is that that is not the case, but rather it was much more as primuspilus wrote above.
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« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2012, 12:06:29 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?

St. Paul wasn't writing to modern children, nor was the culture in which he was writing anything like the culture we find ourselves in. You can't just rip his words out of context like that. You seem to have quite bizarrely come to the conclusion that by my posts I'm supporting slavery so I suggest that you should maybe re-read my posts in this thread. I don't believe St. Paul was supporting slavery and I can't see how you can read that into it, but in an Empire dependent on slave labour (I think the estimate is about 20% of all inhabitants were slaves) and as a leader of the Church which attracted those same slaves he had to respond to the pastoral needs of the flock.

James
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« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2012, 12:07:23 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?

If opportunity allows for it *any* slave should, hopefully cognizant of the risk involved, escape their bondage.  Until they are able to do so or are otherwise set free, however, obedience *may* be a matter of life and death.  Life being an extremely precious gift from God, it may just be "better" to obey one's master than not.  Just "thinkin'" with my fingertips, here....
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« Reply #188 on: June 15, 2012, 12:16:06 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?

St. Paul wasn't writing to modern children, nor was the culture in which he was writing anything like the culture we find ourselves in. You can't just rip his words out of context like that. You seem to have quite bizarrely come to the conclusion that by my posts I'm supporting slavery so I suggest that you should maybe re-read my posts in this thread. I don't believe St. Paul was supporting slavery and I can't see how you can read that into it, but in an Empire dependent on slave labour (I think the estimate is about 20% of all inhabitants were slaves) and as a leader of the Church which attracted those same slaves he had to respond to the pastoral needs of the flock.

James
Obviously, you do not support slavery. I was talking about the passages in the NT saying that slaves should be subject to their masters. I don't see an explicit denunciation of slavery as immoral in the NT.
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« Reply #189 on: June 15, 2012, 12:58:21 PM »

Quote
iously, you do not support slavery. I was talking about the passages in the NT saying that slaves should be subject to their masters. I don't see an explicit denunciation of slavery as immoral in the NT
That is because it was acceptable in his time. It is not now.

I would also add that cannibalism is not explicitly denounced in scripture either. Neither is marrying your 1st cousin.

The point is, you have to take in context of the period in which they are writing and the issues that needed to be addressed.

PP
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« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2012, 01:04:20 PM »

Quote
iously, you do not support slavery. I was talking about the passages in the NT saying that slaves should be subject to their masters. I don't see an explicit denunciation of slavery as immoral in the NT
That is because it was acceptable in his time. It is not now.

I would also add that cannibalism is not explicitly denounced in scripture either. Neither is marrying your 1st cousin.

The point is, you have to take in context of the period in which they are writing and the issues that needed to be addressed.

PP
Does that imply that, in your view,  morality is relative to the period that you are talking about?
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« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2012, 02:01:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.



 The blacks continued their pagan rituals and witchcraft and when one minister tried to edify them and told them to stop throwing hexes under their neighbors doorstep, they all began to giggle.  


I am sorry, I know you are trying to help by being nice here, but I have to comment on this.  Black folks in America have perhaps been the MOST Christian, seemingly the ONLY people who truly lived the Christian life of turning the other cheek, and have had the most substantive faith in our Lord of perhaps any folks since the Apostles.  Black American Christianity is the only Protestant denomination I absolutely respect at all levels, because black folks built their institutions facing the absolute devil on a daily basis.  What is worse, black folks trust Jesus more than any of us, because the supposed Christians who read the Bible were the people perpetrating such degrading evil against an entire race of people, and yet black folks didn't hold that against Jesus.  That is admirable.  So the comment you just made seems a bit out of touch with the historicity of the situation.  A for effort, but still, those words you posted put a bad taste in my mouth  Huh

As has often been the case, it was the slaves and the down trodden  who have been the most sincere Christians in the American experience, and its the establishment that has been the hypocrites Jesus warned us about.

Some of the paternalistic, hypocritical, and nonsensical dribble I keep reading on this thread reminds me of what our grandmothers taught us. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."  Or as we in Rastafari say, "If a fish woulda keep 'im big yap shut, 'im neva 'a been caught in the first place!"  

It is enlightening to say the least to hear some of these opinions, but also a bit disheartening.  Out of the mercy of God, I know many folks don't truly mean half of what they are saying, but sometimes reading this kind of stuff really hurts my feelings in a general way.  Of course, I got a lot of ugly family drama going on right now, so I am also a bit sensitive about my expectations of my fellow humans.  For that I apologize in advance if I have been badgering or bullying people here.  I respect and love you all, just somethings I feel like I have to speak on them.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The Black people today and since the Civil War are among the most devout people in the U.S.  I can only recall the words of Father Groechel a Catholic priest and probably a future saint in the Catholic Church who said he wished the women in his church could be as loving and kind as the Evangelical women in his neighborhood... and Father Groechel was talking about the black Evangelicals.

When I mentioned witchcraft, I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.   I'm sorry you misunderstood what I wrote since it has nothing to do with Blacks, but with paganism and the occult in general.  I know hexes are common even among Christians in Southern Europe, and the Near and Middle East as well... as is the evil eye and I know well the harm that comes about because of it.    angel
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« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2012, 02:03:06 PM »

Quote
Does that imply that, in your view,  morality is relative to the period that you are talking about?
Somewhat. An example if you'll permit me.

If you were to marry your first cousin, many people would ridicule you, say it is wrong, etc. However, it is all over scripture.

There are some things that are truly sinful and there are things that society thinks are wrong (for good reason). Simply put, not everything needs to be addressed by scripture.

Im not saying slavery is good, nor evil. However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.

PP
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« Reply #193 on: June 15, 2012, 02:18:47 PM »

However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.
I disagree. I think that those who engage in trafficking of child slaves today are in serious danger of losing their salvation.
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« Reply #194 on: June 15, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »

Quote
Does that imply that, in your view,  morality is relative to the period that you are talking about?
Somewhat. An example if you'll permit me.

If you were to marry your first cousin, many people would ridicule you, say it is wrong, etc. However, it is all over scripture.

There are some things that are truly sinful and there are things that society thinks are wrong (for good reason). Simply put, not everything needs to be addressed by scripture.

Im not saying slavery is good, nor evil. However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.

PP

You do know that the Protestant royal families of Europe married their first cousins except for the Orthodox, where they had to be once removed.  In other words, the Orthodox were allowed to marry the child of their first cousin.  Anyway except for the peasants, people only had to do with relatives and family, and since marriages were fixed they were usually cousins.   As for slavery, many times it was an alternative to killing  an enemy combatant or starvation.  Huh
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« Reply #195 on: June 15, 2012, 02:26:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


When I mentioned witchcraft, I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.   I'm sorry you misunderstood what I wrote since it has nothing to do with Blacks, but with paganism and the occult in general.  I know hexes are common even among Christians in Southern Europe, and the Near and Middle East as well... as is the evil eye and I know well the harm that comes about because of it.    angel

Thank you for the clarification, sorry for the mix up Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #196 on: June 15, 2012, 02:37:24 PM »

However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.
I disagree. I think that those who engage in trafficking of child slaves today are in serious danger of losing their salvation.
Im not talking about that. Im talking about slavery and its context in scripture and why it was not addressed.

PP

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« Reply #197 on: June 15, 2012, 02:40:35 PM »

However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.
I disagree. I think that those who engage in trafficking of child slaves today are in serious danger of losing their salvation.

The people who engage in trafficking of child slaves are inhuman and if anything they never had any salvation, but we must not think of all slavery in that context.  There were people that sold their children so the other ones wouldn't starve.  You can't consider these parents as being inhuman?  As  for the person who buys these slaves,  their salvation would depend on how they treat those slaves.  Many gave them their freedom later on, and so forth.

I had an ancestor that was taken into slavery at the time of the massacre of the island of Chios, and I do know that many of the slaves taken at the time were released if they were paid a ransom... or if their Turkish owners had a kind heart.  We can't put the slavery of the past as being the same as that of our present day...blacks excluded, since they were being exploited by some very unethical human beings...  in Africa as well as by the whites that shipped them over for profit.  Angry
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« Reply #198 on: June 15, 2012, 02:55:43 PM »

However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.
I disagree. I think that those who engage in trafficking of child slaves today are in serious danger of losing their salvation.

The people who engage in trafficking of child slaves are inhuman and if anything they never had any salvation, but we must not think of all slavery in that context.  There were people that sold their children so the other ones wouldn't starve.  You can't consider these parents as being inhuman?  As  for the person who buys these slaves,  their salvation would depend on how they treat those slaves.  Many gave them their freedom later on, and so forth.

I had an ancestor that was taken into slavery at the time of the massacre of the island of Chios, and I do know that many of the slaves taken at the time were released if they were paid a ransom... or if their Turkish owners had a kind heart.  We can't put the slavery of the past as being the same as that of our present day...blacks excluded, since they were being exploited by some very unethical human beings...  in Africa as well as by the whites that shipped them over for profit.  Angry

Just out of curiosity, when you refer to "whites" who shipped and traded slaves for profit, do you include those many Muslim Arabs (many of whom were/are not "white" as commonly referred to) who happily and with great profit engage(d) in slave trading?
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« Reply #199 on: June 15, 2012, 03:07:57 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?

St. Paul wasn't writing to modern children, nor was the culture in which he was writing anything like the culture we find ourselves in. You can't just rip his words out of context like that. You seem to have quite bizarrely come to the conclusion that by my posts I'm supporting slavery so I suggest that you should maybe re-read my posts in this thread. I don't believe St. Paul was supporting slavery and I can't see how you can read that into it, but in an Empire dependent on slave labour (I think the estimate is about 20% of all inhabitants were slaves) and as a leader of the Church which attracted those same slaves he had to respond to the pastoral needs of the flock.

James
Obviously, you do not support slavery. I was talking about the passages in the NT saying that slaves should be subject to their masters. I don't see an explicit denunciation of slavery as immoral in the NT.

Slavery did not have to be denounced as an institution--that would have done less than Christianity actually did vis a vis slavery, which is turn the whole concept on its head. You know, that whole thing about slaves being Christ's freedmen and masters being slaves of Christ. But, sure, that's just more Christian namby-pamby poppycock platitudes designed to lull the masses into submission to the powers that be rather than organizing and taking their rights.
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« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2012, 03:25:02 PM »

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PP
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« Reply #201 on: June 15, 2012, 04:09:19 PM »

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Yup.  (And we're not even really white--which is the "color" in the space between, above and below these letters!  And most of my beard!)
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« Reply #202 on: June 15, 2012, 07:06:23 PM »

I think I'm kind of dark pink, or some sort of orange.
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« Reply #203 on: June 15, 2012, 07:09:31 PM »

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I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP

Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

What is unclear?

If you were a slave, I doubt you would put such a happy spin on that passage. You wouldn't have the power of life and death over your master.

I'm a little confused.  Are you saying that the Bible *does* promote slavery because it says that?  My understanding is that that is not the case, but rather it was much more as primuspilus wrote above.

Well, it may be that the Lord allowed certain things to be for a time. He said "I repent that I made man," and then later He said, "I will not destroy the world by flood again." He let the Jewish people be in Egypt for hundreds of years before he led them out. Many years later, Jesus said to the Apostles, "I no longer call you servants, but friends." So, the Lord will not compromise our free will, which may explain part of why slavery 'was allowed' to remain on the Earth; whereas you can believe that a loving God would want people to be free. It may be that the Lord chose to complete things in His good time. Not my timeline, but His.  Undecided Heavy stuff to ponder.
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« Reply #204 on: June 15, 2012, 07:13:54 PM »

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Also known as history's boogeyman, or the blame for everything evil in the universe  Roll Eyes


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Especially when they're Male, Southern and Christian.  What you got yourself there is an unholy trinity of evil.  A very pious black man explained it all to his pupil.  That man is Jeremiah Wright and his pupil was Husein Obama.
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« Reply #205 on: June 15, 2012, 07:15:22 PM »

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Also known as history's boogeyman, or the blame for everything evil in the universe  Roll Eyes


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Especially when they're Male, Southern and Christian.  What you got yourself there is an unholy trinity of evil.  A very pious black man explained it all to his pupil.  That man is Jeremiah Wright and his pupil was Husein Obama.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #206 on: June 15, 2012, 07:30:49 PM »

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Also known as history's boogeyman, or the blame for everything evil in the universe  Roll Eyes


PP

Especially when they're Male, Southern and Christian.  What you got yourself there is an unholy trinity of evil.  A very pious black man explained it all to his pupil.  That man is Jeremiah Wright and his pupil was Husein Obama.

 Roll Eyes

 Roll Eyes  Hee hee.  Emoticons are fun as they can allow us to express derision and disagreement without having to explain ourselves.  Like a poorly worded, sophomoric blog.   
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« Reply #207 on: June 15, 2012, 09:29:31 PM »

I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.  

This is not correct.  There were plenty of cases where slaves were taught Christianity as well as learned to read and write.  Case in point General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson supported with money and work a Sunday School for both freedmen and slaves.  Here is a link to a letter from 1858 in the archives of Virginia Military Institute in which he describes how the school works:
 http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=9269
I would have to look for it, but some time ago I read of an letter that he sent home during the Civil War which rather then news of the conflict, which people thought he would write about, he was sending funds to continue the school. 

There were also numerous cases of slaves or former slaves who were literate and Christian. These include
Phillis Wheatley http://www.masshist.org/endofslavery/?queryID=57
and
Absolom Jones, born in slavery who taught himself to read, bought the freedom of his wife and himself and became the first Episcopal priest of African descent in the United States.  http://www.aecst.org/ajones.htm

Benjamin Banneker, who had never been a slave, was educated and an important figure.

It was after the suppressed revolt led by Denmark Vesey in 1822 and particularly the Nat Turner Revolt in 1831 that there were more laws passed to forbid literacy.  This was to prevent the slaves from reading abolitionist materials and to think of other ways of living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

What have you read that suggested that slaveholders did not try to teach Christianity to their slaves?  Do you recall any sources please?

Ebor
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« Reply #208 on: June 15, 2012, 09:40:36 PM »

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« Reply #209 on: June 15, 2012, 11:35:40 PM »

I think I'm kind of dark pink, or some sort of orange.

I know a lot of orange people from Southern California. 
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« Reply #210 on: June 15, 2012, 11:40:11 PM »

I think I'm kind of dark pink, or some sort of orange.

I know a lot of orange people from Southern California. 

There are many in Arizona as well, but not me; I am one of the whitest people in the Great State, as I burn instead of tanning.
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« Reply #211 on: June 16, 2012, 09:54:36 AM »

I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.  

This is not correct.  There were plenty of cases where slaves were taught Christianity as well as learned to read and write.  Case in point General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson supported with money and work a Sunday School for both freedmen and slaves.  Here is a link to a letter from 1858 in the archives of Virginia Military Institute in which he describes how the school works:
 http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=9269
I would have to look for it, but some time ago I read of an letter that he sent home during the Civil War which rather then news of the conflict, which people thought he would write about, he was sending funds to continue the school. 

There were also numerous cases of slaves or former slaves who were literate and Christian. These include
Phillis Wheatley http://www.masshist.org/endofslavery/?queryID=57
and
Absolom Jones, born in slavery who taught himself to read, bought the freedom of his wife and himself and became the first Episcopal priest of African descent in the United States.  http://www.aecst.org/ajones.htm

Benjamin Banneker, who had never been a slave, was educated and an important figure.

It was after the suppressed revolt led by Denmark Vesey in 1822 and particularly the Nat Turner Revolt in 1831 that there were more laws passed to forbid literacy.  This was to prevent the slaves from reading abolitionist materials and to think of other ways of living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

What have you read that suggested that slaveholders did not try to teach Christianity to their slaves?  Do you recall any sources please?

Ebor

Exactly.  Thomas Jackson is one of my personal heros, and his picture hangs in my office at work.  When the Southern Baptists split from the Northern just before the Civil War, the SBC had over 200,000 black members.  Not all American slave holders fit the stereotype.  But then again, as Napoleon put it.  History is nothing other than lies that have been agreed too.  To which I add; by the victors.
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« Reply #212 on: June 16, 2012, 10:01:07 AM »

I disagree with that last.  If that were the case then none of the materials and information that I linked to would be available.  There is the truth that is History, things that did happen, people who did exist, actions and deeds that were done.  While it may not all be taught, for a variety of reasons not all of which are malicious, Real History can be known.  That is why I replied in this thread, because I knew things that really happened that countered an incorrect idea and I posted there here so that true historical references can be seen.



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« Reply #213 on: June 16, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »

I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.  

This is not correct.  There were plenty of cases where slaves were taught Christianity as well as learned to read and write.  Case in point General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson supported with money and work a Sunday School for both freedmen and slaves.  Here is a link to a letter from 1858 in the archives of Virginia Military Institute in which he describes how the school works:
 http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=9269
I would have to look for it, but some time ago I read of an letter that he sent home during the Civil War which rather then news of the conflict, which people thought he would write about, he was sending funds to continue the school. 

There were also numerous cases of slaves or former slaves who were literate and Christian. These include
Phillis Wheatley http://www.masshist.org/endofslavery/?queryID=57
and
Absolom Jones, born in slavery who taught himself to read, bought the freedom of his wife and himself and became the first Episcopal priest of African descent in the United States.  http://www.aecst.org/ajones.htm

Benjamin Banneker, who had never been a slave, was educated and an important figure.

It was after the suppressed revolt led by Denmark Vesey in 1822 and particularly the Nat Turner Revolt in 1831 that there were more laws passed to forbid literacy.  This was to prevent the slaves from reading abolitionist materials and to think of other ways of living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

What have you read that suggested that slaveholders did not try to teach Christianity to their slaves?  Do you recall any sources please?

Ebor

Exactly.  Thomas Jackson is one of my personal heros, and his picture hangs in my office at work.  When the Southern Baptists split from the Northern just before the Civil War, the SBC had over 200,000 black members.  Not all American slave holders fit the stereotype.  But then again, as Napoleon put it.  History is nothing other than lies that have been agreed too.  To which I add; by the victors.

I admire General Jackson as well, all the while believing the side he fought for to be evil.
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« Reply #214 on: June 16, 2012, 02:40:44 PM »

I think I'm kind of dark pink, or some sort of orange.

I know a lot of orange people from Southern California. 

There are many in Arizona as well, but not me; I am one of the whitest people in the Great State, as I burn instead of tanning.

A man after my own... um... skin. Pasty-skins like us need to stick together.
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« Reply #215 on: June 16, 2012, 02:58:17 PM »

I think I'm kind of dark pink, or some sort of orange.

I know a lot of orange people from Southern California. 

There are many in Arizona as well, but not me; I am one of the whitest people in the Great State, as I burn instead of tanning.

A man after my own... um... skin. Pasty-skins like us need to stick together.

That conjures up a rather unpleasant visual image--pasty skins sticking together.  Eeeeeuw.
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« Reply #216 on: June 16, 2012, 03:33:34 PM »

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PP

Especially when they're Male, Southern and Christian.  What you got yourself there is an unholy trinity of evil.  A very pious black man explained it all to his pupil.  That man is Jeremiah Wright and his pupil was Husein Obama.

 Roll Eyes

 Roll Eyes  Hee hee.  Emoticons are fun as they can allow us to express derision and disagreement without having to explain ourselves.  Like a poorly worded, sophomoric blog.   

 Cheesy
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« Reply #217 on: June 16, 2012, 04:04:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Grossly insensitive, but I was trying to make a point.  The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past.  It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about.  This is just like how my ex used to bring up crap from months to years in the past to complain about.  If we are going to worry about slavery today, lets start another thread about moslems.
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« Reply #218 on: June 16, 2012, 04:22:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

 The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past. 

Finally, someone who gets it.
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« Reply #219 on: June 16, 2012, 05:11:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Grossly insensitive, but I was trying to make a point.  The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past.  It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about.  This is just like how my ex used to bring up crap from months to years in the past to complain about.  If we are going to worry about slavery today, lets start another thread about moslems.
Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.
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« Reply #220 on: June 16, 2012, 05:36:05 PM »

However the issue of slavery outside of how you treat the slave in question, or how the slave treats his master, has nothing to do with salvation.
I disagree. I think that those who engage in trafficking of child slaves today are in serious danger of losing their salvation.

The people who engage in trafficking of child slaves are inhuman and if anything they never had any salvation, but we must not think of all slavery in that context.  There were people that sold their children so the other ones wouldn't starve.  You can't consider these parents as being inhuman?  As  for the person who buys these slaves,  their salvation would depend on how they treat those slaves.  Many gave them their freedom later on, and so forth.

I had an ancestor that was taken into slavery at the time of the massacre of the island of Chios, and I do know that many of the slaves taken at the time were released if they were paid a ransom... or if their Turkish owners had a kind heart.  We can't put the slavery of the past as being the same as that of our present day...blacks excluded, since they were being exploited by some very unethical human beings...  in Africa as well as by the whites that shipped them over for profit.  Angry

Just out of curiosity, when you refer to "whites" who shipped and traded slaves for profit, do you include those many Muslim Arabs (many of whom were/are not "white" as commonly referred to) who happily and with great profit engage(d) in slave trading?

I included Muslim Arabs as well as Black Africans when I said they were exploited; 'in Africa'....  The Muslim Arabs bought them from the blacks, and then sold them to the European profiteers.   Sad
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« Reply #221 on: June 16, 2012, 06:05:56 PM »

Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Pretty much.  Most of the evil in the world comes from someone whining so much about the past that someone in the present gets sick and tired of it and gives him something to really whine about.
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« Reply #222 on: June 16, 2012, 06:15:15 PM »

Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Pretty much.  Most of the evil in the world comes from someone whining so much about the past that someone in the present gets sick and tired of it and gives him something to really whine about.
How about that?! Shocked For once you and I agree on something. Grin
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« Reply #223 on: June 16, 2012, 06:34:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Grossly insensitive, but I was trying to make a point.  The whole debate is pointless.  We are worrying about things that Christians did in the past.  It is good to learn from the past and if the Church were trying to reinstitute it, it might be something to worry about.  This is just like how my ex used to bring up crap from months to years in the past to complain about.  If we are going to worry about slavery today, lets start another thread about moslems.
Like that why bother about anything that ever happened anywhere? It's all past.

Isn't it interesting that when one talks of trying to understand the Roman Church and enter into dialogue with it in an effort to heal the Great Schism, all of sudden to some, history become the trump card which stops all such talk 'dead on the tracks' ----the Crusades, the Unia and so on....But when history runs into the perceived belief requirements of some of contemporary American political discourse, it isn't relevant and should be overlooked. Hmmmm..... I agree that for the most part the past is the past and judging people and institutions by the behaviors of actors long dead does lead to mostly a lot of whining.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:35:50 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Zenovia
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« Reply #224 on: June 16, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »

I was writing about the African blacks before the Civil War, when they were deliberately not being edified towards Christianity by the Christians in the South,  because to do so,  it would have meant they were human beings and shouldn't be kept as slaves.  

This is not correct.  There were plenty of cases where slaves were taught Christianity as well as learned to read and write.  Case in point General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson supported with money and work a Sunday School for both freedmen and slaves.  Here is a link to a letter from 1858 in the archives of Virginia Military Institute in which he describes how the school works:
 http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=9269
I would have to look for it, but some time ago I read of an letter that he sent home during the Civil War which rather then news of the conflict, which people thought he would write about, he was sending funds to continue the school.  

There were also numerous cases of slaves or former slaves who were literate and Christian. These include
Phillis Wheatley http://www.masshist.org/endofslavery/?queryID=57
and
Absolom Jones, born in slavery who taught himself to read, bought the freedom of his wife and himself and became the first Episcopal priest of African descent in the United States.  http://www.aecst.org/ajones.htm

Benjamin Banneker, who had never been a slave, was educated and an important figure.

It was after the suppressed revolt led by Denmark Vesey in 1822 and particularly the Nat Turner Revolt in 1831 that there were more laws passed to forbid literacy.  This was to prevent the slaves from reading abolitionist materials and to think of other ways of living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

What have you read that suggested that slaveholders did not try to teach Christianity to their slaves?  Do you recall any sources please?

Ebor

It was a text book of my granddaughters that was a compilation of letters from educated blacks.  There were exceptions of course, and I did read a biography about an exceptionally bright black slave in the Caribbean that managed to educate himself and bought his freedom.  I wish I could recall his name, but he had a successful business and spoke to Parlament against slavery.  He later became a minister and married in Britain.

The one thing that made an impression on me was that he couldn't understand how the English people who were so kind in Britain could be so cruel in the Caribbean.  These books also changed my mind about slavery in the South, since I couldn't imagine Southerners being any different pre Civil War than the way they are now.   I gathered from these books that a bright black slave could gain favors and even an education, something that the others who were made to work in the fields could not.  Also many of them were the illegitimate children or grandchildren of the slave owners, which was a step above what existed in the Muslim world.  I had read that the black babies born in the harems were killed, which would account for the lack of mulatto's in the Islamic world.

One of the tales was about a minister that tried to speak English in the way  the slaves spoke, that way they could understand him when he preached to them.  He is the one that mentioned the 'hexes', which I personally attribute  to the evil that seemed to  permeat society at the time.  The stories in the book did show a great deal of cruelty.   His white congregation did get annoyed with him, since they felt he was being paid to minister to them and not to preach to the slaves.

As you know, there was a difference in the position of the slaves that worked in the fields and the brighter slaves that worked in the homes.  I'm sure the nannies that nursed and raised the children of the owners were well loved and I'm sure they were Christian.   I was shocked though at some of the stories, such as the black children running around  naked even in cold weather.

As for the blacks being looked upon as not being fully human, it was a sign of the times.  There is a book in the Smithsonian called:  Apes and Angels, with caricatures of the Irish who at the time were considered white apes.  These weren't only British caricatures.  Many were American.    Sad



  

  
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