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Author Topic: When Our Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, Owned and Traded Slaves  (Read 7502 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« on: June 12, 2012, 12:09:33 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:12:23 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 12:21:19 PM »

[edit]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:21:32 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 12:26:53 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 12:36:20 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

what do u mean "the biggest slave-owners?"
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 12:37:13 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

Did God approve of it?  That's basically the point I'm making.   There have been sins that have resonated through every single religion in the world, also within the EO church.

These Monasteries believed the exploitation of people through slavery was justified somehow, or they were just sinners and wanted to exploit people for their gain.

Just as Catholics have the crusades (and Orthodox some), and all the holy wars, the monasteries where sexual abuse happened, and monasteries where slavery happened...

The world is a messed up place, parts of the church, the monasteries, sometimes get involved with the messed up world too.

When I focus on the overall church, I would not think the EO faith nor God would approve of exploiting other people.  That's basically my point.  They were either delusional or intentionally sinning.
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 12:38:09 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 12:43:58 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

what do u mean "the biggest slave-owners?"
They owned more Gypsies than any other institution. You know, the venerable fathers were too busy with the prayer of the heart,  so they needed slaves to  do the menial work.
A very large percentage of the monasteries of Wallachia and Moldova, with their land, villages and slaves were "dedicated" ("Inchinate"), that is were dependencies of the "holy Places", be that the Anastasis in Jerusalem, or monasteries in Athos, St. Catherine in Sinai and many other holy shrines of the ancient Patriarchates. Most of their revenue went directly to these places.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 12:45:19 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.

i'll bet some of the original unitarians owned slaves, too.
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 12:46:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 12:52:29 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 12:53:19 PM »

Feed the "pietry"
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 12:55:40 PM »

My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

How does slave-holding by clergymen and monastics demonstrate something which is irreconcilable with Truth?  How does it change anything?

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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 01:03:56 PM »

My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

How does slave-holding by clergymen and monastics demonstrate something which is irreconcilable with Truth?  How does it change anything?


Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.

i'll bet some of the original unitarians owned slaves, too.

I don't have time to look up an example, but I know a few of the founding fathers were Unitarians and some of them owned slaves.  I don't think finding an example to shore up your bet would be too hard to find!


One thing that I cannot believe anyone has asked yet, what was the going price for a Gypsy slave back then?  Is it comparable to a Thai one these days?
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 01:14:46 PM »

augustin, you are not far from the truth.

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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 01:20:25 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

Owning slaves is wrong?  Gee, you must read a different Bible than I do.
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 01:30:17 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 01:43:40 PM »

The real problem here is that you're literate. You wouldn't have to deal with these earth-shattering revelations if the elite hadn't decided to let you learn to read.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 01:47:24 PM »

Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.

Well, I'm not concerned with 'what is Truth' so much as the one ecclesiologiocal perspective that sees the Church as the pillar of Truth.  Actually, in my Bible, it's "pillar of truth" - small t.  Such an ecclesiology, indeed, sees the Church as stable, static and monolithic.  No argument there.  However, this ecclesiology concerns change at an intra-institutional level, not at a broader, social level.  You are condemning the Church because its seemingly ineffectiveness at social change by citing Scripture that refers to the instituted administration of the Church.  The connection just can't be made.

The Church technically remains the pillar of truth, referring to apostolic succession, even if such slaves were owed by the Church in the name of the Church.  The Church as pillar of truth really has nothing to do with social change.  
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 01:51:38 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 01:52:25 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

No, no, you misunderstand; what was really going on was that the Monastery was acting much the way Monster.com or the Craigslist jobs section works, they were just finding these people work...yeah...I'm sure that's what happened.
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
And in Romania they become Pentecostals and, I tell you this from personal interaction with a few priests, the clergy seems rather relieved they don't have to deal with the Gypsies anymore.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 04:12:26 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 04:33:06 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 04:38:10 PM »

And I could start a new thread called: "When Our Dear Comrades, the Communists, the Pillar of a New Society, Murdered and Imprisioned Their Own People".

Point is-- this isn't really relevant to someones salvation in the 21st century.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 04:47:36 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Agreed.  After reading Ephesians and Fr. Lawrence's commentary, the contradictory nature of the Gospel message and owning slaves doesn't bother me.  St. Paul simply acknowledged that slavery was a part of the culture.  Rather than try and outlaw it (an impossible task), he admonished owners to treat their slaves as brothers.

Did the monastics of Moldova follow St. Pauls' admonitions?  I don't know.  And that's something between them and God.  But the culture of 1852 is vastly different than 2012. 
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 04:53:55 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 05:01:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

stay blessed,
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 05:08:46 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?
Because most on this board became Orthodox under the illusion that Orthodoxy is some timeless capsule, where nothing changes. And when change occurs, we'll bury our nous deeper under the sand. And life goes on...
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 05:09:46 PM »

This thread is just making more clear for me something that has been cooking for a while.

Big Sinner articulated it best.
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 05:10:17 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.

It would certainly not take much for him to get me to understand that.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 05:14:36 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 05:15:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

So morality changes in the eyes of Christianity?
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 05:15:35 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.
Well, nominal, cultural Orthodoxy has its problems, but it's still a breathable space. It's "sincere Orthodoxy" that's really scary.
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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2012, 05:16:02 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?
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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 05:16:20 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

That ain't what he's saying. 
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:49 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

Not at all, provided that I was treated in accordance with the rules set out in such Orthodox writings as the Domostroy.  It would be preferable to much of what I have witnessed in the American ghettos.
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:53 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2012, 05:21:06 PM »

The slavery issue is quite complex given the fact that how most Americans understand slavery in our country's history is radically different than what was practiced by the Latins.

And it is complicated by Philemon. A text almost no one reads correctly (Habte already alludes to some of the reasons), if at all. One of my favorite of the Pauline texts.

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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

That ain't what he's saying.  

I suspect that the slavery of Gypsies that Augustin referenced has less to do with 'brotherly slavery' or any purported apologia to gloss the practice and put a religious imprimatur upon it and more to do with say, plantation slavery. Funny how no one wonders how the 'well treated' slaves felt about bondage in their attempts to justify the practice. If slavery was so great and normal in Old Testament times, why did the Jews need Moses to lead them out of bondage?

Frankly, it sickens my heart that any modern Orthodox Christian can attempt to justify the practice. Perhaps one of our clergy members would like to weigh in here on this before it goes any further.

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2012, 05:28:07 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
Ialmisry, from you I don't expect much. Perhaps a map.
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
Ialmisry, from you I don't expect much. Perhaps a map.

That was witty and original.
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
And in Romania they become Pentecostals and, I tell you this from personal interaction with a few priests, the clergy seems rather relieved they don't have to deal with the Gypsies anymore.
Having personal experience with their interaction with Church, I don't blame the clergy for their relief.
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2012, 05:32:07 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2012, 05:32:39 PM »

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. While people slept, his enemy came and also sowed weed grass among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprang up and brought forth fruit, the weeds also appeared. The slaves of the householder came forward and said to him, 'Lord, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where did this darnel come from?'

The man said to them, 'An enemy has does this.'

The slaves then asked him, 'Do you want us to go and gather them up?'

But the man replied, 'No, for fear that while you gather up the darnel weeds, you might also uproot the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will tell the reapers, 'First, gather up the darnel weeds, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." -Matthew 13

Antiquitas sine veritate vetustas erroris est; antiquity without truth is the old error.

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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2012, 05:34:26 PM »

It's sad and very wrong that the Church sells Gypsies. After all, Gypsies are property of the state. They belong in prison labor camps, working for the benefit of the state, not in private bourgeois homes or in monasteries. Slavery and monasticism don't mix. Monks who have slaves do not suffer, and monasticism is about suffering. Thank God Stalin brought people back to the true path.
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2012, 05:35:41 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

Liberalism.

Although, both -isms are impossible to define without endless argument, and all parties holding such philosophies would be of better service in prison labor camps.
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2012, 05:35:50 PM »

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy

Perhaps they got inspiration from some hadith brought by the muslim tartars.
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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2012, 05:36:54 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.
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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2012, 05:37:54 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2012, 05:38:48 PM »

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy

Perhaps they got inspiration from some hadith brought by the muslim tartars.

Sins may be forgiven, but crimes must be punished.
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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2012, 05:39:49 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
I believe he is referring to blind obsession with a supposed past "golden age" which is irreproachable and an eternal standard by which one must live today.

For Evangelicals this would be a blend of 19th century rural america or 1950's suburban america. The claim here is that many Orthodox converts view the medieval or generally "pre-modern era" Orthodox Church heirarchy and praxis in this way.
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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:13 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

Indeed. Stalin was so much more efficient and had a larger vision. He was also able to implement his vision without people getting angry enough to start a civil war.



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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:42 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  

The straw men are breeding like rabbit's 'round here.  
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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2012, 05:40:57 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

What do you mean by "Conservatism"?
I believe he is referring to blind obsession with a supposed past "golden age" which is irreproachable and an eternal standard by which one must live today.

In railing against one obsession, he has fallen into another himself.
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« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2012, 05:41:12 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

They are probably pretty similar, but we don't really have precise documentation for the former.  A better comparison would be the forced deportations of say Chechnians or Crimean Tatars.  Mortality rates were near 50%.  All attempts were made to destroy the religions, languages and customs of the deported.  Pretty much the same as trans-atlantic slave trading.    
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« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2012, 05:42:35 PM »


Sins may be forgiven, but crimes must be punished.
Yeah, like that woman caught in adultery.

'You betrayed the LAWWWWWWW"
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« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »

Btw, everyone in the US associates slavery with the "peculiar institution" of the antebellum South.  That doesn't cover all forms of slavery. In Egypt, for instance, and other muslim states, manumitted slaves ruled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilman#History

In Rome, a manumitted slave of a Roman became a Roman citizen.  Not exactly how slavery was practiced in the South, as Dread Scott showed.
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« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2012, 05:48:55 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  

The straw men are breeding like rabbit's 'round here.  

Not really.  It is a valid point.  When it is convenient for Christianity / the Orthodox Church morality is subjected to culture and time.  Other times it isn't.  If one is looking to Christianity for any sort of objective moral compass, it isn't there.  You have to look within in the Kierkegaard sense of it.  
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« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  
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« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:51 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?
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« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2012, 05:51:08 PM »

Btw, everyone in the US associates slavery with the "peculiar institution" of the antebellum South.  That doesn't cover all forms of slavery. In Egypt, for instance, and other muslim states, manumitted slaves ruled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilman#History

In Rome, a manumitted slave of a Roman became a Roman citizen.  Not exactly how slavery was practiced in the South, as Dread Scott showed.

Everything always goes down hill when the slaves are freed.
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« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2012, 05:53:26 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?

The ownership that involves a receipt and control pales in comparison to the ownership that involves love and sacrifice.
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« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »

Yeah the hierarchy only owned slaves in order to sacrifice themselves for those slaves. You'd think they were into bdsm
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« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.
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« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2012, 06:00:12 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes 

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and periphery of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2012, 06:00:44 PM »

I'm pretty sure there are many here that are perfectly fine with slavery, an a few, pious souls that long that they had the joy of being owned and trafficked by some Athonite dependency in the Wallachian plain.
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« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2012, 06:02:53 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and the far-flung periphery of Orthodoxy.
It wasn't ajust a group of monks, it was two, and at that time (Phanariote rule) the richest metropolitan sees of the Great Church of Christ plus the dependencies the Holy and God Protected Patriarchies of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem had there.
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« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2012, 06:03:08 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  
Don't you get it? We're supposed to hate Orthodoxy as much as our nominal friends do, just because someone (or someones) lived up to the ideals of our Faith in a less than perfect manner. I'll break it down:

Orthodox Christian(s) + sin= ZOMG!!1 Ur a bourgeois hippokrit! Orthodoxy iz false! Converts suck!!!11one

Hope that clears things up.

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« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2012, 06:07:35 PM »

When Cuza secularized the great estates of the "dependent" monasteries in 1864 he incurred many anathemas especially from Athos.
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« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 06:11:00 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.
What exactly happened 150 years ago?

Take for instance, Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemmings, in reality his wife.  When their relationship began, they were in Paris, where slavery was illegal.  In VA, however, no marriage between them would be recognized, and their family relations would have to be conducted through the terms of slavery. Their daughter Beverly, for instance "ran away" (the overseer paid for her transport up north).  Since a fugitive slave had to be reclaimed by his master, Jefferson not pursuing the matter let her free without any other slaveowner being able to claim her.
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« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2012, 06:12:53 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

James, step away from the keyboard for a moment and ask yourself, "Does the Church really still sanction slavery?".  When you realize the answer is NO, then you'll come to the understanding that it doesn't make damn difference if a few OC's might believe it's OK.  And when you realize that, then you'll come to the conclusion that you ain't gonna change their minds by ranting about it on an obscure online forum.  What's the point, really?  People will believe what they want and pounding away on a keyboard rarely, if ever, changes minds.  But, here's my prediction for this thread.  People will continue to choose to get riled up over nothing.  It'll go on for at least two more pages before the discussion no longer has anything to do with when the Moldovan church owned slaves.  It'll be split and end up in Politics.  Finally, absolutely no one will have changed their minds.  If that's your idea of making a difference, then proceed.  
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« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

Fortunately, truth isn't discerned by examining the actions of a group of monks from a particular point of time and the far-flung periphery of Orthodoxy.
It wasn't ajust a group of monks, it was two, and at that time (Phanariote rule) the richest metropolitan sees of the Great Church of Christ plus the dependencies the Holy and God Protected Patriarchies of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem had there.
That they profited off of it doesn't take it out of the periphery. Exploitation of the masses: you should know that, isn't it your usual shtick?
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« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2012, 06:19:13 PM »

 Romania did not get it's independence from the Ottoman Empire until 1877, and slavery was very common throughout the Ottoman Empire.  Poor people were forced to sell their children so the other children would have food to eat.  If it was true that Gypsy slaves were being sold at a monastery, it might have been as a favor to the parents during a time of famine and hardship.  Since the Gypsies were not Christians, there wouldn't be any qualms about the children being raised as Muslims.  Of course these children might have been kidnapped by the gypsies in order to be sold.  Anything is possible. 

Of course the Monastery might have been used by some Muslim slave dealers.  That possibility also exists.  What we shouldn't do though is look at the past with today's eyes and jump to conclusions.   I recall seeing Gypsies begging for money on the streets in Greece.  They were uneducated and had no profession so begging was the only way they could live.  Greece later passed a law  that Gypsy children had to attend school.

As for slavery in general, it  no doubt existed in the Byzantine Empire, and probably the Italian Renaissance as well.  We have to understand that the only difference between a slave and a servant at that time,  would have been that a slave could be sold and a servant was not.  Other than that, there would be no difference in their position since  the servant was not paid anything and only given some food to eat, a place to sleep and some clothes. 

As for the Ottoman Empire, it did not banish slavery until the nineteen twenties.  In the eighteen hundreds when the Muslim Circassians were thrown out of Russia, the slave markets of Istanbul were so packed with  beautiful Circassian women, (who were always preferred for the harems), that the Turks began throwing out  their black slaves.

Anyway here's something about white slavery from Wikipedea: 


Arabs also enslaved Europeans. According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary corsairs, who were vassals of the Ottoman Empire, and sold as slaves between the 16th and 19th centuries. These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages from Italy, Spain, Portugal and also from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland. The impact of these attacks was devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. Pirate raids discouraged settlement along the coast until the 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
   
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« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2012, 06:22:22 PM »

Maybe they were selling them as Indulgences. Where like you buy 2 and then set them free and that helps cover your sins for the toll houses  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2012, 06:30:42 PM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

In the biography of Saint Nektarios, he became so upset when he found out a peasant woman was being forced to sell one of her children so she could feed the other ones, and not have them die of starvation, that he managed to get the money to give her.  I'm writing this to show the desperation that existed in parts of the world at certain times so that we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on our very, very  limited experiences. Sad
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« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »

Maybe they were selling them as Indulgences. Where like you buy 2 and then set them free and that helps cover your sins for the toll houses  Grin

That's funny! laugh
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« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2012, 07:16:14 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2012, 07:17:03 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

Impending social collapse and Chinese hegemony?
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« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2012, 07:18:16 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
Further inquire into OCA. They need Evangelicals to help with the war efforts.
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2012, 07:20:50 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

Impending social collapse and Chinese hegemony?
No, the end of trading people like cattle.
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2012, 07:21:22 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
Further inquire into OCA. They need Evangelicals to help with the war efforts.

War efforts?
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2012, 07:22:29 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

I'd dispute that conservatism is an "ideology," but more substantively, have you heard of Communism or Nazism by any chance?
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2012, 07:33:12 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

I'd dispute that conservatism is an "ideology," but more substantively, have you heard of Communism or Nazism by any chance?
You're ripe for angliochianism.
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« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2012, 07:40:20 PM »

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".

I'd dispute that conservatism is an "ideology," but more substantively, have you heard of Communism or Nazism by any chance?
You're ripe for angliochianism.

OK. Sure, whatever. You clearly have your little axe to grind, and that's fine, but I am curious: what do you mean when you call yourself "some kind of Orthodox"?
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« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2012, 07:51:32 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

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« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2012, 08:12:12 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

But you're forgetting that the Orthodoxy of today is better than what they had back then. They were in the Western Captivity, and St. Vladimir's has restored the lost gospel.
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« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2012, 08:20:10 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

Impending social collapse and Chinese hegemony?
No, the end of trading people like cattle.
The French First Republic invaded Haiti to reimpose it.

Btw, your source:
Quote
The slaveowners separated Roma couples when selling one of the spouses. This practice was banned by Constantine Mavrocordatos in 1763 and discouraged by the Orthodox Church, which decreed in 1766 that "although they are called gypsies [i.e. slaves], the Lord created them and it is indecent to separate them like cattle". Nevertheless, splitting married spouses was still common in 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania#Marriage_regulations_and_cases_of_sexual_abuse

I also note that it is odd that your poster is in Latin letters, when Romanian did not switch from Cyrillic until a decade later.
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« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »

Augustin's schtick gets tiring quick. Hey, that rhymes!  Wink
Further inquire into OCA. They need Evangelicals to help with the war efforts.
btw, it was your friends the Evangelicals who successfully waged the wage against the trading of people like cattle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Cv5P9H9qU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBjvQ7GN47I&feature=related
not your French "enlightenment."  In fact, your "enlightenment" promoted chattel slavery as the "natural order" on an unprecedented scale.
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« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2012, 08:32:31 PM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
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« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2012, 09:08:28 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
What time period are we talking here when we say "french enlightenment"?

I see a gradual movement toward such values produced by a number of social and economic processes. Look at Constantinople during its talks with the west before 1453. Not exactly a bunch of pitchfork-waving lunatics.

The East was turned into a backward slum by the Ottomans and friends, which put an end to such social progress there and was later explained as "maintaining the truth", I.E. the conservatism you were talking about. There's a reason why books were still being hand-written in 18th century russia. And it isn't because of the "preservation of tradition".
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« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2012, 09:12:12 PM »

Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.
Maybe you are having a translation issue, translating something from Romanian into English. Serfdom still existed in Russia at the time of your pamphlet, and serfdom is basically medieval white slavery, as I understand it.

I have a hard time understanding the difference between slavery and serfdom, anyway. Plantation masters didn't care about blacks' marriages like they were just animals and split up black families, whereas Russian serf owners didn't really get into the racial ideology and understood the serfs were still people and would respect marriages generally is my impression.

My point is that what you are describing probably isn't so unusual for people aware of the Russian serfdom system. In the case you described, it sounds like gypsy serfs. Except that maybe you have found a Romanian word that sounds like slaves in English.

Now is that good, does that make it OK? No. And I think you are making a good point. The Old Testament makes a major point of the Israelites' move from Egyptian slavery to freedom. Basically, a people going from slavery to freedom is the idea of Passover, which we find in our idea of it being fulfilled in the move from slavery to sin and death to freedom in life and following God.

So you are making a good point that a big part of the Church during the serf times in Russia, and a big part of American Christian protestants in the southern states and those in the North who agreed with it, had blindness. Before them was the example of the Israelites' path to freedom, and yet the guardians of slavery and serfdom in the US and imperial Russia were spiritually blind that they were part of a system of spiritual imprisonment.

The liberation from slavery and serfdom was a jubilee.
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« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2012, 09:14:44 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
What time period are we talking here when we say "french enlightenment"?

I see a gradual movement toward such values produced by a number of social and economic processes. Look at Constantinople during its talks with the west before 1453. Not exactly a bunch of pitchfork-waving lunatics.

The East was turned into a backward slum by the Ottomans and friends, which put an end to such social progress there and was later explained as "maintaining the truth", I.E. the conservatism you were talking about. There's a reason why books were still being hand-written in 18th century russia. And it isn't because of the "preservation of tradition".

Stop complicating this discussion with your complexities and your shades of grey.
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« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2012, 09:18:20 PM »

serfdom is basically medieval white slavery, as I understand it.
You misunderstand it. Serfs had it bad by our standards of living, but for their day, especially when they really got their communes (in the pre-20th century sense of the word) going, things weren't too bad by medieval standards.

The problem is, those medieval standards stayed a few hundred years too long. Because Russia was junk land with no exports and a backwards, impotent aristocracy settled from un-successful steppe nomads, mongolians, drop-out europeans and the like.

Edit: Let's not forget the Vikings (slavs). Although most vikings learned to settle down successfully. They had an O.K. thing going on for a while in Kiev, until the successful steppe nomads made them go north into aforementioned junk land.
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« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 09:42:12 PM »

Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.
Maybe you are having a translation issue, translating something from Romanian into English. Serfdom still existed in Russia at the time of your pamphlet, and serfdom is basically medieval white slavery, as I understand it.

I have a hard time understanding the difference between slavery and serfdom, anyway. Plantation masters didn't care about blacks' marriages like they were just animals and split up black families, whereas Russian serf owners didn't really get into the racial ideology and understood the serfs were still people and would respect marriages generally is my impression.

My point is that what you are describing probably isn't so unusual for people aware of the Russian serfdom system. In the case you described, it sounds like gypsy serfs. Except that maybe you have found a Romanian word that sounds like slaves in English.

Now is that good, does that make it OK? No. And I think you are making a good point. The Old Testament makes a major point of the Israelites' move from Egyptian slavery to freedom. Basically, a people going from slavery to freedom is the idea of Passover, which we find in our idea of it being fulfilled in the move from slavery to sin and death to freedom in life and following God.

So you are making a good point that a big part of the Church during the serf times in Russia, and a big part of American Christian protestants in the southern states and those in the North who agreed with it, had blindness. Before them was the example of the Israelites' path to freedom, and yet the guardians of slavery and serfdom in the US and imperial Russia were spiritually blind that they were part of a system of spiritual imprisonment.

The liberation from slavery and serfdom was a jubilee.
No, they weren't serfs, they were "robi/sclavi" (slaves). Romanian society knew serfdom too. It had a few terms for it, since it came in different shades: "serbi", "jeleri", "vecini", "rumani" "iobagi". Only the Gypsies (and they were Orthodox since the 14th century at the very least ) and some Tatars were slaves proper.
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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2012, 10:27:41 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

The French Enlightenment also led to the French 'terror' in which every second person killed was a priest, and to Napoleon.  It also led to Marxism and  international communism and gave rise to the opposing ideology of nationalism with a world drenched in blood.   Need I go on.... Sad
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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2012, 10:51:12 PM »

This might shock a few people here, but an English visitor to Russia found the living conditions of the Russian serfs way better than those of the Irish...and let's not forget Ireland was part of the British Isles and part of its empire. 

Now to go further into this since Britain was part of the 'Enlightenment'.  There is a book by the Smithsonian called: Angels and Apes, and it depicts the caricatures of the Irish as they were perceived in Britain.  They were considered white apes, and many were sent to the Caribbean as 'slaves'.  The Irish famine was also genocide when one considers that  five thousand pounds of butter alone was being shipped each week by the Irish Protestant nobles to England, while the Catholics were starving because the potato, which was their only means of sustenance had rotted away. 

I didn't write this to undermine the British, only to present the facts.  They were probably still more humane than the rest of the world in that day and age.  Smiley

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« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2012, 10:54:53 PM »


I don't regard a discussion of slavery in the Christian Church as trolling. There are also problematic passages in Scripture, which non-Christians have brought up against Christianity. There is the approach of trying to cover things up, but then there is another approach of understanding why and how these mistakes were made and to make an effort to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
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« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2012, 11:00:46 PM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
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« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2012, 12:05:35 AM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
Many things you didn't know.
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« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2012, 12:31:57 AM »

Wheat and tares.  The disturbing part is that some overlook or defend the tares because they are "Orthodox" tares.  A lot of sick stuff has been done in the Orthodox Church in Christ's name and continues to be done.  The truth is it can all be pretty ugly sometimes.  But Augustin, I still think the Orthodox Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth.   Smiley
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« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2012, 03:37:44 AM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
This is an interesting point. In Transylvania, the Latin script was used earlier (about 100 yrs. earlier?)  than in other parts of Romania due to the influence of the Hapsburgs and the Greek Catholic Church. But in any case, is it for certain that this monastery, St. Elias monastery was an Eastern Orthodox monastery and not a Greek Catholic monastery?
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« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2012, 03:56:20 AM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
This is an interesting point. In Transylvania, the Latin script was used earlier (about 100 yrs. earlier?)  than in other parts of Romania due to the influence of the Hapsburgs and the Greek Catholic Church. But in any case, is it for certain that this monastery, St. Elias monastery was an Eastern Orthodox monastery and not a Greek Catholic monastery?

There's nothing on the poster to say either way, though I'm not sure it matters that much. Augustin is correct in his facts even if he seems to be concluding something other from those than what I would. I see very little difference between slavery and western European medieval serfdom (I honestly know much less about the Russian variety but Romanian 'feudalism' was so different from the western variety that I'm not sure the word is applied correctly), yet western monasteries had serfs. The fact is that at various points in history various parts, often large parts, of the Church, both east and west (and even Protestants) have engaged in various practices that should be condemned - including slavery. It doesn't to my mind invalidate the Church so much as validate the idea that we are all sinners.

James
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« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
Many things you didn't know.
unlike some people  Roll Eyes I'm willing to learn. Is there something to learn here about Orthodox support for the Latin alphabet?
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« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2012, 11:23:51 AM »

Frankly, this is a ridiculous thread based on something that occurred 160 years ago that NO LONGER goes on.  Is there nothing we won't argue and fuss over?  Good Lord... Roll Eyes  

The only thing ridiculous about this thread is the number of people who have posted in it that are willing to just dismiss the actions of monastics, based on the fact that it happened a long, long time ago.  If morality does not change subject to cultural whims, then you should be just as against it happening 160 years ago as you would be against it happening today.  If it does not change subject to cultural whims, I encourage you to join AXIOS.

James, step away from the keyboard for a moment and ask yourself, "Does the Church really still sanction slavery?".  When you realize the answer is NO, then you'll come to the understanding that it doesn't make damn difference if a few OC's might believe it's OK.  And when you realize that, then you'll come to the conclusion that you ain't gonna change their minds by ranting about it on an obscure online forum.  What's the point, really?  People will believe what they want and pounding away on a keyboard rarely, if ever, changes minds.  But, here's my prediction for this thread.  People will continue to choose to get riled up over nothing.  It'll go on for at least two more pages before the discussion no longer has anything to do with when the Moldovan church owned slaves.  It'll be split and end up in Politics.  Finally, absolutely no one will have changed their minds.  If that's your idea of making a difference, then proceed.  

I needed this too. I wished you posted this a lot sooner, you would have saved me from much grief.
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« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2012, 11:41:23 AM »


I don't regard a discussion of slavery in the Christian Church as trolling. There are also problematic passages in Scripture, which non-Christians have brought up against Christianity. There is the approach of trying to cover things up, but then there is another approach of understanding why and how these mistakes were made and to make an effort to avoid similar mistakes in the future.

I posted this after the post in question.
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« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2012, 12:04:58 PM »

I just don't see how my original thought was wrong on the topic, at the beginning of the thread.

If they owned slaves, we today believe they were wrong for exploiting others.

There have been many religions and cultures all through the world who have all done things we find wrong to other people.  This is from people engaging in molestation, to churches that validate polygamy, to churches that burn brands into their congregation, to in this case an Orthodox Monastery trading slaves.

It does not represent the entire embodiment of the Orthodox faith.  The church does not teach us to trade slaves.   What were the monasteries in other parts of the world doing at this time, especially the majority who did not trade in slaves?

Though these people were in communion with the overall church, it did not make what they did right.   I think everybody can agree that there has been many wrongs by branches of all religions, including some of the parts of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I think these Eastern Orthodox monastics were wrong to trade slaves, and they exploited people or were delusional.  That doesn't say anything about the Orthodox church as a whole though.  I think "they just sinned".   Plain and simple.
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« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2012, 01:42:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

That is selfish, stupid, and ignorant game, to compare one genocide to another which mutually degrades the suffering of both by making it a urinating contest (censored to appease the mods). Grow up.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
This is an interesting point. In Transylvania, the Latin script was used earlier (about 100 yrs. earlier?)  than in other parts of Romania due to the influence of the Hapsburgs and the Greek Catholic Church. But in any case, is it for certain that this monastery, St. Elias monastery was an Eastern Orthodox monastery and not a Greek Catholic monastery?

There's nothing on the poster to say either way, though I'm not sure it matters that much. Augustin is correct in his facts even if he seems to be concluding something other from those than what I would. I see very little difference between slavery and western European medieval serfdom (I honestly know much less about the Russian variety but Romanian 'feudalism' was so different from the western variety that I'm not sure the word is applied correctly), yet western monasteries had serfs. The fact is that at various points in history various parts, often large parts, of the Church, both east and west (and even Protestants) have engaged in various practices that should be condemned - including slavery. It doesn't to my mind invalidate the Church so much as validate the idea that we are all sinners.

James

How can something be condemned when being a serf was the only means of livlihood for the majority of the people.  Was there any difference between a serf and a servant?  Do you think a servant could just leave a place, and go out looking for a job somewhere else, other than joining the king's army and becoming a mercenary? 

In Britain which was by far more advanced and civilized than other lands, if a woman was left without a reference, she was forced into prostitution.  London was packed with prostitutes.  If Christian women in the Middle and Near East didn't have dowry's, they too were forced into prostition and this was not just during the time of Saint Nicholas, it existed until WWII in most parts of the world.

Were the serfs worse off than (let's say) Carnegie's steel workers in Pittsburgh, who worked twelve hours a day and were allowed only one day off a year; the fourth of July?  When a friend of his went to see his utopia, he said that he now saw hell.  Do you think these men working there were free to get up and leave?  Where would they have worked?  How would their families have survived? Huh


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« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2012, 02:56:22 PM »

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground, but, I would say that we at least did get better over time, in fact, at a faster pace than most other forms of Christianity. One of the things that drew me to Orthodoxy was learning that we were one of the only forms of Christianity that supported the American Civil Rights Movement.
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« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2012, 02:59:35 PM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
Many things you didn't know.
unlike some people  Roll Eyes I'm willing to learn. Is there something to learn here about Orthodox support for the Latin alphabet?
Romance speaking Europe consists mostly of Roman Catholic countries but contains a few Eastern Orthodox countries as well. Romanian scholars have noted the latin origins of their language and thought it was more appropriate to use the latin script.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance-speaking_Europe
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« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2012, 03:00:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

That is selfish, stupid, and ignorant game, to compare one genocide to another which mutually degrades the suffering of both by making it a urinating contest (censored to appease the mods). Grow up.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2012, 03:03:59 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley
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« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2012, 03:06:12 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley

 Huh Huh

Can you translate that into plain, un-coded English?
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« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2012, 03:13:10 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley

 Huh Huh

Can you translate that into plain, un-coded English?



Message #76.
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« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2012, 03:16:59 PM »

Conservatism's stupidity lies in the fact that they oppose all development and change whereas liberalism's stupidity lies in the fact that they desire change so much that they rarely stop to ask themselves if that change is actually good or just as stupid. Conservatives are the aesthetic kind that like to appreciate the old stupidity whereas the liberals are the modernist kind that like to experiment with new forms of stupidity.
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« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2012, 03:32:01 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley

 Huh Huh

Can you translate that into plain, un-coded English?



Message #76.

Okay.  What's the connection?  (I'm sure my lack of clarity over your posts must be a an age-related issue, but I can't help when I was born.  Nor can you.   Grin)
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« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2012, 03:33:20 PM »

Conservatism's stupidity lies in the fact that they oppose all development and change whereas liberalism's stupidity lies in the fact that they desire change so much that they rarely stop to ask themselves if that change is actually good or just as stupid. Conservatives are the aesthetic kind that like to appreciate the old stupidity whereas the liberals are the modernist kind that like to experiment with new forms of stupidity.

Oy vey.

I think that's material for a separate thread--probably in politics, eh?
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« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

Christianity has lived in different cultures and times, and its members being less of Christians and more of people of their time and culture have done horrific things that have no support by the Message of the Gospel that the Church is entrusted to Proclaim to the world.Change permeates human interaction be it social , economic, political, or cultural,yet the Truth of the Gospel Remains the same, time might change people might abuse their religious or political power, culture might change, morality of mankind might devolve or evolve, yet Our Lord Jesus Christ Remains the Same, The Truth Remains the Same, the Church corrects the action of its members not by some philosophy of the world that she learns from, rather simply by being more True to her Lord's Gospel thereby being true to Who she is, the Bride of Christ. It is by remaining true to the Gospel of the Lord that the Church self corrects her members, everything that was done which was evil was a direct result of her members abandoning the message of the Gospel, the Truth of the Gospel.

The Solution has always been the same, be transformed truly in Christ do not conform to the world and its ways. everything can be corrected by being loyal to the Gospel. the greed and evil of unregulated capitalism, the inhuman state machinery of Communism, the horrific practice of slavery, the perversion of truth and tyranny of religious states, and so on... through all these the Church can remain the Light of the World only by remaining Loyal to the unchanging message of the Gospel of The Lord.

The other day I read someone being horrified and yet owed at how the christian man never flinched when he was being presented with the tiny knife he was going to be decapitated with... wondering what was going on in his mind at the time.. and this made me think of all the other situations where you are asulted by the knowledge that those who are about to decapitate you or cut off your tongue , burn you alive,etc..were your christian brothers.. what kind of pain is there in knowing that Christ Crucified is supposed to be confessed by such men. I felt more admiration for those Christian martyrs who died by the hand of their brothers for not falling into the trap of hatred by the betrayal of a brother as they accept their death by their hands. but I can not even imagine the pain it must have caused Christ himself. Even the state of Christians today...I wonder...
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« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2012, 03:59:44 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley

 Huh Huh

Can you translate that into plain, un-coded English?



Message #76.

Okay.  What's the connection?  (I'm sure my lack of clarity over your posts must be a an age-related issue, but I can't help when I was born.  Nor can you.   Grin)

I made 4 predictions for this thread in message #76.  I could've made 5 (in which case I would be 4 out of 5), but I would've gotten myself a green dot by PtA.  Anyway, 3 out of 4 of my predictions have come to fruition and I was having a little fun with that fact with some obscure cultural references.  JamesR just scored bigtime (wittingly or unwittingly?) with helping me achieve 100%.
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« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2012, 04:04:47 PM »

3 out of 4?  My 8x10 is close to streaming myrrh.  Awesomeness. Smiley

 Huh Huh

Can you translate that into plain, un-coded English?



Message #76.

Okay.  What's the connection?  (I'm sure my lack of clarity over your posts must be a an age-related issue, but I can't help when I was born.  Nor can you.   Grin)

I made 4 predictions for this thread in message #76.  I could've made 5 (in which case I would be 4 out of 5), but I would've gotten myself a green dot by PtA.  Anyway, 3 out of 4 of my predictions have come to fruition and I was having a little fun with that fact with some obscure cultural references.  JamesR just scored bigtime (wittingly or unwittingly?) with helping me achieve 100%.

Oh.
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« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2012, 04:08:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




I made 4 predictions for this thread in message #76.  I could've made 5 (in which case I would be 4 out of 5), but I would've gotten myself a green dot by PtA.  Anyway, 3 out of 4 of my predictions have come to fruition and I was having a little fun with that fact with some obscure cultural references.  JamesR just scored bigtime (wittingly or unwittingly?) with helping me achieve 100%.
Racism, bigotry, and ignorance is a disease, when left unattended it festers leading to spiritual corruption and then death.  The only way to stop racism, bigotry or ignorance is to confront in openly albeit lovingly with the Truth.  That being said, while I agree that on the surface view an internet forum post will not automatically change a person's heart, I will also say that in all my years on internet forums, I have seen some serious Paul falling off his high horse miracles as people begin to slowly, steadily see the light. However, if no one even bothers to light the lamp and put it on a lampstand, how will those escape the darkness of their ignorance, even if merely self-imposed?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2012, 04:13:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




I made 4 predictions for this thread in message #76.  I could've made 5 (in which case I would be 4 out of 5), but I would've gotten myself a green dot by PtA.  Anyway, 3 out of 4 of my predictions have come to fruition and I was having a little fun with that fact with some obscure cultural references.  JamesR just scored bigtime (wittingly or unwittingly?) with helping me achieve 100%.
However, if no one even bothers to light the lamp and put it on a lampstand, how will those escape the darkness of their ignorance, even if merely self-imposed?

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Read the first half of your sig tag.  Smiley
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« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2012, 04:25:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






I made 4 predictions for this thread in message #76.  I could've made 5 (in which case I would be 4 out of 5), but I would've gotten myself a green dot by PtA.  Anyway, 3 out of 4 of my predictions have come to fruition and I was having a little fun with that fact with some obscure cultural references.  JamesR just scored bigtime (wittingly or unwittingly?) with helping me achieve 100%.
However, if no one even bothers to light the lamp and put it on a lampstand, how will those escape the darkness of their ignorance, even if merely self-imposed?

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Read the first half of your sig tag.  Smiley

I agree, and that signature is there precisely for the reason you've rightfully quoted it, but considering how serious things like slavery and bigotry which are espoused often ignorantly on this forum and in the world, I'd say interjecting some Truth into these kinds of discussion is not kinds of stupid questions about geneologies and law which Paul was referring to.  Essentially, posted that the quell polemics Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2012, 04:45:43 PM »

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 
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« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2012, 05:02:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 


We've already discussed this in PMs.  I do not have the evidence, it is more obscure types of things I have read in the past.  It reasonably stuck with my memory because it troubled my conscience.  However, I regrettably did not commit those particular facts to memory, so I will concede defeat to you.  We have mentioned already an agreement that Christians in Ethiopian owned slaves, including clergies, and that is enough for me.  I will recant my assertion of any monasteries owning slaves because at this point, I can't dig up the evidence. I will say thank you for posting those links, I have read all those books/articles referenced, and they are quite good for Ethiopian history in English Smiley
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2012, 05:07:01 PM »

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?

Why not?  I own pets and treat them like they were human.  Why could I not treat a human that I owned as a brother?  If you understood the kind of slaveray that existed in Orthodox countries, and the rules associated with that slavery, you would see that it would be quite easy to treat a slave as a brother.  In fact, it was required.  Many people back then sold themselves into slavery since being the slave of a good master was far preferable to the "freedom" of freezing and starving to death.  Society back then and there was not the cash based society that we have here, and if you did not work, you did not eat.  Often eating meant selling yourself to someone as a slave.  This also happened when you owed debts that you could not pay.  There was no bankruptsy in many parts of the world.  You paid a person back with your labor until the debt was paid, and you were not "free" to get out of it.
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« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2012, 05:11:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

That is selfish, stupid, and ignorant game, to compare one genocide to another which mutually degrades the suffering of both by making it a urinating contest (censored to appease the mods). Grow up.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Part of growing up is facing the Truth. And the Truth is, the ante-bellum south could not compare with the workers' paradise of Stalin.  And US conservatism, including of the Evangelical type, isn't based on either.
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« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2012, 05:12:22 PM »

Habte, I am all for acknowledging truth however ugly it may be, and also the existence of those that resisted their time and culture as being an important part of history equally worth acknowledging. therefore my responsibility to correct your information. thank you for your recantation and we agree on the rest of it.
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« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Can you really own a human being and treat them as a brother?

Why not?  I own pets and treat them like they were human.  Why could I not treat a human that I owned as a brother?  If you understood the kind of slaveray that existed in Orthodox countries, and the rules associated with that slavery, you would see that it would be quite easy to treat a slave as a brother.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, my point is that there is no ideology more rotten and despicable than "conservatism".
Even the worst of antebellum slavery cannot compare with Stalin's gulag.

That is selfish, stupid, and ignorant game, to compare one genocide to another which mutually degrades the suffering of both by making it a urinating contest (censored to appease the mods). Grow up.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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ABRAHAM LINCOLN, speech, Mar. 17, 1865


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2012, 05:26:33 PM »

Now everyone is yelling about slavery, can't we talk about today's problems? The Roma (gypsies) are not only free now, but they enjoy the famous freedom of movement within the European Union.

But what is the reality? Most of them still live like slaves, but they are controlled by "gypsy barons" who bring them to Western Europe as beggars and thieves. It is a serious problem now in Germany, France and Italy. Often, these incidents also cause a bad reputation for the people who citizens the Roma are, such as Romanians and Bulgarians.

I surely do not wish slavery to be reintroduced, but I wonder: Is this situation really better than doing some farming work on Orthodox monastery grounds?
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« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2012, 05:35:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Now everyone is yelling about slavery, can't we talk about today's problems? The Roma (gypsies) are not only free now, but they enjoy the famous freedom of movement within the European Union.

But what is the reality? Most of them still live like slaves, but they are controlled by "gypsy barons" who bring them to Western Europe as beggars and thieves. It is a serious problem now in Germany, France and Italy. Often, these incidents also cause a bad reputation for the people who citizens the Roma are, such as Romanians and Bulgarians.

I surely do not wish slavery to be reintroduced, but I wonder: Is this situation really better than doing some farming work on Orthodox monastery grounds?

There is a direct cause-effect relationship between the history of slavery both in Eastern Europe and the Americas and also the formation of contemporary race relations.  Simply stated, discrimination against certain groups in the modern world very much has an origin in the history of slavery in the world, and understanding slavery can help us better understand the modern situation.  Agreed.  Further, I think something as been lost in the discussion about slavery.  We have been talking about the living conditions of slaves, even hinting that slaves living on Orthodox monasteries perhaps had the good life.  But where do slaves come from? How do people become slaves? It is not a job interview.  People are captured, kidnapped, and displaced. They are entirely and often forever removed from their family, societal, and cultural homes and forced into a foreign world.  This is the devastating cultural and physical genocide of slavery.  Populations targeted for slave raids were also systematically killed. This is genocide.  When whole peoples are forcefully removed from their culture, this is cultural genocide. When both happen simultaneously, you have a Holocaust.  Whether it is Africans, Indians, or Europeans, slaves had this same devastating experience. 

It is the entire process of slavery which is vile, inhuman, and disgusting.  Honestly, I think it makes the slavers become less-than-human, and the slaves ironically even while so deprived, become all the more human in their survival.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2012, 05:46:35 PM »

We are talking about the Roma people. Where they came from is quite clear - India. How exactly they became slaves is not exactly clear to me.

But foreigners without and ownership often came to be considered to be slaves/serfs of the Emperor, who could sell or offer them to others. That is what happened to the Jews in the Holy Roman Empire, and I would imagine that at least some of the Roma also were given to the monasteries by the Byzantine Emperor. Also, as Punch mentioned, there were cases where people sold themselves into slavery.

Making slaves though war was more of a habit of the Muslims.
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« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2012, 05:48:27 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

The 19th century was either a hit or miss with regard to Orthodoxy.  Of course the world in general was not so hot. 
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« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2012, 06:49:39 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
A good review.
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« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2012, 10:14:08 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.
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« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2012, 10:26:37 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.
They had the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy to build it. Plus some fascists.
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« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2012, 10:28:23 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.
They had the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy to build it. Plus some fascists.

Yes but I really could use a good housekeeper
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« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2012, 10:31:02 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.

Its not too late.  It probably needs redone.  If Augustin is successful at rebuilding the Soviet empire and Eastern bloc, then our people could subcontract their people and we could go from there.  Plus we could all have housekeepers for cheap
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« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2012, 10:37:01 PM »

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground

Shem and Japheth were blessed for covering their father's shame and preserving his dignity. Ham was cursed for exploiting him.
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« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2012, 10:40:10 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.

Its not too late.  It probably needs redone.  If Augustin is successful at rebuilding the Soviet empire and Eastern bloc, then our people could subcontract their people and we could go from there.  Plus we could all have housekeepers for cheap
Well the dissolution of the ussr probably already provided  ou with some cheap Ukrainian housekeeper. Quite fitting for the petit bourgeois lifestyle of the clergy here.  I would also like to pay 40 liturgies for uncle Joe. How much do you charge?
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« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2012, 10:41:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground

Shem and Japheth were blessed for covering their father's shame and preserving his dignity. Ham was cursed for exploiting him.


That wasn't true in 1861 in South Carolina, and its not true in the Orthodox community today.  Racism is not Scriptural.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2012, 10:42:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground

Shem and Japheth were blessed for covering their father's shame and preserving his dignity. Ham was cursed for exploiting him.


That wasn't true in 1861 in South Carolina, and its not true in the Orthodox community today.  Racism is not Scriptural.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2012, 10:50:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground

Shem and Japheth were blessed for covering their father's shame and preserving his dignity. Ham was cursed for exploiting him.


That wasn't true in 1861 in South Carolina, and its not true in the Orthodox community today.  Racism is not Scriptural.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
No use of arguing with evangelicals turned antiochians
or with a communist immigrant to the capitalist world.  I hear that Cuba and North Korea are taking defectors.  Maybe you should look into it, and leave the US to its evangelical natives.
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« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2012, 10:51:40 PM »

*yawn*
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« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2012, 10:53:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

People screw up. I wouldn't try to justify the Church's action at all; in fact, if anything, we are more accountable and guilty since we are supposed to be a moral high ground

Shem and Japheth were blessed for covering their father's shame and preserving his dignity. Ham was cursed for exploiting him.


That wasn't true in 1861 in South Carolina, and its not true in the Orthodox community today.  Racism is not Scriptural.
Who said it was?
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« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2012, 10:54:25 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.

Its not too late.  It probably needs redone.  If Augustin is successful at rebuilding the Soviet empire and Eastern bloc, then our people could subcontract their people and we could go from there.  Plus we could all have housekeepers for cheap
Well the dissolution of the ussr probably already provided  ou with some cheap Ukrainian housekeeper. Quite fitting for the petit bourgeois lifestyle of the clergy here.  I would also like to pay 40 liturgies for uncle Joe. How much do you charge?

Send me the money and I'll let you know how many liturgies are paid for after I ask your priest what you give to your own parish.  BTW my bourgeois lifestyle is not petit.  Do  you have a job?  I can maybe add you to the staff.  
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« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2012, 10:55:33 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.

The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.

Its not too late.  It probably needs redone.  If Augustin is successful at rebuilding the Soviet empire and Eastern bloc, then our people could subcontract their people and we could go from there.  Plus we could all have housekeepers for cheap
Well the dissolution of the ussr probably already provided  ou with some cheap Ukrainian housekeeper. Quite fitting for the petit bourgeois lifestyle of the clergy here.  I would also like to pay 40 liturgies for uncle Joe. How much do you charge?
Less than your average communist theorist in power would extract from the workers.
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« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2012, 10:57:47 PM »

It's still supremely ironic that all those nice prayers of the Euchologion with their sublime anthropology did not achieve what the ideas of the French Enlightenment did.
The ideas that built the Danube Canal.  Too bad they didn't have gypsies to build the Erie Canal.
They had the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy to build it. Plus some fascists.
and a lot of ordinary folk you just got caught up in all the fun.  Did I remember correctly, that you had some relative who ended up in some work camp?
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« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2012, 03:42:40 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 


We've already discussed this in PMs.  I do not have the evidence, it is more obscure types of things I have read in the past.  It reasonably stuck with my memory because it troubled my conscience.  However, I regrettably did not commit those particular facts to memory, so I will concede defeat to you.  We have mentioned already an agreement that Christians in Ethiopian owned slaves, including clergies, and that is enough for me.  I will recant my assertion of any monasteries owning slaves because at this point, I can't dig up the evidence. I will say thank you for posting those links, I have read all those books/articles referenced, and they are quite good for Ethiopian history in English Smiley
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
According to:
http://www.mediaethiopia.com/Views/DebreSultan_Jan06.pdf
"An
Ethiopian manuscript provides an interesting account of the events that took place in the
monastery during the 18th century, it is said that an Egyptian named Ibrahim Giuhari and
his 8 slaves were received as guests by the Ethiopians in 1774 in the monastery and
hereafter claimed ownership of the monastery. Following this event the Copts intervened
in 1820 forcing an Ethiopian priest named Abba Gabra Kristos to hand over the keys of
the monastery to them. In 1838, a plague struck the monastery of Dabre Seltan and led to
the death of all the monks and nuns sparing the lives of only two. The Copts and the
Armenians according to the Anglican Bishop Samuel Gobat took advantage of the
opportunity and burnt down the library from fear of contamination as they claimed. Thus
all valuable documents and manuscripts in the library that could have decisively proved
Ethiopian ownership of the monastery were lost forever. In the same period, the Copts
also rallied a sympathetic Ibrahim Pasha ruling the Holy Land from Egypt to their cause.
In 1850, the Ethiopians finally reseized the keys to the monastery, after having suffered
very harsh treatment (invoking images of the Jim Crow) inflicted upon them especially
by the Armenians whose Patriarchal Vicar according to the British Consul James Finn
“used the poor Abyssinians with great severity, beat them, chained them, and refused
them access to the Church except in rare intervals,” but also by the Copts, who used to
lock them in the monastery and church for prolonged periods."
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« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2012, 04:18:10 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 


We've already discussed this in PMs.  I do not have the evidence, it is more obscure types of things I have read in the past.  It reasonably stuck with my memory because it troubled my conscience.  However, I regrettably did not commit those particular facts to memory, so I will concede defeat to you.  We have mentioned already an agreement that Christians in Ethiopian owned slaves, including clergies, and that is enough for me.  I will recant my assertion of any monasteries owning slaves because at this point, I can't dig up the evidence. I will say thank you for posting those links, I have read all those books/articles referenced, and they are quite good for Ethiopian history in English Smiley
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
According to:
http://www.mediaethiopia.com/Views/DebreSultan_Jan06.pdf
"An
Ethiopian manuscript provides an interesting account of the events that took place in the
monastery during the 18th century, it is said that an Egyptian named Ibrahim Giuhari and
his 8 slaves were received as guests by the Ethiopians in 1774 in the monastery and
hereafter claimed ownership of the monastery. Following this event the Copts intervened
in 1820 forcing an Ethiopian priest named Abba Gabra Kristos to hand over the keys of
the monastery to them.
In 1838, a plague struck the monastery of Dabre Seltan and led to
the death of all the monks and nuns sparing the lives of only two. The Copts and the
Armenians according to the Anglican Bishop Samuel Gobat took advantage of the
opportunity and burnt down the library from fear of contamination as they claimed. Thus
all valuable documents and manuscripts in the library that could have decisively proved
Ethiopian ownership of the monastery were lost forever. In the same period, the Copts
also rallied a sympathetic Ibrahim Pasha ruling the Holy Land from Egypt to their cause.
In 1850, the Ethiopians finally reseized the keys to the monastery, after having suffered
very harsh treatment (invoking images of the Jim Crow) inflicted upon them especially
by the Armenians whose Patriarchal Vicar according to the British Consul James Finn
“used the poor Abyssinians with great severity, beat them, chained them, and refused
them access to the Church except in rare intervals,” but also by the Copts, who used to
lock them in the monastery and church for prolonged periods."


yes if you read the history well , Ibrahim and his slaves were recieved as guests in the monastery, however Ibrahim quickly claimed ownership of the monastery and brought the political influence of the copts then to anex the monastery from Ethiopian ownership into that of the copts. that is what the history is about, not that Ethiopian monastery owned slaves, its that in return for thier hospitality they were betrayed. that conflict still exists to this day about the ownership of the monastery.

as to the other monasteries in Ethiopia none of them ever have been known to own slaves, infact monasteries like Walledeba even refused land granted to them by the monarchs saying they had enough that they are tilling themselves, and the clergies in the cities so long as they are priest were not allowed to own slaves either. the lands they own was tilled by serfs. the Church played a major role in abolishing slavery, and during its existance to make it as humane as possible given the circumstances.
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« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2012, 04:22:22 AM »

It's in Latin Alphabet and it's written in the somehow affected Latinate style of the Transylvanian school. It was a transition period and the Latin Cyrillic and even a mixed alphabet were used side. By side
I didn't know that Romania's Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, was such a hotbed for the Latin alphabet and the Transylvanian school at the time.  Most Church things I've seen printed before 1862 were in Cyrillic.
This is an interesting point. In Transylvania, the Latin script was used earlier (about 100 yrs. earlier?)  than in other parts of Romania due to the influence of the Hapsburgs and the Greek Catholic Church. But in any case, is it for certain that this monastery, St. Elias monastery was an Eastern Orthodox monastery and not a Greek Catholic monastery?

There's nothing on the poster to say either way, though I'm not sure it matters that much. Augustin is correct in his facts even if he seems to be concluding something other from those than what I would. I see very little difference between slavery and western European medieval serfdom (I honestly know much less about the Russian variety but Romanian 'feudalism' was so different from the western variety that I'm not sure the word is applied correctly), yet western monasteries had serfs. The fact is that at various points in history various parts, often large parts, of the Church, both east and west (and even Protestants) have engaged in various practices that should be condemned - including slavery. It doesn't to my mind invalidate the Church so much as validate the idea that we are all sinners.

James

How can something be condemned when being a serf was the only means of livlihood for the majority of the people.  Was there any difference between a serf and a servant?  Do you think a servant could just leave a place, and go out looking for a job somewhere else, other than joining the king's army and becoming a mercenary? 

In Britain which was by far more advanced and civilized than other lands, if a woman was left without a reference, she was forced into prostitution.  London was packed with prostitutes.  If Christian women in the Middle and Near East didn't have dowry's, they too were forced into prostition and this was not just during the time of Saint Nicholas, it existed until WWII in most parts of the world.

Were the serfs worse off than (let's say) Carnegie's steel workers in Pittsburgh, who worked twelve hours a day and were allowed only one day off a year; the fourth of July?  When a friend of his went to see his utopia, he said that he now saw hell.  Do you think these men working there were free to get up and leave?  Where would they have worked?  How would their families have survived? Huh




Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't condemn the institution of serfdom or slavery (and yes serfdom was different to being a servant - it was basically slavery) because the serfs/slaves had no choice? You do realise that's nonsense? Condemning the monasteries keeping serfs doesn't mean asking them to throw them out on their ear to starve, it means asking them to employ people fairly rather than owning other human beings.

James
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« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2012, 09:02:16 AM »

It's anachronistic, that's for sure.

There's plenty of horrific norms and institutions that are perfectly acceptable in today's culture that we can actually try to do something about. Nobody supports slavery or serfdom today, so what's the point of condemning it? Petty feel-goodism, a waste of time, and nothing more than an effort to make the church look bad.

Condemning them assumes you would be any better had you lived back then, and I seriously doubt any of us can make that claim.
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« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2012, 10:18:53 AM »

It's anachronistic, that's for sure.

There's plenty of horrific norms and institutions that are perfectly acceptable in today's culture that we can actually try to do something about. Nobody supports slavery or serfdom today, so what's the point of condemning it? Petty feel-goodism, a waste of time, and nothing more than an effort to make the church look bad.

Condemning them assumes you would be any better had you lived back then, and I seriously doubt any of us can make that claim.

I'm sure the millions of people who find themselves as slaves *today* will take great comfort in your sentiments. 

Read this http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/index.html and *then* tell us if the what I've bolded above is true.  (I'm sure if you do even a very slightly more extensive Google search than I did, you'd find plenty more about modern-day slavery--you know, that thing there's no point condemning because no one supports it--apart from those who own the slaves, that is, and those who let them get away with it Roll Eyes.)
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« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2012, 10:34:13 AM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2012, 10:48:53 AM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James
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« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2012, 12:02:19 PM »

Serfdom is not "just as evil" as slavery. It's evil (at least insofar as it's hereditary), but significantly less evil. A serf is bound to the land, but in other respects is a human being with rights, and his lord actually has significant obligations toward the serf.
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« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2012, 12:37:55 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?
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« Reply #164 on: June 14, 2012, 01:34:40 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

You mean......we shouldn't hold a grudge  Shocked?  You mean......we should actually, maybe...*forgive* people their transgressions  Shocked Shocked?  You mean....we shouldn't hold those alive today accountable for the transgressions of past generations  Shocked Shocked Shocked???  You mean........we should *actually* practice what Christ taught us?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

What are you, anyway......some kind of nut, er, *Christian*??


 Grin
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« Reply #165 on: June 14, 2012, 01:53:05 PM »

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.
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« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2012, 01:58:45 PM »

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.
We are all slaves.
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« Reply #167 on: June 14, 2012, 02:49:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 


We've already discussed this in PMs.  I do not have the evidence, it is more obscure types of things I have read in the past.  It reasonably stuck with my memory because it troubled my conscience.  However, I regrettably did not commit those particular facts to memory, so I will concede defeat to you.  We have mentioned already an agreement that Christians in Ethiopian owned slaves, including clergies, and that is enough for me.  I will recant my assertion of any monasteries owning slaves because at this point, I can't dig up the evidence. I will say thank you for posting those links, I have read all those books/articles referenced, and they are quite good for Ethiopian history in English Smiley
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
According to:
http://www.mediaethiopia.com/Views/DebreSultan_Jan06.pdf
"An
Ethiopian manuscript provides an interesting account of the events that took place in the
monastery during the 18th century, it is said that an Egyptian named Ibrahim Giuhari and
his 8 slaves were received as guests by the Ethiopians in 1774 in the monastery and
hereafter claimed ownership of the monastery. Following this event the Copts intervened
in 1820 forcing an Ethiopian priest named Abba Gabra Kristos to hand over the keys of
the monastery to them.
In 1838, a plague struck the monastery of Dabre Seltan and led to
the death of all the monks and nuns sparing the lives of only two. The Copts and the
Armenians according to the Anglican Bishop Samuel Gobat took advantage of the
opportunity and burnt down the library from fear of contamination as they claimed. Thus
all valuable documents and manuscripts in the library that could have decisively proved
Ethiopian ownership of the monastery were lost forever. In the same period, the Copts
also rallied a sympathetic Ibrahim Pasha ruling the Holy Land from Egypt to their cause.
In 1850, the Ethiopians finally reseized the keys to the monastery, after having suffered
very harsh treatment (invoking images of the Jim Crow) inflicted upon them especially
by the Armenians whose Patriarchal Vicar according to the British Consul James Finn
“used the poor Abyssinians with great severity, beat them, chained them, and refused
them access to the Church except in rare intervals,” but also by the Copts, who used to
lock them in the monastery and church for prolonged periods."


yes if you read the history well , Ibrahim and his slaves were recieved as guests in the monastery, however Ibrahim quickly claimed ownership of the monastery and brought the political influence of the copts then to anex the monastery from Ethiopian ownership into that of the copts. that is what the history is about, not that Ethiopian monastery owned slaves, its that in return for thier hospitality they were betrayed. that conflict still exists to this day about the ownership of the monastery.

as to the other monasteries in Ethiopia none of them ever have been known to own slaves, infact monasteries like Walledeba even refused land granted to them by the monarchs saying they had enough that they are tilling themselves, and the clergies in the cities so long as they are priest were not allowed to own slaves either. the lands they own was tilled by serfs. the Church played a major role in abolishing slavery, and during its existance to make it as humane as possible given the circumstances.
However, according to the last sentence, the Armenian Patriarchal vicar beat and chained the Ethiopians and the Copts locked them in the monastery?
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« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2012, 03:04:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A synopsis of slavery and its abolition in Ethiopia by an Eritrean brother.

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/01/ethiopian-emperors-and-slavery/

http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/02/abolition-of-slavery-in-ethiopia/

having said that,

Habte, I would like you to name the Ethiopian Monastery that owned those ' multitude of slaves' you mentioned.

please no side stepping the issue by saying Christians citizens owned slaves, the government owned slaves, the feudal lords own slaves, all these are true no disagreement from me.

what I want to know is this new history I hear from you that the Monasteries owned slaves. please name which monastery did so by siting the book or article properly that you got your fact from. you know I can read Amharic or English so don't worry about the language of your source.


Name of monastery.......

Purpose of ownership of the slaves by said monastery........


Thank you in advance, please keep in mind what I said about sticking to the question ...IE name of the Monastery or monasteries.... and the purpose of ownership of the slaves.....


 


We've already discussed this in PMs.  I do not have the evidence, it is more obscure types of things I have read in the past.  It reasonably stuck with my memory because it troubled my conscience.  However, I regrettably did not commit those particular facts to memory, so I will concede defeat to you.  We have mentioned already an agreement that Christians in Ethiopian owned slaves, including clergies, and that is enough for me.  I will recant my assertion of any monasteries owning slaves because at this point, I can't dig up the evidence. I will say thank you for posting those links, I have read all those books/articles referenced, and they are quite good for Ethiopian history in English Smiley
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
According to:
http://www.mediaethiopia.com/Views/DebreSultan_Jan06.pdf
"An
Ethiopian manuscript provides an interesting account of the events that took place in the
monastery during the 18th century, it is said that an Egyptian named Ibrahim Giuhari and
his 8 slaves were received as guests by the Ethiopians in 1774 in the monastery and
hereafter claimed ownership of the monastery. Following this event the Copts intervened
in 1820 forcing an Ethiopian priest named Abba Gabra Kristos to hand over the keys of
the monastery to them.
In 1838, a plague struck the monastery of Dabre Seltan and led to
the death of all the monks and nuns sparing the lives of only two. The Copts and the
Armenians according to the Anglican Bishop Samuel Gobat took advantage of the
opportunity and burnt down the library from fear of contamination as they claimed. Thus
all valuable documents and manuscripts in the library that could have decisively proved
Ethiopian ownership of the monastery were lost forever. In the same period, the Copts
also rallied a sympathetic Ibrahim Pasha ruling the Holy Land from Egypt to their cause.
In 1850, the Ethiopians finally reseized the keys to the monastery, after having suffered
very harsh treatment (invoking images of the Jim Crow) inflicted upon them especially
by the Armenians whose Patriarchal Vicar according to the British Consul James Finn
“used the poor Abyssinians with great severity, beat them, chained them, and refused
them access to the Church except in rare intervals,” but also by the Copts, who used to
lock them in the monastery and church for prolonged periods."


yes if you read the history well , Ibrahim and his slaves were recieved as guests in the monastery, however Ibrahim quickly claimed ownership of the monastery and brought the political influence of the copts then to anex the monastery from Ethiopian ownership into that of the copts. that is what the history is about, not that Ethiopian monastery owned slaves, its that in return for thier hospitality they were betrayed. that conflict still exists to this day about the ownership of the monastery.

as to the other monasteries in Ethiopia none of them ever have been known to own slaves, infact monasteries like Walledeba even refused land granted to them by the monarchs saying they had enough that they are tilling themselves, and the clergies in the cities so long as they are priest were not allowed to own slaves either. the lands they own was tilled by serfs. the Church played a major role in abolishing slavery, and during its existance to make it as humane as possible given the circumstances.
However, according to the last sentence, the Armenian Patriarchal vicar beat and chained the Ethiopians and the Copts locked them in the monastery?

stanely those that were chained and beaten locked etc were the Ethiopian Monks. has nothing to do with slavery rather it was very much a turf war of sorts, still a sad part of our history, however nothing new if you look back in the human history of the church.. dont think I am undermining what happend , not by a long shot , rather I prefer to keep things in perspective of time and place. and when we are not squibbling over certain things , we are loving where it matters most we are one, thus we can and will correct our mistakes in due time God willing. Smiley
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« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2012, 04:32:57 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

You mean......we shouldn't hold a grudge  Shocked?  You mean......we should actually, maybe...*forgive* people their transgressions  Shocked Shocked?  You mean....we shouldn't hold those alive today accountable for the transgressions of past generations  Shocked Shocked Shocked???  You mean........we should *actually* practice what Christ taught us?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

What are you, anyway......some kind of nut, er, *Christian*??


 Grin

No, no. Don't be ridiculous. This only applies to Orthodox people. We still hold all Roman Catholics accountable for the atrocities of the Fourth Crusade, rest assured. What forgiveness can there be for barbarian heretics?
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« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2012, 04:33:37 PM »

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.
We are all slaves.

Shhhh. Google doesn't want them to know.
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« Reply #171 on: June 14, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

You mean......we shouldn't hold a grudge  Shocked?  You mean......we should actually, maybe...*forgive* people their transgressions  Shocked Shocked?  You mean....we shouldn't hold those alive today accountable for the transgressions of past generations  Shocked Shocked Shocked???  You mean........we should *actually* practice what Christ taught us?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

What are you, anyway......some kind of nut, er, *Christian*??


 Grin

No, no. Don't be ridiculous. This only applies to Orthodox people. We still hold all Roman Catholics accountable for the atrocities of the Fourth Crusade, rest assured. What forgiveness can there be for barbarian heretics?

 Grin


Unfortunately, I've come across a few too many Orthodox who seriously think that way.  (Not to mention a few too many Catholics who hold grudges against the Orthodox.)
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #172 on: June 14, 2012, 04:57:36 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

You mean......we shouldn't hold a grudge  Shocked?  You mean......we should actually, maybe...*forgive* people their transgressions  Shocked Shocked?  You mean....we shouldn't hold those alive today accountable for the transgressions of past generations  Shocked Shocked Shocked???  You mean........we should *actually* practice what Christ taught us?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

What are you, anyway......some kind of nut, er, *Christian*??


 Grin

No, no. Don't be ridiculous. This only applies to Orthodox people. We still hold all Roman Catholics accountable for the atrocities of the Fourth Crusade, rest assured. What forgiveness can there be for barbarian heretics?

 Grin


Unfortunately, I've come across a few too many Orthodox who seriously think that way.  (Not to mention a few too many Catholics who hold grudges against the Orthodox.)

The former are mislead, the latter just insane. Smiley
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« Reply #173 on: June 14, 2012, 05:16:06 PM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

You mean......we shouldn't hold a grudge  Shocked?  You mean......we should actually, maybe...*forgive* people their transgressions  Shocked Shocked?  You mean....we shouldn't hold those alive today accountable for the transgressions of past generations  Shocked Shocked Shocked???  You mean........we should *actually* practice what Christ taught us?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

What are you, anyway......some kind of nut, er, *Christian*??


 Grin

No, no. Don't be ridiculous. This only applies to Orthodox people. We still hold all Roman Catholics accountable for the atrocities of the Fourth Crusade, rest assured. What forgiveness can there be for barbarian heretics?

 Grin


Unfortunately, I've come across a few too many Orthodox who seriously think that way.  (Not to mention a few too many Catholics who hold grudges against the Orthodox.)

The former are mislead, the latter just insane. Smiley

Phew....that's a relief!
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« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2012, 06:26:49 PM »

We are talking about the Roma people. Where they came from is quite clear - India. How exactly they became slaves is not exactly clear to me.

But foreigners without and ownership often came to be considered to be slaves/serfs of the Emperor, who could sell or offer them to others. That is what happened to the Jews in the Holy Roman Empire, and I would imagine that at least some of the Roma also were given to the monasteries by the Byzantine Emperor. Also, as Punch mentioned, there were cases where people sold themselves into slavery.

Making slaves though war was more of a habit of the Muslims.

I never heard of the Jews being slaves in the Byzantine Empire, rather I thought they were quite free to practice their faith... Although I'm sure they were taxed.   When the  Crusaders first  saw a temple in Constantinople that wasn't dedicated to our Triune God, they were so appalled that they set fire to it and burned down part of the city.  Jews really didn't have much of a problem with Christians in that part of the world until later on when they befriended the Ottomans. 

On a whole, the Byzantine Emperors were quite just even in war, with the exception of Basil the Bulgar killer.  He blinded the whole Bulgarian army with the exception of one man in a hundred who was allowed to keep one of his eyes so he could lead the rest back home.  The blinding stopped the attacks on the Empire, but I don't think the  Bulgarians have ever forgiven the Greeks.  As for slavery, the Swedish prisoners of Peter the Great were the ones that kept his city spot less.  Now if that's not slavery then what is?

I know the Christians kept slaves in Europe, probably up until the Enlightenment, I mean who were those little black boys that held up the trains of the noblewomen if not slaves?  And then again, were they slaves or servant boys that were given an occupation and food to eat?   Perhaps they were eunuchs?  It was a cruel world out there.

As for the American South, their greatest sin was that they didn't edify the blacks  because if they did so, they would have had to accept them as being human and would not  have been able to keep them as slaves.  The blacks continued their pagan rituals and witchcraft and when one minister tried to edify them and told them to stop throwing hexes under their neighbors doorstep, they all began to giggle. 

If the saints are right, and evil permeates everything and everyone around it, this would account for the cruelty that existed and for the destruction that came about because of the civil war.   Shocked
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« Reply #175 on: June 14, 2012, 07:02:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This really is a moot point.  Slaves were pretty much the Pokemon cards of the day.  Atrocities were committed in the past.  In those days most took part due to group think and only a few spoke out.  Even I bought and sold Pokemon back in the late 20th Century.  But I learned the errors of my ways and have moved on.  Pokemon is an outdated institution.  One day slavery will be the same.

Grossly insensitive and I know you know better than that Sad

Pokemon cards were a fashion, slavery was an institution.  Pokemon cards are objects, slaves were people.



 The blacks continued their pagan rituals and witchcraft and when one minister tried to edify them and told them to stop throwing hexes under their neighbors doorstep, they all began to giggle.  


I am sorry, I know you are trying to help by being nice here, but I have to comment on this.  Black folks in America have perhaps been the MOST Christian, seemingly the ONLY people who truly lived the Christian life of turning the other cheek, and have had the most substantive faith in our Lord of perhaps any folks since the Apostles.  Black American Christianity is the only Protestant denomination I absolutely respect at all levels, because black folks built their institutions facing the absolute devil on a daily basis.  What is worse, black folks trust Jesus more than any of us, because the supposed Christians who read the Bible were the people perpetrating such degrading evil against an entire race of people, and yet black folks didn't hold that against Jesus.  That is admirable.  So the comment you just made seems a bit out of touch with the historicity of the situation.  A for effort, but still, those words you posted put a bad taste in my mouth  Huh

As has often been the case, it was the slaves and the down trodden  who have been the most sincere Christians in the American experience, and its the establishment that has been the hypocrites Jesus warned us about.

Some of the paternalistic, hypocritical, and nonsensical dribble I keep reading on this thread reminds me of what our grandmothers taught us. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."  Or as we in Rastafari say, "If a fish woulda keep 'im big yap shut, 'im neva 'a been caught in the first place!" 

It is enlightening to say the least to hear some of these opinions, but also a bit disheartening.  Out of the mercy of God, I know many folks don't truly mean half of what they are saying, but sometimes reading this kind of stuff really hurts my feelings in a general way.  Of course, I got a lot of ugly family drama going on right now, so I am also a bit sensitive about my expectations of my fellow humans.  For that I apologize in advance if I have been badgering or bullying people here.  I respect and love you all, just somethings I feel like I have to speak on them.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #176 on: June 15, 2012, 03:12:52 AM »

I realize there is slavery today. The most tragic of all being child sex slavery.

I'm talking about slavery run by the Church, or Orthodox Christians.

To me this is black and white - you either condemn the institution of slavery no matter who the slave owners are (including anyone Orthodox) or you're tacitly condoning it. When I say we should condemn it I am not saying I would have behaved differently had I lived in that time and place - I hope that I would have, but how could I know? - but simply saying that it is wrong, it was wrong then and it remains wrong. Slavery is an evil no matter what you call it (serfdom is just as evil) or who practices it. I'm surprised (and not pleasantly so) to see that some here appear to think that sweeping it under the carpet is preferable to criticising our forebears in the Church for practicing it. It isn't.

James

So, for all of time until Kingdom come, we are going to criticize our forebears for everything they ever did that was wrong, or otherwise we condone it? Roll Eyes

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm saying it's pointless to continue wringing our hands about it and condemning people for things that happened centuries ago, things we have learned our lessons about and moved on from. There is plenty of evil in today's world to worry about. If any currently-living Orthodox are holding slaves or serfs, by all means, let's gang up on them.

Both the perpetrators and the victims are long dead. Our forefathers have died and have seen God's judgment for what they have done. What do we have to say about it?

As I said: it's feel-goodism. To condemn our forefathers makes us feel better about ourselves and helps us assuage our irrational guilt over it, but it serves no actual purpose, since no monasteries keep slaves or serfs in today's world. People need to build a bridge and get over it. All it does is pleasure the puffed-up and morally self-superior anti-religious types who get their jollies making religious people look bad. Adopting an aw-shucks response gains no street cred with them, it just gives them some self-satisfaction till they uncover some other historical transgression to rail about.

Things happened. We learned from it. Move on and quit fighting yesteryear's battles. No need to deny that it happened, but there's no reason to bring it up either, or go on and on about it. I stand by the very apt analogy of Noah's sons.

And where does this end? Shall we as a species also be flogging ourselves because our Homo sapiens forefathers killed off all the Homo neanderthalensis?

I said condemn slavery not condemn people. You seem to misunderstand what I was saying completely. If we condemn slavery absolutely then we must perforce say that the monasteries were wrong to won slaves. I don't think it reflects on the whole Church as pillar of the truth as Augustin seems to but it's certainly wrong. I wasn't talking condemning those from years gone by but about condemning the institution of slavery. The thing that was worrying me in this thread was the morally relativistic idea promulgated by some that seemed to  be 'it was a cultural thing'. This is no excuse at all. I'm not saying we should beat ourselves up or wring our hands for all time - I'm saying that we should admit that it has happened and say it was wrong, not brush it under the carpet.

James
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« Reply #177 on: June 15, 2012, 03:38:26 AM »

Serfdom is not "just as evil" as slavery. It's evil (at least insofar as it's hereditary), but significantly less evil. A serf is bound to the land, but in other respects is a human being with rights, and his lord actually has significant obligations toward the serf.

That would depend on what level of serfdom, in what country and at what time. Some serfs had more rights than others as there was a hierarchy even within serfdom - those at the bottom suffered conditions almost indistinguishable from slavery. Even the top levels of serfs, however did not have the same rights as free men, as you appear to be implying is the case (excepting that they were bound to the land). As for the 'obligations' of the lord, you're rather overplaying those as well and given that serfs with a bad lord could suffer despite the supposed obligations whereas slaves with good owners might be given much better conditions than the norm I don't see any significant difference between the two practices. In both cases human beings are effectively owned by and forced to work for another - that's evil whatever the living conditions.

James
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« Reply #178 on: June 15, 2012, 03:50:24 AM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  
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« Reply #179 on: June 15, 2012, 05:42:01 AM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
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« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2012, 06:09:11 AM »

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« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2012, 11:39:37 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP
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« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2012, 11:46:09 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP

Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

What is unclear?

If you were a slave, I doubt you would put such a happy spin on that passage. You wouldn't have the power of life and death over your master.
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« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2012, 11:51:46 AM »

Quote
Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."
Thats right. It does NOT say, masters it is good to own slaves or Slavery is a good thing. Just another example of connecting the dots where none exist.

PP
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« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2012, 11:55:20 AM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?
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« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

Quote
I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters
because that was the law then and the commandment was outlining how these folks should act. Especially in light of the slave uprisings leading to mass death.

By being Christ to their masters, they could lead them to Him (which happened on more than one occasion).

I really dont see how anyone could use those verses and say the bible promoted slavery.

PP

Because it says, "Slaves, obey your masters."

What is unclear?

If you were a slave, I doubt you would put such a happy spin on that passage. You wouldn't have the power of life and death over your master.

I'm a little confused.  Are you saying that the Bible *does* promote slavery because it says that?  My understanding is that that is not the case, but rather it was much more as primuspilus wrote above.
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« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2012, 12:06:29 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to obey their Masters as they would obey Christ? And how did the early Church interpret this passage of Scripture. In America, white slave Masters  used these passages to justify their holding ownership of black slaves. In Africa, blacks were rounded up and beaten and transported in chains on ships to America where they could be slaves for their new white Slave Masters. Children then and today have been sold into slavery, and horribly abused by perverts. I don't understand why the New Testament passages command these poor people to be obedient to their so-called Masters.  

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that these passages are supporting the owning of slaves any more than those passages that say Christians should be obedient to their rulers were supporting the pagan Emperor. They're about how a Christian should act in the  circumstances they find themselves in. Given the popularity of Christianity amongst slaves it's hardly surprising that St. Paul should have felt the need to give such advice but it's a far cry from actually condoning the practice and certainly does not justify the later slave trade.

James
As you know, even today children are taken into slavery. Should these children obey their Slave Masters as recommended by these NT passages, or should they act against Scripture and  try to escape their bondage?

St. Paul wasn't writing to modern children, nor was the culture in which he was writing anything like the culture we find ourselves in. You can't just rip his words out of context like that. You seem to have quite bizarrely come to the conclusion that by my posts I'm supporting slavery so I suggest that you should maybe re-read my posts in this thread. I don't believe St. Paul was supporting slavery and I can't see how you can read that into it, but in an Empire dependent on slave labour (I think the estimate is about 20% of all inhabitants were slaves) and as a leader of the Church which attracted those same slaves he had to respond to the pastoral needs of the flock.

James
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« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2012, 12:07:23 PM »

I said condemn slavery not condemn people.
I agree that we should condemn slavery as wrong, since I don't see any justification for one person to hold ownership over another. To hold ownership of a dog or other animal  is one thing, but humans are not dogs, and should not be treated as such.  
However, there is a problem since slavery is  mentioned several times in the New Testament as something licit.  Slaves are not encouraged to revolt, but to maintain their faithful service. According to  St. Peter: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh" (I Pet. 2:18). St. Paul says the same thing: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). So slaves are supposed to consider their Masters as Christ and to ob