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Author Topic: When Our Most Holy Church, the Pillar of Truth, Owned and Traded Slaves  (Read 7329 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« on: June 12, 2012, 12:09:33 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:12:23 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 12:21:19 PM »

[edit]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:21:32 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 12:26:53 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 12:36:20 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

what do u mean "the biggest slave-owners?"
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 12:37:13 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

Did God approve of it?  That's basically the point I'm making.   There have been sins that have resonated through every single religion in the world, also within the EO church.

These Monasteries believed the exploitation of people through slavery was justified somehow, or they were just sinners and wanted to exploit people for their gain.

Just as Catholics have the crusades (and Orthodox some), and all the holy wars, the monasteries where sexual abuse happened, and monasteries where slavery happened...

The world is a messed up place, parts of the church, the monasteries, sometimes get involved with the messed up world too.

When I focus on the overall church, I would not think the EO faith nor God would approve of exploiting other people.  That's basically my point.  They were either delusional or intentionally sinning.
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 12:38:09 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 12:43:58 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

what do u mean "the biggest slave-owners?"
They owned more Gypsies than any other institution. You know, the venerable fathers were too busy with the prayer of the heart,  so they needed slaves to  do the menial work.
A very large percentage of the monasteries of Wallachia and Moldova, with their land, villages and slaves were "dedicated" ("Inchinate"), that is were dependencies of the "holy Places", be that the Anastasis in Jerusalem, or monasteries in Athos, St. Catherine in Sinai and many other holy shrines of the ancient Patriarchates. Most of their revenue went directly to these places.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 12:45:19 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.

i'll bet some of the original unitarians owned slaves, too.
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 12:46:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 12:52:29 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 12:53:19 PM »

Feed the "pietry"
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 12:55:40 PM »

My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

How does slave-holding by clergymen and monastics demonstrate something which is irreconcilable with Truth?  How does it change anything?

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augustin717
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 01:03:56 PM »

My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

How does slave-holding by clergymen and monastics demonstrate something which is irreconcilable with Truth?  How does it change anything?


Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »

If opposition to slavery is the standard by which the dignity of the church is to be measured, then we should all be Unitarians.  Even there, one would find abuses of several sorts.

i'll bet some of the original unitarians owned slaves, too.

I don't have time to look up an example, but I know a few of the founding fathers were Unitarians and some of them owned slaves.  I don't think finding an example to shore up your bet would be too hard to find!


One thing that I cannot believe anyone has asked yet, what was the going price for a Gypsy slave back then?  Is it comparable to a Thai one these days?
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 01:14:46 PM »

augustin, you are not far from the truth.

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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 01:20:25 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

If it is real, it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of messed up stuff in every culture and religion.
But our God was not the one selling them, the sinners were.


You kinda miss the point. And yeah, up to the 19th century-1858, the Orthodox Church and the Monasteries of the Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia were the biggest slave-owners.

What's *your* point?  That men are fallen sinners, even monks, priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes?  Is this news to anyone?  Or is it that monasteries owned slaves?  If so, I wonder how they were treated (not that that justifies "owning" anyone!)?
My point is that the Church is the foundation and the Pillar of Truth and never changes, especially after the flimsy dictates of secularism and liberalism.

Owning slaves is wrong?  Gee, you must read a different Bible than I do.
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 01:30:17 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 01:43:40 PM »

The real problem here is that you're literate. You wouldn't have to deal with these earth-shattering revelations if the elite hadn't decided to let you learn to read.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 01:47:24 PM »

Well if truth is something up in the sky with no relation to how people live then it changes nothing; point is that the Church (hierarchy) has long ceased to be an agency of beneficial social change, it took the dissemination of the ideas of the French Encyclopaedists and French Revolution to end slavery in the Orthodox Church. Or serfdom in Russia.

Well, I'm not concerned with 'what is Truth' so much as the one ecclesiologiocal perspective that sees the Church as the pillar of Truth.  Actually, in my Bible, it's "pillar of truth" - small t.  Such an ecclesiology, indeed, sees the Church as stable, static and monolithic.  No argument there.  However, this ecclesiology concerns change at an intra-institutional level, not at a broader, social level.  You are condemning the Church because its seemingly ineffectiveness at social change by citing Scripture that refers to the instituted administration of the Church.  The connection just can't be made.

The Church technically remains the pillar of truth, referring to apostolic succession, even if such slaves were owed by the Church in the name of the Church.  The Church as pillar of truth really has nothing to do with social change.  
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 01:51:38 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 01:52:25 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"

No, no, you misunderstand; what was really going on was that the Monastery was acting much the way Monster.com or the Craigslist jobs section works, they were just finding these people work...yeah...I'm sure that's what happened.
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »

Thank God that times are changed. Today in  Slovakia, the Orthodox Diocese of Presov maintains the second largest Children's Home in that country. Service to the neglected and abandoned Roma (i.e. Gypsy) children is a prime part of their mission statement. http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/3201/  
And in Romania they become Pentecostals and, I tell you this from personal interaction with a few priests, the clergy seems rather relieved they don't have to deal with the Gypsies anymore.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 04:12:26 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 04:33:06 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 04:38:10 PM »

And I could start a new thread called: "When Our Dear Comrades, the Communists, the Pillar of a New Society, Murdered and Imprisioned Their Own People".

Point is-- this isn't really relevant to someones salvation in the 21st century.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 04:47:36 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Agreed.  After reading Ephesians and Fr. Lawrence's commentary, the contradictory nature of the Gospel message and owning slaves doesn't bother me.  St. Paul simply acknowledged that slavery was a part of the culture.  Rather than try and outlaw it (an impossible task), he admonished owners to treat their slaves as brothers.

Did the monastics of Moldova follow St. Pauls' admonitions?  I don't know.  And that's something between them and God.  But the culture of 1852 is vastly different than 2012. 
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 04:53:55 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 05:01:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 05:08:46 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?
Because most on this board became Orthodox under the illusion that Orthodoxy is some timeless capsule, where nothing changes. And when change occurs, we'll bury our nous deeper under the sand. And life goes on...
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 05:09:46 PM »

This thread is just making more clear for me something that has been cooking for a while.

Big Sinner articulated it best.
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 05:10:17 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.

It would certainly not take much for him to get me to understand that.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 05:14:36 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 05:15:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

You also noticed how Paul was being sarcastic to Philemon when he chided him about owning their fellow brother Onesimus, when he said things like "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you" and further "if then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me." Did Philemon treat Paul as a slave? I think the guilt-trip aspect of this Scripture should be fairly obvious.

For well over a thousand years, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was complicit with the East African slave trade.  Ethiopian Christians participated in trade networks, collected head taxes on slaves as if they were just inventory, and sometimes even joined in slaving raids into the south and west of Ethiopia.  Further, many monasteries in fact owned multitudes of slaves.  It was not until 1930 that HIM Haile Selassie finally by God's Grace liberated the slaves of Ethiopia.  He abolished to paternalistic model which had dominated the Ethiopian Christian mind, very similar in fact to the way the Spanish treated the American Indians, and instead raised the bar as to how the Christian civilization of Ethiopia was expected in a nationalistic way to embrace the idea of a pan-Ethiopian society.  HIM understood the inherit wrongness of slavery, and no amount of Scriptural apologetics could have changed HIM mind, or indeed shifted the tide of the world which shifted away from direct slavery to economic exploitation (just as America shifted from slavery to the insidious share-cropping system).

We as Christians can pretend that God justified slavery by the Bible, in all actuality, much like all the other evils of the world, God allowed slavery to exist out of His mercy for the slave-dealers, slavers, and slave-runners.  However, from the beginning of time, God created us a family, and only Cain's jealousy of his brother caused man to fight against man.  Slavery is the worst form of evil,  because it entirely disregards the human dignity of the person enslaved.

For those who pretend the Old Testament some how exonerates post-Christian slavery, perhaps you should begin to contemplate stoning witches and adulterers just the same.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

So morality changes in the eyes of Christianity?
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 05:15:35 PM »

I think what augustin wants us to understand is that there is no sincerity in real (nominal) Orthodoxy.
Well, nominal, cultural Orthodoxy has its problems, but it's still a breathable space. It's "sincere Orthodoxy" that's really scary.
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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2012, 05:16:02 PM »

Philemon owned a slave too. It was a different time with a different culture.

Who knows? In 200 years people may look at us and say how barbaric and evil we were for killing animals for food, or for allowing 18 year old children to have sex legally.....

PP

Or, more likely, for not having the age of consent be 13, given the general direction of things.

Anyways, why is it that everyone here, except Augustin I suppose, seems to think it is acceptable to just write off uncomfortable parts of Orthodox history by saying "Well, it was a different time."  Is the Church supposed to change with the times, to such a degree that unacceptable things become acceptable?  Doesn't the whole argument against homosexual relations kind of rest on the "The Church does not change its morality simply because society changes," line?

I am not writing anything off.  The issue is rather clear, to me.  Homosexuality is a sin, slavery is not.  Yet, the real problem becomes in the definition of both terms.  I could clairify by saying that men having sex with other men is sinful, while owning slaves and treating them as brothers is not.  You are not going to try to turn this thread into another push for your gay agenda are you?
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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 05:16:20 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

That ain't what he's saying. 
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:49 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

Not at all, provided that I was treated in accordance with the rules set out in such Orthodox writings as the Domostroy.  It would be preferable to much of what I have witnessed in the American ghettos.
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:53 PM »

I think you're fighting a straw man.  It was a part of a bygone era and is no longer accepted today.  Except maybe by Sudanese Muslims.

There are a lot of slaves in modernity.  In the literal sense there still are labor camps in North Korea.  If you stretch the definition a bit, Chinese capitalism has put millions into near slave like conditions.  Human trafficking is a huge issue in Eastern Europe and other parts of the globe.  

So a Christian has no ethical reason to oppose these?  
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2012, 05:21:06 PM »

The slavery issue is quite complex given the fact that how most Americans understand slavery in our country's history is radically different than what was practiced by the Latins.

And it is complicated by Philemon. A text almost no one reads correctly (Habte already alludes to some of the reasons), if at all. One of my favorite of the Pauline texts.

Gotta run.
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sclavi_Tiganesti.jpg

"For sale [...] Gypsy Slaves, auction at noon at the Elias Monastery, May 8th 1852, lot composed of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women and 3 girls-in fine condition"
IIRC Judas was in the original Church, and he trafficked in persons.  your point?
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »

You can do something with your bible if you see no wrong in it. But I guess you're just being sarcastic.

Not really. There is a big difference between the "slavery" practiced by the Jews in Old Testatment times and in Orthodox nations AD and the degrading inhuman slavery practiced in the Americas most recently.  Owning slaves was never a Biblical issue.  The way they were treated certainly was.

You wouldn't find it degrading and inhuman to be the property of someone else?

That ain't what he's saying.  

I suspect that the slavery of Gypsies that Augustin referenced has less to do with 'brotherly slavery' or any purported apologia to gloss the practice and put a religious imprimatur upon it and more to do with say, plantation slavery. Funny how no one wonders how the 'well treated' slaves felt about bondage in their attempts to justify the practice. If slavery was so great and normal in Old Testament times, why did the Jews need Moses to lead them out of bondage?

Frankly, it sickens my heart that any modern Orthodox Christian can attempt to justify the practice. Perhaps one of our clergy members would like to weigh in here on this before it goes any further.

Here's an example of the above-referenced Rules: "38: But if your wife does not live according to this teaching and instruction, does not do all that is recommended here, if she does not teach her servants, then the husband should punish his wife. Beat her when you are alone together; then forgive her and remonstrate with her. But when you beat her, do not do it in hatred, do not lose control. A husband must never get angry with his wife; a wife must live with her husband in love and purity. You should discipline servants and children the same way. Punish them according to the extent of their guilt and the severity of their deed. Lay stripes upon them but, when you have punished them, forgive them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domostroy
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