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andrewlya
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« on: June 10, 2012, 06:05:59 PM »

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Ive been reading on one of the forums and came across this post by someone who has done some research and wrote this:

"I am currently studying the philosophy of world religions at University at this present moment, and I would like to share that Jews have a list of descriptions of who and what a Messiah should be, and I have included on why Jesus is not a Messiah of Judaism, hence, considering Muhammed was alive AFTER Jesus, and also started a new religion himself...many listed may also apply to him as well.

Rabbi, please correct me anywhere, if I am incorrect.

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".


I believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the scriptures,what are your thoughts on the post above?
Also,we are waiting for the 2nd coming of the Messiah,does the Old Testament mention the 2nd coming?

Thank you for your answers, God bless in Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 06:35:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Ive been reading on one of the forums and came across this post by someone who has done some research and wrote this:

"I am currently studying the philosophy of world religions at University at this present moment, and I would like to share that Jews have a list of descriptions of who and what a Messiah should be, and I have included on why Jesus is not a Messiah of Judaism, hence, considering Muhammed was alive AFTER Jesus, and also started a new religion himself...many listed may also apply to him as well.

Rabbi, please correct me anywhere, if I am incorrect.

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


(1)The Church is the Third Temple, and of course all the Jews are as invited as anyone, but we read in the Acts how that went.  None of the Jews necessarily believed the Messiah would usher in an era of world peace, it was that the Messiah would bring Salvation. (2) Jesus did indeed embody the qualifications of the Messiah, hence why the Apostles reiterate this so constantly.  (3) In regards to the Virgin Birth, yes, it is a common Jewish refutation that Christianity misappropriated Isaiah.  However, the Septuagint is an older translation of the Bible then the Tanakh, or any other Jewish scriptures which weren't compiled fully until the 10th century AD!!  The Septuagint was translated BY Jews in the time of the Temple, it is considered official by most legitimate Bible scholars.  The Septaugint specifically translates the verse in Isaiah with the connotation of Virgin.  True, it does not literally say the conception was virginal, but even the Muslims agree on this with Christianity. (4) We all DO know where the Messiah comes from.  There is no historical evidence for Jesus, for all intents and purposes He is a fictional character, yet the entire world seems to be arguing about Him.  Folks of all faiths implicitly believe in Jesus, even if just to argue about Him, but very rarely is the "He never even existed" card ever pulled with any kind of credibility. Interesting..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 02:01:23 PM »

Thank you for clarifying.

You said that the Church is the 3rd Temple that was built according to the prophesy, what are the other two Temples?
Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 02:59:34 PM »

Those are all great examples plus there are many more to add. I will say those are pretty much home run hit's out the park and why you won't get a lot of feed back as pretty hard to fight against the facts when there in black and white.
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 03:11:29 PM »

   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 03:13:31 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 03:31:56 PM »

   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 03:32:52 PM »


    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural"
   

The second Moses? Who was that? 300 years too late for Jesus? Then Messiah will never come since two milleniums passed? Huh
Supernatural? The Messiah will not be considered supernatural? Do the Jews believe that the expected Messiah will not work miracles? Isn't a miracle something supernatural?

and he also rejected the Torah.
This is a lie or a fallacy of straw-man.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 03:39:24 PM »

Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma
I did not know that the Dead Sea Scrolls were from Ezra's period. Grin
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 03:55:16 PM »

   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma

Sorry Charlie, the Septuagint is estimated to have been written in the 3rd century BCE for Alexandrian Jews, whereas the Dead Sea Scrolls are estimated to be from 150 BCE at the oldest, some sources even saying that they are only from AD 70.
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 03:56:41 PM »

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma

Sorry Charlie, the Septuagint is estimated to have been written in the 3rd century BCE for Alexandrian Jews, whereas the Dead Sea Scrolls are estimated to be from 150 BCE at the oldest, some sources even saying that they are only from AD 70.
Try google and read about dead sea scrolls and there age
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 04:04:03 PM »

Try google and read about dead sea scrolls and there age

Oh I did. And the earliest possible age I came up with was from the 3rd century BCE; around the same time as the Septuagint. And keep in mind that this is an extremely generous view and that most historians believe that the Scrolls were composed between 150 BCE and AD 70.

Even in the unlikely scenerio that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in the 3rd century BCE, making them about equal in age to the Septuagint, this fact still does nothing to give the Dead Sea Scrolls authority over the Septuagint. At the very best, we have to regard them as equally important documents because they roughly come from the same age, and thus, this debate continues to go on. You've made absolutely no point so far my friend.
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 04:32:19 PM »

You do realise that, even if for the sake of argument we do assign an early date to the first Septuagint, that it wasn't the same thing as the Septuagint many Orthodox like to talk about, right? Books like 2 Maccabees, Sirach, etc. were only added later, and alterations (intentional or otherwise) were possible.
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 04:42:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma
The Dead Sea scrolls are fragments from the 1st century AD, which may in fact do more to prove the point James made about a Jewish scriptural conspiracy rather than clinching evidence of a Christian conspiracy to change Isaiah.  

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.

The oldest complete copies of the Bible we have are the Septuagint versions from the 4th century AD, of course which is about 600 years older than the oldest copies of the Hebrew manuscripts.  Everything else is fragments, honestly, why should we argue about fragments?  Its all or nothing otherwise its just an assumption, and in this category, the Septuagint wins hands down, regardless of when it was initially translated.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma
The Dead Sea scrolls are fragments from the 1st century AD, which may in fact do more to prove the point James made about a Jewish scriptural conspiracy rather than clinching evidence of a Christian conspiracy to change Isaiah.  

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.

The oldest complete copies of the Bible we have are the Septuagint versions from the 4th century AD, of course which is about 600 years older than the oldest copies of the Hebrew manuscripts.  Everything else is fragments, honestly, why should we argue about fragments?  Its all or nothing otherwise its just an assumption, and in this category, the Septuagint wins hands down, regardless of when it was initially translated.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I know this much G-d is the best jokester of them all cause the only full scroll that is found in the find was what book? Thats right would be the Isaiah scroll. It still says Alma. Besides that you do know that scrolls don't have chapters to them right and a few lines down we find out that Isaiah wife has a son who he brought before the King in the first place and said she was with child all and lets not forget the fact that by the time Jesus came the King of the south which is Judea beat the king in the North kingdom Which is what Isaiah told the king would happen before his son could pretty much walk and talk and if you want to know more on this story you can read  more about it in I think you call them Kingdoms 1 and 2 or 1st king and 2nd kings
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 06:10:31 PM »

Yet the Septuagint testifies against the Jewish Rabbis and accuses them of distorting the Hebrew text.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »

I know this much G-d is the best jokester of them all cause the only full scroll that is found in the find was what book? Thats right would be the Isaiah scroll. It still says Alma.

Well there are two explanations for this. If the Dead Sea Scrolls were composed BCE, then it could just be a mere coincidence that Isaiah is the only full manuscript. But if they were composed sometime in CE, like perhaps AD 70 as Hapte pointed out, then it could just be that the Jews at the time who composed the Scrolls were anti-Christian and made special effort to preserve their altered version of Isaiah.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is also fair to mention that Judaism does not even have an official binding Canon or source of scripture. You may not use the Septuagint, but there are still Jews in Ethiopia who still use the Septuagint and all Jews prior to Javneh used the Septuagint. The only reason the council of Javneh changed up the Septuagint was because Christians had embarassed them by using it against them. So while you may obey Javneh, there is no reason why I--a Christian--should obey the decision of a Jewish council that took place like 70 years after my Saviour's ascension.

we find out that Isaiah wife has a son who he brought before the King in the first place and said she was with child all and lets not forget the fact that by the time Jesus came the King of the south which is Judea beat the king in the North kingdom Which is what Isaiah told the king would happen before his son could pretty much walk and talk and if you want to know more on this story you can read  more about it in I think you call them Kingdoms 1 and 2 or 1st king and 2nd kings

I really want to understand what you are saying so I can refute it but I cannot understand your post with your grammar. Please type more coherently.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 06:32:32 PM »

I know this much G-d is the best jokester of them all cause the only full scroll that is found in the find was what book? Thats right would be the Isaiah scroll. It still says Alma.

Well there are two explanations for this. If the Dead Sea Scrolls were composed BCE, then it could just be a mere coincidence that Isaiah is the only full manuscript. But if they were composed sometime in CE, like perhaps AD 70 as Hapte pointed out, then it could just be that the Jews at the time who composed the Scrolls were anti-Christian and made special effort to preserve their altered version of Isaiah.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is also fair to mention that Judaism does not even have an official binding Canon or source of scripture. You may not use the Septuagint, but there are still Jews in Ethiopia who still use the Septuagint and all Jews prior to Javneh used the Septuagint. The only reason the council of Javneh changed up the Septuagint was because Christians had embarassed them by using it against them. So while you may obey Javneh, there is no reason why I--a Christian--should obey the decision of a Jewish council that took place like 70 years after my Saviour's ascension.
Hey you can Choose what ever way you want and feel is best for you I just asking that you and when I say you meaning all Christians to not just cherry pick one verse out of the whole story. I would also like to add even just for the sake of  saying it was virgin  you still are missing some of the facts that is pointed out in the OP and are still in waiting to see if Jesus comes back to finish his work that he has yet to do the first time.  I'm sure we both can agree to that.I'm sure when that day comes and if it's in are life time we can ask him if it's his first time or second time coming.  Cheers
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 06:37:05 PM »

I know this much G-d is the best jokester of them all cause the only full scroll that is found in the find was what book? Thats right would be the Isaiah scroll. It still says Alma.

Well there are two explanations for this. If the Dead Sea Scrolls were composed BCE, then it could just be a mere coincidence that Isaiah is the only full manuscript. But if they were composed sometime in CE, like perhaps AD 70 as Hapte pointed out, then it could just be that the Jews at the time who composed the Scrolls were anti-Christian and made special effort to preserve their altered version of Isaiah.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is also fair to mention that Judaism does not even have an official binding Canon or source of scripture. You may not use the Septuagint, but there are still Jews in Ethiopia who still use the Septuagint and all Jews prior to Javneh used the Septuagint. The only reason the council of Javneh changed up the Septuagint was because Christians had embarassed them by using it against them. So while you may obey Javneh, there is no reason why I--a Christian--should obey the decision of a Jewish council that took place like 70 years after my Saviour's ascension.
Hey you can Choose what ever way you want and feel is best for you I just asking that you and when I say you meaning all Christians to not just cherry pick one verse out of the whole story. I would also like to add even just for the sake of  saying it was virgin  you still are missing some of the facts that is pointed out in the OP and are still in waiting to see if Jesus comes back to finish his work that he has yet to do the first time.  I'm sure we both can agree to that.I'm sure when that day comes and if it's in are life time we can ask him if it's his first time or second time coming.  Cheers

I know next to nothing about the Old Testament itself and the 'facts' that you use to object Christ; hence I would have obliterated them if I knew. But I do know the history of the Old Testament and I'm only refuting the historical doubts about the Virgin Birth which Jews raise.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:38:35 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 02:14:24 AM »

Pretty sure the DSS don't even contain the fragment in question, anyway.

Also the Dead Sea fragments of the psalms are closer to the LXX. Will post references when I get back from Austria.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 04:42:21 AM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 12:20:28 PM »

I always wonder why the issue of "alma" is the main focal point.

I think Psalms 22 pretty much sums up the crucifixion.   Though some would consider this a prophecy, and others not, it really doesn't matter.

It's so direct, that it should send chills down the spine of any Jew.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 01:29:52 PM »

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Ive been reading on one of the forums and came across this post by someone who has done some research and wrote this:

"I am currently studying the philosophy of world religions at University at this present moment, and I would like to share that Jews have a list of descriptions of who and what a Messiah should be, and I have included on why Jesus is not a Messiah of Judaism, hence, considering Muhammed was alive AFTER Jesus, and also started a new religion himself...many listed may also apply to him as well.

Rabbi, please correct me anywhere, if I am incorrect.

   1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. He did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. Or even spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
    2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, as he did not live during the time of the prophecy of the second Moses - 300 years too late apparently. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, and was considered supernatural" and he also rejected the Torah.
   3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth...also Jesus having a divine father is a Hellenstic (Ancient Greek) ideology.
   4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation, and we ALL will know when the next Messiah will come.


Therefore, there has been no Messiah - yet, according to Judaism".


I believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the scriptures,what are your thoughts on the post above?
Also,we are waiting for the 2nd coming of the Messiah,does the Old Testament mention the 2nd coming?

Thank you for your answers, God bless in Jesus Christ.


Judaism itself picks and choses , and gets to the limitis of irationality just to dismiss Jesus.. There are two options with the Jews.. To want to be sincere with their religion or to hang on anything to disbelief in Him.They are the ones split between two opinions as Elijah said : If the Lord be God than follow Him, if Baal than follow Him..

1.Jews often want to forget that the general way of interpreting the Scriptures was poeticall, allegorical, through figures of speech and not extremely literalist.

The second Temple was still standing around Jesus' ministry and some 37 years after.Some say that the Temple of Ezekiel is a description of the Second Temple, or that it was conditional and some as the Kabbalists take it to be refering to the Church.. There is actually a Christian description that corresponds with that, the New Jerusalem in Revelation, that has similar descriptions.. The fathers themselves have interpreted most of the verses regathering of Israel to be refering to the Church whom is the New Israel.Israel means the one who sees the Lord.God's ruling in the World is the Christian Church.The Church is all over the world.The name of God is one, Jesus.. The no1 theist religion in the world is Christianity.. The verses in Zec also refer to the pagans coming to the knowledge of the true God.. And i`m not sure all prophecies fulfilled entirely with the first coming.. One former jewish hacham who became an Orthodox monk , Neofit Cavsocalvitiu said that the psalmist foretold the two comings , when he said "The Lord comes, comes to judge the world" .. He also had an interesting manner of interpreting in various cases Israel to refer to the (Orthodox) Church and Jacob to the Jews or the heterodox.. Jacob in hebrew also means "deceived" .. He speaks of two "Jacobs" one red and one deceived..

2.Jesus was born "at the appointed time" , at the exact time.That is why there is a curse in the Talmud for everyone who tries to interpret the prophecies of Daniel concerning the timing of Messiah, the Prince.Jesus did not rejected the Torah(Matt 5:17-19).He rejected some false traditions of the rabbis concerning the Torah.Here we have a philosophical principle to debate of Jesus vs the Torah.. Yet even Jewish rabbis have believed that the Torah of Moses will get superseded by the Torah of Messiah.. Genesis says concerning the law, untill the Comforter comes, on whom all people will gather.As I said even the Rabbis agree that some parts of the Torah of Moses were only appointed temporal.

Quote
Jewish Tradition on the temporary state of the Mitzvahs (commandments) of the Torah

"Ordinances of the Kings" that the King annointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments".—Risto Santala quoting RaMBaM

"The Torah will revert to its original state"-- Pesikhta Rabbati 89,6

"The Holy One -- may he be blessed -- will sit (in the Garden of Eden) and draw up a new Torah for Israel, which will be given to them by the Messiah."—Rabbi Yalqut Isaiah, Yalqut Isaiah 26, siman 296

"In the future the commandments will be annulled.”-- Nida 66b. ‘traditions of the Wise’

"At the end the Torah will be forgotten."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Mechilta, Masechet Piska, 2; cAD 170-200

“This is how it will be in the days of the Messiah; there will be no 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' commandments (zechut ve-hovâh)."—Rabbi Shimon Ben Eleazar, Shabbath 130a-b.

Klausner, in his book "The Messianic Idea in Israel", explains that, "The natural interpretation of this is that in the days of the Messiah, the Torah and the Commandments will lose their significance"—Risto Santala on Klausner

"The Torah which man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the teaching of the Messiah."—Midrash of Ecclesiates, Midrash Qoheleth 71,8.

" 'The LORD sets prisoners free'... What does this 'setting free of prisoners' mean? There are those who say that in the future the Holy One will make all unclean animals fit for eating."—Midrash Psalm 146:7, Midrash Tehilim 146,7.**This is similar to Jesus’ and St Paul’s saying on freeing the prisoners

All sacrifices, except thankofferings*, will be abolished in future; and even should prayer be abolished, that portion thereof which comes under Praises will not be abolished.—Levit. Rabba 9. *The thanksoffering, or todah, is the Eucharist which means thanksgiving, as it is written Christ “gave thanks” and said “offer this memorial sacrifice”

“Thus our Sages have stated: Even if all the festivals become obsolete, Purim will remain. In the Messianic Era, the joy and tranquility of the festivals will be a daily experience. Their light will be like that of a candle in the light of day. Yet even in that spiritually advanced climate, the loftiness of Purim will still be something to celebrate.”—Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, On Esther 9:28

3.Alma means young girl, indeed.. the word also means , the Concealed One.. If you ask me the almah itself is a more deep stuff because it shows more the nature of Mary and who she was and points and alludes to the promise made to the serpent.. Actually the fathers call the birth of Mary as one of the Concealed Mysteries.Mary was a pregnant bethroted and married woman.. This status of her concealed who she was, and the fathers say that Mary and the birth of Jesus were concealed to the devil because of this.

4.It was said that the kingdom will be taken away from Israel, and the Bible speaks of the remnant of Israel.. There were Jews who believed , like St. Anna, St. Simeon , Nicodemous, Joseph of Arimathea , the thousands of Jews who believed in Acts.This were the first-fruits of the remnant of the Jews.. Jesus was foretold by St.John the Baptist .. The ministry of St. John and the ministry of Jesus, the ministry of the Apostles and the ministry of the Church was first to Israel..


The Jews will use any manner of interpretation except the ones used in Christianity.. They don`t know that the veil is removed in Christ.. The Torah can only be fruitfull in the light of Christ.. The end of the Torah is Christ as Paul said.. The chastising of God to the Jews for breaking the Torah is mostly because of Jesus and his teachings, which are the teachings of God and true.. As it is written in the Torah (Deut 18:18).. The true and ultimate morality and the revealed morality is that of Jesus.And as one of the father said, Moses himself said "They are wrong" foreseing this..



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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 02:10:25 PM »

Jesus is the most Jewish, legalistic a la carte thing there is.
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 10:54:28 AM »

Jewish comments to that issue and the discussion that was started with them were moved to the Religious Topics.
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 12:35:02 PM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James

Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James

Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.

That's what I was thinking, it rules nothing out.
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 04:27:00 PM »

Quote
Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.
Dont worry, Im sure the definition will change once it becomes inconvenient for certain folks. History's proven that such things happen from time to time Smiley

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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2012, 06:04:46 AM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James

Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.

I'd go further than that. I'd say that given the culture of the time, she'd be absolutely expected to be a virgin given that the word, to my knowledge, denotes a young marriageable woman. Unmarried women were certainly expected to remain virgin until marriage and marriageable women are by definition unmarried. In my opinion its no mistake at all that almah was translated as virgin and it seems to me that Jewish apologists are being less than honest when they say it doesn't mean virgin. The word may not literally mean 'virgin' and may not be used in exactly the same way but it certainly, and pretty clearly, implies virginity, assuming that my understanding of the word's meaning and the culture of the times are not way off (and I'm reasonably certain they aren't).

James
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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2012, 09:05:12 AM »

Pretty sure the DSS don't even contain the fragment in question, anyway.

Also the Dead Sea fragments of the psalms are closer to the LXX. Will post references when I get back from Austria.

This may help:

http://www.setterfield.org/Septuagint_History.html#differences

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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2012, 09:07:57 AM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James

Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.


I get the feeling that most young women or girls, if you may, were virgins at that time.  A little issue of sex before marriage was very much a taboo.
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2012, 09:21:37 AM »

What I cannot understand re Judaism trying to disprove Christianity is that we received the Gospel from a Jewish messianic movementfrom within Judaism that interpreted the scriptures to the Gentiles. The Gentiles did not hijack & reinterpret something to fit their own needs. Surely Judaism can claim we have been allegedly hoodwinked but I do not think a claim can be made that we have tampered with the message we were hoodwinked by.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 08:07:38 AM »

"Ethiopian Jews are the only Jewish community today who accept the Septuagint "

Sounds interesting how come the Rabbis in Ethiopia approve the Septuagint to this day ?. What is it's rendering of Isaiah 7:14 & Psalm 22

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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2012, 09:29:13 AM »

My understanding was that Alma in Hebrew, rather like Jungfrau in German, means either young woman or virgin depending on context. The context even in Hebrew would appear to argue against interpretation as young woman (not much of a sign) if that is actually the case, but the fact that pre-Christian Jews chose to translate it as virgin seems like the killer blow. At the very least there must have been two different traditions regarding Isaiah and the fact that the one preferred by post-Christian Jews is different to the one accepted by the Church is not a good argument in favour of the Jewish interpretation. In effect you'd have to assume the Jewish interpretation is correct to begin with and thus the argument becomes circular.

James

Of course. A young woman could still be a virgin as well.

That's what I was thinking, it rules nothing out.

Of course it can mean a virgin as well. As far as I  know Mary was about 12 at the time..
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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2012, 12:38:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.
Sorry the Dead Sea Scrolls are to be older and wouldn't you know the Hebrew still says Alma
The Dead Sea scrolls are fragments from the 1st century AD, which may in fact do more to prove the point James made about a Jewish scriptural conspiracy rather than clinching evidence of a Christian conspiracy to change Isaiah.  

  3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are not interpreted properly. For example: The Virgin birth, "alma" is used in the Herbew text and means young woman and or giving birth - that was changed to virginal birth

False. The Septuagint is the older text and it does imply a Virgin mother. The Jews actually changed this at the council of Javneh in AD 98 where they replaced the original word and connotation with 'Alma' precisely so that they could try and refute the Christian idea of a Virgin birth.

The oldest complete copies of the Bible we have are the Septuagint versions from the 4th century AD, of course which is about 600 years older than the oldest copies of the Hebrew manuscripts.  Everything else is fragments, honestly, why should we argue about fragments?  Its all or nothing otherwise its just an assumption, and in this category, the Septuagint wins hands down, regardless of when it was initially translated.

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I know this much G-d is the best jokester of them all cause the only full scroll that is found in the find was what book? Thats right would be the Isaiah scroll. It still says Alma. Besides that you do know that scrolls don't have chapters to them right and a few lines down we find out that Isaiah wife has a son who he brought before the King in the first place and said she was with child all and lets not forget the fact that by the time Jesus came the King of the south which is Judea beat the king in the North kingdom Which is what Isaiah told the king would happen before his son could pretty much walk and talk and if you want to know more on this story you can read  more about it in I think you call them Kingdoms 1 and 2 or 1st king and 2nd kings

The interesting things that I don't think that Jews understand, is even if we are wrong, and Isaiah really says "young woman", it really doesn't matter and does not state that she was not a virgin.  Many Jewish girls were heavily watched and forced to be around their mothers, accompanied, or escorted.

It's also an irony that the Jews do not argue that Mary was a virgin from the Christian scriptures, but rather just argue the word in Isaiah.  They don't care to explain then how the synoptics testify to the virgin birth except to call the entire thing a lie.

It's amazing how much we know today about what went on back then.  I don't believe 4 people who could read/write in those times would spur some vast conspiracy to convince people 2000 years later of a virgin birth.
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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2012, 12:56:11 PM »

I always wonder why the issue of "alma" is the main focal point.
'cause sometimes, even modern Jews are influenced by biblicism.  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2012, 08:33:40 PM »

A good response to some of these claims by EA:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5547.0
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2012, 02:47:03 PM »


I don't want to open a new thread. But, I am curios to know whether it's appropriate to say that "Christianity is religion of the Scriptures". I found this statement on from the following site.

Excerpt:

"Paganism is people's verbal tradition and folklore. It has always been, and it should be noted that even" pagan” beliefs of Abkhazians were monotheistic, rather than polytheistic as many other nations. Christianity is great culture that all peoples living on this planet should take as a starting point. This is a written religion as Christ commanded his disciples to go and teach all nations, and teach them in writing, Christianity is religion of the scriptures, "

http://eng.expertclub.ge/portal/cnid__12257/alias__Expertclub/lang__en/tabid__2546/default.aspx

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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2012, 03:49:35 PM »

A good response to some of these claims by EA:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5547.0

PotM for directing me to a fantastic post by EA and all around great thread!
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