Apology from a muslim....

[fibonacci]

Hello everyone

600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..

Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic

he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque


His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion!  I deeply apologize for my religion.

I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.


I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.

[Ansgar]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

[Maria]

Lord have mercy.

May the Lord enlighten you and your family and bring you peace.

[Alpo]

While I don't believe that an individual Muslim (or Christian) can make an apology for some historical wrongdoings of another Muslim (or Christian) since we're all individuals here that was indeed a kind gesture. Thanks, fibonacci.

May Lord have mercy on us all.

[NicholasMyra]

Lord, have mercy!

Thanks, but the Lord of heaven and earth does not dwell in temples built by hands. So it's not a super big deal.

[Jason.Wike]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house.

[Ansgar]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house.

Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples.

[Jason.Wike]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house.

Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples.

Yes I know, my point was this church was originally a church, not originally a mosque as people usually say. Besides the fact that people shouldn't feel guilty for what people 1000 years ago did anyway, there's no reason to feel guilty about this.

[minasoliman]

Lord, have mercy!

Thanks, but the Lord of heaven and earth does not dwell in temples built by hands. So it's not a super big deal.

[Ansgar]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house.

Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples.

Yes I know, my point was this church was originally a church, not originally a mosque as people usually say. Besides the fact that people shouldn't feel guilty for what people 1000 years ago did anyway, there's no reason to feel guilty about this.

Oh, alright, I misunderstood then. 

[dzheremi]

Yes. This is a nice gesture, and I thank you very much for it, Fibonacci, but at the same time I would rather focus on today's issues. A church in Turkey means nothing if the people who would go to it are driven from the land under the pretense of "insulting Turkishness" or what have you. Freedom of religion and conscience for all people are more valuable than any building. Let's focus on what is really important.

[Salpy]

A tangent was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45210.new.html#top

[fibonacci]

Thank you all for your very kind welcome!

Dzheremi, Hagia Sophia is one of the most important churchs to the Orthodox community.  And an apology is long over due.

In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future.  A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time.  Right now, it's unfortunately a money-making museum....and not a place of worship.

However, I do agree we should address some of the current problems that are going on.  I believe a lot of these conflicts are the result of economic pressures (created by the devil), which prevents individuals to gain deep knowledge about their own religion, other religions and to learn about history.

[dzheremi]

Yeah, maybe, I don't know. It is a matter of degree. Some people on this board also think along similar lines, and I think economic pressures certainly play a role in world conflicts, no doubt. So it is good to have people from different faiths reaching out to one another like this. And if Hagia Sophia will be returned, it will be returned. That is with God, who is our only liberator. If it is returned, we will rejoice; if it is not returned, we will still rejoice, because the faith that built it still lives, even when the people who once served it have long since departed to their rest.

[Gorazd]

Right now, it's unfortunately a money-making museum....and not a place of worship.

There is an admission fee, but they don't really make any money through this, the money rather goes to the conservation of the buildings for which the museum administration charges that fee.

[Balthasar]

Hello everyone

600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..

Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic

he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque


His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion!  I deeply apologize for my religion.

I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.


I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.

Thank your for your apologies, thank you for not following the examples of the first Muslim terrorist, Muhammad. 

[Alpo]

In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future.  A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time.

Interesting. What makes you believe that way? Is this strictly a Shia belief or held more generally by Muslims?

[Ansgar]

In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future.  A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time.

Interesting. What makes you believe that way? Is this strictly a Shia belief or held more generally by Muslims?

I have read something similar.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/06/mysterious-hagia-sophia-frightens-turks.html

[Shanghaiski]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

The Cordoba "mosque" was originally a Christian church, before the Moorish conquest of Spain.

[Ansgar]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised.

I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque.

It's a masterpiece

The Cordoba "mosque" was originally a Christian church, before the Moorish conquest of Spain.

I wasn't claiming that the mosque in Cordoba was a case equal to that of Hagia Sophia. However, the fact still remains that the spanish rulers allowed a new church to be build inside the mosque while thousands of moors were forced to flee the Iberian Peninsula with many of those staying being forcefully converted to Christianity.

I wasn't trying to start a discussion.

[ialmisry]

Hello everyone

600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..

Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic

he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque


His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion!  I deeply apologize for my religion.

I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.


I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.

Welcome.

As a Shia, I'm not sure how or why you should apologize for what Mehmet did.  It is sort of like Orthodox apologizing for the Crusades.

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what madhhab of Shi'ism/line of imams do you subscribe to?

As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other," to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian.  For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet.

[Orthodox11]

As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other,"

No doubt images of Ashura celebrations have something to do with it. For many who know nothing about Islam, that's the only thing that distinguishes Sunni Islam from the Shi'at 'Ali: The former are terrorists, the latter are sadomasochistic terrorists. Then there are those scary Iranians and Hizbullah who don't approve of the beacon of hope, peace and democracy that is our friend Israel.

to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian.  For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet.

This is my experience also.

[fibonacci]

Welcome.

As a Shia, I'm not sure how or why you should apologize for what Mehmet did.  It is sort of like Orthodox apologizing for the Crusades.

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what madhhab of Shi'ism/line of imams do you subscribe to?

As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other," to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian.  For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet.

Hi again, sorry for the late reply.

I was raised as a 12er, and agree with most aspects of it.  However, I'm more of a muslim that's open to all insightful and truthful knowledge -- I don't really have that 'group' mentality.

[fibonacci]

As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other,"

No doubt images of Ashura celebrations have something to do with it. For many who know nothing about Islam, that's the only thing that distinguishes Sunni Islam from the Shi'at 'Ali: The former are terrorists, the latter are sadomasochistic terrorists. Then there are those scary Iranians and Hizbullah who don't approve of the beacon of hope, peace and democracy that is our friend Israel.

You're right about ashura and unfortunately there are some shias who treat it as an entertainment session-- and go overboard, making a huge ritual out of it.  It should really be a time of quiet reflection, not a 'raving' ritual fest.

About Israel, I can explain that aspect of it in another thread.

But just note that... in Iran, the ancient Persian empire is obv a huge part of the school curriculum.  So they're taught the indisputable facts, that under the command of Cyrus the Great, the Persian empire helped free all the Jews from the Babylons and let them resettle in the land of Israel.  Furthermore, the persians helped the Jews rebuild the temple of Solomon.

So the common consensus of the Iranian people, is that the Jews did resettle into their homeland, and did get their temple, and they did get the prophesied messiah-- which was Jesus. 

However, after a series of droughts and earthquake, they've left that region for Europe-- and that's where the disagreement starts.  Furthermore, the Iranians don't really agree with the notion of eretz yisrael -- where some israelis claim that the borders should cover all the oil fields in the persian gulf area- so this is another major area of disagreement.

[mabsoota]

interesting discussion.
who is that guy in your picture, fibonacci; is he harvesting wheat?

i have plenty of muslim friends and like to discuss belief and culture with them.
 

[fibonacci]

interesting discussion.
who is that guy in your picture, fibonacci; is he harvesting wheat?

i have plenty of muslim friends and like to discuss belief and culture with them.
 

likewise, feel free to post any questions you have on Islam in my other thread

the avatar I have, is a picture of a statue of Cyrus the great ..tbh, I'm not sure if he's harvesting wheat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YebB4nVw_Mg

[Kerdy]

While I don't believe that an individual Muslim (or Christian) can make an apology for some historical wrongdoings of another Muslim (or Christian) since we're all individuals here that was indeed a kind gesture. Thanks, fibonacci.

May Lord have mercy on us all.

What Alpo said!

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