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fibonacci
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« on: June 10, 2012, 02:02:09 PM » |
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Hello everyone
600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..
Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic
he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque
His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion! I deeply apologize for my religion.
I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.
I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.
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Ansgar
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 02:19:06 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece  |
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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Maria
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 02:47:43 PM » |
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Lord have mercy.
May the Lord enlighten you and your family and bring you peace.
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
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Alpo
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 03:11:02 PM » |
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While I don't believe that an individual Muslim (or Christian) can make an apology for some historical wrongdoings of another Muslim (or Christian) since we're all individuals here that was indeed a kind gesture. Thanks, fibonacci.  May Lord have mercy on us all. |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 03:11:29 PM by Alpo »
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 03:42:22 PM » |
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Lord, have mercy!
Thanks, but the Lord of heaven and earth does not dwell in temples built by hands. So it's not a super big deal.
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 03:43:03 PM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 04:03:40 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house. |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:03:59 PM by Jason.Wike »
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Ansgar
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 04:15:51 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house. Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples. |
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2012, 04:30:21 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house. Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples. Yes I know, my point was this church was originally a church, not originally a mosque as people usually say. Besides the fact that people shouldn't feel guilty for what people 1000 years ago did anyway, there's no reason to feel guilty about this. |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:33:15 PM by Jason.Wike »
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
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Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2012, 04:33:42 PM » |
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Lord, have mercy!
Thanks, but the Lord of heaven and earth does not dwell in temples built by hands. So it's not a super big deal.
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Ansgar
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2012, 04:41:56 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece Not to rain on the love parade but that thing right in the middle of the mosque is a pre-Muslim church, so its reallyyy different from Hagia Sophia, sorta like if you built an addon and veranda to your neighbor's house. Yes, and many early christian churches were once pagan temples. Yes I know, my point was this church was originally a church, not originally a mosque as people usually say. Besides the fact that people shouldn't feel guilty for what people 1000 years ago did anyway, there's no reason to feel guilty about this. Oh, alright, I misunderstood then. |
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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dzheremi
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 04:49:52 PM » |
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Yes. This is a nice gesture, and I thank you very much for it, Fibonacci, but at the same time I would rather focus on today's issues. A church in Turkey means nothing if the people who would go to it are driven from the land under the pretense of "insulting Turkishness" or what have you. Freedom of religion and conscience for all people are more valuable than any building. Let's focus on what is really important.
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Salpy
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Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 07:29:08 PM » |
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fibonacci
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 02:01:11 AM » |
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Thank you all for your very kind welcome!
Dzheremi, Hagia Sophia is one of the most important churchs to the Orthodox community. And an apology is long over due.
In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future. A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time. Right now, it's unfortunately a money-making museum....and not a place of worship.
However, I do agree we should address some of the current problems that are going on. I believe a lot of these conflicts are the result of economic pressures (created by the devil), which prevents individuals to gain deep knowledge about their own religion, other religions and to learn about history.
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dzheremi
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 02:27:30 AM » |
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Yeah, maybe, I don't know. It is a matter of degree. Some people on this board also think along similar lines, and I think economic pressures certainly play a role in world conflicts, no doubt. So it is good to have people from different faiths reaching out to one another like this. And if Hagia Sophia will be returned, it will be returned. That is with God, who is our only liberator. If it is returned, we will rejoice; if it is not returned, we will still rejoice, because the faith that built it still lives, even when the people who once served it have long since departed to their rest. |
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Gorazd
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 02:33:38 AM » |
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Right now, it's unfortunately a money-making museum....and not a place of worship.
There is an admission fee, but they don't really make any money through this, the money rather goes to the conservation of the buildings for which the museum administration charges that fee. |
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Balthasar
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Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 316
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 05:22:35 PM » |
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Hello everyone
600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..
Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic
he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque
His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion! I deeply apologize for my religion.
I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.
I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.
Thank your for your apologies, thank you for not following the examples of the first Muslim terrorist, Muhammad.  |
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Alpo
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 05:41:02 PM » |
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In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future. A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time.
Interesting. What makes you believe that way? Is this strictly a Shia belief or held more generally by Muslims? |
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Ansgar
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 05:44:26 PM » |
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In fact, in Islam, we believe that Constantinople will be liberated in the future. A lot of Muslims believe that this church will indeed be returned to the Christians during that time.
Interesting. What makes you believe that way? Is this strictly a Shia belief or held more generally by Muslims? I have read something similar. http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/06/mysterious-hagia-sophia-frightens-turks.html |
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 06:50:12 PM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece The Cordoba "mosque" was originally a Christian church, before the Moorish conquest of Spain. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Ansgar
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 04:57:09 AM » |
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The Lord gives and the Lord takes, may the Name of the Lord be praised. I must say that you, my friend, are better than I, so please allow me to humbly immitate you and apologize for hunting you out of Granada and stealing your Cordoba mosque. It's a masterpiece The Cordoba "mosque" was originally a Christian church, before the Moorish conquest of Spain. I wasn't claiming that the mosque in Cordoba was a case equal to that of Hagia Sophia. However, the fact still remains that the spanish rulers allowed a new church to be build inside the mosque while thousands of moors were forced to flee the Iberian Peninsula with many of those staying being forcefully converted to Christianity. I wasn't trying to start a discussion. |
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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ialmisry
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 10:32:58 AM » |
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Hello everyone
600 years ago something very inappropriate happened..
Sultan Mehmed did something very wrong and very unislamic
he stole your church Hagia Sophia and converted into a mosque
His actions were very wrong, they do not represent the true Islamic religion! I deeply apologize for my religion.
I pray that Lord willing, the Christians will get this church back.
I made this thread, to try to reach out to the orthodox community, to let them know that there are many people in the Muslim community who are very very upset what has happened in the past, and are working hard to fix these mistakes.
Welcome. As a Shia, I'm not sure how or why you should apologize for what Mehmet did. It is sort of like Orthodox apologizing for the Crusades. Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what madhhab of Shi'ism/line of imams do you subscribe to? As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other," to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian. For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 11:20:53 AM » |
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As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other,"
No doubt images of Ashura celebrations have something to do with it. For many who know nothing about Islam, that's the only thing that distinguishes Sunni Islam from the Shi'at 'Ali: The former are terrorists, the latter are sadomasochistic terrorists. Then there are those scary Iranians and Hizbullah who don't approve of the beacon of hope, peace and democracy that is our friend Israel. to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian. For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet.
This is my experience also. |
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fibonacci
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2012, 03:20:24 AM » |
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Welcome.
As a Shia, I'm not sure how or why you should apologize for what Mehmet did. It is sort of like Orthodox apologizing for the Crusades.
Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what madhhab of Shi'ism/line of imams do you subscribe to?
As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other," to which I point out that in my extensive personal experience with Muslims in and out of the Muslim world, Shi'ites are generally the most congenial to deal with as a Christian. For one thing, they take us seriously: they know that we have reasons why we believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, it is not that we are being stubborn in rejecting their Prophet.
Hi again, sorry for the late reply. I was raised as a 12er, and agree with most aspects of it. However, I'm more of a muslim that's open to all insightful and truthful knowledge -- I don't really have that 'group' mentality. |
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fibonacci
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2012, 03:37:08 AM » |
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As a sidenote to others, I've often heard the Shi'ites being characterized by others as the most radical Islamists by those who deal with Islam as "the Other,"
No doubt images of Ashura celebrations have something to do with it. For many who know nothing about Islam, that's the only thing that distinguishes Sunni Islam from the Shi'at 'Ali: The former are terrorists, the latter are sadomasochistic terrorists. Then there are those scary Iranians and Hizbullah who don't approve of the beacon of hope, peace and democracy that is our friend Israel. You're right about ashura and unfortunately there are some shias who treat it as an entertainment session-- and go overboard, making a huge ritual out of it. It should really be a time of quiet reflection, not a 'raving' ritual fest. About Israel, I can explain that aspect of it in another thread. But just note that... in Iran, the ancient Persian empire is obv a huge part of the school curriculum. So they're taught the indisputable facts, that under the command of Cyrus the Great, the Persian empire helped free all the Jews from the Babylons and let them resettle in the land of Israel. Furthermore, the persians helped the Jews rebuild the temple of Solomon. So the common consensus of the Iranian people, is that the Jews did resettle into their homeland, and did get their temple, and they did get the prophesied messiah-- which was Jesus. However, after a series of droughts and earthquake, they've left that region for Europe-- and that's where the disagreement starts. Furthermore, the Iranians don't really agree with the notion of eretz yisrael -- where some israelis claim that the borders should cover all the oil fields in the persian gulf area- so this is another major area of disagreement. |
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mabsoota
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2012, 04:00:08 AM » |
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interesting discussion. who is that guy in your picture, fibonacci; is he harvesting wheat? i have plenty of muslim friends and like to discuss belief and culture with them. |
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fibonacci
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2012, 04:09:04 AM » |
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interesting discussion. who is that guy in your picture, fibonacci; is he harvesting wheat? i have plenty of muslim friends and like to discuss belief and culture with them. likewise, feel free to post any questions you have on Islam in my other thread the avatar I have, is a picture of a statue of Cyrus the great ..tbh, I'm not sure if he's harvesting wheat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Biblehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YebB4nVw_Mg |
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« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:13:50 AM by fibonacci »
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Kerdy
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2012, 04:19:24 AM » |
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While I don't believe that an individual Muslim (or Christian) can make an apology for some historical wrongdoings of another Muslim (or Christian) since we're all individuals here that was indeed a kind gesture. Thanks, fibonacci. May Lord have mercy on us all. What Alpo said! |
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