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Author Topic: Marriage and Death!!!  (Read 1685 times) Average Rating: 0
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kelfar
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« on: May 06, 2012, 04:58:43 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 05:11:17 PM »

I've often heard marriage and death equated.   Wink
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 05:51:46 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK

Marriage is eternal, but things are different.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 12:48:26 AM »

How do you translate Marriage is Eternal after death?
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 12:50:55 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?
Marriage is eternal, but things are different.

I still don't get how this doesn't go against Christ's whole bit about no one being given in marriage at the resurrection.
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 02:17:20 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?
Marriage is eternal, but things are different.

I still don't get how this doesn't go against Christ's whole bit about no one being given in marriage at the resurrection.
What if instead of removing the bonds, Christ meant that everyone wound be bonded through Him?
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 05:37:05 AM »

I've often heard marriage and death equated.   Wink
My step father used to refer to weddings as vertical funerals.

I've often said my ex-wife has knocked at least a decade off my life, that that's just her.
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 08:58:20 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


This is an issue on which two perfectly Orthodox people can legitimately disagree.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2012, 02:59:26 PM »

Whatever your conclusion - be sure that marriage helps to reach heaven so maybe focus on the little time you have it here and leave the rest to God.
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2012, 03:23:49 PM »

John Meyendorff in his book "Marriage An Orthodox Perspective" wrote:


"Christian marriage is not only an earthly sexual union, but an eternal bond which will continue when our bodies will be "spiritual" and Christ will be "all in all."
pp. 15

Any comments or an explanation to the above text?

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 04:01:04 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 04:06:04 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


This is an issue on which two perfectly Orthodox people can legitimately disagree.

Only to a point. If a person says that there is sexual intercourse in heaven, he hops on the train to Heresyville.
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 04:06:56 PM »

John Meyendorff in his book "Marriage An Orthodox Perspective" wrote:


"Christian marriage is not only an earthly sexual union, but an eternal bond which will continue when our bodies will be "spiritual" and Christ will be "all in all."
pp. 15

Any comments or an explanation to the above text?



Not to be taken dogmatically.
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 04:07:35 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 04:21:41 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

But why? Because the marriage bond absolutely cannot be dissolved with death (and what does that mean?), or because a person has still been married multiple times?
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

But why? Because the marriage bond absolutely cannot be dissolved with death (and what does that mean?), or because a person has still been married multiple times?

I don't know. He doesn't really get into the underlying thinking/theology of marriage in the canonical letters. I'm just pointing out that for St. Basil apparently that allowing remarriage was a form of allowing polygamy.
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2012, 05:48:07 PM »

Because the two become ONE flesh.  Just as Christ and His Church are ONE.  When both die and reach the final Salvation, they will become one with Christ, and there will be no man nor woman nor husband or wife.  But while one remains alive, the marriage bond remains.  That is why additional marriage is not only polygamy, but also in some cases adultery.  The Church's tolerence is due to our weakness.  At lest this is how it was explained to me, and what I have come to believe.

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

But why? Because the marriage bond absolutely cannot be dissolved with death (and what does that mean?), or because a person has still been married multiple times?

I don't know. He doesn't really get into the underlying thinking/theology of marriage in the canonical letters. I'm just pointing out that for St. Basil apparently that allowing remarriage was a form of allowing polygamy.
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2012, 05:51:12 PM »

Because the two become ONE flesh.  Just as Christ and His Church are ONE.  When both die and reach the final Salvation, they will become one with Christ, and there will be no man nor woman nor husband or wife.  But while one remains alive, the marriage bond remains.  That is why additional marriage is not only polygamy, but also in some cases adultery.  The Church's tolerence is due to our weakness.  At lest this is how it was explained to me, and what I have come to believe.

Are you saying that we loose our individuality almost in a Buddhist sense?  I've never thought of it that way.  Food for thought. 
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 05:54:06 PM »

Because the two become ONE flesh.  Just as Christ and His Church are ONE.  When both die and reach the final Salvation, they will become one with Christ, and there will be no man nor woman nor husband or wife.  But while one remains alive, the marriage bond remains.  That is why additional marriage is not only polygamy, but also in some cases adultery.  The Church's tolerence is due to our weakness.  At lest this is how it was explained to me, and what I have come to believe.

Are you saying that we loose our individuality almost in a Buddhist sense?  I've never thought of it that way.  Food for thought. 

I have always understood it that we keep our individuality just as a lung remains a lung and a liver remains a liver.  We are just part of one body.  But I never really delved into the matter that deeply.
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2012, 05:55:53 PM »

Because the two become ONE flesh.  Just as Christ and His Church are ONE.  When both die and reach the final Salvation, they will become one with Christ, and there will be no man nor woman nor husband or wife.  But while one remains alive, the marriage bond remains.  That is why additional marriage is not only polygamy, but also in some cases adultery.  The Church's tolerence is due to our weakness.  At lest this is how it was explained to me, and what I have come to believe.


That's essentially my understanding as well. But since I had just cited St. Basil I wanted to be clear that that explanation is not explicitly found in him--just the consequences.
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2012, 12:04:04 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


This is an issue on which two perfectly Orthodox people can legitimately disagree.

Only to a point. If a person says that there is sexual intercourse in heaven, he hops on the train to Heresyville.

Of course, of course.
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2012, 12:04:04 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 04:40:35 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

Can't answer that question, but can say that St Basil disagrees with St John Chrysostom on this point. I side with the latter in most things.
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 10:30:50 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

Can't say that I've ever looked into how the Church handles polygamous converts, but an answer that seems to present itself is that second and third marriages in the absence of the first spouse are already considered a major concession (St. Basil: 3rd marriages are "defilements of the Church.  But we do not subject them to public condemnation, as being better than unrestrained fornication"). But in cases where the first spouse is still alive/present, the actual reason for the concession (human weakness) is absent, so it is not granted.

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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 11:04:13 AM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

The economia for polygamist converts is for the man to pick one of his wives to be his wife. The others he must not treat as wives, but sisters. If he were to expel them and not support them, at least in traditional tribal cultures, they would be unable to support themselves.
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »


Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

There is not much that can be done about a divorce.  What is past is past.  Polygamy is in the present.  You can fix it.  As I understand the canons, the converted polygamist must divorce all but one of his wives.  Unlike the divorced person, who it is thought will burn with lust and therefor commit greater sins, the "reformed" polygamist still has a spouse.  I never thought that this was very fair to the divorced spouses of the polygamist.  But, I suppose that the Church's allowal of a second marriage would accommodate them.
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 06:43:47 PM »

Christ is Risen! Truly, He is Risen!

Does death end marriage in the Orthodox tradition? Or marriage is eternal?



In Christ,
SBDK


Yes and no.

There is no marriage in the next, eternal life like we know it today. There may be some kind of relationship, but it will be quite different. The Church allows remarriage after the death of a spouse (to a point). If the Church viewed the bond as something eternal, it would absolutely not allow remarriage since that would be polygamy/polyandry.

Actually St. Basil - in one of the canonical letters which is the actual canonical basis of allowing 2nd and 3rd marriages - says just that. That it's a concession to human weakness, but it's still polygamy.

Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

Can't say that I've ever looked into how the Church handles polygamous converts, but an answer that seems to present itself is that second and third marriages in the absence of the first spouse are already considered a major concession (St. Basil: 3rd marriages are "defilements of the Church.  But we do not subject them to public condemnation, as being better than unrestrained fornication"). But in cases where the first spouse is still alive/present, the actual reason for the concession (human weakness) is absent, so it is not granted.



So there is a great human weakness involved when your spouse has deceased, and you should be permitted to become a polygamist; but when you have three wives - each with, say, three children by you - there is no legitimate basis to grant a concession for the man to continue to be married to two of those three women?  So two of his wives have been engaging in adultery with him, his children are illegitimate, and they have to believe that their parents were never married?  That situation elicits no compassion, but a man or woman having to not have sex for the rest of their lives does?  I think that the idea that it is in any way polygamy for a widow(er) to marry again is poppycock.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 06:43:47 PM »


Then why does the Church offer no economia, no concession, to polygamists who convert to Orthodoxy?

There is not much that can be done about a divorce.  What is past is past.  Polygamy is in the present.  You can fix it.  As I understand the canons, the converted polygamist must divorce all but one of his wives.  Unlike the divorced person, who it is thought will burn with lust and therefor commit greater sins, the "reformed" polygamist still has a spouse.  I never thought that this was very fair to the divorced spouses of the polygamist.  But, I suppose that the Church's allowal of a second marriage would accommodate them.

But I was responding to St. Basil's claim that any second marriage (including of a widow(er)) is polygamy itself.
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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2012, 02:29:14 PM »

I was just wondering about this myself. The Christians I've dealt with (mostly Protestants, one Roman Catholic) have generally maintained, on the basis of Matthew 22:30, that there is no marriage in heaven [they rarely distinguish between a disembodied state after death and the "resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come," which, if I understand Orthodox theology right, are different things]). Additionally, Fr Laurent of Orthodox Answers takes this position. OTOH, the OrthodoxWiki article on Holy Matrimony says "It serves to unite a woman and a man in eternal union before God..." and that "Christ declared the essential indissolvibility of marriage in the Gospel." It also says "For the Orthodox Christian, the marriage service (wedding) is the Church's formal recognition of the couple's unity, a created image of God's love which is eternal, unique, indivisible and unending." (emphases mine)

Quote
Only to a point. If a person says that there is sexual intercourse in heaven, he hops on the train to Heresyville.

Should this be taken to refer to the disembodied state of heaven in which the saints now reside, the life of the world to come, or both? And not to challenge you or say you're wrong, but just for my own edification and understanding, is this idea condemned in Scripture, by an Ecumenical Council, or simply rejected by the consensus fidelium?
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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2012, 05:04:14 PM »

I was just wondering about this myself. The Christians I've dealt with (mostly Protestants, one Roman Catholic) have generally maintained, on the basis of Matthew 22:30, that there is no marriage in heaven [they rarely distinguish between a disembodied state after death and the "resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come," which, if I understand Orthodox theology right, are different things]). Additionally, Fr Laurent of Orthodox Answers takes this position. OTOH, the OrthodoxWiki article on Holy Matrimony says "It serves to unite a woman and a man in eternal union before God..." and that "Christ declared the essential indissolvibility of marriage in the Gospel." It also says "For the Orthodox Christian, the marriage service (wedding) is the Church's formal recognition of the couple's unity, a created image of God's love which is eternal, unique, indivisible and unending." (emphases mine)

Quote
Only to a point. If a person says that there is sexual intercourse in heaven, he hops on the train to Heresyville.

Should this be taken to refer to the disembodied state of heaven in which the saints now reside, the life of the world to come, or both? And not to challenge you or say you're wrong, but just for my own edification and understanding, is this idea condemned in Scripture, by an Ecumenical Council, or simply rejected by the consensus fidelium?

Both.

And it is condemned by at least one Father, St. Gregory of Nyssa. I've not heard of it being taught by any of the fathers. Something does not have to be explicitly condemned to be wrong.
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2012, 05:21:13 PM »

Both.

And it is condemned by at least one Father, St. Gregory of Nyssa. I've not heard of it being taught by any of the fathers.

Thanks.

 
Something does not have to be explicitly condemned to be wrong.

True. And I wasn't saying you were wrong or even trying to suggest it honestly; just a noob to Orthodoxy, as my name suggests, and trying to learn all I can about the topic.
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2012, 08:44:45 PM »

John Meyendorff in his book "Marriage An Orthodox Perspective" wrote:


"Christian marriage is not only an earthly sexual union, but an eternal bond which will continue when our bodies will be "spiritual" and Christ will be "all in all."
pp. 15

Any comments or an explanation to the above text?



I personally believe that it is eternal.   The bond of matrimony will exist always.
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2012, 08:54:05 PM »

John Meyendorff in his book "Marriage An Orthodox Perspective" wrote:


"Christian marriage is not only an earthly sexual union, but an eternal bond which will continue when our bodies will be "spiritual" and Christ will be "all in all."
pp. 15

Any comments or an explanation to the above text?



I personally believe that it is eternal.   The bond of matrimony will exist always.

This is why it is important to choose one's spouse carefully.
Although there will be no marrying in heaven, no childbirth, and apparently no sexual attraction, married couples will recognize each other. I guess Mormons will be shocked to learn that.  Roll Eyes
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