OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 09:03:34 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Hypothetical Question  (Read 1996 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 08:47:35 AM »

Hypothetically, they are not sons of Adam.

According to the Fathers was dog-headed St. Christopher a Son of Adam or not?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 05:16:31 PM »

All creation fell because of Adam, not just his descendants.

We don't baptize, chismate, and commune all of creation.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 05:32:08 PM »

Interestingly, Father Thomas Hopko stated in his little book on Confession that sin has a cosmic effect.

Our personal sins, as little as they may appear to us, effect the entire cosmos ... the entire universe.

Would not the Holy Crucifixion and Holy Resurrection of Christ also have a cosmic and universal effect?

Call her what you want, but I agree with her agreement with Fr Hopko on this point. We messed up everything, and Christ fixes everything by becoming one of us. All of creation awaits to be renewed in the resurrection. I would agree that if they are capable of worshipping God, then it's possible that God has given them a means to do so, but the sacramental participation in the Church as we know and do isn't for sentient creatures capable of thought and reason. It's designed for humans, regardless of whether or not a particular human may have the capacity to fully understand what is going on.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 05:33:29 PM »

All creation fell because of Adam, not just his descendants.

We don't baptize, chismate, and commune all of creation.

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?  If so, and I believe that in the news thread from a while back about the Vatican astronomer who talked about aliens, such a claim was made and I'm not aware of anyone objecting to it, then why could we not baptize, chrismate, and commune beings from other planets so long as the Church believed they possessed those three aspects.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?

Saying that human nature contains those things and that they properly belong to human nature doesn't necessarily mean that anything having those qualities can't be anything other than human. We inherited our nature fom the one who corrupted all of creation, any hypothetical aliens didn't.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?

Saying that human nature contains those things and that they properly belong to human nature doesn't necessarily mean that anything having those qualities can't be anything other than human. We inherited our nature fom the one who corrupted all of creation, any hypothetical aliens didn't.

You may well be right.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 05:47:47 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,988


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 05:50:44 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

You're not alone.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2012, 05:53:06 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

The Church has always existed, even before there were humans. If the Angels can constitute the Church, then I would say no. All of creation is part of the Church, in some way. The Psalmist says "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord", so the whole universe worships God.

But only humans can participate in the Holy Mysteries and become deified.
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 05:53:25 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

It was a reference to the book of Romans. All of creation is corrupted because of the fall, which happened through us, which was fixed through us. This is why infants and mentally handicapped/disabled humans can participate in the sacraments, but a gorilla capable of thought and self expression through sign language can't.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 05:59:54 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

The Church has always existed, even before there were humans. If the Angels can constitute the Church, then I would say no. All of creation is part of the Church, in some way. The Psalmist says "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord", so the whole universe worships God.

But only humans can participate in the Holy Mysteries and become deified.

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

It was a reference to the book of Romans. All of creation is corrupted because of the fall, which happened through us, which was fixed through us. This is why infants and mentally handicapped/disabled humans can participate in the sacraments, but a gorilla capable of thought and self expression through sign language can't.

Yeah, I know the origin of the idea, I just don't see how this helps. But then it isn't the first time I've been confused  angel
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2012, 08:09:31 PM »

Yeah, I know the origin of the idea, I just don't see how this helps. But then it isn't the first time I've been confused  angel

Rom 8:20-23
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Basically that Christ's work of salvation as a man restores all of creation through mankind is the point I was trying to make.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
truthseeker32
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA- Denver
Posts: 381



« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2012, 02:16:39 AM »

This is slightly off topic, but I think Hitchens or Dawkins once stated that one of the things that may convince them to convert to Christianity would be if aliens from another world came to earth and were also aware of Christianity independent of having discovered it on earth.

Mormons believe that there are other planets all with human beings on them. I am not sure how the fall plays into that. Maybe the fall happened on a different planet?
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2012, 12:51:20 AM »

Please note forum policy:

On the Purpose of the forum:

Many Ukrainian Catholics refer to themselves as "Orthodox Christians." Such is the case with the big Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Pittsburgh where they use Church Slavonic. They use the terminology to such an extent that it took many immigrants a long time to realize that these "Orthodox churches" were not the same as the "Orthodox Church" in Old Country. In fact, even in old country many simple peasants supposedly did not realize the change had been made because the churches did not change any of the "forms" of Orthodoxy.

So basically by changing the rule, have we made this forum equally dedicated to those churches that refer to themselves as an Orthodox Church: The Orthodox-Catholic Churches (Eastern Catholics), the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the "Orthodox Church"(Chalcedonians), vagantes, etc.

I am not totally against this, but note that there are separate boards already for those of the "Byzantine/Greek Rite". I think it would be better to say in the rules what we mean by "the Orthodox Church". Otherwise, we could get into the same petty discussion, where someone asks what the Orthodox Church teaches, and a Greek Catholic often comes in, answers, and expects us to accept that his teaching is the "Orthodox Church's" position, etc. Someone replies to him that the "Byzantine Rite" isn't Orthodox, he points to the rule's vagueness, etc., and the confusion builds. Maybe this isn't bad though. Your call.



Just to be clear, there has not been any change in the forum's longstanding rules.  What was changed was an ambiguity that was leading to one poster misinterpreting the policy, even though there are other places which clearly state what the policy is and has been. This is one reason we have been discussing a revision and streamlining of the forum rules, so that such confusion will not exist.

This was a clarification I issued back in November:


To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.  It should be emphasized that it is the policy of this site that no one is required to affirm that any of the other groups are canonical or Orthodox, but rather the purpose of the broad approach is to allow broad discussion on topics that in academic discourse are labeled "Orthodox studies."

People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator (with Fr Chris's agreement)



Eastern Rite Catholics may have called themselves Orthodox for some time but regardless of nomenclature, they are not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups, such that a broad discussion forum about Orthodoxy would lead to discussion on topics concerning all three groups, and we wanted to create a place where all three would be welcome to post, within the limits of civil discourse.  We have no interest in broadening the scope to include Eastern Catholics, who are in submission to the Pope and have adopted many Roman Catholic innovations, or vagantes, who have no way of being measured or quantified.  We have to draw the line somewhere, and that is how we have chosen to draw it.  For discussion of Eastern Rite Catholicism, one could see the forum at http://www.byzcath.org.

Naturally, Byzantine Catholics and vagantes are welcome to post here, but they have to recognize that they are on an Orthodox forum, which does not accept that they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome."  Latin Catholics and Protestants and anyone else of good will is also welcome to post, as long as they understand the purpose of the forum and the boundaries.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios

In other words, JamesRottnek, you are not required to believe that we are Orthodox or canonical, but to try and dismiss an argument not related to inter/intra Orthodox topics by throwing out the label schismatic is not acceptable. Matters ecclesiological are really not pertinent to the present discussion.

Fr. Anastasios
Forum Owner
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »

So if aliens could be considered human to the Church, would they get a mean look because they follow the Ix'Nithian Calendar of Rylos IX?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2012, 07:04:28 PM »

So if aliens could be considered human to the Church, would they get a mean look because they follow the Ix'Nithian Calendar of Rylos IX?

PP

They would declare us heretics and schismatics as soon as they see our beards before they even get the chance to learn our calendar.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 07:04:45 PM by Melodist » Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,423



« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2012, 08:02:21 PM »


Hey, don't drag us into this dumb argument just because aliens built the pyramids...


They did not!   Grin Cheesy
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Tags: aliens 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 44 queries.