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Author Topic: Hypothetical Question  (Read 1998 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 09, 2012, 01:30:47 PM »

What if, in the rare chance, extra-terrestrials/aliens finally contacted humans and came to visit Earth. Imagine that other than physical appearance, they behaved and acted pretty much just like humans. If they showed an interest in Earth religions and wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, would we allow them to? Or would we still consider them less worthy then humans for some reason or reject them for some theological reason? Could they partake the Eucharist or was that only meant for humans? Could we even apply Orthodoxy to an entirely different species whom we know very little about and God might have already interacted with them in some way before? What do you think would happen? I imagine that this could possibly be an event large enough to trigger the next Ecumenical Council for us to decide on how to deal with this topic. In any case, how do you think this would all work out and what would the Church's stance be?
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 01:32:11 PM »

We received into the Church dog-people and giants. Why would we ignore the aliens?
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 02:38:27 PM »

1Cor 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We don't baptize anyting other than humans descended from Adam. How would aliens relate to the Chruch outside of the sacraments? I don't know, but if they are given the capacity to worship God, there must be a way for them to do so.
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

Are aliens created in the image of God ?
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 03:33:29 PM »

Oh, wow. That is a good question.  Shocked
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 03:47:13 PM »

A human is a being with a physical body, a soul, and a nous.  Consequently, an alien could be considered human for the purposes of the Church.  All creation fell because of Adam, not just his descendants.
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 03:48:15 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 03:50:42 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »

What if, in the rare chance, extra-terrestrials/aliens finally contacted humans and came to visit Earth. Imagine that other than physical appearance, they behaved and acted pretty much just like humans. If they showed an interest in Earth religions and wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, would we allow them to? Or would we still consider them less worthy then humans for some reason or reject them for some theological reason? Could they partake the Eucharist or was that only meant for humans? Could we even apply Orthodoxy to an entirely different species whom we know very little about and God might have already interacted with them in some way before? What do you think would happen? I imagine that this could possibly be an event large enough to trigger the next Ecumenical Council for us to decide on how to deal with this topic. In any case, how do you think this would all work out and what would the Church's stance be?
The Church's stance would be to not articulate a position until they are forced to do so, when what we call hypothetical becomes a reality.
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 03:55:55 PM »

When I visited the UFO Museum in Roswell recently (because you have to do touristy things when family come to visit from out of state, I suppose), one of the many examples of bad/good art found therein was a painting of a UFO hovering over a cathedral. I think if they came all that way and were interested in our churches, it'd be a bit rude not to open our doors to them, wouldn't it? To say nothing of the theological questions raised by the OP, I am reminded that in our liturgy (St. Basil) we do pray for the travelers, and I can't think of any that might better apply to than those who have traveled light years to see what we're all about. Wink

But seriously, I don't know. In a religion where we have great saints like St. George who slew dragons, I would think that we are not bound by scientific possibilities, fossil records, SETI, etc. All creation is to bow down before the Lord, the Creator of all things both seen and unseen...
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 04:09:35 PM »

What if scenarios can be very entertaining as they are not logical but purely hypothetical.  Roll Eyes

Do not worry.

Father Seraphim of Platina, may his memory be eternal, has taught that aliens are diabolic.
Just be sure that you have extra holy water on hand.
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2012, 04:13:30 PM »

What if scenarios can be very entertaining as they are not logical but purely hypothetical.  Roll Eyes

Do not worry.

Father Seraphim of Platina, may his memory be eternal, has taught that aliens are diabolic.
Just be sure that you have extra holy water on hand.



And who says hypotheticals aren't logical?  They often give us new insights into what we believe.
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 04:17:40 PM »

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Father Seraphim of Platina, may his memory be eternal, has taught that aliens are diabolic.

I have always thought that he talked about the things which people thought were aliens, UFO's etc. not necessarily aliens themselves.
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2012, 04:27:17 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.

Couldn't we just baptize them?
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2012, 04:28:50 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.

Couldn't we just baptize them?

Excellent idea.

If the alien were to be a demon, he would be properly exorcised by the baptismal exorcisms. Smiley Poof.
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2012, 04:33:45 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.

Couldn't we just baptize them?

Excellent idea.

If the alien were to be a demon, he would be properly exorcised by the baptismal exorcisms. Smiley Poof.

Wait, if he was a demon and he was exorcised wouldn't he then tecnically dissapear? Am I completely missing the point here?  
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2012, 04:35:30 PM »

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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2012, 04:40:12 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.

Couldn't we just baptize them?

Excellent idea.

If the alien were to be a demon, he would be properly exorcised by the baptismal exorcisms. Smiley Poof.

Wait, if he was a demon and he was exorcised wouldn't he then tecnically dissapear? Am I completely missing the point here?  

I suppose he would disappear. That is why I typed: "Poof."

Either that or he/they would request to be sent into swine and then cascade off the cliff into the sea.
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2012, 04:41:02 PM »



Why is St. Christopher depicted as a "dog-face."
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 04:43:27 PM »

My thoughts are that I find it strange to believe that God would allow a sentient species capable of worshipping Him to go this long without working out a plan of salvation for them. What if God has already intervened in their world before and left them with a plan for salvation? Maybe teaching them Orthodoxy--which is our plan for salvation--would do more harm to them than good. For all we know, one of their native religions could be a religion that God worked out precisely for them just as Orthodoxy was made precisely for us.

Unless their religion was Orthodoxy, it would not be the truth, and consequently - unless God has become a liar - could not be from Him.  Besides, this same argument could be applied to any of countless groups of human beings on Earth, who have never, ever heard of Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity.

Couldn't we just baptize them?

Precisely what I was thinking; of course baptism would require proper indoctrination into the faith, followed by chrismation and the Eucharist, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 04:53:26 PM »

I've been balking at pointing this out for months, but your approach JamesR is the royal road to the RCC.

After all the hypotheticals and seeing you actually bring up the "law of the excluded middle" as something having bearing on anything outside the poverty of certain systems of logic, I had to say it.

You are a born scholastic.

Not saying that is a bad thing . . .



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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »

Why is St. Christopher depicted as a "dog-face."

Due to a typo his place of origin "Cananeus" was miswritten as "Canineus" - "dog-like".

IMO that icon clearly shows the  stance on the Church Fathers on the non-human sentient races.
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 08:48:35 PM »

What if, in the rare chance, extra-terrestrials/aliens finally contacted humans and came to visit Earth. Imagine that other than physical appearance, they behaved and acted pretty much just like humans. If they showed an interest in Earth religions and wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, would we allow them to? Or would we still consider them less worthy then humans for some reason or reject them for some theological reason? Could they partake the Eucharist or was that only meant for humans? Could we even apply Orthodoxy to an entirely different species whom we know very little about and God might have already interacted with them in some way before? What do you think would happen? I imagine that this could possibly be an event large enough to trigger the next Ecumenical Council for us to decide on how to deal with this topic. In any case, how do you think this would all work out and what would the Church's stance be?

Some say that all aliens are demons.   There is an entire culture on youtube and the internet about aliens being demons.  I don't know what I personally believe, but some of the videos are pretty crazy, some make sense.   I don't personally believe in ET's from outer space.

Hypothetically, they are not sons of Adam.
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2012, 10:02:14 PM »

but your approach JamesR is the royal road to the RCC.

I do have to admit that the Old Catholic Church sometimes seems appealing to me, seeing that I cannot accept Papal Infallibility. It interests me because the Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.



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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2012, 10:19:48 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?
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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2012, 10:32:52 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

Don't tell James that rationality and reason comes from the Devil.
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2012, 10:41:41 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?
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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2012, 11:04:41 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

And the logical (Western?) explanation is that they are explorers from a highly advanced civilization with nothing better to do than probe rednecks and put messages in cornfields?
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2012, 11:07:54 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

And the logical (Western?) explanation is that they are explorers from a highly advanced civilization with nothing better to do than probe rednecks and put messages in cornfields?

In all fairness to that viewpoint, if aliens view themselves as highly advanced beings - when compared to us - it really wouldn't be any different to them than how we poke and prod animals to learn about them.
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2012, 11:13:37 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2012, 11:21:54 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2012, 11:32:51 PM »

Father Seraphim of Platina, may his memory be eternal, has taught that aliens are diabolic.

I don't think that's precisely accurate. As I understand it, he taught that unexplainable UFOs are illusions or phenomena created by demons for the reason of distracting people and essentially directing their spiritual energies into ufology and alien paraphernalia, rather than searching for the truth and finding Christ. Maybe it's six of one and half-dozen of the other, but there is a distinction IMO.

To the OP, I personally don't believe there are other sentient beings out there. Rare Earth Hypothesis and all that. Certainly there are none skimming the skies of our humble planet.

But for argument's sake, I would say their salvation would be wrought the same way as the rest of Creation—by Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

Human disobedience corrupted the Cosmos. For this reason, God does not need a different plan of salvation for every other sort of creature. Christ did not come as a dog to save dogs, or as a juniper bush to save juniper bushes. He came as a Man, and by God becoming Matter, all Matter was transfigured.

All of the Cosmos will be finally and ultimately reconciled to God when the New Heaven and the New Earth are once again joined at the end of time. This includes the dogs and the juniper bushes, as well as the astrobiology.

Perhaps the Church could invent some kind of rite for sentient non-humans to express their need to feel a part of the salvation of the universe, as a pastoral measure. But I think telling them they are guiltless in the matter would be pretty nice to hear. To baptize an alien into the Church would be like muzzling your cat because your dog is biting people. The aliens haven't caused the universe to decay, so they have no reason to be part of the Church.
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2012, 11:55:17 PM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

Well just to clarify (don't know if there was playful sarcasm in your statement) the argument made by the people on these claims are that:
Demons = Demons (or devils sometimes)
Aliens = Demons but just misinterpreted as UFO's & ET's. etc.

Basically that all the time that people believe that Aliens are just "visitors from space", they were really just demons that the person misunderstood.

The videos & things I've read are "interesting" on the subject.  I don't personally condemn or condone what they are saying.   At least you can't accuse me of not ever bringing you to the "weird part of the internet".  Smiley 
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2012, 12:25:40 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2012, 12:29:09 AM »

Interestingly, Father Thomas Hopko stated in his little book on Confession that sin has a cosmic effect.

Our personal sins, as little as they may appear to us, effect the entire cosmos ... the entire universe.

Would not the Holy Crucifixion and Holy Resurrection of Christ also have a cosmic and universal effect?
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 12:30:16 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?

As I said, schismatic
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2012, 12:33:31 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?

As I said, schismatic

If name calling makes you feel superior ...

However, it is very distracting and derails our conversations when you continually revert to name calling.
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2012, 12:35:17 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?

As I said, schismatic

If name calling makes you feel superior ...

However, it is very distracting and derails our conversations when you continually revert to name calling.

I was merely saying you aren't of the Orthodox Church, but of a schismatic sect, as JamesR seemed to think otherwise; and I don't consider it name calling to apply a label correctly.
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 12:35:52 AM »

Interestingly, Father Thomas Hopko stated in his little book on Confession that sin has a cosmic effect.

Our personal sins, as little as they may appear to us, effect the entire cosmos ... the entire universe.

Would not the Holy Crucifixion and Holy Resurrection of Christ also have a cosmic and universal effect?


Back on topic ...

So, did Christ die once for all? Or did He not?
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2012, 12:40:20 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?

As I said, schismatic

If name calling makes you feel superior ...

However, it is very distracting and derails our conversations when you continually revert to name calling.

I was merely saying you aren't of the Orthodox Church, but of a schismatic sect, as JamesR seemed to think otherwise; and I don't consider it name calling to apply a label correctly.

Goodness sakes!

Father Anastasios and I are members of the same Holy Church, the Holy Orthodox Church.
We are both members of GOC/HOTCA.

Are you going to call Father Anastasios a schismatic too and continue to post on his board. He is the webmaster.

Please get back on topic, and stop this nonsense.

Did Christ did for all? Did His Holy Death redeem the entire universe or only Earthly beings called "humans?"
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« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2012, 12:44:25 AM »

Catholics have more of an emphasis on reason and rationality whereas the Orthodox just see it as being the work of the Devil.

Come on, really?

For crying out loud, we have Orthodox in this thread saying that UFOs are demons trying to deceive us. Need I say more?

If you are referring to what I stated, I do not exactly believe that.  I just said that "some people say it".   There is a tremendous culture of people who believe it though, who I'd consider very educated.

Here's just a small link to a video on the subject.  Credible?  You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt_nghDG2c

Actually I think he might have been referring to Maria, who is actually schismatic and not Orthodox, and her reference to Fr. Seraphim Rose's view on the matter.

Though, I have encountered WAY more Protestants who believe that demons are devils (myself having been one at one point) than Orthodox who believe the same.

I am an Orthodox Christian under GOC/HOTCA. Except for the Julian calendar and the heresy of Ecumenism, we believe in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, have a continuation of Apostolic Succession, and maintain the unchanging Holy Faith as given by Christ to His Holy Apostles and to us.

I only referenced Father Seraphim Rose to see what others believe.

Personally, I believe that we on this earth are terribly self-centered to think that we are the only "humans" that God has ever created.
God created this huge universe with an incredible diversity of life.
Why could there not be reasonable beings on other planets in other galaxies?

Has anyone read the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
In Perelandra, the second book of his trilogy, a new "Adam" and a new "Eve" live on Venus. Will this "alien" couple fail to pass the test as did the earthly Adam and Eve? Would they need a Redeemer-God or did Christ redeem the entire universe with His Holy Crucifixion and Resurrection?

As I said, schismatic

If name calling makes you feel superior ...

However, it is very distracting and derails our conversations when you continually revert to name calling.

I was merely saying you aren't of the Orthodox Church, but of a schismatic sect, as JamesR seemed to think otherwise; and I don't consider it name calling to apply a label correctly.

Goodness sakes!

Father Anastasios and I are members of the same Holy Church, the Holy Orthodox Church.
We are both members of GOC/HOTCA.

Are you going to call Father Anastasios a schismatic too and continue to post on his board. He is the webmaster.

Please get back on topic, and stop this nonsense.

Did Christ did for all? Did His Holy Death redeem the entire universe or only Earthly beings called "humans?"

Yes.  Fr. Anastasios is a schismatic.
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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2012, 01:10:46 AM »

Quote
...No, I am not a priest. We no longer need a priest thanks to Jesus Christ, He is our final Priest. It is by His sacrifice and resurrection we have direct access to God, I have a personal relationship with Him, I do not have any official job or title concerning the Church...'

This was the first comment made by the guy who made that youtube video. He clearly is not an Orthodox Christian and seems to be caught up with certain Protestant heresies. I do not think that listening to an apostate about theology is really a good idea; nor do I see him as a credible source.

Either way, someone is being pretty rude to Maria. If you can accept Oriental Orthodox as being fully Orthodox and non-schismatic, then how come Maria is not considered Orthodox just because of the calendar? Or is there something more to this that I do not understand?
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« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2012, 01:14:51 AM »

Father Anastasios and I are members of the same Holy Church, the Holy Orthodox Church.
We are both members of GOC/HOTCA.
Aha! Now everything you post makes so much more sense now.

Thank you!
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« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2012, 02:39:46 AM »

Either way, someone is being pretty rude to Maria. If you can accept Oriental Orthodox as being fully Orthodox and non-schismatic, then how come Maria is not considered Orthodox just because of the calendar? Or is there something more to this that I do not understand?

Hey, don't drag us into this dumb argument just because aliens built the pyramids...



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« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2012, 03:59:47 AM »

Quote
...No, I am not a priest. We no longer need a priest thanks to Jesus Christ, He is our final Priest. It is by His sacrifice and resurrection we have direct access to God, I have a personal relationship with Him, I do not have any official job or title concerning the Church...'

This was the first comment made by the guy who made that youtube video. He clearly is not an Orthodox Christian and seems to be caught up with certain Protestant heresies. I do not think that listening to an apostate about theology is really a good idea; nor do I see him as a credible source.

Either way, someone is being pretty rude to Maria. If you can accept Oriental Orthodox as being fully Orthodox and non-schismatic, then how come Maria is not considered Orthodox just because of the calendar? Or is there something more to this that I do not understand?

Actually, I've made it fairly clear at many times on this board, that I do not accept the OO as being the Church.
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 08:47:35 AM »

Hypothetically, they are not sons of Adam.

According to the Fathers was dog-headed St. Christopher a Son of Adam or not?
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 05:16:31 PM »

All creation fell because of Adam, not just his descendants.

We don't baptize, chismate, and commune all of creation.
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 05:32:08 PM »

Interestingly, Father Thomas Hopko stated in his little book on Confession that sin has a cosmic effect.

Our personal sins, as little as they may appear to us, effect the entire cosmos ... the entire universe.

Would not the Holy Crucifixion and Holy Resurrection of Christ also have a cosmic and universal effect?

Call her what you want, but I agree with her agreement with Fr Hopko on this point. We messed up everything, and Christ fixes everything by becoming one of us. All of creation awaits to be renewed in the resurrection. I would agree that if they are capable of worshipping God, then it's possible that God has given them a means to do so, but the sacramental participation in the Church as we know and do isn't for sentient creatures capable of thought and reason. It's designed for humans, regardless of whether or not a particular human may have the capacity to fully understand what is going on.
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 05:33:29 PM »

All creation fell because of Adam, not just his descendants.

We don't baptize, chismate, and commune all of creation.

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?  If so, and I believe that in the news thread from a while back about the Vatican astronomer who talked about aliens, such a claim was made and I'm not aware of anyone objecting to it, then why could we not baptize, chrismate, and commune beings from other planets so long as the Church believed they possessed those three aspects.
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?

Saying that human nature contains those things and that they properly belong to human nature doesn't necessarily mean that anything having those qualities can't be anything other than human. We inherited our nature fom the one who corrupted all of creation, any hypothetical aliens didn't.
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »

Yes, but haven't the Fathers normally understood humans as being creatures with a physical body, a soul, and a nouse?

Saying that human nature contains those things and that they properly belong to human nature doesn't necessarily mean that anything having those qualities can't be anything other than human. We inherited our nature fom the one who corrupted all of creation, any hypothetical aliens didn't.

You may well be right.
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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 05:47:47 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...
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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 05:50:44 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

You're not alone.
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« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2012, 05:53:06 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

The Church has always existed, even before there were humans. If the Angels can constitute the Church, then I would say no. All of creation is part of the Church, in some way. The Psalmist says "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord", so the whole universe worships God.

But only humans can participate in the Holy Mysteries and become deified.
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« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 05:53:25 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

It was a reference to the book of Romans. All of creation is corrupted because of the fall, which happened through us, which was fixed through us. This is why infants and mentally handicapped/disabled humans can participate in the sacraments, but a gorilla capable of thought and self expression through sign language can't.
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« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 05:59:54 PM »

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

The Church has always existed, even before there were humans. If the Angels can constitute the Church, then I would say no. All of creation is part of the Church, in some way. The Psalmist says "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord", so the whole universe worships God.

But only humans can participate in the Holy Mysteries and become deified.

So... Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe, and the fall left all of creation fallen ("groaning"), but only humans can be part of the Church?  This just keeps getting more difficult for me to understand...

It was a reference to the book of Romans. All of creation is corrupted because of the fall, which happened through us, which was fixed through us. This is why infants and mentally handicapped/disabled humans can participate in the sacraments, but a gorilla capable of thought and self expression through sign language can't.

Yeah, I know the origin of the idea, I just don't see how this helps. But then it isn't the first time I've been confused  angel
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« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2012, 08:09:31 PM »

Yeah, I know the origin of the idea, I just don't see how this helps. But then it isn't the first time I've been confused  angel

Rom 8:20-23
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Basically that Christ's work of salvation as a man restores all of creation through mankind is the point I was trying to make.
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« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2012, 02:16:39 AM »

This is slightly off topic, but I think Hitchens or Dawkins once stated that one of the things that may convince them to convert to Christianity would be if aliens from another world came to earth and were also aware of Christianity independent of having discovered it on earth.

Mormons believe that there are other planets all with human beings on them. I am not sure how the fall plays into that. Maybe the fall happened on a different planet?
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2012, 12:51:20 AM »

Please note forum policy:

On the Purpose of the forum:

Many Ukrainian Catholics refer to themselves as "Orthodox Christians." Such is the case with the big Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Pittsburgh where they use Church Slavonic. They use the terminology to such an extent that it took many immigrants a long time to realize that these "Orthodox churches" were not the same as the "Orthodox Church" in Old Country. In fact, even in old country many simple peasants supposedly did not realize the change had been made because the churches did not change any of the "forms" of Orthodoxy.

So basically by changing the rule, have we made this forum equally dedicated to those churches that refer to themselves as an Orthodox Church: The Orthodox-Catholic Churches (Eastern Catholics), the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the "Orthodox Church"(Chalcedonians), vagantes, etc.

I am not totally against this, but note that there are separate boards already for those of the "Byzantine/Greek Rite". I think it would be better to say in the rules what we mean by "the Orthodox Church". Otherwise, we could get into the same petty discussion, where someone asks what the Orthodox Church teaches, and a Greek Catholic often comes in, answers, and expects us to accept that his teaching is the "Orthodox Church's" position, etc. Someone replies to him that the "Byzantine Rite" isn't Orthodox, he points to the rule's vagueness, etc., and the confusion builds. Maybe this isn't bad though. Your call.



Just to be clear, there has not been any change in the forum's longstanding rules.  What was changed was an ambiguity that was leading to one poster misinterpreting the policy, even though there are other places which clearly state what the policy is and has been. This is one reason we have been discussing a revision and streamlining of the forum rules, so that such confusion will not exist.

This was a clarification I issued back in November:


To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.  It should be emphasized that it is the policy of this site that no one is required to affirm that any of the other groups are canonical or Orthodox, but rather the purpose of the broad approach is to allow broad discussion on topics that in academic discourse are labeled "Orthodox studies."

People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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Eastern Rite Catholics may have called themselves Orthodox for some time but regardless of nomenclature, they are not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups, such that a broad discussion forum about Orthodoxy would lead to discussion on topics concerning all three groups, and we wanted to create a place where all three would be welcome to post, within the limits of civil discourse.  We have no interest in broadening the scope to include Eastern Catholics, who are in submission to the Pope and have adopted many Roman Catholic innovations, or vagantes, who have no way of being measured or quantified.  We have to draw the line somewhere, and that is how we have chosen to draw it.  For discussion of Eastern Rite Catholicism, one could see the forum at http://www.byzcath.org.

Naturally, Byzantine Catholics and vagantes are welcome to post here, but they have to recognize that they are on an Orthodox forum, which does not accept that they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome."  Latin Catholics and Protestants and anyone else of good will is also welcome to post, as long as they understand the purpose of the forum and the boundaries.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios

In other words, JamesRottnek, you are not required to believe that we are Orthodox or canonical, but to try and dismiss an argument not related to inter/intra Orthodox topics by throwing out the label schismatic is not acceptable. Matters ecclesiological are really not pertinent to the present discussion.

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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »

So if aliens could be considered human to the Church, would they get a mean look because they follow the Ix'Nithian Calendar of Rylos IX?

PP
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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2012, 07:04:28 PM »

So if aliens could be considered human to the Church, would they get a mean look because they follow the Ix'Nithian Calendar of Rylos IX?

PP

They would declare us heretics and schismatics as soon as they see our beards before they even get the chance to learn our calendar.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 07:04:45 PM by Melodist » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2012, 08:02:21 PM »


Hey, don't drag us into this dumb argument just because aliens built the pyramids...


They did not!   Grin Cheesy
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