Big Chris
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I live by the river where the old gods still dream
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« on: June 08, 2012, 08:18:04 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible?
Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
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Tasting is Believing
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 08:42:21 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Because the Church has always been visible. Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible? The Book of Acts? St. Paul's epistles? Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
Acts 19.1-12 - "...When they had heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" Acts 8.14-18 - "Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit" |
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 08:57:03 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible?
Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
According to the NT, the Church is the Body of Christ, and He is not the invisible man. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 09:00:40 PM » |
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JamesR
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 10:33:33 PM » |
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The 'invisible' or 'spiritual' Church is flawed ecclesiology because humans are both physical and spiritual creatures. If a Church is purely 'invisible' or 'spiritual' without any physical element to it at all, then it is irrelevent and inaccessible to humanity because humans are physical creatures as well as spiritual. We demonstrate our spirituality through our physical nature and become spiritual through our physical actions; for humans, the two elements--physical and spiritual--come together and are co-dependent on one another for our salvation. Even C.S. Lewis realized this truth when he referred to humans as 'amphibians'. So logically, if there is an 'invisible/spiritual' Church without a physical element to it, then it is entirely irrelevent to us since we are also physical. Therefore, in order for the Church to be accessible to humans, it must be both physical and spiritual just as we are.
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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Nicene
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 10:44:08 PM » |
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The visible church is displayed when we see Paul speaking to timothy on one how ought conduct themselves in the ekklesia (Ie Assembly, Ie Church). It's demonstrated when we see the apostles gather at Jeruselum to discuss how gentiles ought enter into the church. Clearly the church is visible.
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Thank you.
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Peter J
Formerly PJ
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 10:56:09 PM » |
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As a lifelong Catholic, I've often heard talk of both "the visible church" and "the invisible church", but I never had a very clear sense of an official Catholic stance on this issue. (Granted, you're probably not directing those questions toward Catholics.)
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 11:07:25 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible?
Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
1. When even the book of Revelation demonstrates the visible Church, how can you even ask the question? 2. Everywhere. It is the "invisible" Church that you will have a hard time demonstrating, where even the invisible is spoken of in visible terms. 3. Several places. But try this: 1 John 2.20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. |
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Peter J
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2012, 03:03:17 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible?
Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
1. When even the book of Revelation demonstrates the visible Church, how can you even ask the question? 2. Everywhere. It is the "invisible" Church that you will have a hard time demonstrating, where even the invisible is spoken of in visible terms. FWIW, growing up Catholic the impression I got was that the visible Church meant Catholics, whereas the invisible Church included non-Catholic Christians as well. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2012, 03:44:38 PM » |
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It seems as though many Catholics today hold an invisible church idea that is a modification of "The Church Triumphant" to include non-Catholics on earth.
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 04:16:36 PM » |
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Can someone please explain to me how invisible church ecclesiology is flawed?
Along this same line, please explain where in the NT the visible church is - well - visible?
Where in the NT is chrismation demonstrated as leading to incorporation into the church?
1. When even the book of Revelation demonstrates the visible Church, how can you even ask the question? 2. Everywhere. It is the "invisible" Church that you will have a hard time demonstrating, where even the invisible is spoken of in visible terms. FWIW, growing up Catholic the impression I got was that the visible Church meant Catholics, whereas the invisible Church included non-Catholic Christians as well. |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:17:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Peter J
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 04:42:45 PM » |
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NicholasMyra and PtA,
Sorry, my post was poorly stated.
I guess, to cut right to the chase, I'm not clear on how FatherHLL defines "visible Church" and "invisible Church".
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 04:58:33 PM » |
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NicholasMyra and PtA,
Sorry, my post was poorly stated.
I guess, to cut right to the chase, I'm not clear on how FatherHLL defines "visible Church" and "invisible Church".
The invisible church idea is this: There are many ecclesial bodies, Orthodox, Catholic, and various Protestant bodies. Each of these bodies contains some people who are members of Christ's body, the real church, which is called the invisible church. Membership in a given ecclesial body does not indicate membership in the invisible church. Here is a wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_church |
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:59:44 PM by NicholasMyra »
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