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Author Topic: Why the hostility?  (Read 2721 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jennifer
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« on: November 09, 2004, 01:33:06 PM »

First, I want to thank you guys for bearing with me during my time of 'discernment.'  

I told someone that I feel like a kid in the middle of a nasty custody battle.  

Conversion is a personal choice.  Why can't people leave it at that?  

I wrote on the other thread how my former RC pastor gets angry with me when I think about converting.  I don't understand the anger.  I don't understand why my considering conversion makes a Catholic angry.  

I'm sure that everyone who has converted has dealt with this.   How did you deal with it?  Did you ignore it?  I suppose it means severing some relationships.  
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2004, 01:44:41 PM »

"Conversion is a personal choice.  Why can't people leave it at that?"

Yes and no.  The Church is a community and both the Catholics and Orthodox believe their Church to be the True Church.  Hence, you are going to find people that are upset that you are leaving what they perceive to be the True Church.

Anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2004, 02:24:09 PM »

Yes, but it's not their business.  

I think that some people think that when someone converts 'out' they are attacking their faith.  If someone wants to leave my Church, then maybe there's something wrong with my church.  

One thing I've noticed is that every religion claims that only the uneducated people convert 'out' but the most educated people convert 'in.'  Everybody can't be right about that.  

I think a lot of really smart, educated people convert 'in' to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.  

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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2004, 02:33:11 PM »

Jennifer,

"Yes, but it's not their business."

According to whom? According to the Church, it IS their business, especially if they are a priest.  Every Orthodox or Catholic has an obligation to "evangelize" others and share and propogate the faith. Hence if someone is leaving, it is everyone in the community's business to try and stop it.  The problem arises when people get rude, pushy, don't take no for an answer, etc.

I agree with your other points.

Anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2004, 03:19:56 PM »

I think that some people think that when someone converts 'out' they are attacking their faith.  If someone wants to leave my Church, then maybe there's something wrong with my church.

These are the same people who look at the number they have brought into the faith as a litmus test of the legitimacy of their own faith, I think.  What others think about my faith has nothing necessarily to do with me if I am fully pursuaded.

Quote
One thing I've noticed is that every religion claims that only the uneducated people convert 'out' but the most educated people convert 'in.'  Everybody can't be right about that.

True...it goes both ways.  There are folks who leave their confessions for intellectual reasons (doctrinal difference brought about by much deliberation), and those who leave for emotional reasons ("The pastor/priest wasn't nice, the choir is bad, the service was too long").  There are people who care enough to pursue what they believe to be a fuller expression of the Truth, and there are those who don't care hardly at all and go where they're most comfortable.  Both kinds exist in Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Hinduism, you name it.

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I think a lot of really smart, educated people convert 'in' to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
 

No argument here!  Grin Wink
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2004, 06:52:24 PM »

I think a lot of really smart, educated people convert 'in' to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.  

And unfortunately, a lot of really smart people can't seem to convert 'out' of Mormonism.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2004, 08:02:42 PM »

I think it would be really hard to walk away from Mormonism.  

Did anyone see the South Park with the Mormons?  dumb...dumb...dumb...Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2004, 09:07:03 PM »

Their beliefs are wacky, but the Mormons I've met have been very good people.
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2004, 11:09:46 PM »

I think it would be really hard to walk away from Mormonism.  

Did anyone see the South Park with the Mormons?  dumb...dumb...dumb...Smiley

That episode was hilarious.
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2004, 01:22:25 AM »

I've known a few Mormons in my life.  I don't buy the story, but they're very decent, family-oriented people.  Of course, so are a lot of Muslims who I know at school, not to mention Jews that I work and train with.  I'm not going to shout condemnation and hellfire at them, but I'll let them know what I think if they ask me about religious differences (fortunately, in the military, it's pretty much taboo to talk about things like religion, because there's so much Equal Opportunity litigiousness about, so we never go there).
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2004, 01:53:16 AM »

If I was forced to choose a religion outside of Orthodoxy or even Catholicism, I think it would be mormonism because they do so much fun stuff!!! They do everything I like, they got the cool dances, the basketball leagues, get togethors after church & stake potlucks, good looking ladies, all the geneology stuff & don't forgot the occasional trippy temple experiences with all the cool garments & secret handshakes...   Cheesy

Now compare that to probably the most boring religion in the world which would be Jehovah's Witness'. Imagine never celebrating anything in life at all & everthing is a satanic conspiracy, even pledging to the flag and voting, & best of all you can only have communion maybe like once a year.. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2004, 11:42:47 PM »

Nacho:

Before you would consider Mormonism, it might be a good idea to consider whether their teachings are consistent with Biblical teaching and the Holy Traditions of the Apostolic Fathers.  We were first called "Christians" in Antioch.  Please give  consideration to  some of the information I located regarding mormonism.   As a true Holy Scripture/Holy Tradition orthodox Christian, this information might be prove to be insightful:

"Many today are under the false impression that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination, when in actuality, Mormon beliefs are not only unbiblical, but anti-Christian. Below are the highlights of what Mormons believe concerning their source of authority, the Trinity, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, and heaven and hell:

1. Source of Authority. Mormonism teaches that the canon of Scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. They have three sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contain God's revelations -- the Book of Mormon 2 (changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, Mormons follow the teachings of these three books even when they contradict the Bible. For example, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." Then whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures (The Maze of Mormonism, p. 131). Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. [e.g. "The Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts" (Articles of Faith No. 8, Ensign, January 1989, pp. 25, 27).

2. Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).  

3. God.  In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3

4. Christ. Mormonism acknowledges the divinity of Christ, but as noted above, Mormon doctrine on what constitutes divinity falls seriously short of the Biblical standard. Mormonism teaches that Jesus, Lucifer, and all the demons, as well as all mankind, are actually all spirit brothers and sisters, born in the spirit world as spirit babies to our man-god Heavenly Father and his goddess wives. Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.4

5. Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, a distinction is drawn between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. As LDS Apostle Marion G. Romney stated: "The Holy Ghost is a person, a spirit, the third member of the Godhead" (Ensign, May 1977, pp. 43-44). The sixth LDS prophet, Joseph F. Smith, explains that the Holy Spirit is not a person but rather an impersonal force: "You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe" (Mormon Doctrine, McConkie, pp. 752-753).

6. Sin. In Mormon theology, it is not quite clear how the first humans, Adam and Eve, came to live on this earth and received bodies, but somehow they did and began the process of human procreation, whereby bodies are produced for their spirit children. But at the very beginning of the process of human generation, sin entered necessarily. The earthly bodies of Adam and Eve were intended to be immortal tabernacles for their spirits, "but it was necessary for them to possess through mortality and be redeemed through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ that the fullness of life might come." Therefore, they disobeyed God's commands. Since the fall of man was necessary, it became necessary for men to disobey God in order to do His will. Adam's fall, thereby, was a fall "upward."5 Concerning the transmission of sin to Adam's posterity, Mormons take a negative position -- they believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Having rejected the doctrine of the imputation of the guilt of sin, Latter-Day Saints likewise repudiate the transmission of inherent corruption or original sin.

7. Salvation. Mormon theology teaches that the atonement of Christ was essential to our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is not sufficient. Christ's shed blood on the cross provides for universal resurrection of all people, but does not pay for personal sins; according to Mormonism, only Christ's blood shed in the Garden of Gethsemane atones for personal sin. Besides faith in Christ, complete and permanent repentance of all sin as well as many good works are required.6 Mormonism also teaches that one must be baptized in water to be saved (baptismal regeneration), and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for the dead.7

8. Heaven and Hell. Mormonism teaches that there are three degrees of glory: Celestial (for good Mormons able to cease sinning in this lifetime -- see endnote #6 below), Terrestrial (for good people who do not comply with all the teachings of Mormonism), and Telestial (for those who have lived unclean earthly lives). (See also Mormon Doctrines, p. 348.) Mormonism teaches that there is a hell, but only for the "sons of perdition," a very small number of souls that cannot be redeemed. According to Mormonism, then, the vast majority of mankind will be "saved," though it should be obvious that no one will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. [Blacks used to be totally out of the equation: "Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence" (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21); "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (Elder George E. Richards). In 1978, however, the Mormon Church announced that God had lifted his curse from the African race.]

9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (Testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths and portrayal of Christian pastors were removed in April of 1990, despite the fact that the ordinance was purported to have been given originally by a revelation and was never to be changed.]

10. More Citations Detailing and Amplifying Mormon Doctrine. All of the statements below are from Mormon authors in good standing with the Mormon Church:

The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 635). They teach there was an apostasy and the true church ceased to exist on earth.
We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament (Mormon Doctrine, p. 606).

The Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible (History of the Church, 4:461).

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

Three are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).

There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmadge, p. 443).
God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 333).
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347, 354).
God the Father had a Father (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
God resides near a star called Kolob (Pearl of Great Price, pp. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22).
God is in the form of a man (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the Father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Saviour of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. Cool.

God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; Vol. 8, p. 115). This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, taught it.
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions) (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856).

Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).

Baptism for the dead (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141). This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
The Holy Ghost is a male personage (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, A Marvellous Work and a Wonder, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 179).

11. More from the Mouths of Joseph Smith......

  Joseph Smith
"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (D.H C., vol. 6, p. 408-409).

"The whole Earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves for centuries, am impregnable ... I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth -- diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." (D.H.C., Vol. 6, p. 78).

"And I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, ..." (D.H C., vol. 5, p. 394). [This prophecy was made in May of 1843, and the United States government has not been overthrown and wasted.]

"Here then is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." (Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, p. 346).

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Ibid., p. 349).

"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" [Our God of the Bible has forbidden us to have anything to do with the dead (Deut. 18:10,11)."


In our search for spiritual understanding, may our choices be rooted in the truth of Scripture and Holy Tradition, not on just what feels good.  Feelings have been known to lead many down the path of destruction--kind of like settling for a cubic zirconia when Christ Jesus is our Pearl of Great Price! Wink


God bless you in your endeavors,

Elder H. Kelley

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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2004, 12:43:03 AM »

Hi Elder Kelley!!!!

I know all about mormonism  lol!!! I was just being funny in the prior post about all the fun they have hehe. You don't have to tell me about the momo's, I used to debate them all the time back in highschool. We had so many that we called thier hang out place "mormon hill"  Grin I remember having a few of my mormon friends watch the "GodMakers" (I beleive it is called) & they laughed all the way through like it was a big joke.......I was kinda laughing too but it's too bad that the "joke" is on them for being in a cult. If anyone hasn't seen the Godmakers, I highly recomend it because it exposes all the silly falsehoods of mormonism...

On another note, is it just me or does the book of mormon read like it was written by a third grader??
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2004, 02:49:17 AM »

Hi Elder Kelley!!!!

I know all about mormonism  lol!!! I was just being funny in the prior post about all the fun they have hehe. You don't have to tell me about the momo's, I used to debate them all the time back in highschool. We had so many that we called thier hang out place "mormon hill"  Grin I remember having a few of my mormon friends watch the "GodMakers" (I beleive it is called) & they laughed all the way through like it was a big joke.......I was kinda laughing too but it's too bad that the "joke" is on them for being in a cult. If anyone hasn't seen the Godmakers, I highly recomend it because it exposes all the silly falsehoods of mormonism...

On another note, is it just me or does the book of mormon read like it was written by a third grader??

I wish I could rent it at Blockbuster and the new and improved Godmakes II as well.  I haven't seen itin over 15 years.  I was told that the BoM reads like a fantasy novel.
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 05:29:10 AM »

I wouldn't choose Mormonism for the simple reason that I'm addicted to caffeine, enjoy an occasional alcoholic beverage, and want freedom of choice in what type of underwear to wear!
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