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Author Topic: muslims behead christian convert in tunisia  (Read 7106 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jason.Wike
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« on: June 05, 2012, 06:35:56 PM »

Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 06:39:03 PM »

Lord have mercy.   Sad
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 07:03:38 PM »

Memory eternal.
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 07:08:18 PM »

Lord have mercy. Truly we are in a new age of martyrdom and persecution. May the Lord grant to all His new martyrs the heavenly reward, and may we who remain not despair but remember that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 07:08:44 PM »

Yes, the West's colonial and post-colonial messing around in the region is responsible for this.

Please take your myopic political paranoid delusions to the private forum rather than using this man's death to as a means to broadcast them.

Lord have mercy on this man and his murders and those who would use his death a part of passing political chit chat.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 07:09:55 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 07:28:52 PM »

If you feel it is politics, feel free to report it to the moderators.  As it is, forum policy allows the discussion of persecution of Christians to remain in the public forum, even if it touches on issues of government involvement, unless governmental issues are the primary topic.
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 07:41:52 PM »

If you feel it is politics, feel free to report it to the moderators.  As it is, forum policy allows the discussion of persecution of Christians to remain in the public forum, even if it touches on issues of government involvement, unless governmental issues are the primary topic.

I think he was more concerned with the fact that a man's death is being politicized than with where people are discussing politics.
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 07:50:37 PM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 08:00:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Yes, the West's colonial and post-colonial messing around in the region is responsible for this.

Please take your myopic political paranoid delusions to the private forum rather than using this man's death to as a means to broadcast them.

Lord have mercy on this man and his murders and those who would use his death a part of passing political chit chat.

Thank you.   I say, POTM category with this one, succinct and to the point Smiley

 Above all else, the point of martyrs is not to exemplify scathing condemnations against their murderers, but rather the spirit of prayer and humility and mercy which is expressed by  Saint Stephen the Hieromartyr who said, "Lord do not charge them with this sin" and by Our Lord who said, "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do."

The Martyrs remind us to have mercy even on those who persecute and kill us, all the more because of their sins.  Let the the strength of their prayers be with us all!

Lord Have His Mercy!

Stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 08:48:14 PM »

I always wonder if people would vehemently protest persecution if it were perpetrated by someone else.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 10:01:36 PM »

Yes, the West's colonial and post-colonial messing around in the region is responsible for this.

Please take your myopic political paranoid delusions to the private forum rather than using this man's death to as a means to broadcast them.

Lord have mercy on this man and his murders and those who would use his death a part of passing political chit chat.

The fact that Iraq and other Muslim countries' Christian populations have been decimated (not really a strong enough word) after our involvement in the past 10 years is a historical fact. We all too often have helped out the wrong people or removed someone from power that kept people who were even worse than them from wreaking havoc. If you're going to pretend that its a "political paranoid delusion" that is your problem.

Now can we stop derailing?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:06:11 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 11:07:30 PM »

If I could go back in time I would give the Byzantines nuclear weapons to employ against the Ottomans that way we would never have this problem with Islam again Cheesy
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 12:12:28 AM »

If I could go back in time I would give the Byzantines nuclear weapons to employ against the Ottomans that way we would never have this problem with Islam again Cheesy
Right, we would just have Emperors who submitted to the Papacy.

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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 12:15:39 AM »

The Religion of Peace strikes again.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 12:30:32 AM »

Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

I was hoping at least for a ray of sunshine in the Arab Spring.

The West didn't have much to do with this in Tunisia (though guilty as charged in the others).

Lord have mercy!  Let's see what is the reaction in Tunisia.  Hopefully, not a foretaste of things to come.
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 12:38:24 AM »

Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 05:23:32 AM »

Just contacted a friend in Tunisia to find out if it is true - she say the incident took place in Syria, not Tunisia.
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 07:15:23 AM »

May his memory be eternal!
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 08:07:15 AM »

The Religion of Peace strikes again.

Like !
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 12:08:43 PM »

Here's another article saying it happened in Tunisia:

http://www.aina.org/news/20120606104355.htm

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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 12:13:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 12:57:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 01:07:22 PM »

Another martyr for the faith. Lord have mercy!

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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 01:25:20 PM »

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 

In some places, they are already doing that, though of course very late in the game and still in very small numbers compared to the Islamists.

The West should withdraw support from all the Islamic-majority "rebel" groups everywhere and redirect that aid to support of minorities who are just trying to defend themselves, as above. Of course, that will never happen, because the West hates Christianity and loves Islam for some insane and unexplainable reason, but...well, the Christians are still out there, at least for now. Assyria is alive, even if most of it lives in Europe and Chicago now and not in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran...Lord have mercy! The Western leaders and appeasers will pay for their stupidity, but perhaps not before we have helped to snuff out the ones who might act as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. Sad
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 01:40:51 PM »

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 

In some places, they are already doing that, though of course very late in the game and still in very small numbers compared to the Islamists.

The West should withdraw support from all the Islamic-majority "rebel" groups everywhere and redirect that aid to support of minorities who are just trying to defend themselves, as above. Of course, that will never happen, because the West hates Christianity and loves Islam for some insane and unexplainable reason, but...well, the Christians are still out there, at least for now. Assyria is alive, even if most of it lives in Europe and Chicago now and not in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran...Lord have mercy! The Western leaders and appeasers will pay for their stupidity, but perhaps not before we have helped to snuff out the ones who might act as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. Sad

Has any other country offered shelter to the persecuted Christians?
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 01:47:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for.  

Nonsense, with God nothing is impossible.  However, if we continue to turn to our own human efforts at this process, we will inherently fail.  Our Christian brothers and sisters need to focus on prayer, not war.  

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 

In some places, they are already doing that, though of course very late in the game and still in very small numbers compared to the Islamists.

The West should withdraw support from all the Islamic-majority "rebel" groups everywhere and redirect that aid to support of minorities who are just trying to defend themselves, as above. Of course, that will never happen, because the West hates Christianity and loves Islam for some insane and unexplainable reason, but...well, the Christians are still out there, at least for now. Assyria is alive, even if most of it lives in Europe and Chicago now and not in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran...Lord have mercy! The Western leaders and appeasers will pay for their stupidity, but perhaps not before we have helped to snuff out the ones who might act as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. Sad

Yeah that will work, lets arm a small minority in a country to watch it get even more destroyed by partisanship.  In Egypt, unity is strength, Christians and Muslims marching arm in arms (without arms) is what changes the community from the bottom up.  Guns are a top down solution, and nothing in any society can be changed from the top down.  What, are the Christian in minority in Syria supposed to rise up and take over and dominate and oppress the Muslim majority compatriots? Is that how a nation works? Should we just continually splinter and divide ourselves over increasingly arbitrary lines? Christians have been cornered in the region yes, and by war, true, but we Western nations have a lot to do with what is going on.  It then is not that we need to arm Christian minorities against Muslims and further stoke the fires of division and strife, but rather we need to use our influence and economic leverage to facilitate reconciliation and community building efforts.  The West doesn't "hate" Christianity, but unfortunately we have made a lot of bonehead decisions in the Middle East.  Its not about Muslims vs Christians, its about corruption versus competence.  Muslims and Christians alike can get along, so long as those most adept and competent leaders in the community actually lead.  

The question is what is the legacy of our Christian martyrs, will the inspire us to enact our faith through radical actions of love and forgiveness as the Martyrs were intended to inspire in us by the examples of Saint Stephen and even Jesus Christ on the Cross, or do we let hatred blind us towards vengeance rather than justice?  What will we use this man's memory for, unity or division, peace or war?  What does Jesus Christ ask of us?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 02:39:05 PM »

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Nonsense, with God nothing is impossible.
Absolutely positively true.

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However, if we continue to turn to our own human efforts only and without prayer and God's guidance and help at this process, we will inherently fail.

Addition mine. I add that because we must also put in our own efforts in addition seeking God's help. If we just say "God please do this" without doing anything ourselves, thats flirting with testing God. As an example, the Israelites in the Old Testament sought God's guidance in going to war ("Shall we go up against ______?"), yet they still went down to war themselves rather than wait for fire and brimstone to rain from heaven. I had a priest who once said God will finish whatever we cannot handle. If we can only do 30%, He will finish the 70%. If we can only do 70%, He will finish the 30%. So we must put forth our own efforts. God gave us minds to think and hands to work for a reason.

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Our Christian brothers and sisters need to focus on prayer, not war.
Also true, but I don't see anything wrong with defending yourself.

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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 02:46:18 PM »

Yeah that will work, lets arm a small minority in a country to watch it get even more destroyed by partisanship.

That's funny, it sure seemed to work to get the Kurds in North Iraq the autonomy that they absolutely do not deserve.

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In Egypt, unity is strength, Christians and Muslims marching arm in arms (without arms) is what changes the community from the bottom up.
 

Have you been to Egypt lately? One of our deacons here at St. Bishoy COC went back home to post-Arab Spring Alexandria recently, and "unity" is not one of the things he mentioned seeing in great abundance. Perhaps you've been reading too much Hizb Al-Noor literature. They lie when they say we'll be respected, you know. They're liars.

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Guns are a top down solution, and nothing in any society can be changed from the top down.
 

Uh...South Sudanese independence? (Jeez, you're bad at this.) You can all them any direction solution you want, but last I checked that conflict wasn't won without guns. Peace treaties generally aren't signed until the more militarily and economically powerful side realizes they can't simply crush their opposition.

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What, are the Christian in minority in Syria supposed to rise up and take over and dominate and oppress the Muslim majority compatriots? Is that how a nation works? Should we just continually splinter and divide ourselves over increasingly arbitrary lines?


Christians being beheaded and mutilated and terrorized seems like the least "arbitrary" set of conditions around. The fact that Christians make up a disproportionate percentage of the refugees from these places relative to their percentage of their respective societies also points to the strongly non-arbitrary nature of the violence. You disgust me.

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Christians have been cornered in the region yes, and by war, true, but we Western nations have a lot to do with what is going on.
 

Save it for the next Wobblies meeting, hippie. We're talking about people's lives here.

Quote
The West doesn't "hate" Christianity

I beg to differ. Check out some of the changes in the US law code since the 1930s that have systematically divested those holding to traditional Christian viewpoints of their rights to have appropriate space in the public square relative to their number (which is, yes Mr. Dawkins, still quite high), then say that. Listen to our President go to Cairo to kiss Islamic behind, and tell the world that we aren't Christian because there are so many other faiths also present in the West. None of these are things that people who don't hate Christianity would do. If you don't hate Christianity, you don't go out of your way to marginalize it, even when it is the majority faith of the people.

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Its not about Muslims vs Christians, its about corruption versus competence.


I think a great many Muslims would contend with you on the first half of that clause.

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Muslims and Christians alike can get along, so long as those most adept and competent leaders in the community actually lead.
 

And who decides what defines "competency"? You and other Islamic well-wishers? The fact of the matter is that if the people want a Wagdy Ghoneim or someone of that ilk, that's who they'll have. It has nothing to do with competency. If the people were so concerned with competency rather than ideology, why on earth did the last round of "leaders through upheaval" in the region (Qaddafi, S. Hussein al-Tikiriti, Omar al-Bashir) prove to be so spectacularly incompetent? Where is all the getting along between the various factions of those societies (not all of which breakdown along religious lines anyway)? You don't like to hear it, but the problem is Islam (and, in Qaddafi's case, "Islamic socialism"). As long as the people still think that "Islam is the solution", they won't have competent leaders, because that entire system of governance is based upon fidelity to religious ideal, rather than rule that is responsive to all of the people (since of course, some people don't count for very much in that scheme).

Quote
The question is what is the legacy of our Christian martyrs, will the inspire us to enact our faith through radical actions of love and forgiveness as the Martyrs were intended to inspire in us by the examples of Saint Stephen and even Jesus Christ on the Cross, or do we let hatred blind us towards vengeance rather than justice?
 

Who is talking about vengeance? Did you watch the video I linked of the Christian militia? These people are defending their town from attacks by Islamists. They don't even leave it, unlike the Islamist militias who rove around North and other parts of Iraq creating chaos and massacring people. You're stupid if you can't see the difference between self-defense and vengeance.

Quote
What will we use this man's memory for, unity or division, peace or war?  What does Jesus Christ ask of us?

Our Lord asks us to be as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents, for He has sent us out into a world full of wolves. While we are obligated to love them just the same, and pray to bring them out of the darkness, we are under no such obligation to invite them to kill us without making so much as a sound in protest. There is, after all, a difference between self-defense and deliberate murder, and this is found in the Bible:

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death." (Exodus 21:12-14)

I fasted and prayed for three days after Maspero, same as anyone. You won't catch me advocating that anyone take up offensive violence in response to persecution. But self-preservation (what I am talking about, not vengeance) is not a sin. We still break the fast with food, after all. Neither is justice a sin. The Coptic Church, in fact, approves of fairly-administered capital punishment. We are lovers of all, but nobody's wimps or doormats.

I will leave the last word to HG Bishop Suriel of Melbourne, a man greatly admired by me, who lays out very plainly the pitfalls of being overly docile in the face of persecution. He likewise does not advocate offensive violence (parish the thought!), but he does speak truth to the lie that you have repeated about the "unity" of Egyptian Muslims and Christians. In Iraq, where there is not even such pretense, how much more do you think could rightfully be required to ensure the continuation of the Christian minority? Do you likewise condemn your own church for not being snuffed out during its periods of persecution? Again, I say that self-preservation is not a sin.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2012, 03:10:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Save it for the next Wobblies meeting, hippie. We're talking about people's lives here.



Thanks, its always good to know that insults are the best weapon in a reasonable discussion.  See, you can't even see the paradox, that I am promoting unity, and you can't even find unity amongst your own Christian people, how can we have peace elsewhere if we can't even find peace amongst ourselves, in-house so to speak?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2012, 03:15:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for.  

Nonsense, with God nothing is impossible.  However, if we continue to turn to our own human efforts at this process, we will inherently fail.  Our Christian brothers and sisters need to focus on prayer, not war.  


Of course God can do it.  I have no doubt in my mind that He can.  I fully believe that Christ could have removed the stone from Lazarus's tomb...of He so chose.  But He did not.  He told men to do it.  They did not sit an pray the stone away, they moved it by their own hands, as Christ ordered them to.

Likewise in war.  When the Rus fleet threatened Constantinople, through prayer and Holy Relics a great storm was called up that drove away their ships.  God is perfectly capable of destroying foes.  When He so chooses.  The Tatars were defeated at Kulikovo Pole not only by the prayers of a Saint, but also by the arms of brave soldiers.

Even the Bible says there is a time to kill and a time to heal.  A time to hate and a time to love.  A time for war and a time for peace.  (BTW, I realize this is rather pedestrian and unOrthodox of me to refer to the Word of God rather than to a Canon or the writing of a Saint, but y'all will have to forgive me.  I've only been Orthodox for fifteen years or so.  I'm still learning.)

I say the persecuted Christians in these areas should do both - pray and fight.  Sometimes you must pray "Lord have mercy", and at others "Lord, guide my bullet".  Amongst these prayers you should do some of the work yourself and make sure the sights are lined up properly.  God will do the rest.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2012, 03:20:55 PM »

Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.


I find your conclusion exceedingly bizarre. Sure, we had a part in all of this but our role was not a direct one. Our role was relatively benign and not related to ordinary politics. If anything, we may have been too optimistic regarding the capability of Muslim nations to change beyond their 12th Century way of thinking and living. I think that the main culprit is the religion of Islam and, as long as there are Muslims (particularly Muslim-majority nations, you have the possibility of such barbarisms to occur.
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »

See, you can't even see the paradox, that I am promoting unity, and you can't even find unity amongst your own Christian people, how can we have peace elsewhere if we can't even find peace amongst ourselves, in-house so to speak?

I do not seek to unify disparate positions. That would be a false unity, and I have no interest in that. Luckily, our Church does not demand conformity among its members with respect to political positions, such as you've voiced in this thread regarding a similarly false 'unity' in Egypt (see Bp. Suriel's talk in the video I linked) and other matters. It's a good thing, too, that we needn't be unified in this way, as I can't imagine that my particularly community, St. Bishoy COC, would hold together very long under such requirements. Smiley

At any rate, if you take hippie-ism to be an insult, maybe you should stop arguing about how this is the West's fault and all that jazz. That is indeed the practically invariant position of the great unwashed and patchouli-fied, maybe not the world over (I doubt there are many Muslim hippies, and they're always complaining about the big, bad evil West), but certainly in every place I've ever lived (which are all full of those kinds of people, natch). So hopefully you understand that in accordance with the old adage that if it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, I've done nothing more than spot a duck. And, yes, we are talking about people's lives here. Let's keep that first and foremost in our minds, despite any political disagreements.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2012, 04:17:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

See, you can't even see the paradox, that I am promoting unity, and you can't even find unity amongst your own Christian people, how can we have peace elsewhere if we can't even find peace amongst ourselves, in-house so to speak?

I do not seek to unify disparate positions. That would be a false unity, and I have no interest in that. Luckily, our Church does not demand conformity among its members with respect to political positions, such as you've voiced in this thread regarding a similarly false 'unity' in Egypt (see Bp. Suriel's talk in the video I linked) and other matters. It's a good thing, too, that we needn't be unified in this way, as I can't imagine that my particularly community, St. Bishoy COC, would hold together very long under such requirements. Smiley

At any rate, if you take hippie-ism to be an insult, maybe you should stop arguing about how this is the West's fault and all that jazz. That is indeed the practically invariant position of the great unwashed and patchouli-fied, maybe not the world over (I doubt there are many Muslim hippies, and they're always complaining about the big, bad evil West), but certainly in every place I've ever lived (which are all full of those kinds of people, natch). So hopefully you understand that in accordance with the old adage that if it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, I've done nothing more than spot a duck. And, yes, we are talking about people's lives here. Let's keep that first and foremost in our minds, despite any political disagreements.

Yes indeed, we are talking about peoples' lives here, but that means we must be equally careful not to further provoke hostilities.  I am not saying blind appeasement, but there must be compromise. My brother, isn'tthat is what living in a society is all about?  Even amongst Christians, we have cultural and ethnic variations, should we be further divided by these? In any given society, there will be diversity, but diversity by itself doesn't automatically equate to hostility or division.  The Church very much asks us to have a true unity, which is to say, "Love your neighbor as yourself, and to love your enemies."  It didn't say, "Love your Christian neighbor, and be divided against those who are different."  This is what Christ demands of us, Lord knows I'm not making it up or skewing the interpretation.  The text says, "Love your neighbor as yourself."  And when the young lawyer asked Jesus to explain who is our neighbor, Jesus gave the example of the good Samaritan.  Essentially, Samaritans were Arabs to the Jews of Jesus' time.  They were not beholden to each other, and were bitter rivals.  There was open segregation between the two groups.  However, was it the Jewish priest that helped the robbed Jew? Was it the Levite (a kind of Jewish deacon) that helped? No, these crossed the other  to side of the road.  It was the Samaritan that helped the Jew.  Sure, some Samaritans probably would have done the same thing as the priest and Levite, however, if we blanket discriminate against ALL Samaritans, how will we see the good Samaritans?

I really don't understand your position, should the Arab world go back to the Jim Crow style segregation they had in the past? Should we make Muslims wear yellow Crescent and Stars to distinguish themselves in public in Western countries? Really, what do you want out the world?

Sorry, we're not going to suddenly mass convert a billion Muslims, and we surely can't go for the Final Solution, and we also can't maintain a rigidly divided/segregated society, because that in the long run only promotes further hostility, inequality, division, and strife. I am not saying we need to have an imaginary unity where we simply overlook our differences, but rather at a grass-roots, bottom-up, community oriented approach we need to build unity. And yes in Egypt we saw tangible examples of this.  We saw Muslims and Christians organizing, centralizing, cooperating.  That fostered an environment towards unity rather then division.  It was not based on politics, or ideology, or religion, it was based on the reality of the facts on the ground.  Christians live there, Muslims live there, and we all need to learn to get along.  Its not that we necessarily already get along, but that shouldn't stop us from trying no matter how daunting the task seems at the present junction. That takes risk and sacrifice from both sides, and it also takes a sincere leap of faith, something which we Christians should obviously have the upper hand at Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2012, 05:13:17 PM »

Yes indeed, we are talking about peoples' lives here, but that means we must be equally careful not to further provoke hostilities.  I am not saying blind appeasement, but there must be compromise.

What more do the Christians have to compromise, Habte? In Egypt, they regularly forgo the justice due to them in the inherently unequal and unjust "reconciliation councils" following incidents of violence and terror committed against them, specifically to hopefully avoid further violence at the hands of enraged Muslim mobs. Yet it somehow never seems to work out that way. The attacks and degradations just keep coming. And what kinds of things enrage Muslims? Just about anything that a Christian does, and even many things that Christians absolutely do NOT do (see: the fake Camelia Shehata debacle, for which 50+ Christians in Iraq were viciously murdered). Did you watch the video of HG Bp. Suriel? There is a reason why the message from HG is clear: "We are a patient people, but enough is enough!" Not just in Egypt but throughout the Middle East we are one "compromise" away from just giving up and becoming Muslims. So, no, I do not believe in compromise, either. And, thank God, neither do our Bishops believe in compromise when it comes to the right of the people to assert their right to their Christian religion. There is absolutely nothing we have to compromise on. What could we? We take the crosses off our churches so that the Muslims are not offended, and they burn them down, anyway. We produce the necessary documents to prove that we have the right to work the land legally belonging to our monasteries, and the monastery is attacked and the monks are kidnapped and tortured? What can we do? Again, there is nothing left to compromise, save fleeing the entire region and eventually the world. That's what happens when you give fascists permission to take from you whatever they want, whether they're Muslims or whatever it is they are. Eventually, they come knocking on your door at your in the lands to which you've immigrated, after annexing them as well. I've already read reports from Copts in areas of Western Europe that have become heavily Islamicized that Muslims come to their door, telling them it is time to go to the mosque and pray. Angry No more compromises.

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My brother, isn'tthat is what living in a society is all about?
 

That's what living in a civilized society is about. That's not what living in an Islamic society is about.

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In any given society, there will be diversity, but diversity by itself doesn't automatically equate to hostility or division.
 

Again, we're not talking about "any given society", but actual, individual Islamic societies. Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, India, Pakistan, etc. These are not "any given society", and a growing number of them are becoming increasingly (alarmingly) Islamicized in recent years, particularly following the so-called "Arab Spring" uprisings. I know people from Tunisia. They tell that the current rise of Islamism in their home country is just as foreign to them and their way of being Muslim as it would be if it were foisted upon us in the United States.

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It didn't say, "Love your Christian neighbor, and be divided against those who are different." 


Of course. The trouble is, the Muslims (the ones committing seemingly endless violence against us around the world for doctrinal reasons) do not see it this way. So the problem is in fact not that Muslims are not our neighbors, but in their reckoning, we are not theirs. They see our loving nature as weak and evidence that we are pushovers. I do not believe that we are.

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I really don't understand your position, should the Arab world go back to the Jim Crow style segregation they had in the past? Should we make Muslims wear yellow Crescent and Stars to distinguish themselves in public in Western countries? Really, what do you want out the world?

My position is that we have the right -- given to us by GOD and not through any Muslim protection, declaration, or interference -- to live and worship in our traditional lands without being beholden to the sick, power-hungry perversions of those who say that "Islam is the solution". We have the right to live in friendship and peace with all of humanity, both Christian and non-Christian, and we have the right to call every person, regardless of their background, to worship of the true God in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, not by force (as the invading Muslim armies originally spread their demonic religion into Egypt and around the world), but by both example and disputation. Unfortunately, no major Muslim school of thought agrees that we have such rights, and increasingly the rest of the world is also (out of its own ignorance of history and the danger presented to all people of conscience by violent and determined Islamic expansionism and resurgence) demanding that the Muslim's rights to practice their faith (including the parts that subjugate non-Muslims) take precedence over our rights, as well. That is absolutely unacceptable. I seek the liquidation of no one, only the rights that are given by God to His servants and worshipers, the Christians.

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Sorry, we're not going to suddenly mass convert a billion Muslims, and we surely can't go for the Final Solution


See above. I am advocating nothing of the sort.

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and we also can't maintain a rigidly divided/segregated society, because that in the long run only promotes further hostility, inequality, division, and strife.


Take it up with the Muslims. They're the ones shouting "Islamiyya! Islamiyya!", "The Copts are our guests!", "Obama, Obama -- we are all Osama!" and other stupid, divisive, and threatening slogans at their dumb rallies and meetings. No one would more desire to get along and live in peace than the Christians of the Middle East. The problem is entirely on the other side.

Quote
And yes in Egypt we saw tangible examples of this.  We saw Muslims and Christians organizing, centralizing, cooperating.  That fostered an environment towards unity rather then division.  It was not based on politics, or ideology, or religion, it was based on the reality of the facts on the ground.  Christians live there, Muslims live there, and we all need to learn to get along.  Its not that we necessarily already get along, but that shouldn't stop us from trying no matter how daunting the task seems at the present junction. That takes risk and sacrifice from both sides, and it also takes a sincere leap of faith, something which we Christians should obviously have the upper hand at Smiley

You seem to have not followed subsequent events. The uprisings in Egypt and around the Middle East have done nothing to promote unity between Christians and Muslims in any long-lasting or comforting way. Rather, it has given the worst elements of these respective societies the context that they need in order to unleash their violent, regressive, hideous ideologies upon the world. And we are far fewer than they are. This is the reality of the situation. The much lauded "moderates" are quiet as church mice, as usual, and the loudest and stupidest (and most popular) of the Islamic world are busy planning for a future without us. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but some day, and sooner than they might have expected before all of this chaos happened.
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2012, 05:17:48 PM »

It's official. Muslim is the new homo.

How many threads can we get going about this terrible danger?

RCs, except to be in fashion come late summer.

Ladies, you should be the target of all the rage early fall.

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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2012, 05:26:29 PM »

It's official. Muslim is the new homo.

Well, maybe a little...



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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2012, 05:36:32 PM »

It's official. Muslim is the new homo.
The genus that includes modern humans is now called 'Muslim'?  Wink

Seriously though, I hope my comments weren't taken as xenophobic, hatred or even dislike towards Muslims.  It's just that 3,485 days of being a Muslim has taught me quite a bit about Islam.  Granted, like Christianity, Islam isn't monolithic by any means.  I'll also throw in that the Qur'an gave women many rights centuries before the West.  But the Qur'an lends itself quite nicely within the violent paradigm that many of us Westerners are wont to dismiss to fringe elements within Islam.  Particularly within the two main branches of Sunni's and Shi'ites.  I agree that US Gov't's policies in the Middle East were the proverbial gasoline on the fire, it should be noted that the fire and match that the Qur'an teach is what frightens me.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2012, 05:36:42 PM »

It's official. Muslim is the new homo.

How many threads can we get going about this terrible danger?

RCs, except to be in fashion come late summer.

Ladies, you should be the target of all the rage early fall.



You seem to think we can't multitask?  Jeez.  What do you think we are?  Catholic women?
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2012, 05:54:33 PM »

Martyrs are so gosh-darn inconvenient.
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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2012, 05:55:51 PM »

Yes, the West's colonial and post-colonial messing around in the region is responsible for this.

Please take your myopic political paranoid delusions to the private forum rather than using this man's death to as a means to broadcast them.

Lord have mercy on this man and his murders and those who would use his death a part of passing political chit chat.

LOL. I think you beat them to the politicization.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2012, 06:05:02 PM »

Yes, the West's colonial and post-colonial messing around in the region is responsible for this.

Please take your myopic political paranoid delusions to the private forum rather than using this man's death to as a means to broadcast them.

Lord have mercy on this man and his murders and those who would use his death a part of passing political chit chat.

LOL. I think you beat them to the politicization.

It was supposed to act like a vaccine.
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2012, 06:05:42 PM »

It's official. Muslim is the new homo.

How many threads can we get going about this terrible danger?

RCs, except to be in fashion come late summer.

Ladies, you should be the target of all the rage early fall.



You seem to think we can't multitask?  Jeez.  What do you think we are?  Catholic women?

That's the spirit!
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2012, 06:15:44 PM »


No one would more desire to get along and live in peace than the Christians of the Middle East. The problem is entirely on the other side.

I have lived in the Middle East and I agree with you: the problem indeed resides with the Muslims.
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2012, 06:49:49 PM »


No one would more desire to get along and live in peace than the Christians of the Middle East. The problem is entirely on the other side.

I have lived in the Middle East and I agree with you: the problem indeed resides with the Muslims.

I completely agree, my experience has been the same in Egypt.
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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2012, 01:37:04 PM »

  I have moved the Political commentary into Politics, as its polemical nature & political rhetoric were taking away from the discussion that could be had on the OP to this topic. 

I will gently remind all of you that Christian News exists as a place to have discussion on news pertaining to Christianity.  Not as a place for debate on those news subjects.  That's what we have the REST of the board for.  Please keep all conversation to the OP & keep it at a discussion level on what the OP tells us. 

Any further violations to this rule will be dealt with in the normal moderatorial manner.  You have all been warned.   police

This topic has been moved to Politics.

If you do not have access to the Politics forum please contact. Fr. George for access. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=45531.0
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