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Author Topic: One more question about the filioque.  (Read 2424 times) Average Rating: 0
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rko
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« on: June 04, 2012, 01:27:32 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 02:02:28 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)


Oh boy...

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 02:07:05 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 02:10:06 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)


1st verse: The Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.
2nd verse: The Spirit is sent by the Son
3rd verse: The Spirit is sent by the Father.

Original creed: The Spirit proceeds from the Father.
Filioque: The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

'Proceeds' and 'sends' are two totally different words (in the original Greek of the quoted Scriptures and the Creed they are as separate as they are in the English translations we're using to speak from) and therefore different relationships between the subject and object. So the original Creed quotes the first part of the first verse on the relationship of the Father to the Spirit, and doesn't include anything about the the sending' relationship talked about in the rest of your quotes. If the Latin addition to the Creed had been 'who proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son and the Father' then there would be no theological objection to it, as it would reflect Scripture (as the original Creed did).

But that is not what the Latin addition does. It places 'the Son' in the same relationship of 'procession' that the Spirit and the Father have and does so without any Scriptural warrant.
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »

Hold on....

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 02:29:15 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?
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J Michael
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 02:33:46 PM »

Aaaaaand they're off..........................!!



By the way, welcome to the fray, RKO  Grin!
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 03:06:04 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

That presupposes that the great Saint Augustine taught the filioque which the Latin Church teaches. Doctrinal controversies are over more than just how something is worded. Are you familiar with the teachings of the anti-union Synod of Blachernae in 1285 or St. Gregory Palamas on the filioque?
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 03:08:00 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I guess the thing for me is I didn't really process the word "proceeds."

I think I may have an idea how that is different, but not sure. The Holy Spirit, as the third person of the trinity, proceeds rather than  (for lack of a better word) is manifested by the father or the Son. Sort of under his own power. So, if he proceeds from the father AND the Son, he is the weak link of the trinity?  That can't be right though, because insisting that He Proceed from the fathwer alone would be tantamount to saying both the son and the holy spirit are less than the father. (Or are they?)
I think I need a beer. Huh
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2012, 03:12:39 PM »

Or wait. Maybe the Son can SEND the Holy Spirit, as in, "hey. get down there..." But as it proceeds, it proceeds from the Father, and not both. Is that it?
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J Michael
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Since you're new, I'll buy!  Cheesy

« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 03:22:24 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2012, 03:23:35 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Don't worry about causing trouble. Expect many long quoted passage and several maps. Stick with it.

Have one on me.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2012, 03:25:22 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Don't worry about causing trouble. Expect many long quoted passage and several maps. Stick with it.

Have one on me.

After those long quoted passages and all the maps, I think he's gonna need this:

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2012, 03:38:54 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2012, 03:41:03 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin

Okay, a screwdriver it is.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I guess the thing for me is I didn't really process the word "proceeds."

I think I may have an idea how that is different, but not sure. The Holy Spirit, as the third person of the trinity, proceeds rather than  (for lack of a better word) is manifested by the father or the Son. Sort of under his own power. So, if he proceeds from the father AND the Son, he is the weak link of the trinity?  That can't be right though, because insisting that He Proceed from the fathwer alone would be tantamount to saying both the son and the holy spirit are less than the father. (Or are they?)
I think I need a beer. Huh

Quote
Or wait. Maybe the Son can SEND the Holy Spirit, as in, "hey. get down there..." But as it proceeds, it proceeds from the Father, and not both. Is that it?

Yes, in the second quote you are getting at the difference between proceeds and sends in that Christ 'sending' the Spirit to the Apostles, etc is a temporal event. The verses about sending are about how the Trinity relates to the created world--the Father has sent His Son, and then the Son sends the Spirit, at specific points in time to do particular things in the world. Before the Annunciation, the Son was not 'sent' by the Father, and before Pentecost the Spirit was not 'sent' by the Son.

On the other hand, the Son was 'begotten' of the Father before all ages. There was a time when the Son was not sent, but there was never a time when He was not begotten. This is the eternal relationship between the First and Second Person of the Trinity which has been revealed to us as what makes them distinguishable Persons--that One is the Father and One is the Son (and the Father and Son are One). Likewise, the procession of the Spirit refers to His eternal relationship to the Father--and to the difference between that relationship and the relationship of the Father and the Son. That is, the Trinity is One--but it is also 3. But because the Trinity is One, the only way that the 3 persons can be distinguished by our created minds is by the revealed relationships between them, that one is the Father, who begets and is proceeded from, one is the Son who is begotten of the Father, and one is the Spirit who proceeds from the Father. Anything more than that is to beyond revealed truth and pretend that the human mind can comprehend the inner life of the Trinity.

"You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God." — Saint Gregory the Theologian  

"We have learned that there is a difference between begetting and procession, but the nature of the difference we in no wise understand." — Saint John of Damascus
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 03:44:15 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:00 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

That's not a good argument. Just one example of a universally acknowledged saint who taught just one error that the Church rejects will undermine it.
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:58 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin

Okay, a screwdriver it is.  Smiley

Atta girl  Grin Grin!
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 03:50:14 PM »

You don't know what you've unleashed  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 04:04:13 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.

Yes!
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 04:05:45 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 04:12:53 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.

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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 04:42:40 PM »

Another problem with the "and the Son," clause, is that a church would enable one bishop, even the church's senior bishop, over 600 years later,  to add language to the "Symbol of Faith" (The Creed) that was written and promulgated by the 1st and 2nd Ecumenical Synods (Councils), accepted by the greater church, and ratified by subsequent ecumenical synods.  The Orthodox Church does not authorize any of its hierarchy or the Holy Synods of the Holy Orthodox Churches to amend or override the work of an ecumenical synod.
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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 04:45:38 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?
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« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin. But simply being mistaken is not itself a sin, particularly if no one corrects you.
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 04:53:58 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »



It took me more than half an hour to realize that the caption at the end of that clip wasn't written in Romanian.
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 05:06:50 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)

Right. Catholics revere St. Augustine and generally follow his theology with no problem.
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 05:09:42 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 05:14:46 PM »



It took me more than half an hour to realize that the caption at the end of that clip wasn't written in Romanian.

ROTFL!! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 05:19:16 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)

Right. Catholics revere St. Augustine and generally follow his theology with no problem.

I've never had an issue with him.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 06:10:14 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son. His explanation seemed to be that the Father is primary and the Son is begotten from the Father eternally and the Spirit proceeds eternally from the love of the Father and the Son. And he said that all Persons of God exist eternally, and that our language is not adequate to explain this. I think he meant the words "create" and "proceed" imply one occurred before the other, but he said that all three all co-exist eternally.

I am not sure if I captured the words from the broadcast accurately, but this seemed to to be the explanation presented. His explanation was not discussing the filioque directly, or the addition to the Creed.

However, does the explanation seem in line with Catholic teachings?
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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 06:21:30 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son. His explanation seemed to be that the Father is primary and the Son is begotten from the Father eternally and the Spirit proceeds eternally from the love of the Father and the Son. And he said that all Persons of God exist eternally, and that our language is not adequate to explain this. I think he meant the words "create" and "proceed" imply one occurred before the other, but he said that all three all co-exist eternally.

I am not sure if I captured the words from the broadcast accurately, but this seemed to to be the explanation presented. His explanation was not discussing the filioque directly, or the addition to the Creed.

However, does the explanation seem in line with Catholic teachings?

I could be wrong, but I think that is in line with what St. Augustine taught.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 06:22:02 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 08:46:33 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 08:51:10 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

Being wrong is not at all the same as being a heretic. The dividing line between a theological mistake or lack of clarity is pride and the refusal to be corrected. Blessed Augustine submitted all he wrote to the judgment of the Church. He did not oppose the Church. He was simply mistaken on a few points. It happens. No single father is infallible. All their writings must be submitted to the judgment of the Church. It is the consensus of the fathers that matters. Heresy involves willfulness and a perversion of doctrine. Quite different from honest mistakes.
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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 08:52:11 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

But probably not in Greek.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2012, 08:57:02 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

But probably not in Greek.

Now that is just silly.
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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2012, 09:35:26 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?


Is St Gregory of Nyssa a saint?

How about St Thomas Aquinas?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 09:37:30 PM by Paisius » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2012, 09:37:53 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

And I'm fairly certain that St. Augustine never claimed that the Creed said 'from the Son'
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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »

There should be a chess set with saints as the pieces.  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2012, 12:03:35 AM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

And I'm fairly certain that St. Augustine never claimed that the Creed said 'from the Son'
So is it true that by affirming the filioque, he knowingly went against the creed, but is nevertheless  declared to be a saint in heaven by the Holy Orthodox Church?
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