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Author Topic: One more question about the filioque.  (Read 2839 times) Average Rating: 0
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rko
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« on: June 04, 2012, 01:27:32 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 02:02:28 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)


Oh boy...

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 02:07:05 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 02:10:06 PM »

I am in between: Cradle catholic who is considering converting to Holy Orthodoxy.  Please know I'm not trying to stir up an argument, it is a legitimate question for which I am seeking an answer.  Given the hubub about the RCC's addition of the filioque, how is the RCC version considered wrong in light of the scripture quoted below?


"When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father—and whom I Myself will send from the Father—will bear witness on My behalf (John 15:26). "It is much better for you that I go. If I fail to go, the Paraclete will never come to you; whereas if I go, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7). "This much have I told you while I was still with you; the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:25-6)


1st verse: The Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.
2nd verse: The Spirit is sent by the Son
3rd verse: The Spirit is sent by the Father.

Original creed: The Spirit proceeds from the Father.
Filioque: The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

'Proceeds' and 'sends' are two totally different words (in the original Greek of the quoted Scriptures and the Creed they are as separate as they are in the English translations we're using to speak from) and therefore different relationships between the subject and object. So the original Creed quotes the first part of the first verse on the relationship of the Father to the Spirit, and doesn't include anything about the the sending' relationship talked about in the rest of your quotes. If the Latin addition to the Creed had been 'who proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son and the Father' then there would be no theological objection to it, as it would reflect Scripture (as the original Creed did).

But that is not what the Latin addition does. It places 'the Son' in the same relationship of 'procession' that the Spirit and the Father have and does so without any Scriptural warrant.
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »

Hold on....

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 02:29:15 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?
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J Michael
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 02:33:46 PM »

Aaaaaand they're off..........................!!



By the way, welcome to the fray, RKO  Grin!
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 03:06:04 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

That presupposes that the great Saint Augustine taught the filioque which the Latin Church teaches. Doctrinal controversies are over more than just how something is worded. Are you familiar with the teachings of the anti-union Synod of Blachernae in 1285 or St. Gregory Palamas on the filioque?
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 03:08:00 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I guess the thing for me is I didn't really process the word "proceeds."

I think I may have an idea how that is different, but not sure. The Holy Spirit, as the third person of the trinity, proceeds rather than  (for lack of a better word) is manifested by the father or the Son. Sort of under his own power. So, if he proceeds from the father AND the Son, he is the weak link of the trinity?  That can't be right though, because insisting that He Proceed from the fathwer alone would be tantamount to saying both the son and the holy spirit are less than the father. (Or are they?)
I think I need a beer. Huh
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2012, 03:12:39 PM »

Or wait. Maybe the Son can SEND the Holy Spirit, as in, "hey. get down there..." But as it proceeds, it proceeds from the Father, and not both. Is that it?
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J Michael
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Since you're new, I'll buy!  Cheesy

« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 03:22:24 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2012, 03:23:35 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Don't worry about causing trouble. Expect many long quoted passage and several maps. Stick with it.

Have one on me.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2012, 03:25:22 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley
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J Michael
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I think I need a beer. Huh

Don't worry about causing trouble. Expect many long quoted passage and several maps. Stick with it.

Have one on me.

After those long quoted passages and all the maps, I think he's gonna need this:

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2012, 03:38:54 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2012, 03:41:03 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin

Okay, a screwdriver it is.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »

I don't want no trouble!! Shocked

I guess the thing for me is I didn't really process the word "proceeds."

I think I may have an idea how that is different, but not sure. The Holy Spirit, as the third person of the trinity, proceeds rather than  (for lack of a better word) is manifested by the father or the Son. Sort of under his own power. So, if he proceeds from the father AND the Son, he is the weak link of the trinity?  That can't be right though, because insisting that He Proceed from the fathwer alone would be tantamount to saying both the son and the holy spirit are less than the father. (Or are they?)
I think I need a beer. Huh

Quote
Or wait. Maybe the Son can SEND the Holy Spirit, as in, "hey. get down there..." But as it proceeds, it proceeds from the Father, and not both. Is that it?

Yes, in the second quote you are getting at the difference between proceeds and sends in that Christ 'sending' the Spirit to the Apostles, etc is a temporal event. The verses about sending are about how the Trinity relates to the created world--the Father has sent His Son, and then the Son sends the Spirit, at specific points in time to do particular things in the world. Before the Annunciation, the Son was not 'sent' by the Father, and before Pentecost the Spirit was not 'sent' by the Son.

On the other hand, the Son was 'begotten' of the Father before all ages. There was a time when the Son was not sent, but there was never a time when He was not begotten. This is the eternal relationship between the First and Second Person of the Trinity which has been revealed to us as what makes them distinguishable Persons--that One is the Father and One is the Son (and the Father and Son are One). Likewise, the procession of the Spirit refers to His eternal relationship to the Father--and to the difference between that relationship and the relationship of the Father and the Son. That is, the Trinity is One--but it is also 3. But because the Trinity is One, the only way that the 3 persons can be distinguished by our created minds is by the revealed relationships between them, that one is the Father, who begets and is proceeded from, one is the Son who is begotten of the Father, and one is the Spirit who proceeds from the Father. Anything more than that is to beyond revealed truth and pretend that the human mind can comprehend the inner life of the Trinity.

"You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God." — Saint Gregory the Theologian  

"We have learned that there is a difference between begetting and procession, but the nature of the difference we in no wise understand." — Saint John of Damascus
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 03:44:15 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:00 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

That's not a good argument. Just one example of a universally acknowledged saint who taught just one error that the Church rejects will undermine it.
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:58 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

Aww....comeon,biro!  It *is* 5 o'clock somewhere, ya know?!  Grin

Okay, a screwdriver it is.  Smiley

Atta girl  Grin Grin!
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 03:50:14 PM »

You don't know what you've unleashed  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 04:04:13 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.

Yes!
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 04:05:45 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 04:12:53 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

A saint can be wrong.

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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 04:42:40 PM »

Another problem with the "and the Son," clause, is that a church would enable one bishop, even the church's senior bishop, over 600 years later,  to add language to the "Symbol of Faith" (The Creed) that was written and promulgated by the 1st and 2nd Ecumenical Synods (Councils), accepted by the greater church, and ratified by subsequent ecumenical synods.  The Orthodox Church does not authorize any of its hierarchy or the Holy Synods of the Holy Orthodox Churches to amend or override the work of an ecumenical synod.
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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 04:45:38 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?
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« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin. But simply being mistaken is not itself a sin, particularly if no one corrects you.
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 04:53:58 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »



It took me more than half an hour to realize that the caption at the end of that clip wasn't written in Romanian.
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 05:06:50 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)

Right. Catholics revere St. Augustine and generally follow his theology with no problem.
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 05:09:42 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 05:14:46 PM »



It took me more than half an hour to realize that the caption at the end of that clip wasn't written in Romanian.

ROTFL!! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 05:19:16 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

I was being sarcastic.  I thought the smileys would have conveyed that, but they let me down, the little so and so's!  (But, hey, it *is* Monday,  and I guess they're not fully powered-up yet.)

Right. Catholics revere St. Augustine and generally follow his theology with no problem.

I've never had an issue with him.
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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 06:10:14 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son. His explanation seemed to be that the Father is primary and the Son is begotten from the Father eternally and the Spirit proceeds eternally from the love of the Father and the Son. And he said that all Persons of God exist eternally, and that our language is not adequate to explain this. I think he meant the words "create" and "proceed" imply one occurred before the other, but he said that all three all co-exist eternally.

I am not sure if I captured the words from the broadcast accurately, but this seemed to to be the explanation presented. His explanation was not discussing the filioque directly, or the addition to the Creed.

However, does the explanation seem in line with Catholic teachings?
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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 06:21:30 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son. His explanation seemed to be that the Father is primary and the Son is begotten from the Father eternally and the Spirit proceeds eternally from the love of the Father and the Son. And he said that all Persons of God exist eternally, and that our language is not adequate to explain this. I think he meant the words "create" and "proceed" imply one occurred before the other, but he said that all three all co-exist eternally.

I am not sure if I captured the words from the broadcast accurately, but this seemed to to be the explanation presented. His explanation was not discussing the filioque directly, or the addition to the Creed.

However, does the explanation seem in line with Catholic teachings?

I could be wrong, but I think that is in line with what St. Augustine taught.
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 08:46:33 PM »

It's too early in the day for me to tap the vodka. Think I'll wait. Smiley

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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 08:51:10 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

Being wrong is not at all the same as being a heretic. The dividing line between a theological mistake or lack of clarity is pride and the refusal to be corrected. Blessed Augustine submitted all he wrote to the judgment of the Church. He did not oppose the Church. He was simply mistaken on a few points. It happens. No single father is infallible. All their writings must be submitted to the judgment of the Church. It is the consensus of the fathers that matters. Heresy involves willfulness and a perversion of doctrine. Quite different from honest mistakes.
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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 08:52:11 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

But probably not in Greek.
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« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2012, 08:57:02 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

But probably not in Greek.

Now that is just silly.
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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2012, 09:35:26 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?


Is St Gregory of Nyssa a saint?

How about St Thomas Aquinas?
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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2012, 09:37:53 PM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

And I'm fairly certain that St. Augustine never claimed that the Creed said 'from the Son'
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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »

There should be a chess set with saints as the pieces.  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2012, 12:03:35 AM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

And I'm fairly certain that St. Augustine never claimed that the Creed said 'from the Son'
So is it true that by affirming the filioque, he knowingly went against the creed, but is nevertheless  declared to be a saint in heaven by the Holy Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2012, 01:42:03 AM »

Many, if not most in Eastern Orthodoxy consider him the Blessed Augustine.  The Orthodox Church recognizes saints for particular specified reasons.  Saints were people in this life and are not necessarily considered to have lived in total perfection.
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 02:30:18 AM »

St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son. And yet, he was declared a Father of the Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553. In the Sixth Ecumenical Council, he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Saint Augustine."
If St. Augustine was a heretic, then why do many in  the Orthodox Church revere him as a saint and celebrate his feast day on June 15 ?

As most theologians of the church, they are mostly correct, ie to say that no one is perfect.
So a heretic can be a saint?

Why, sure, Stanley.  Let's see....if, say, you're one of those Orthodox who believe that Catholics are heretics, and Jose Maria Escriva (a Catholic) is a Saint as the Catholic Church declares, then.....bingo!  You've got a saint who's a heretic.  Or, is it a heretic who's a saint  Huh  Think I need another beer  Grin.
So it is not a mortal sin to teach heresy? You can teach heresy and be a saint at the same time?

"Knowingly* teaching heresy would be a sin.
I suspect that St. Augustine knew exactly what was stated in the Nicene Creed.

And I'm fairly certain that St. Augustine never claimed that the Creed said 'from the Son'
So is it true that by affirming the filioque, he knowingly went against the creed, but is nevertheless  declared to be a saint in heaven by the Holy Orthodox Church?

I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you, but I'll try to lay it out.

The Creed is less than a page long. St. Augustine wrote thousands of pages on Christian doctrine. In those thousands of pages, he wrote many, many things which were not in the Creed. Some of those things he was correct about, some not so much. Whatever he wrote, even the stuff he later came back and corrected himself, I am sure that at the time he wrote it, he sincerely believe it was consistent with the creed.

One of the things St. Augustine was not correct about was the relationship of the Spirit and the Son. Orthodox do not take this as 'knowingly going against the Creed' because
1) St. Augustine did not 'affirm the filioque' because the filioque had not been inserted into the Creed during his lifetime. It's likely that his writings on the topic were part of the reason that happened, but the earliest known examples of it being inserted in the Creed (or in creedal-type statements) occur well after his repose.
1b) even if St. Augustine had inserted it into the Creed, he lived before the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon ruled that no changes to the Creed were to be allowed. So if he had written a personal variation of the creed which included the filioque, he would have been wrong on the topic--but not wrong in placing himself above an Ecumenical Council as those Westerners who insisted on the actual filioque at later dates were.
2) There is no evidence that St. Augustine held to his opinion on the relationship of the Spirit and Son in the face of correction. If, one of his contemporaries, like, for example the Cappadocian Fathers, had gotten hold of his writings on the Spirit and sent him a correction which he rejected; or if there was any evidence that he had read their works and written against them, then 'stubborn perseverance in error' might be an issue, but there is no evidence of any thing like that occurring.
2a) St. Augustine never condemned anyone or broke communion with them over their differing with him on this topic (again, there's little evidence he even realized that his contemporaries in the East were writing much more accurate explanations).

As I already did in the other thread, I point you to the parallel of saints who lived well before the iconoclast controversy who had negative things to say about images. They had a personal opinion--that opinion was wrong, but since they never got into an argument with those whose opinion was Orthodox and supported error in the face of correction we simply acknowledge that no one but God is actually perfect.
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 07:17:48 AM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son.

Interesting. I used to be big on EWTN, yet I heard anyone on EWTN talk about the procession of the Holy Spirit. Any idea what the show was called?
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2012, 07:30:26 AM »

Does anyone know of any writings of St. Augustine in which he specifically mentions the creed? A few years ago I read a commentary he wrote about John 15:26, but as best as I can recall he doesn't mention the fact that said verse was incorporated into the creed. (It might have been something he wrote before 381, I don't recall. Edit: On second thought, probably not, b/c he only converted in 387.)
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2012, 07:48:33 AM »

I think A Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed is sort of a short explanation, but I'm not very familiar with St. Augustine and am not aware of anything more detailed.
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2012, 08:13:26 AM »

I think A Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed is sort of a short explanation, but I'm not very familiar with St. Augustine and am not aware of anything more detailed.

Interesting. I don't think he's commenting on either the Creed of 325 or the Creed of 381, but perhaps something closer to the Apostles' Creed.
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2012, 08:17:24 AM »

I think A Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed is sort of a short explanation, but I'm not very familiar with St. Augustine and am not aware of anything more detailed.

Interesting. I don't think he's commenting on either the Creed of 325 or the Creed of 381, but perhaps something closer to the Apostles' Creed.

Huh, that's possible. I should have read back through it before posting it. I remember in another place he mentioned specifically that creed and went over it a bit (Rather than the Nicene/Constantinopolitan one), so perhaps he was doing the same here.
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« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2012, 04:50:30 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son.

Interesting. I used to be big on EWTN, yet I heard anyone on EWTN talk about the procession of the Holy Spirit. Any idea what the show was called?

It was Open Line yesterday afternoon (Monday) with John Martignoni.
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« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2012, 07:10:26 PM »

I was listening to a Catholic apologetic on EWTN today, and to surmise his lengthy explanation, he said that the Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son.

Interesting. I used to be big on EWTN, yet I heard anyone on EWTN talk about the procession of the Holy Spirit. Any idea what the show was called?

It was Open Line yesterday afternoon (Monday) with John Martignoni.

Thanks, arnI.  Smiley I'm not familiar with that show -- although that's really not saying very much, since I'm probably unfamiliar with the majority of the shows they've created in the last 10 years.
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« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2012, 09:25:49 PM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2012, 10:15:39 PM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?
He is begotten of the One from Whom the Spirit processes.
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« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2012, 11:11:42 PM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?

If the Son is begotten only of the Father, doesn't this leave the Holy Spirit of out the picture? How is He connected to this begetting?
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« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2012, 11:28:59 PM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?

If the Son is begotten only of the Father, doesn't this leave the Holy Spirit of out the picture? How is He connected to this begetting?
I don't know. I am new to this stuff.
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« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2012, 12:19:57 AM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?

If the Son is begotten only of the Father, doesn't this leave the Holy Spirit of out the picture? How is He connected to this begetting?
I don't know. I am new to this stuff.

You are getting the gist of my point, but it has nothing to do with how 'new' you are to the question. You don't know. I don't know. Nobody knows. Because the Trinity, the existence of God as Three Persons but One Essence is not something that man figured out on his own or ever could have figure out. The existence of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is know to us through, and only through Revelation. That God came and showed it to us. We know that the Son is 'begotten' but we don't know the mechanics of that process, how He can be begotten 'before all ages', how He can be a distinct Person, the Son, yet one and the same God as the Father. In the case of the Spirit, the Son told us, "The Spirit proceeds from the Father." That's what has been revealed. Anything else is vain speculation, an attempt to bring God's transcendent existence down into terms that make sense to us--a process that is inherently false because a God that makes sense to us is a God of our own minds and not the God who transcends everything He has created.
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« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2012, 01:12:54 AM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father..."  Article 2, Symbol of the Faith

"...of one essence with the Father..."  Article 3, Symbol of Faith
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 01:18:26 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2012, 01:16:39 AM »

If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, doesn't this leave Christ out of the picture? How is He connected to this procession?

If the Son is begotten only of the Father, doesn't this leave the Holy Spirit of out the picture? How is He connected to this begetting?

"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified..."  Article 9, Symbol of Faith
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