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Author Topic: Top 10 Saints?  (Read 5695 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2012, 03:30:19 PM »

I find it disturbing that no one has mentioned St. Germanus I of Constantinople yet.

You just did.

Nah, I don't think he is all that great. His commentary on the Divine Liturgy was ok, if you go in for all that spiritualizing stuff, but other than that I don't know anything about him. I just find it disturbing that no one else called him one of the ten greatest. How is it possible?  Huh
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« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2012, 03:32:13 PM »

The Ecumenical Council said that St. Augustine is a Saint so anyone who objects his Sainthood is advocating heresy. Augustine did make some theological screw-ups, but all the Saints had their mistakes. For example, St. John Chrysostom was an anti-Semite who said he hates the Jews yet none of us object to his Sainthood. St. Augustine was a man who truly loved God, turned his life around but made some big theological mistakes.
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« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2012, 03:42:33 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.
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« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2012, 03:44:21 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

The Filioque is not necessarily the problem; we were entirely aware of it for centuries and still remained in communion with the west. The problem is that your Church declared it a dogma.
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« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2012, 03:50:55 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

Fwiw, St. Photius perhaps summed up the approach many Orthodox take regarding this kind of thing:

"Even so, if any among [the Church Fathers] has fallen into something unseemly--for they were all men and human, and no one composed of dust and ephemeral nature can avoid some trace of defilement--I would then imitate the sons of Noah and cover my father's shame with silence and gratitude instead of a garment..." (Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, 72)
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« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2012, 03:51:38 PM »

The Ecumenical Council said that St. Augustine is a Saint so anyone who objects his Sainthood is advocating heresy.

So you are declaring anathema on 'anti-augustinianism'? Seriously? You need to get a grip.

St. Augustine is a saint. But the Faith has never rested on either the theological correctness or the righteousness of any human individual. The Faith is Jesus Christ, and so long as people are correct about that, they can be completely wrong about every saint in heaven and still not be a heretic.
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« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

Fwiw, St. Photius perhaps summed up the approach many Orthodox take regarding this kind of thing:

"Even so, if any among [the Church Fathers] has fallen into something unseemly--for they were all men and human, and no one composed of dust and ephemeral nature can avoid some trace of defilement--I would then imitate the sons of Noah and cover my father's shame with silence and gratitude instead of a garment..." (Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, 72)

QFT
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« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2012, 03:54:17 PM »

I find it disturbing that no one has mentioned St. Germanus I of Constantinople yet.

You just did.

Nah, I don't think he is all that great. His commentary on the Divine Liturgy was ok, if you go in for all that spiritualizing stuff, but other than that I don't know anything about him. I just find it disturbing that no one else called him one of the ten greatest. How is it possible?  Huh

This place never ceases to amaze me  Roll Eyes Grin.  But then, nobody's mentioned St. Werburga, either.  Go figure.
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« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2012, 03:57:02 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

So you ARE bothered by the fact that we agree with you on something. What would you rather have us to do? Ask forgiveness from the pope for revering a Catholic Saint?
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« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2012, 04:42:57 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

So you ARE bothered by the fact that we agree with you on something. What would you rather have us to do? Ask forgiveness from the pope for revering a Catholic Saint?
No. If you forgive a saint for his teaching on the filioque, why is it not possible to forgive a Catholic for the same?
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« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2012, 05:04:33 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

So you ARE bothered by the fact that we agree with you on something. What would you rather have us to do? Ask forgiveness from the pope for revering a Catholic Saint?
No. If you forgive a saint for his teaching on the filioque, why is it not possible to forgive a Catholic for the same?

I don't think 'forgive' is the right word, but in any case:
History and 20/20 hindsight. For some 6 centuries the East was willing to overlook the ambiguous/troubling aspects of the filioque as a personal opinion among Westerners. Then the West tried to force it on the East and split off into their own Church when the East refused. Then the West exacerbated the issue by officially declaring the filioque a dogma (rather than personal opinion) and then removing the ambiguity and defining (at Lyons and then Florence) the filioque in a distinctly heretical way.

It would be simply irresponsible of the Orthodox Church in the present day not to insist that Rome remove the 'rock of offense'.

There are saints from the 2nd and 3rd and 4th centuries who said negative things about the use of images. As long as that was their personal opinion and they didn't divide the church, that was understandable. But once the iconoclasts split the Church by trying to make their personal opinion into official doctrine of the Church, iconoclasm was clearly identified as a heresy and no orthodox Christian since can in good conscience hold it.
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« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2012, 07:16:29 PM »

You are a Roman Catholic. Why does it bother you that we revere one of the most imporant Saints of your own tradition? Shouldn't you rather be happy that we have something in common?
But the RCC and the EOC do not have the filioque in common. And the filioque was taught by St. Augustine.

The Filioque is not necessarily the problem; we were entirely aware of it for centuries and still remained in communion with the west. The problem is that your Church declared it a dogma.
If the filioque is not the problem, then does that mean that it is OK to hold the filioque as a theological opinion?
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« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2012, 07:23:31 PM »

Stanley123, can't you discuss your off-topic in a separate thread? Why do you behave so annoyingly?
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2012, 12:09:30 AM »

Stanley123, ... Why do you behave so annoyingly?
Because it seems anomalous that on the one hand a Saint is in a top ten list of all Orthodox Saints in the world, and yet on the other hand he teaches the filioque.
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2012, 12:17:23 AM »

St. Augustine is a Saint no matter what he wrote and what others think about him.

who died and made u a pope ?  police
He was canonized in one of the Ecumenical Councils.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2012, 12:38:05 AM »

St. Augustine is a Saint no matter what he wrote and what others think about him.

who died and made u a pope ?  police
He was canonized in one of the Ecumenical Councils.

Michal was canonized?
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2012, 12:38:31 AM »

Stanley123, ... Why do you behave so annoyingly?
Because it seems anomalous that on the one hand a Saint is in a top ten list of all Orthodox Saints in the world, and yet on the other hand he teaches the filioque.

Many prominent saints held to positions which, at best, are discouraged today.
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2012, 12:47:44 AM »

St. John Chrysostom was an anti-Semite who said he hates the Jews yet none of us object to his Sainthood.

Sigh...
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2012, 01:29:53 AM »

Stanley123, ... Why do you behave so annoyingly?
Because it seems anomalous that on the one hand a Saint is in a top ten list of all Orthodox Saints in the world, and yet on the other hand he teaches the filioque.

He's 'top 10' on the personal list of a couple of individuals. Which is all this thread was supposed to be about --not what the ten most theologically important/reliable saints or what are the 10 most popular saints among all Orthodox in general (and in which case St. Augustine would probably not make either list).

There's already 2 other active threads actually intended to discuss the Orthodox attitude to the filioque--why not keep the discussion of St. Augustine's theology there instead of dragging this thread which was just supposed to be a personal sharing thread off-topic?
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2012, 02:30:26 AM »

The Ecumenical Council said that St. Augustine is a Saint so anyone who objects his Sainthood is advocating heresy.
No, because the status of one person does not directly concern the teachings of the Church.
I object to the sainthood of the last Russian tsar. Does that make me a heretic?
And btw, Christos Yannaras surely is a much better Orthodox theologian than St. Augustine.


all the Saints had their mistakes. For example, St. John Chrysostom was an anti-Semite who said he hates the Jews
That's not really true. He rather hated the Judaizers, ie Christians who mixed their faith with Jewish elements.
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2012, 02:57:35 AM »

all the Saints had their mistakes. For example, St. John Chrysostom was an anti-Semite who said he hates the Jews
That's not really true. He rather hated the Judaizers, ie Christians who mixed their faith with Jewish elements.

Along with the Jews who were actively persecuting Christians at the time.  Just a reckless statement that should've been caught by some sort of brain filter.
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2012, 05:05:21 AM »

The Ecumenical Council said that St. Augustine is a Saint so anyone who objects his Sainthood is advocating heresy.
No, because the status of one person does not directly concern the teachings of the Church.
I object to the sainthood of the last Russian tsar. Does that make me a heretic?
And btw, Christos Yannaras surely is a much better Orthodox theologian than St. Augustine.


all the Saints had their mistakes. For example, St. John Chrysostom was an anti-Semite who said he hates the Jews
That's not really true. He rather hated the Judaizers, ie Christians who mixed their faith with Jewish elements.


Many Christians did at this time, no ? Barnabas for instance.
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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2012, 11:41:30 AM »

I'll just post the ones that are dear to me.

1. St. John of Kronstadt (my patron)
2. St. Herman of Alaska
3. St. Feofil of the Kiev Caves, Fool for Christ
4. St. George the Great Martyr
5. St. Papa Nicholas Planas
6. St. Nekatrios of Aegina
7. St. Theophan the Recluse
8. St. Silouan the Athonite
9. St. Basil the Great
10. St. Xenia of Petersburg

And
11. St. Nicholas of Myra
12. St. John Maximovitch
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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2012, 12:38:19 PM »

Along with the Jews who were actively persecuting Christians at the time. 

Jews persecuting Christians after the Theodosius' Edict? Something does not match.

Many Christians did at this time, no ? Barnabas for instance.

That time? After 300 years?

My list (in no particular order):

1. St. Gregory Peradze
2. St. Basil Martysz (more generally the Synaxis of the Saints of the Chełm Land and Podlachia)
3. St. John Maximovitch
4. St. Gorazd Pavlik
5. St. Athanasius of Brest.
6. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk
7. St. Cyrill of Turov
8. St. Gabriel of Zabłudów
9. St. Cyprian of Carthage
10. St. Theodore Tyron
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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2012, 01:38:41 PM »

Along with the Jews who were actively persecuting Christians at the time. 

Jews persecuting Christians after the Theodosius' Edict? Something does not match.

My understanding was that Jews were still quite powerful in Antioch during the earlier portion of St. John's Christian life.  Perhaps the active persecutions and meddling stopped or lessened after Theodosius' Edict, but that doesn't mean the Jews ceased to be influential or an adversarial force. 

The reason I commented was that St. John has some comments that appear not to be directed to Judaizers, but to Jews themselves. There is a difference between referring to Jews in a religious or ethnic context, and JamesR implied it was the latter.

I'll admit that much of my knowledge about this topic comes from a Search the Scriptures podcast called "Was St. John Chrysostom an Anti-Semite?".  If one can make it through the disclaimers and "man of his time" comments, it gets going pretty good.

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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2012, 01:56:56 PM »

In your opinion, who are the top ten greatest Saints in the Church NOT mentioned in the Scriptures? This is my list, in order from least to greatest.

#10) St. Constantine

#9) St. Nicholas

#8) St. John Chrysostom

#7) St. Maximus the Confessor

#6) St. Antony of Egypt

#5) St. Moses the Ethiopian

#4) St. Augustine of Hippo

#3) St. Athanasius

#2) St. Mary of Egypt

#1) St. Monica
This is an interesting question, and of course, there are other saints who also deserve to be in the top ten.  I don't have any problem with your list; however, an Orthodox priest (Antioch) told me that Augustine was Blessed, but not a saint. I don't remember exactly, but I think that the objections to his sainthood were based in part on the overly rationalistic tone of parts of his theology, together with his filioque belief.

Come on everyone, you know it had it to happen. We really have to start having over/unders on this sorta stuff. PM me if you want to get in on the action in the future.

I assume there's some way to also factor in whether the objection will come from an Orthodox or a Roman Catholic? (That part actually surprised me this time around).

Absolutely, wherever there is money to be had.
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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2012, 02:00:06 PM »

$10 dollars to the member's charity of choice if they can name the Saint I've been holding back on.

No member of Schnuck's is allowed to compete, although they can feel free to comment on other's guesses. But don't give any hints which will make it too obvious.
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2012, 02:26:10 PM »

$10 dollars to the member's charity of choice if they can name the Saint I've been holding back on.

No member of Schnuck's is allowed to compete, although they can feel free to comment on other's guesses. But don't give any hints which will make it too obvious.

Other than St. Orthonorm of Galicia?  Perhaps St. Simeon the Stylite.  That's my guess.
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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2012, 02:26:46 PM »

I object to the sainthood of the last Russian tsar. Does that make me a heretic?

And btw, Christos Yannaras surely is a much better Orthodox theologian than St. Augustine.

Anyone who has died and now dwells in heaven is a saint. If you are a better judge of these men's status in the Kingdom of God than the Catholic Church, call your bishop and inform him of the Church's mistake.

You can object to their formal designation in your heart, I suppose. That would not be heretical, per se, in my opinion, but it would be prideful. In any case, don't teach others to do likewise.
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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2012, 02:40:42 PM »

$10 dollars to the member's charity of choice if they can name the Saint I've been holding back on.

No member of Schnuck's is allowed to compete, although they can feel free to comment on other's guesses. But don't give any hints which will make it too obvious.

Other than St. Orthonorm of Galicia?  Perhaps St. Simeon the Stylite.  That's my guess.

No obvious attention whoring here (other than turning this into a contest by yours truly).

A thoroughly "Western" Saint, if there ever was one.
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« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »

St. Herman of Alaska Wonderworker of All America (August 9)
St. Innocent Equal-to-the-Apostles and Enlightener of North America (March 31 and October 6)
St. Tikhon of Moscow Patriarch of Moscow and Apostle to America (April 7 and October 9)
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory the Theologian
St. Mary of Egypt
St. Seraphim of Sarov
St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Elizabeth the New Martyr
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« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2012, 02:56:59 PM »

What, no Russian Saints?

St. John of Kronstadt
St. Seraphim of Sarov
St. Tikon
St. Elizabeth (Grand Duchess)
and our own
St. Herman and
St. John Maximovitch
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2012, 03:32:01 PM »

Anyone who has died and now dwells in heaven is a saint.

My objection is related to the following definition of a saint: "Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint)

Do the 1905 workers' massacres show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? I hope not.
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2012, 03:32:54 PM »

$10 dollars to the member's charity of choice if they can name the Saint I've been holding back on.

No member of Schnuck's is allowed to compete, although they can feel free to comment on other's guesses. But don't give any hints which will make it too obvious.

Other than St. Orthonorm of Galicia?  Perhaps St. Simeon the Stylite.  That's my guess.

No obvious attention whoring here (other than turning this into a contest by yours truly).

A thoroughly "Western" Saint, if there ever was one.

Anyone who has paid even moderate attention to your posts should be able to get the right name, based on this clue.
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« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2012, 03:43:35 PM »

Anyone who has died and now dwells in heaven is a saint.

My objection is related to the following definition of a saint: "Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint)

Do the 1905 workers' massacres show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? I hope not.

Did the thief on the cross show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? Not until the last hour of his life. Did St. Paul, when he was murdering Christians? You can't take one snapshot from a person's life and define them by it. That basically rejects the redemption that our religion teaches.

No one ever claimed St. Tsar Nicholas was an icon of Christ in everything he did. Doesn't mean he's not a saint. The Romanovs are considered passionbearers, which means they bore their suffering in a Christlike manner. Certainly after their arrest they showed what it meant to follow Christ, and their martyric death sealed it.

Again, if you know better than the Church that he is among the saints, take it up with the proper authorities.
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« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2012, 04:56:02 PM »

Anyone who has died and now dwells in heaven is a saint.

My objection is related to the following definition of a saint: "Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint)

Do the 1905 workers' massacres show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? I hope not.

Did the thief on the cross show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? Not until the last hour of his life. Did St. Paul, when he was murdering Christians? You can't take one snapshot from a person's life and define them by it. That basically rejects the redemption that our religion teaches.

No one ever claimed St. Tsar Nicholas was an icon of Christ in everything he did. Doesn't mean he's not a saint. The Romanovs are considered passionbearers, which means they bore their suffering in a Christlike manner. Certainly after their arrest they showed what it meant to follow Christ, and their martyric death sealed it.

Again, if you know better than the Church that he is among the saints, take it up with the proper authorities.

What did they do after their arrest that you are referring to?
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« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2012, 05:11:45 PM »

Anyone who has died and now dwells in heaven is a saint.

My objection is related to the following definition of a saint: "Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint)

Do the 1905 workers' massacres show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? I hope not.

Did the thief on the cross show what it means to follow Jesus Christ? Not until the last hour of his life. Did St. Paul, when he was murdering Christians? You can't take one snapshot from a person's life and define them by it. That basically rejects the redemption that our religion teaches.

No one ever claimed St. Tsar Nicholas was an icon of Christ in everything he did. Doesn't mean he's not a saint. The Romanovs are considered passionbearers, which means they bore their suffering in a Christlike manner. Certainly after their arrest they showed what it meant to follow Christ, and their martyric death sealed it.

Again, if you know better than the Church that he is among the saints, take it up with the proper authorities.

No other act or decision of a local church is considered infallilble or unquestionable, so why would the synodal glorification of an individual as a saint be any different?
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« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »

Do we have any evidence of repentance in that issue? I surely hope he is in heaven, but I simply do not see how he is a model to be emulated for any of us...
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« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2012, 05:41:36 PM »

Not necessarily the 10 greatest, but 10 very dear to me:

St. John the Merciful of Alexandria
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory the Theologian
St. Olav of Norway
St. Cyril of Alexandria
St. John of Damascus
St. Silouan the Athonite
St. Mary of Egypt
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« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2012, 12:05:28 AM »

but I simply do not see how he is a model to be emulated for any of us...

He was fairly family-oriented despite being an emperor and all. He might have been a cruel politician but I see him more as a patron of family.
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« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2012, 04:33:22 AM »

No other act or decision of a local church is considered infallilble or unquestionable, so why would the synodal glorification of an individual as a saint be any different?

It was accepted by other Churches.
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« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2012, 04:41:49 AM »

No other act or decision of a local church is considered infallilble or unquestionable, so why would the synodal glorification of an individual as a saint be any different?

It was accepted by other Churches.

Was it? Is there any formal statement of acceptance? I have not seen the last Russian tsar being venerated as a saint in non-Russian parishes.
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« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2012, 04:52:50 AM »

There was no formal denial.

It looks like he is venerated by the EP and AP:
http://www.antiochian.org/node/18899
http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Nikolai_II
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« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2012, 05:13:07 AM »


While that is a Finnish Orthodox website he is not on our Church's calendar. Probably due to the all the politics involved. He is mostly seen as a traitor-Tsar who tried to russify Finland and take away the autonomy that Finland had within the Russian empire.
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« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2012, 06:04:28 AM »

The Finnish website only mentions the canonizations by ROCOR and MP. It does neither call him saint itself, nor mention any kind of veneration in the Finnish Church.

As for the American Antiochians, they are reproducing something they received from the OCA, I wonder if the PAtriarchate in Damascus is even aware of that. Probably, though, they have other problems at the moment..
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