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Author Topic: Serbian priest shot by armed robbers in Bosnia  (Read 3495 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2012, 02:36:06 AM »

Is this about a Serbian priest or who's gonna save poor old Greece? 
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 03:35:48 AM »

Zenovia, I appreciate your perspective, but I couldn't get through the first bit without having some questions and issues.

God is Creation and therefore Pure Love.
Why does Creation = Pure Love?

Quote
 Any form of destruction is a negation of God's Creation and Love, so how can God destroy?

He can destroy if He wishes, can't He? What if destruction is a negation of things God did not create, e.g. sin, evil?
 
Quote
We know  that the Holy Spirit cannot guide people to kill others, since He is a Spirit of Comfort and Love.  He gives people peace.   This full revelation of God as we know Him, was not known before the Incarnation.  At that time God could only be understood in a certain way, and that made Him appear in the OT as merciless and cruel.

Did God order the slaughter of the Canaanites or not? 
   
If He didn't, then our scripture is unreliable and unhelpful.  If He did, then it's difficult to deny that there is God sanctioned violence in Christian Scripture.
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 12:57:00 PM »

Zenovia, I appreciate your perspective, but I couldn't get through the first bit without having some questions and issues.

God is Creation and therefore Pure Love.
Why does Creation = Pure Love?

Quote
 Any form of destruction is a negation of God's Creation and Love, so how can God destroy?

He can destroy if He wishes, can't He? What if destruction is a negation of things God did not create, e.g. sin, evil?

But sin in itself is a negation of the full potential  given to man by God so how can it be created by God?  I think a better word for 'sin' would be a personality 'limitation' since that's what it is really. 
Quote
 
Quote
We know  that the Holy Spirit cannot guide people to kill others, since He is a Spirit of Comfort and Love.  He gives people peace.   This full revelation of God as we know Him, was not known before the Incarnation.  At that time God could only be understood in a certain way, and that made Him appear in the OT as merciless and cruel.

Did God order the slaughter of the Canaanites or not?
   
If He didn't, then our scripture is unreliable and unhelpful.  If He did, then it's difficult to deny that there is God sanctioned violence in Christian Scripture.

[/quote]

I think  the reason God appears differently in the OT has to do in the way things were interpreted in the pre Christian Semitic world.  In Christianity we would  say that God allowed  something to occur, while in the OT they would interpret it as  God having ordered it.  But how can God order destruction, wouldn't it be against His Nature? Huh

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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2012, 01:18:36 PM »

Eh...realistically, though, even though Muslims are the largest single religious group in the country (45%), the town where this happened is 90% Serb, so it's less likely that it is a Muslim. Though of course it can't be ruled out. (Sources: Demographics of Derventa and demographics of wider Bosnia)

And yet even if an Orthodox Christian is not devout, they are superstitious. so they don't  readily kill  priests.  On the other hand in Islamic countries,  priests are  killed continuously by fanatics in order to ethnically cleanse an area of Christians.  I should think in Bosnia  they would be even more determined to do so.    Cry
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2012, 01:50:03 PM »

Couldn't it also have been two robbers who happened to be violent? I mean, it have happened before.
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2012, 02:53:37 PM »

Couldn't it also have been two robbers who happened to be violent? I mean, it have happened before.

Priests do not have much money, so it is rare for them to be robbed unless there's a political motive behind it.  Of course everything is possible.  If we were to use  Egypt and the other Islamic nations as an example, then I doubt they'll find the criminals and even if they did, they'd probably get a very light  sentence... if any sentence at all.   Huh
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2012, 04:47:37 PM »

Gabriel, as usual, your input on this subject is appreciated.
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« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2012, 02:28:39 AM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

 
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« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2012, 02:40:46 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.
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« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2012, 02:43:15 AM »

Gabriel, as usual, your input on this subject is appreciated.

+1

I am also grateful for Theophilos's views on the subject matter.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia, it just follows the bottom line of profit margin, and in any given society, immigrants will naturally work for less money than locals, because they have migrated for work in the first place.  If Greeks didn't want Muslims, then they wouldn't be hiring them in the first place!  It is the same with the undocumented immigrant debate here in the US, folks want to have their cake and eat it to.  Folks who oppose amnesty measures also tend to support deregulation of business, and it is these businesses which hire and attract undocumented workers, sometimes quite literally through international recruiting.  So if Greeks didn't want Muslims in their country, they sure could have fooled the rest of the world considering Muslims come in to work, and Greeks keep hiring them.  Further, I must admit my bias, I detest the term "illegal" because I find it dehumanizing, I'd prefer to use the more literal term of "undocumented" because the are humans, they just lack paperwork.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.
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« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »

Quote from: HabteSelassie
Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

Are you serious?
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« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2012, 02:00:26 PM »

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.
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« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2012, 02:04:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia, it just follows the bottom line of profit margin, and in any given society, immigrants will naturally work for less money than locals, because they have migrated for work in the first place.  If Greeks didn't want Muslims, then they wouldn't be hiring them in the first place!  It is the same with the undocumented immigrant debate here in the US, folks want to have their cake and eat it to.  Folks who oppose amnesty measures also tend to support deregulation of business, and it is these businesses which hire and attract undocumented workers, sometimes quite literally through international recruiting.  So if Greeks didn't want Muslims in their country, they sure could have fooled the rest of the world considering Muslims come in to work, and Greeks keep hiring them.  Further, I must admit my bias, I detest the term "illegal" because I find it dehumanizing, I'd prefer to use the more literal term of "undocumented" because the are humans, they just lack paperwork.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The situation in Europe, and especially in the entry points of the Mediterranean is way different than the U.S.   The Pakistanis, Afghans, Bangladesh have no work in Greece.  If they are given any, it's out of kindness so they won't starve.  Most of them  can be seen begging for money as they wipe windshields.  They had originally hoped to get to Britain but according to the EU law, even if they did manage to get out of Greece, they would be sent  back if caught. 

The Albanians were needed for construction work, and they are hard workers, but with the situation, many returned to Albania.  They, as well as the other Eastern Europeans have assimilated beautifully, and they have always been welcome providing they are not Muslims.  Today there are one million Muslims in a population of eleven million.  The Greek people have lived under Islam for over three hundred years and fought hard for their freedom, they do not want to end up in dhimmitude again.  Do not believe for one moment that this influx of illegals has nothing to do with the religious political agenda of Islam. 

If you want to find out how Islam managed to wipe out all the Christians in the Near and Middle East, I suggest you read Horton's book:  The  Blight of Asia.  It's on the internet.  The book is very informative because the same methods that were used one hundred and two hundred years ago, I find are being used today as well:

http://www.pahh.com/horton/

Anyway do not compare the situation in Europe with the U.S., and just thank God that the Mexicans are Christians.   angel
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« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2012, 02:25:20 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.
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« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2012, 02:37:14 PM »

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.

You know when the Russians kicked out the Muslim Circassians in the late 1800's, the Istanbul slave markets were packed with  Circassian women who were known for their beauty.  They became so cheap that the men began kicking out their black slaves....and yet there are no mulattos in Turkey.    I read that the babies born of black mothers in the harems were automatically killed.   Angry
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« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural chauvinism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.

Dude, it isn't an either/or, us-them issue.  Immigrants are immigrants.  Exploitation is exploitation.  But I think you missed my point so let me reiterate:

Quote
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 

Nonsense, with God nothing is impossible.  However, if we continue to turn to our own human efforts at this process, we will inherently fail.  Our Christian brothers and sisters need to focus on prayer, not war. 

As to the persecution of Christian laborers in Arab countries, which of course affects thousands of Ethiopians too, you are conflating two separate issues.  I was responding to a xenophobic post which was insinuating some kind of Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe, when actuality it is economics plain and simple.  Folks from less developed countries tend to migrate legally or illegally to countries where there is work. If folks in those countries don't want immigrant populations, especially undocumented, then these employers should be held accountable.  As to the rights of laborers and the labor movement, I couldn't agree more with you, exploitation of any source of labor is a moral issue which I strongly disagree with at every level.


The situation in Europe, and especially in the entry points of the Mediterranean is way different than the U.S.   The Pakistanis, Afghans, Bangladesh have no work in Greece.  If they are given any, it's out of kindness so they won't starve.  Most of them  can be seen begging for money as they wipe windshields.  They had originally hoped to get to Britain but according to the EU law, even if they did manage to get out of Greece, they would be sent  back if caught. 

The Albanians were needed for construction work, and they are hard workers, but with the situation, many returned to Albania.  They, as well as the other Eastern Europeans have assimilated beautifully, and they have always been welcome providing they are not Muslims.  Today there are one million Muslims in a population of eleven million.  The Greek people have lived under Islam for over three hundred years and fought hard for their freedom, they do not want to end up in dhimmitude again.  Do not believe for one moment that this influx of illegals has nothing to do with the religious political agenda of Islam. 

That is true, the EU politics shape what happens in Greece in different ways.  However, I think my point stands, that it is largely economic and not sociocultural factors which drive immigration, especially undocumented.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.

You're right. I overstepped the bounds of his original argument here, based on my history of disagreement with him on related subjects. That's not right. Habte (and everybody), I am sorry.

I stand by the rest of my post, though. I don't see how it could be that economic factors somehow shut out discrimination, though perhaps I've misread him on this point, too.
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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2012, 03:56:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.

You're right. I overstepped the bounds of his original argument here, based on my history of disagreement with him on related subjects. That's not right. Habte (and everybody), I am sorry.


Thank you, likewise I apologize if I have been to insensitive or assertive in my discussions, these are sensitive issues to say the least Smiley

I respect all of y'all and the diversity of viewpoints, but it is always important that we mutually respect each other, something I am just as guilty of violating as anyone.

Lord have His Mercy on me, a sinner.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 03:56:34 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2012, 05:08:33 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.
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« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2012, 05:12:15 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?
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« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2012, 05:25:48 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?

Egypt and Northern Cyprus are not exactly happy places for Christians, and there are three generations in my family still living who remember the pain and loss they experienced there.

Is it my own experience? No, though I have experienced the effects of it, which were not particularly fun themselves.

My own feelings towards Islam rise no higher than disquiet, but I simply cannot stand people who have experienced nothing of Islamic domination telling those who have that they are simply paranoid bigots and that, in any case, Christianity/Christians is/are just as bad anyway.

I think the suspicions and heightened emotions of those who have suffered are understandable and even perhaps justified. I have already said, though, that they might require correction. I only say that such correction should be done in the right way: not dismissively and without sensitivity.

In another context, it would be me making defence of Islam and Muslims.
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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2012, 05:29:45 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.
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« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2012, 05:32:43 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...
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« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2012, 05:34:46 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...

I think an honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will show a far greater equivalence than most Christians are willing to deal with.
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The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

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« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2012, 05:45:41 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...

Don't worry, Aki.  Some of us have read their history books.

If you have six kids and five of them have each been in a fight one time and the sixth has been in a fight five times...oh, and has the other five kids' lunch money...I tend to make an inference here and there about kiddo #6's culpability.

As Gabriel pointed out (and Huntington before him) - Islam has bloody borders.  Perhaps the Christians (Eastern and Western), Indians, Africans, and Chinese all got together one day and decided to beat up Islam...but somehow I doubt it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 05:46:44 PM by vamrat » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.
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« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2012, 06:33:52 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.
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« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.
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« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 
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« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2012, 09:44:23 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?
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« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2012, 10:03:12 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?

Well, though some of these aren't wars, there were the Years of Lead in Italy just a couple decades ago, there were the troubles in Ireland, there was the Basque conflict, while not exactly Western Europe, there was the Greek Civil War in the '40's, there was the Spanish Civil War, there was the Irish Civil War, the Irish War of Independence, though - again - not exactly Western Europe, there was a war between Hungary and Romania around 1920, the world wars of course, the Austro-Prussian War, the various wars of Italian independence, the Hungarian revolution, and probably many things I've either forgotten or didn't know about.

Then if we include the United States, there was the invasion of Panama, Grenada, the Vietnam War (no Muslims involved to the best of my knowledge), the US invasion of the Dominican Republic, the Korean War of course, the Spanish-American War, and countless other conflicts.

Then there have also been many other wars not involving any Muslims at all, such as the First Indochina War, the civil war in Paraguay, the civil war in Costa Rica, the Laotian civil war, a civil war in Guatemala.

Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover), we could mention the Holocaust, the mass murder committed by Stalin, the Cultural Revolution sponsored by Mao, the terrible, terrible things that the Japanese did to prisoners of war, the horrible persecutions of the British against the Irish, and against Catholics, etc., etc.
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« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2012, 10:50:05 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?

Well, though some of these aren't wars, there were the Years of Lead in Italy just a couple decades ago, there were the troubles in Ireland, there was the Basque conflict, while not exactly Western Europe, there was the Greek Civil War in the '40's, there was the Spanish Civil War, there was the Irish Civil War, the Irish War of Independence, though - again - not exactly Western Europe, there was a war between Hungary and Romania around 1920, the world wars of course, the Austro-Prussian War, the various wars of Italian independence, the Hungarian revolution, and probably many things I've either forgotten or didn't know about.

Then if we include the United States, there was the invasion of Panama, Grenada, the Vietnam War (no Muslims involved to the best of my knowledge), the US invasion of the Dominican Republic, the Korean War of course, the Spanish-American War, and countless other conflicts.

Then there have also been many other wars not involving any Muslims at all, such as the First Indochina War, the civil war in Paraguay, the civil war in Costa Rica, the Laotian civil war, a civil war in Guatemala.

Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover), we could mention the Holocaust, the mass murder committed by Stalin, the Cultural Revolution sponsored by Mao, the terrible, terrible things that the Japanese did to prisoners of war, the horrible persecutions of the British against the Irish, and against Catholics, etc., etc.


In just about every case you mentioned, there has been a movement towards peace.  How many Northern Sudanese are protesting against their governments persecution of Christians in the south?  How many Saudis?  How many Iranians? 

As for bloody borders, almost everywhere where moslems become a majority there is strife.  Just about every frontier they share with another ethnicity there is strife.

How many European border struggles are there these days?  Ireland has mostly settled down and when some RIRA guy blows up a shop he is condemned by the British AND Sinn Fein.  The only major tension spot in Europe today is in an area that borders moslem states (hint, check the OP).  The Turks are probably the most civilized of the bunch so no problems there...except for the terrorist attacks in 2003 of two synagogues, a bank, and the British embassy. The borders bleed in Africa - Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia/Ethiopia.  In Asia the Indian face off against Pakistan over the Kashmir.  Also in Asia, the Philippines and Indonesia are blighted by Islamic terror.  The list could go on. 

As for how many Western borders go without bloodshed...when was the last time the US fought Mexico?  How about Canada?

Look, you will never convince me of the equivalencies between Christians and Moslems.  Islamic terrorism is there and on a large scale.  Christians are being persecuted as we speak.
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« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2012, 03:00:00 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

Actually the Byzantine emperors was quite tolerant towards other faiths, ask any Jew.    Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2012, 03:14:31 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

Actually the Byzantine emperors was quite tolerant towards other faiths, ask any Jew.    Smiley

Go ask Salpy and you can have fifty pages on their "tolerance" of the OO.
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« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »

As both an OO and someone who just tries to live a principled life, I do not appreciate the OO/EO divide being invoked here to provide rationalization of Islamic atrocities.

Quote
Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover)

^ This is the real problem, I believe, in discussing these matters. There are some people on this website who believe that religion can never have a real role in conflicts, and so those of us who argue that it does are unfairly projecting onto Islam our biases and flawed theories. The problem, of course, is that it is Islam which places its religious dogma at the forefront of its persecutions of the rest of the world, not those who recognize it as doing so. When Qur'an 9:29 says that the unbelievers are to be fought even among the so-called "People of the Book" (us and the Jews), it is on account of what they believe, or rather, what they don't believe (i.e., Islam). That's the reality of the situation. Of course, power does come in, in the sense that Muslims are to rule over non-Muslims (because only one religion is acceptable to God, and to the unbelievers is a fiery doom, and blahblahblahblah), but that is certainly not to the exclusion of religious claims...as you can tell if you do not have this preexisting prejudice that all conflicts involving Muslims must really be about something else, they are a package deal in Islam: Love Muhammad's religion, lust after that which Muhammad lusted after.
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« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2012, 09:00:07 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?

Egypt and Northern Cyprus are not exactly happy places for Christians, and there are three generations in my family still living who remember the pain and loss they experienced there.

Is it my own experience? No, though I have experienced the effects of it, which were not particularly fun themselves.

My own feelings towards Islam rise no higher than disquiet, but I simply cannot stand people who have experienced nothing of Islamic domination telling those who have that they are simply paranoid bigots and that, in any case, Christianity/Christians is/are just as bad anyway.

I think the suspicions and heightened emotions of those who have suffered are understandable and even perhaps justified. I have already said, though, that they might require correction. I only say that such correction should be done in the right way: not dismissively and without sensitivity.

In another context, it would be me making defence of Islam and Muslims.

Ok so replace Muslim with Russian and a few of the locations and you have the same narrative. 

So who wants to talk about restricting Russian immigration to the West and the suspect nature of the Orthodox Church?   
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« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2012, 01:50:41 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.
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« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2012, 02:20:15 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy
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« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2012, 09:23:19 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.
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« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2012, 03:19:10 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.
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« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2012, 03:25:46 PM »


Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.
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« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »


Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.

Yes; God took vengeance on the children of other people, because the Egyptian government killed the Israelites' male children; and God ordered the death of all the men, women, and children because the men attacked the Israelites.  Seems fairly close to an eye for an eye.
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« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2012, 03:35:58 PM »


Yes; God took vengeance on the children of other people, because the Egyptian government killed the Israelites' male children; and God ordered the death of all the men, women, and children because the men attacked the Israelites.  Seems fairly close to an eye for an eye.

God vs Pharaoh
Israel vs Pharaoh's people
God's firstborn vs Pharaoh and his people's firstborn

It seems fair.
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