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Author Topic: Serbian priest shot by armed robbers in Bosnia  (Read 3466 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 03, 2012, 12:54:47 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2012, 04:47:39 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 05:15:42 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 05:51:44 PM »

The thieves were probably Muslims. 

I agree as I have family near Zvornik in Bosnia and there is a big tension between tense between Serbs and Muslims. E.g. when I was visiting my family we couldn't go into a Muslims district to not be attacked. It's difficult to build a new church (however, I was at consecration of a new monastery in Kozluk, very nice, patriotic ceremony during which was a call to prayer from nearby mosque), while for a mosque it's not problem.

I'm very sorry for this priest and his wife, I hope it's not beginning of more attacks against Christians in this country
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 06:50:24 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.

 Actually, s/he does.  I was a practicing Muslim for almost ten years and there were plenty of talks that had to do with making the "infidel" pay for "past" aggressions (and these "aggressions" are everything from simply being Christian to supporting Israel to Western policies in the Middle East).  Obviously this didn't apply to every. single. Muslim... but out of the 60 that attended Friday prayers back in the '90's, I'd say 2/3 harbored some type of hatred towards Christians.  The majority of Muslims in Bosnia are nothing but trouble.  I met plenty in Chicago, San Diego and Oklahoma City who didn't like Serbs.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 06:50:59 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2012, 08:53:54 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.

To be Bosnian is to be Muslim.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2012, 09:16:33 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.

To be Bosnian is to be Muslim.

I'm half Bosnian & definitely not Muslim! angel laugh
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 09:21:59 PM »

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2012, 09:25:17 PM »

Lord have mercy.

May God grant them recovery spiritually & physically
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2012, 10:17:22 PM »

To be Bosniak is to be Muslim.

Fixed.

My Bosniak friend Tanja, who left Sarajevo during the war, returned for the first time about 7 years or so ago and was dismayed to find that most of her previously "Muslim by nationality" family had become (shock! horror!) Evangelical Christians and spent most of her visit pestering her for money since she is a rich American now. Grin I guess Bosnia isn't doing too hot these days, hence crimes like this one. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 11:57:46 PM »

The thieves were probably Muslims.  

I agree as I have family near Zvornik in Bosnia and there is a big tension between tense between Serbs and Muslims. E.g. when I was visiting my family we couldn't go into a Muslims district to not be attacked. It's difficult to build a new church (however, I was at consecration of a new monastery in Kozluk, very nice, patriotic ceremony during which was a call to prayer from nearby mosque), while for a mosque it's not problem.

I'm very sorry for this priest and his wife, I hope it's not beginning of more attacks against Christians in this country


Very sad, yet NATO and Clinton bombed the Serbs in order to establish a Muslim state in Europe. MAny American so called Orthodox members of this very site supported this action and do till this day.

WIthout western intervention the Bosnian Muslim problem would have been solved and a fair re-drawing of anti-Serb communist era boundaries would have been possible.

ANyway from what i hear the govt of Republika Srpska is ignoring the "central" govt and is in effect running its part of Bosnia as a de-facto independent state. Hence the recent re-classification of Brcko by that scumbag High Commissioner - to make things harder for the Serbs.

Sooner or later Republika Srpska will have a referendum and declare independence. I don't know why Serbia and Republika Srspka never signed a formal treaty of defence with Russia and invited Russian troops in.

Fill the country up with Russian bases and tell NATO to get stuffed.

 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 12:02:08 AM by Byron » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2012, 12:53:03 AM »

Lord have mercy.

May God grant them recovery spiritually & physically

Amen, Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2012, 02:20:26 AM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2012, 02:53:46 AM »

So the article says, "It was not immediately clear what motivated the robbers."  Yet everyone here is already convinced that a Bosnian Caliphate is behind this.   It must have turned from gay to Muslim season around these parts. 
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2012, 03:00:18 AM »

So the article says, "It was not immediately clear what motivated the robbers."  Yet everyone here is already convinced that a Bosnian Caliphate is behind this.   It must have turned from gay to Muslim season around these parts.  

One member was betting it would be RC season next.

Guess he was wrong.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2012, 03:01:06 AM »

I was a practicing Muslim for almost ten years

If you ever wish to elaborate on this. I am all eyes.
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2012, 03:15:28 AM »

I'd like to hear about it, too, Gabriel.
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 03:46:49 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 03:59:40 AM »

Eh...realistically, though, even though Muslims are the largest single religious group in the country (45%), the town where this happened is 90% Serb, so it's less likely that it is a Muslim. Though of course it can't be ruled out. (Sources: Demographics of Derventa and demographics of wider Bosnia)
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 04:02:42 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

The hadiths and Quran sort of remind of you the Old Testament God in the middle of one of His frequent temper tantrums, don't they? 
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 04:05:27 AM »

Wow. Wonderful job there of either being a Marcionite or bending over backwards to insult your own God and faith in order to support Islam. Muhammad would be proud of you, Nektarios.
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 04:42:04 AM »

So the article says, "It was not immediately clear what motivated the robbers."  Yet everyone here is already convinced that a Bosnian Caliphate is behind this.   It must have turned from gay to Muslim season around these parts. 
you'd think ppl would've waited to start the new season until after i made my obliquatory snide post about the Diamond Jubillee.
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 04:44:01 AM »

Eh...realistically, though, even though Muslims are the largest single religious group in the country (45%), the town where this happened is 90% Serb, so it's less likely that it is a Muslim. Though of course it can't be ruled out. (Sources: Demographics of Derventa and demographics of wider Bosnia)

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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 12:00:50 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

What about the historical context of Islam makes it one iota less frightening? 
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 12:18:33 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

What about the historical context of Islam makes it one iota less frightening? 

I was referring specifically to the context of those verses that some people think mean Muslims can do whatever they please to non-Muslims.  But really, the history of Islam is no more frightening than the history of Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 12:39:52 PM »

So the article says, "It was not immediately clear what motivated the robbers."  Yet everyone here is already convinced that a Bosnian Caliphate is behind this.   It must have turned from gay to Muslim season around these parts. 

 Next it'll be semi ex-pats.  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 12:42:20 PM »

I was a practicing Muslim for almost ten years

If you ever wish to elaborate on this. I am all eyes.


 The story is on one of our threads here- either a 'Conversion' thread or a 'Past religious experience' thread.  I'll try to find  it.  If I can't, I'll share it again.
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« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 01:07:31 PM »

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith. 

You may just be further ahead than many Americans.  But I have lived Islam for nearly a decade of my life.  I was previously married to a Muslima (Muslim woman), I helped found an international Da'wa (missionary) foundation.  I had a good grasp of Arabic and recited all the prayers in Arabic.  I was elected the president of the local chapter of the Muslim Students Association.  We held major conferences with guest speakers at two of the universities here.  I was regularly invited to speak on radio and at the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary.  My housemates at the time (Pakistani, Turkish) turned our apartment living room into the local Mosque when there was none in town.  I befriended Muslims from Saudi Arabia, Oman, Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, Albania, Bosnia, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Syria, etc... I have flown to 5 major US cities in a plane owned by an Egyptian doctor to visit different masajid (mosques) in order to gather donations for a mosque.  I wrote to the Saudi Gov't in order to secure 50 Qur'ans for the local Muslim population. 

James, I lived and breathed Islam.  But, I'll grant that though this doesn't make me an expert by any means, you will never ever be able to tell me that Islam is not a violent religion.  Now before you start in, I didn't say ALL Muslims are prone to violence.  I've prayed next to grandfatherly old Turkish men who were kind, patient and who abhorred violence.  But James, ISLAM is a violent religion.  I studied the context of verses of the Qur'an (known as asbab al-nazul).  I had volumes on the Hadith of Muhammad.  I had a huge collection of Shi'a Hadith known as the Nahj al-Balagha (the sermons of 'Ali).

Again, James, all Muslims aren't violent.  But there is a reason why Islam has always had bloody borders.  I hope you'll reconsider your views.
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 01:20:27 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

The thieves were probably Bosnian police!
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 01:56:10 PM »


The hadiths and Quran sort of remind of you the Old Testament God in the middle of one of His frequent temper tantrums, don't they? 

It by no means reminds me of the Old Testament since Moses was never identified in the Torah as "a mercy sent to all nations" unlike Muhammad in the Qur'an and since Judaism was never claimed to be "a religion of peace" in the Torah unlike Islam in the Qur'an. There was no change in Moses' approach to pagans whereas Muhammad constantly changed his approach to pagans and the People of the Book. It seems that these contrasts have escaped your sight. You should study Islam once more.
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 02:14:08 PM »


The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known,

Not true. It's more difficult to grasp the context of the Qur'an verses since the Qur'an does not follow a clear sense of chronology and is full of grammatical anomalies that make the text harder to understand.

and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan. 

Here you erroneously ascribe a sort of biblical ignorance to all Christians. For instance, I personally know why such a commandment was given and I also know that I am not the only person to know this.

Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites. 

I only laugh at this blasphemous comment of yours. Besides, this comment of yours exhibits the fallacy of RED HERRING as it is not relevant to the topic. You must be happy though since you found an occasion to attack the God of the Jews. (I actually do not know if you consider Christ's Father a separate deity from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Maybe you hate Demiurge and material?)

You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever. 

You do not know that Muhammad copied the Jewish story about Pharaoh's punishment from the Torah and Talmud, right?

Before you attack the Muslims

STRAW MAN. We do not attack Muslims, we attack ISLAM.

as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

The Torah nowhere claims that the Mosaic Law or the other violent acts were for all people and all times. However, the Qur'an claims to be the final word-by-word revelation of God given to Muhammad for all people and times.
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 03:28:09 PM »

Is everyone here a Marcionite? What the hell is going on? The Old Testament is the WORD OF GOD not any less than the New Testament, though of course our relationship to it is radically different than that of the Jews (or the Muslims, since Muhammad plagiarized and distorted it to support his false "prophethood", as his followers continue to do to this day for the same reason), since we are Christians. I cannot believe the lengths to which some people will go to defend the blasphemies of a Christ-denying illiterate pagan and his followers and the stupid, unnecessary, destructive, and fake pseudo-religion and political project they founded. Sick. This is sick.   Angry
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

Is everyone here a Marcionite? What the hell is going on? The Old Testament is the WORD OF GOD not any less than the New Testament, though of course our relationship to it is radically different than that of the Jews (or the Muslims, since Muhammad plagiarized and distorted it to support his false "prophethood", as his followers continue to do to this day for the same reason), since we are Christians. I cannot believe the lengths to which some people will go to defend the blasphemies of a Christ-denying illiterate pagan and his followers and the stupid, unnecessary, destructive, and fake pseudo-religion and political project they founded. Sick. This is sick.   Angry

You sound extremely angry.
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 03:31:50 PM »

I am extremely angry! Blasphemy against God the Father is kinda one of my "buttons"...go figure...
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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 04:13:24 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.

Yes I do, but I can't give you exactly the verses in the Quran and Hadith.  I'm sorry but  I can't hold on to every writing I come across.  By the way, it's also not a sin for a Muslim to break one's word to a Christian...something the Venetians found out the hard way.    Two days ago in Athens two Greek boys tried to stop someone from robbing their car and they were both shot.  I can assure you, it was not a Greek that shot them, no more than it was a Greek that shot the nun in the monastery when an icon was stolen.  It was a Muslim from Fyrom.

There is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly living in the section where the illegal Pakis, Afghans, etc. habitate, that way they'll be able to go out and collect their SS checks.  This doesn't mean that all the 500,000 illegal Muslims in Greece are criminals, only that they are desperate and will rob.  The shootings though are deliberately meant to cause anarchy.   Smiley
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 04:15:59 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 04:20:47 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 04:39:38 PM »

The thieves were probably Muslims.  

I agree as I have family near Zvornik in Bosnia and there is a big tension between tense between Serbs and Muslims. E.g. when I was visiting my family we couldn't go into a Muslims district to not be attacked. It's difficult to build a new church (however, I was at consecration of a new monastery in Kozluk, very nice, patriotic ceremony during which was a call to prayer from nearby mosque), while for a mosque it's not problem.

I'm very sorry for this priest and his wife, I hope it's not beginning of more attacks against Christians in this country


Very sad, yet NATO and Clinton bombed the Serbs in order to establish a Muslim state in Europe. MAny American so called Orthodox members of this very site supported this action and do till this day.

WIthout western intervention the Bosnian Muslim problem would have been solved and a fair re-drawing of anti-Serb communist era boundaries would have been possible.

ANyway from what i hear the govt of Republika Srpska is ignoring the "central" govt and is in effect running its part of Bosnia as a de-facto independent state. Hence the recent re-classification of Brcko by that scumbag High Commissioner - to make things harder for the Serbs.

Sooner or later Republika Srpska will have a referendum and declare independence. I don't know why Serbia and Republika Srspka never signed a formal treaty of defence with Russia and invited Russian troops in.

Fill the country up with Russian bases and tell NATO to get stuffed.

 

Russia objected with Kosovo, and the West paid them no heed and thereby started another Cold War...if not WWIII.   This time Russia is being firm with what's going on in Syria.  It's also building up its forces.   The majority of Arab Syrians are Sunni and if we were to intervene on their behalf, and the Sunnis were to get the upper hand, the massacres against the Christians will start.  It's traditional that's why they keep their mouth shut in that part of the world. 

 The city of Homs has been cleared of tens of thousands of Christians, by the rebels of course. Hmmm!  Funny how so little is mentioned in the newspapers.  I wonder why? Huh
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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 04:48:36 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Yes it is.  Greece though is building detention centers for the illegals, that way they can be fed until a way is found to send that back from whence they came.  Turkey sent over thirty five thousand illegals in the last three months of last year.  A wall is being built along the border with Turkey and the EU has helicopters guarding the islands.  Angry
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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Yes it is.  Greece though is building detention centers for the illegals, that way they can be fed until a way is found to send that back from whence they came.  Turkey sent over thirty five thousand illegals in the last three months of last year.  A wall is being built along the border with Turkey and the EU has helicopters guarding the islands.  Angry
Hmm, I must say that I doubt that anything good will come out of that, but I guess time will show.
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« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2012, 10:41:19 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related



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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2012, 10:48:26 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

Ah yes, the neopagan fascists know best.
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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2012, 11:15:37 PM »

Is everyone here a Marcionite? What the hell is going on? The Old Testament is the WORD OF GOD not any less than the New Testament, though of course our relationship to it is radically different than that of the Jews (or the Muslims, since Muhammad plagiarized and distorted it to support his false "prophethood", as his followers continue to do to this day for the same reason), since we are Christians. I cannot believe the lengths to which some people will go to defend the blasphemies of a Christ-denying illiterate pagan and his followers and the stupid, unnecessary, destructive, and fake pseudo-religion and political project they founded. Sick. This is sick.   Angry

God is Creation and therefore Pure Love.  Any form of destruction is a negation of God's Creation and Love, so how can God destroy?  It's man that  destroys through his sins because everything man is and does affects everyone and everything... even the weather. 

We know  that the Holy Spirit cannot guide people to kill others, since He is a Spirit of Comfort and Love.  He gives people peace.   This full revelation of God as we know Him, was not known before the Incarnation.  At that time God could only be understood in a certain way, and that made Him appear in the OT as merciless and cruel.  Mohamed in contrast added nothing new to our vision of God.  Instead he lessened the God of the Jews  to that of a pagan 'demon' diety. 

Anyway here's excerpts from an interesting article that includes a video of an apostate being beheaded in Egypt.  His crime:  Converting to Christianity:

"There is unanimity that the male apostate must be put to death."

Liberal talk show host Tawfiq Okasha recently appeared on "Egypt Today," airing a video of Muslims slicing off a young man's head off for the crime of apostasy -- in this instance, the crime of converting to Christianity and refusing to renounce it. The video—be warned, it is immensely graphic—can be seen here (the actual execution appears from minute 1:13-4:00). For those who prefer not to view it, a summary follows:
 
A young man appears held down by masked men. His head is pulled back, with a knife to his throat. He does not struggle and appears resigned to his fate. Speaking in Arabic, the background speaker, or "narrator," chants a number of Muslim prayers and supplications, mostly condemning Christianity, which, because of the Trinity, is referred to as a polytheistic faith: "Let Allah be avenged on the polytheist apostate"; "Allah empower your religion, make it victorious against the polytheists"; "Allah, defeat the infidels at the hands of the Muslims," and "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger."

Any number of Islamic legal manuals make explicitly clear that apostasy is a capital crime, punishable by death. The first "righteous caliph," a model of Muslim piety, had tens of thousands of former Muslims slaughtered—including by burning, beheading, and crucifixion—simply because they tried to break away from Islam. According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the most authoritative reference work on Islam in the English language, "there is unanimity that the male apostate must be put to death."

Finally, a word on the "prayers" or supplications to Allah made by the Muslim executioners in the video: these are standard and formulaic. In other words, these are not just masked, anonymous butchers who pray to Allah as they engage in acts of cutting throats and holding up heads, these are top-ranking Muslim leaders, who appear regularly on TV, who invoke such hate-filled prayers.


 http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3092/tunisia-muslims-slaughter-apostate   
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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2012, 11:27:47 PM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

Ah yes, the neopagan fascists know best.

Many people, esp in central Athens believe so. At the very least they are the only ones that are willing to do and have done something about the problem of illegal immigration and the Islamic influx.

And i wouldn't exactly call them neopagan. Yes they aspire to the best aspects of ancient Hellenic civilisation but i have not seen their leadership or followers call for a return to neopaganism.

All you do is discredit yourself by making up lies to suit your anti-white European agenda.
 
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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2012, 01:25:26 AM »

Maybe we should stop now, since this is getting quite off topic.
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2012, 02:36:06 AM »

Is this about a Serbian priest or who's gonna save poor old Greece? 
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 03:35:48 AM »

Zenovia, I appreciate your perspective, but I couldn't get through the first bit without having some questions and issues.

God is Creation and therefore Pure Love.
Why does Creation = Pure Love?

Quote
 Any form of destruction is a negation of God's Creation and Love, so how can God destroy?

He can destroy if He wishes, can't He? What if destruction is a negation of things God did not create, e.g. sin, evil?
 
Quote
We know  that the Holy Spirit cannot guide people to kill others, since He is a Spirit of Comfort and Love.  He gives people peace.   This full revelation of God as we know Him, was not known before the Incarnation.  At that time God could only be understood in a certain way, and that made Him appear in the OT as merciless and cruel.

Did God order the slaughter of the Canaanites or not? 
   
If He didn't, then our scripture is unreliable and unhelpful.  If He did, then it's difficult to deny that there is God sanctioned violence in Christian Scripture.
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 12:57:00 PM »

Zenovia, I appreciate your perspective, but I couldn't get through the first bit without having some questions and issues.

God is Creation and therefore Pure Love.
Why does Creation = Pure Love?

Quote
 Any form of destruction is a negation of God's Creation and Love, so how can God destroy?

He can destroy if He wishes, can't He? What if destruction is a negation of things God did not create, e.g. sin, evil?

But sin in itself is a negation of the full potential  given to man by God so how can it be created by God?  I think a better word for 'sin' would be a personality 'limitation' since that's what it is really. 
Quote
 
Quote
We know  that the Holy Spirit cannot guide people to kill others, since He is a Spirit of Comfort and Love.  He gives people peace.   This full revelation of God as we know Him, was not known before the Incarnation.  At that time God could only be understood in a certain way, and that made Him appear in the OT as merciless and cruel.

Did God order the slaughter of the Canaanites or not?
   
If He didn't, then our scripture is unreliable and unhelpful.  If He did, then it's difficult to deny that there is God sanctioned violence in Christian Scripture.

[/quote]

I think  the reason God appears differently in the OT has to do in the way things were interpreted in the pre Christian Semitic world.  In Christianity we would  say that God allowed  something to occur, while in the OT they would interpret it as  God having ordered it.  But how can God order destruction, wouldn't it be against His Nature? Huh

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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2012, 01:18:36 PM »

Eh...realistically, though, even though Muslims are the largest single religious group in the country (45%), the town where this happened is 90% Serb, so it's less likely that it is a Muslim. Though of course it can't be ruled out. (Sources: Demographics of Derventa and demographics of wider Bosnia)

And yet even if an Orthodox Christian is not devout, they are superstitious. so they don't  readily kill  priests.  On the other hand in Islamic countries,  priests are  killed continuously by fanatics in order to ethnically cleanse an area of Christians.  I should think in Bosnia  they would be even more determined to do so.    Cry
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2012, 01:50:03 PM »

Couldn't it also have been two robbers who happened to be violent? I mean, it have happened before.
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2012, 02:53:37 PM »

Couldn't it also have been two robbers who happened to be violent? I mean, it have happened before.

Priests do not have much money, so it is rare for them to be robbed unless there's a political motive behind it.  Of course everything is possible.  If we were to use  Egypt and the other Islamic nations as an example, then I doubt they'll find the criminals and even if they did, they'd probably get a very light  sentence... if any sentence at all.   Huh
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2012, 04:47:37 PM »

Gabriel, as usual, your input on this subject is appreciated.
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« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2012, 02:28:39 AM »

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

 
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« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2012, 02:40:46 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.
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« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2012, 02:43:15 AM »

Gabriel, as usual, your input on this subject is appreciated.

+1

I am also grateful for Theophilos's views on the subject matter.
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« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia, it just follows the bottom line of profit margin, and in any given society, immigrants will naturally work for less money than locals, because they have migrated for work in the first place.  If Greeks didn't want Muslims, then they wouldn't be hiring them in the first place!  It is the same with the undocumented immigrant debate here in the US, folks want to have their cake and eat it to.  Folks who oppose amnesty measures also tend to support deregulation of business, and it is these businesses which hire and attract undocumented workers, sometimes quite literally through international recruiting.  So if Greeks didn't want Muslims in their country, they sure could have fooled the rest of the world considering Muslims come in to work, and Greeks keep hiring them.  Further, I must admit my bias, I detest the term "illegal" because I find it dehumanizing, I'd prefer to use the more literal term of "undocumented" because the are humans, they just lack paperwork.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.
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« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »

Quote from: HabteSelassie
Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

Are you serious?
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« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2012, 02:00:26 PM »

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.
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« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2012, 02:04:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
ere is now a Nazi party in Greece that escorts the elderly...
That shouldn't by any chance be Golden Dawn?

Not to sidetrack, but G.D. is the only party that has the best interests of the Greek nation at its heart.

As for the borders with Turkey they should have built that 20km fence, years ago. Why didn't the socialist govt do so? Because they benefit from the Muslim third worlders that settle in Greece.

What Greece really needs now is a new Metaxas (the greatest leader modern Greece has ever had), a man who loved his country, his people and his heritage instead of selling it out like the current lot of mainstream party traitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3YQ0rt_gg&feature=related


How can Greece benefit from the illegals?  It did need the Albanians, but they were Greeks and  from areas that were formerly Greek  so they were allowed in the country.  Greece never wanted Muslims because of the political situation in the Balkans.   Also they weren't coming in from the border in Thrace, they were entering through the Aegean islands and it was impossible to guard them all.  The EU now has helicopters patrolling the area.  Once Greece tried to send them back, but they ended up floating in the water. 

Anyway I read today an interview in Der Spiegal of an illegal in Greece from Bangladesh.  He said he paid the 'trafikkers' two thousand to get into Europe.  During the trip they told him they needed ten thousand or he would be killed to sell his organs.  His sister sold everything she owned to pay them.  After literally going  through hell he finally arrived in Istanbul with the other men that managed to survive.  He was  then told that there were no jobs in Greece and was given a few euros and told  to cross the river on the left so he wouldn't end up in Bulgaria because then he'll be in trouble. 

The article said that it is estimated one hundred thousand Muslims enter a year through Greece.  Turkey is definitely complicite in this. Angry

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia, it just follows the bottom line of profit margin, and in any given society, immigrants will naturally work for less money than locals, because they have migrated for work in the first place.  If Greeks didn't want Muslims, then they wouldn't be hiring them in the first place!  It is the same with the undocumented immigrant debate here in the US, folks want to have their cake and eat it to.  Folks who oppose amnesty measures also tend to support deregulation of business, and it is these businesses which hire and attract undocumented workers, sometimes quite literally through international recruiting.  So if Greeks didn't want Muslims in their country, they sure could have fooled the rest of the world considering Muslims come in to work, and Greeks keep hiring them.  Further, I must admit my bias, I detest the term "illegal" because I find it dehumanizing, I'd prefer to use the more literal term of "undocumented" because the are humans, they just lack paperwork.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The situation in Europe, and especially in the entry points of the Mediterranean is way different than the U.S.   The Pakistanis, Afghans, Bangladesh have no work in Greece.  If they are given any, it's out of kindness so they won't starve.  Most of them  can be seen begging for money as they wipe windshields.  They had originally hoped to get to Britain but according to the EU law, even if they did manage to get out of Greece, they would be sent  back if caught. 

The Albanians were needed for construction work, and they are hard workers, but with the situation, many returned to Albania.  They, as well as the other Eastern Europeans have assimilated beautifully, and they have always been welcome providing they are not Muslims.  Today there are one million Muslims in a population of eleven million.  The Greek people have lived under Islam for over three hundred years and fought hard for their freedom, they do not want to end up in dhimmitude again.  Do not believe for one moment that this influx of illegals has nothing to do with the religious political agenda of Islam. 

If you want to find out how Islam managed to wipe out all the Christians in the Near and Middle East, I suggest you read Horton's book:  The  Blight of Asia.  It's on the internet.  The book is very informative because the same methods that were used one hundred and two hundred years ago, I find are being used today as well:

http://www.pahh.com/horton/

Anyway do not compare the situation in Europe with the U.S., and just thank God that the Mexicans are Christians.   angel
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« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2012, 02:25:20 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.
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« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2012, 02:37:14 PM »

Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural cheuvanism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.

You know when the Russians kicked out the Muslim Circassians in the late 1800's, the Istanbul slave markets were packed with  Circassian women who were known for their beauty.  They became so cheap that the men began kicking out their black slaves....and yet there are no mulattos in Turkey.    I read that the babies born of black mothers in the harems were automatically killed.   Angry
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« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Immigrants are immigrants, migrant labor is migrant labor.  Economics doesn't know cultural chauvinism or xenophobia

This is cute and all, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case outside of the West, such as for the millions of women working as domestics in Saudi Arabia who are largely non-Muslim or at least non-Arab Muslim and treated like slaves by their Saudi masters. Ditto the position of non-Muslim and non-Arab Muslims as migrant workers throughout much of the gulf (e.g., UAE and elsewhere), who are counted upon to build the economy but not given any sort of rights in any meaningful sense. To quote a former Arabic professor of mine who had lived in the Gulf for years, in response to a question about the treatment of non-Arabs from a Bangladeshi student in one of his classes: "They don't like your people over there. Arabs come first." If this were just a simple cultural ignorance that had no repercussions in the real world, that'd be one thing, but of course when migrant workers make up over 50% of the a country's total work force, as in Saudi Arabia...well, it's a big issue. And they can't all be Indonesians and Filipino Muslims from Mindanao, regardless of what they say in an attempt to make their lives more bearable. And actually, come to think of it, the Indonesians don't really have it all that much better than the mostly Catholic Filipinos, so...at least Saudi Arabs practice equal opportunity discrimination, right?

But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against. It really helps inflate their sense of arch-victimhood, which, after all, should be our priority.

Dude, it isn't an either/or, us-them issue.  Immigrants are immigrants.  Exploitation is exploitation.  But I think you missed my point so let me reiterate:

Quote
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Muslims behead Christian convert in Tunisia

 Undecided The big media names are not covering this of course. And this is our (the west's) fault because we helped them. And we helped it happen in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and we're helping it along in Syria.

Isn't this the main reason why the Russian Orthodox Church is so opposed to western intervention in Syria? They see how Christians have been treated in the western liberated and "democratic" Iraq?

Good point. I had been overemphasizing the lucrative arms running contracts in my analysis, but that is a good point indeed.  While nobody wants to see what is happening in Syria, and nobody wants another collective Rwanda, nonetheless Iraq very much demonstrates why Western intervention is never really the best strategy. We in the West should PRAY above all else..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Honestly, nothing is going to be done if Christians in these areas (or any other persecuted minority) are not able to effectively defend themselves.  Indigenous forces defending their homes supported and led by professional troops are the best bet.  Support from a major power is also often necessary.  As it is, the Christians in Syria are probably done for. 

Nonsense, with God nothing is impossible.  However, if we continue to turn to our own human efforts at this process, we will inherently fail.  Our Christian brothers and sisters need to focus on prayer, not war. 

As to the persecution of Christian laborers in Arab countries, which of course affects thousands of Ethiopians too, you are conflating two separate issues.  I was responding to a xenophobic post which was insinuating some kind of Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe, when actuality it is economics plain and simple.  Folks from less developed countries tend to migrate legally or illegally to countries where there is work. If folks in those countries don't want immigrant populations, especially undocumented, then these employers should be held accountable.  As to the rights of laborers and the labor movement, I couldn't agree more with you, exploitation of any source of labor is a moral issue which I strongly disagree with at every level.


The situation in Europe, and especially in the entry points of the Mediterranean is way different than the U.S.   The Pakistanis, Afghans, Bangladesh have no work in Greece.  If they are given any, it's out of kindness so they won't starve.  Most of them  can be seen begging for money as they wipe windshields.  They had originally hoped to get to Britain but according to the EU law, even if they did manage to get out of Greece, they would be sent  back if caught. 

The Albanians were needed for construction work, and they are hard workers, but with the situation, many returned to Albania.  They, as well as the other Eastern Europeans have assimilated beautifully, and they have always been welcome providing they are not Muslims.  Today there are one million Muslims in a population of eleven million.  The Greek people have lived under Islam for over three hundred years and fought hard for their freedom, they do not want to end up in dhimmitude again.  Do not believe for one moment that this influx of illegals has nothing to do with the religious political agenda of Islam. 

That is true, the EU politics shape what happens in Greece in different ways.  However, I think my point stands, that it is largely economic and not sociocultural factors which drive immigration, especially undocumented.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.

You're right. I overstepped the bounds of his original argument here, based on my history of disagreement with him on related subjects. That's not right. Habte (and everybody), I am sorry.

I stand by the rest of my post, though. I don't see how it could be that economic factors somehow shut out discrimination, though perhaps I've misread him on this point, too.
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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2012, 03:56:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
But by all means, continue to think of Muslim migrants to Europe as the ones who are so exploited and discriminated against

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that immigrants naturally will work for less money, which, in many cases, is true.

You're right. I overstepped the bounds of his original argument here, based on my history of disagreement with him on related subjects. That's not right. Habte (and everybody), I am sorry.


Thank you, likewise I apologize if I have been to insensitive or assertive in my discussions, these are sensitive issues to say the least Smiley

I respect all of y'all and the diversity of viewpoints, but it is always important that we mutually respect each other, something I am just as guilty of violating as anyone.

Lord have His Mercy on me, a sinner.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 03:56:34 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2012, 05:08:33 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.
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« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2012, 05:12:15 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?
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« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2012, 05:25:48 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?

Egypt and Northern Cyprus are not exactly happy places for Christians, and there are three generations in my family still living who remember the pain and loss they experienced there.

Is it my own experience? No, though I have experienced the effects of it, which were not particularly fun themselves.

My own feelings towards Islam rise no higher than disquiet, but I simply cannot stand people who have experienced nothing of Islamic domination telling those who have that they are simply paranoid bigots and that, in any case, Christianity/Christians is/are just as bad anyway.

I think the suspicions and heightened emotions of those who have suffered are understandable and even perhaps justified. I have already said, though, that they might require correction. I only say that such correction should be done in the right way: not dismissively and without sensitivity.

In another context, it would be me making defence of Islam and Muslims.
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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2012, 05:29:45 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.
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« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2012, 05:32:43 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...
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« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2012, 05:34:46 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...

I think an honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will show a far greater equivalence than most Christians are willing to deal with.
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« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2012, 05:45:41 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

I know that, though I don't see that it makes much of a difference.

I think any honest, side-by-side assessment of the whole of Islamic and Christian history will make it clear that your equivalences are false.

I can understand your motivation in correcting the extremes of some Christians (probably me included), but really ...

Don't worry, Aki.  Some of us have read their history books.

If you have six kids and five of them have each been in a fight one time and the sixth has been in a fight five times...oh, and has the other five kids' lunch money...I tend to make an inference here and there about kiddo #6's culpability.

As Gabriel pointed out (and Huntington before him) - Islam has bloody borders.  Perhaps the Christians (Eastern and Western), Indians, Africans, and Chinese all got together one day and decided to beat up Islam...but somehow I doubt it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 05:46:44 PM by vamrat » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.
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« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2012, 06:33:52 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.
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« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.
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« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 
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« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2012, 09:44:23 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?
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« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2012, 10:03:12 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?

Well, though some of these aren't wars, there were the Years of Lead in Italy just a couple decades ago, there were the troubles in Ireland, there was the Basque conflict, while not exactly Western Europe, there was the Greek Civil War in the '40's, there was the Spanish Civil War, there was the Irish Civil War, the Irish War of Independence, though - again - not exactly Western Europe, there was a war between Hungary and Romania around 1920, the world wars of course, the Austro-Prussian War, the various wars of Italian independence, the Hungarian revolution, and probably many things I've either forgotten or didn't know about.

Then if we include the United States, there was the invasion of Panama, Grenada, the Vietnam War (no Muslims involved to the best of my knowledge), the US invasion of the Dominican Republic, the Korean War of course, the Spanish-American War, and countless other conflicts.

Then there have also been many other wars not involving any Muslims at all, such as the First Indochina War, the civil war in Paraguay, the civil war in Costa Rica, the Laotian civil war, a civil war in Guatemala.

Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover), we could mention the Holocaust, the mass murder committed by Stalin, the Cultural Revolution sponsored by Mao, the terrible, terrible things that the Japanese did to prisoners of war, the horrible persecutions of the British against the Irish, and against Catholics, etc., etc.
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« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2012, 10:50:05 PM »

Bloody borders? What nation doesn't?

You guys are all out to lunch.

There must have been a lot more Muslims in Western Europe than I thought.

Really?  Western Europe?  How many wars have been fought in Western Europe in the last year?  I can name a couple in the Middle East.  I would wager that a majority of the wars/insurgencies going on right now have muslims involved on at least one side.

Who said anything about the last year? 

Well, how far in history do you want to go?

Well, though some of these aren't wars, there were the Years of Lead in Italy just a couple decades ago, there were the troubles in Ireland, there was the Basque conflict, while not exactly Western Europe, there was the Greek Civil War in the '40's, there was the Spanish Civil War, there was the Irish Civil War, the Irish War of Independence, though - again - not exactly Western Europe, there was a war between Hungary and Romania around 1920, the world wars of course, the Austro-Prussian War, the various wars of Italian independence, the Hungarian revolution, and probably many things I've either forgotten or didn't know about.

Then if we include the United States, there was the invasion of Panama, Grenada, the Vietnam War (no Muslims involved to the best of my knowledge), the US invasion of the Dominican Republic, the Korean War of course, the Spanish-American War, and countless other conflicts.

Then there have also been many other wars not involving any Muslims at all, such as the First Indochina War, the civil war in Paraguay, the civil war in Costa Rica, the Laotian civil war, a civil war in Guatemala.

Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover), we could mention the Holocaust, the mass murder committed by Stalin, the Cultural Revolution sponsored by Mao, the terrible, terrible things that the Japanese did to prisoners of war, the horrible persecutions of the British against the Irish, and against Catholics, etc., etc.


In just about every case you mentioned, there has been a movement towards peace.  How many Northern Sudanese are protesting against their governments persecution of Christians in the south?  How many Saudis?  How many Iranians? 

As for bloody borders, almost everywhere where moslems become a majority there is strife.  Just about every frontier they share with another ethnicity there is strife.

How many European border struggles are there these days?  Ireland has mostly settled down and when some RIRA guy blows up a shop he is condemned by the British AND Sinn Fein.  The only major tension spot in Europe today is in an area that borders moslem states (hint, check the OP).  The Turks are probably the most civilized of the bunch so no problems there...except for the terrorist attacks in 2003 of two synagogues, a bank, and the British embassy. The borders bleed in Africa - Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia/Ethiopia.  In Asia the Indian face off against Pakistan over the Kashmir.  Also in Asia, the Philippines and Indonesia are blighted by Islamic terror.  The list could go on. 

As for how many Western borders go without bloodshed...when was the last time the US fought Mexico?  How about Canada?

Look, you will never convince me of the equivalencies between Christians and Moslems.  Islamic terrorism is there and on a large scale.  Christians are being persecuted as we speak.
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« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2012, 03:00:00 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

Actually the Byzantine emperors was quite tolerant towards other faiths, ask any Jew.    Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2012, 03:14:31 PM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

I was actually referring moreso to the Byzantine emperors.

Actually the Byzantine emperors was quite tolerant towards other faiths, ask any Jew.    Smiley

Go ask Salpy and you can have fifty pages on their "tolerance" of the OO.
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« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »

As both an OO and someone who just tries to live a principled life, I do not appreciate the OO/EO divide being invoked here to provide rationalization of Islamic atrocities.

Quote
Then if we'd like to talk about how people in general, as opposed to just Muslims, do horrible things for power (which is the real cause of virtually any war where religion is used as a cover)

^ This is the real problem, I believe, in discussing these matters. There are some people on this website who believe that religion can never have a real role in conflicts, and so those of us who argue that it does are unfairly projecting onto Islam our biases and flawed theories. The problem, of course, is that it is Islam which places its religious dogma at the forefront of its persecutions of the rest of the world, not those who recognize it as doing so. When Qur'an 9:29 says that the unbelievers are to be fought even among the so-called "People of the Book" (us and the Jews), it is on account of what they believe, or rather, what they don't believe (i.e., Islam). That's the reality of the situation. Of course, power does come in, in the sense that Muslims are to rule over non-Muslims (because only one religion is acceptable to God, and to the unbelievers is a fiery doom, and blahblahblahblah), but that is certainly not to the exclusion of religious claims...as you can tell if you do not have this preexisting prejudice that all conflicts involving Muslims must really be about something else, they are a package deal in Islam: Love Muhammad's religion, lust after that which Muhammad lusted after.
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« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2012, 09:00:07 AM »

A Serbian Orthodox priest was shot in the head, and his wife assaulted, as armed robbers attacked the couple in their home in Bosnia. The attackers fled the scene after the May 31 incident.

From the article:
Quote
Police said Serbian Orthodox Priest Sava Todorovic was injured but survived after armed "masked robbers" entering his residence, tied, physically abused and shot him early Thursday, May 31.

His wife, Jelica Todorovic, "was also bound and physically abused" during the attack in Kalenderovci village, near the town of Derventa in Bosnia's Republic Srpska.

The thieves were probably Muslims.  It's not an offense to Allah to rob and attack Christians. Angry

Once more, you know not what you are talking about.
Have you read the Koran and Hadiths? There is no way you could have read them and disagree with that statement. Both encourage the rooting out of the infidels "of the Book."

Actually I have read substantial portions of the Qur'an, and quite a few Hadith.  At one point in my life, I was like many Americans, and believed Islam was completely evil and all the Muslims were terrorists just waiting for the right opportunity to murder you and I.  Then I decided to learn about Islam by reading books written by Muslims, often very old books.  This taught me that prejudice is wrong.

The context for Qur'anic verses is generally known, and the context makes it a whole lot less frightening a book than the Bible, where we don't really know why God decided to massacre everyone in the land of Canaan.  Of course, we do know He was evidently racist, as evidenced by His murder of every first-born son in the land of Egypt, in order to free the Israelites.  You'd think He could of, you know, just sent angels to show His power before Pharoah, in order to avoid all the death, but whatever.  Before you attack the Muslims as having a religion of violence, think long and hard about what our Father did in the Old Testament (and if you bring up the old canard about how it's different since Jesus - which has its own problems - I hope you at least hate the Jews just as much as you do the Muslims).

James, you know I respect and love you, but I am quite tired of you Anglo/Celt/Teuton/Frank/Goth/Vandal/Norman types telling us who have actually tasted the bitter fruit of Islamic domination what Islam is and/or is not.

Perhaps I am unfairly ascribing views and motives to you which are not your own in my state of heightened emotion, but you must understand that history leaves an indelible mark.

And I suppose Orthodoxy requires the persecution and execution of heretics, and therefore all non-Orthodox are rightful to fear an Orthodox country.

You can keep trying to draw these false equivalences ...

I am not saying that Islam and Muslims are universally bad, but trying to point to the killing of the first-born in Genesis and some witch-burnings in mediaeval Europe and extrapolating from there that Islam and Christianity are really no different when it comes to perpetrating or justifying violence is untrue to reality.

You're right to ask those of us with strong feelings about this matter to control ourselves and to see the good in the "other side", but you are quite wrong to dismiss real and justifiable fears with a hand-wave from the comfort of your American home.

There is a draft waiting for you, if you don't get off your hobby horse.

Are you living in Fallujah all the sudden?

Egypt and Northern Cyprus are not exactly happy places for Christians, and there are three generations in my family still living who remember the pain and loss they experienced there.

Is it my own experience? No, though I have experienced the effects of it, which were not particularly fun themselves.

My own feelings towards Islam rise no higher than disquiet, but I simply cannot stand people who have experienced nothing of Islamic domination telling those who have that they are simply paranoid bigots and that, in any case, Christianity/Christians is/are just as bad anyway.

I think the suspicions and heightened emotions of those who have suffered are understandable and even perhaps justified. I have already said, though, that they might require correction. I only say that such correction should be done in the right way: not dismissively and without sensitivity.

In another context, it would be me making defence of Islam and Muslims.

Ok so replace Muslim with Russian and a few of the locations and you have the same narrative. 

So who wants to talk about restricting Russian immigration to the West and the suspect nature of the Orthodox Church?   
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« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2012, 01:50:41 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.
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« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2012, 02:20:15 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy
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« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2012, 09:23:19 AM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.
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« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2012, 03:19:10 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.
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« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2012, 03:25:46 PM »


Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.
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« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »


Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.

Yes; God took vengeance on the children of other people, because the Egyptian government killed the Israelites' male children; and God ordered the death of all the men, women, and children because the men attacked the Israelites.  Seems fairly close to an eye for an eye.
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« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2012, 03:35:58 PM »


Yes; God took vengeance on the children of other people, because the Egyptian government killed the Israelites' male children; and God ordered the death of all the men, women, and children because the men attacked the Israelites.  Seems fairly close to an eye for an eye.

God vs Pharaoh
Israel vs Pharaoh's people
God's firstborn vs Pharaoh and his people's firstborn

It seems fair.
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« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2012, 04:15:31 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people. 
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« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2012, 04:50:13 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people. 

It is for me.  God is love.  God is compassion.  God is forgiveness.  I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God.  That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2012, 05:07:06 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people. 

It is for me.  God is love.  God is compassion.  God is forgiveness.  I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God.  That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

How exactly does the Gospel of John keep genocide in context?
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« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2012, 05:11:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!]




How exactly does the Gospel of John keep genocide in context?

It keeps God in context.  It fulfills the Old Testament by telling us that the entirety of the Law is filled in these words, "Love your neighbor."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2012, 05:13:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!]




How exactly does the Gospel of John keep genocide in context?

It keeps God in context.  It fulfills the Old Testament by telling us that the entirety of the Law is filled in these words, "Love your neighbor."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Uh huh
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« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2012, 05:22:14 PM »

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?   Cheesy

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism.  All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people. 

It is for me.  God is love.  God is compassion.  God is forgiveness.  I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God.  That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

You bring up good points.  For what it's worth, the VAST majority of my Bible reading is from the NT.  I have read the Gospel of John twice and am currently reading the Commentaries on it.  It is important to keep in mind that our God is a loving God.  You cannot read the Gospel of John without seeing God's love for mankind shown the Only Begotten Son.

Keeping that in mind, I have no pretensions about my sinful mind being able to understand the fullness that is God.  I have no desire to force God into my rationale.  So when God wipes out a people I have no qualms about it.  He did it for whatever reason He saw fit and it's none of my business why He did it.  Obviously, He saw a good reason to.
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« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2012, 11:34:10 PM »

Quote
[quote author=Theophilos78 link=topic=45080.msg762012#msg762012 date=1339442746]

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.
[/quote]

When the bishop of Limassol in Cyprus, who is considered a future saint, was asked if the U.S. was to blame for what happened to Cyprus, he said 'no'.  The only people that were to blame were the Cypriots, because of their sins.   This doesn't mean that God ordered it, only that God allowed it.  In other words if the people had turned to God and prayed, the Holy Spirit would have softened the hearts of the Turks and the Americans involved like Kissinger, and it would not have occurred.  

Shouldn't we be using this same criteria for the killings in the Bible?  If the OT is stating it differently than the way something is worded in Christianity, it's only because the people in that time and place would not have understood it differently.   Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2012, 01:21:31 AM »

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away?  Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God? 
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« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away?  Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God? 

Before going further, is it safe to assume that you and I worship the same God?  (This is not a pointed or accusatory question.  You don't have which faith you are written down and I don't want to assume.)

If you and I worship the same God, then we can both agree that He is good?  That He is worthy of worship?

I believe that God is good.  Therefore, anything He did in the OT, does not bother me one bit.  God is good.  He did what He felt needed to be done.  End-o-story.

Now, do you believe that the god of the Moslems is somehow comparable to Ours?  If you think Allah = God the Father, well then we have a hangup in terminology.  I do not believe whatever it is that they worship is the true God.  I do not believe that you can worship God the Father without also worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.
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« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2012, 01:44:52 PM »

Amen, vamrat. POM, or it would be if people could deal with that reality. Instead they just see violence over here and violence over there and say we can't make any distinction. Some people here argue like atheists (or Islamic apologists on the internet, who often make this point), not Christians.

ONLY our God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity - is actually God. God is right to issue any command or do any action that He does, or to allow whatever He allows (depending on how you look at it). Of course it involves some brutality in an era of brutal people (e.g., much of the Old Testament, covering the wars among the ancient Hebrews and others), as sometimes when people are too stupid to straighten up otherwise, bad things happen. That's not an excuse for God, but a condemnation of man. What any of that has to do with Muhammad and his partisans, coming HUNDREDS of years after the Christ who taught the ignorant people who previously warred with one another to put away their swords and come to understand the law as it was meant to be from the beginning.

If you have a problem with God in the OT, how can you not have a problem with the NT, wherein God was incarnate in Christ Jesus? Are they two separate Gods? You are bi-theists or henotheists? That's not Christianity.
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« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 04:27:02 PM »

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard.  The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar.  You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter.  Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.     
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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2012, 04:37:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away?  Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?  

Yes, that is what Christ came for, to explain and elaborate what parts of the Old Testament were confusing from our limited perspective.  How does the Apostle Paul sum it up?

Quote
Repay no one evil for evil. Have a regard for good things in the sight of all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath, for it is written, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord.'  Therefore: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him drink; for in doing so you will heap coals of fire on his head.'  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Romans 12:17-21

it is very easy for we Christians, when feeling righteous (or even worse, self-righteous) to pretend to understand the Old Testament God of fiery and immediate vengeance.  We seemingly say to ourselves (even if we don't admit it), "Kudos for God, they must have deserved it, glad it wasn't mean."  Even the Apostles, had this holier than thou attitude from time to time, as expressed by the brothers James and John when they asked Jesus:

Quote
And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?
Luke 9:54-56

The Old Testament is meant to remind us of the wages of sin on account of our OWN guilt, but not to be overly concerned with the sins of others.  Again, the Old Testament God makes ME uncomfortable because of MY OWN SINS, and therefore I constantly need to pray to Jesus Christ that "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner." The Old Testament is then again not an excuse for us to judge others, as James and John attempted, but rather to learn to tangibly appreciate the mercy and love of God as express by Jesus Christ!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2012, 05:24:12 PM »

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard.  The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar.  You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter.  Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.     

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then?  Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian?  I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship.  Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.
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« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2012, 05:33:52 PM »

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard.  The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar.  You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter.  Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.     

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then?  Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian?  I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship.  Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.

My personal beliefs are entirely irrelevant. 

You are left with a few choices as far as I can see:

The OT God was a petty and savage tyrant.  The coming of Christ cancelled all of that.   

The OT is allegorical more or less. 

The violence was culturally / historically isolated.

The first doesn't bode well for claims of immutability of the Divine.  The second is exactly what modern Muslims do to dismiss the unpleasant realities surrounding.  The third makes all ethical claims relative.     
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« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2012, 05:56:28 PM »

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard.  The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar.  You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter.  Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.     

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then?  Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian?  I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship.  Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.

My personal beliefs are entirely irrelevant. 

You are left with a few choices as far as I can see:

The OT God was a petty and savage tyrant.  The coming of Christ cancelled all of that.   

The OT is allegorical more or less. 

The violence was culturally / historically isolated.

The first doesn't bode well for claims of immutability of the Divine.  The second is exactly what modern Muslims do to dismiss the unpleasant realities surrounding.  The third makes all ethical claims relative.     

Your personal beliefs are very relevant, if not the crux of the debate between us.  If you are of a different religion, or agnostic or atheist, then we will obviously have different views on this issue.  I have tried to explain my position based on my religion.  If we are of different religions then there is no more use debating a theological issue.

Please note that I have given my rationalization.  God is God and He can do what He wants without me second guessing him.  Do you believe that God the Father is infallible or do you believe that He made a mistake?

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion.  I care not one iota.  They are deluded.  They do not worship the true God.  If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.
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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2012, 05:59:27 PM »

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion.  I care not one iota.  They are deluded.  They do not worship the true God.  If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.

So a Muslim is wrong because Muslims are wrong not because of any logical reason?  The whole point on this and other threads is that Islam is inherently violent based upon the Quran.  Yet you must hold Christianity and Judaism to the same standard. 
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« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2012, 06:43:04 PM »

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Yet you must hold Christianity and Judaism to the same standard.  

Why? Nothing in Muhammad's religion is in any way relevant to the Christian standard, which was set by CHRIST and the apostles and saints long before Muhammad or Islam ever existed. Nothing in Islam is a useful standard of anything, except perhaps blasphemy and success of said blasphemy.
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« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2012, 08:18:04 PM »

I do not believe whatever it is that they worship is the true God.  I do not believe that you can worship God the Father without also worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

But they seem to acknowledge the fact that Isa was born to Mary, by a Spirit. So, they technically accept there is The Trinity. The problem with Islam and its followers is, they have a mission to fight Christians. Fighting against Christians is their purpose of life, their source of existence. It's just like cancer, which fights everything healthy, once its done with the healthy part it fights and exterminates itself. I am sure once the Muslims have exterminated all Christians on the planet, they will claim everything what Christians used to have and announce themselves as Christians. They already have started taking away from Christians so many things, but they say everything is Muslim. Can you notice the 'pride' part?

Of course, it's impossible that we are sharing The Same God with them. They are they, we are we, they are Satan's chosen ones, we're Christ's chosen ones.



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« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2012, 08:24:42 PM »


A Nazi-Muslim-Catholic-Croat alliance to exterminate Orthodox Serbs, Nazi-Chechnya alliance to fight Orthodox Russians, even the German Kaiser Wilhelm II collaborated with the Turks to exterminate Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians. Catholic Italians were allies to Muslim Ethiopians and Somalis in their quest to destroy Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. Even today, the West is helping Muslims to exterminate Christians in Libya, Egypt, Morocco, Iraq, Indonesia, Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Nigeria, Ivory Coast. How/why on earth is that  possible?

Warning! Not for faint-hearted

“Serbs suffered enormously. As Serbs were being forcibly converted to Catholicism, some 450 Serbian Orthodox churches were demolished and their religious icons defiled. Orthodox clergymen, from ordinary priests to the Metropolitan, were gruesomely tortured and their families shipped to concentration camps where they were subjected to every inhumanity.”

““This is now the Ustasha and Independent State of Croatia. It must be cleansed of all Serbs and Jews. There is no room for any of them here. Not a stone upon a stone will remain of what once belonged to them.” He later assured, “The Jews will be liquidated within a very short time.” To this end, more than 20 Ustasha concentration camps were established for the killing process, manned by combined Catholic and Muslim forces.“

“The legacy of Islamic and Arab hate that spurred the Farhud burned broad enough to help Hitler get ever closer to his goal of exterminating all Jews. But the Third Reich fell. And those in the Arab-Nazi movement went on to form the post-war geopolitical Middle East that prevails in the current century.”

Please follow the link for the rest, it's from a Catholic forum:

http://www.speroforum.com/a/EGDPMCNZYW20/72838-MuslimUsthashe-alliance-aided-Nazi-genocide-in-WW2-Balkans


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« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2012, 09:29:53 AM »

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion.  I care not one iota.  They are deluded.  They do not worship the true God.  If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.

So a Muslim is wrong because Muslims are wrong not because of any logical reason?  The whole point on this and other threads is that Islam is inherently violent based upon the Quran.  Yet you must hold Christianity and Judaism to the same standard. 

No.  Moslems are wrong because they are murdering.  They have no authority to do this.  When the Hebrews in the OT did what they did they did so under the authority of God.  See, this is why I asked what religion you were because it makes no sense to argue with you on this point if you do not worship God.  If you do not worship God then you do not recognize this authority and we have to agree to disagree.

So, if you want me to give you a logical argument:

IF you worship the true God (on an Orthodox forum I am allowed to consider the Trinity to be the true God) THEN you accept His authority.  IF you accept the authority of the true God THEN this becomes and EITHER/OR situation.  You can ONLY worship Him and can ONLY accept His ultimate authority.  IF you worship the true God THEN all other gods are false. They have no authority.

THUS - If the true God orders you to exterminate a population, as we believe He did in the OT, THEN you 1- do it, 2- accept that He has authority to do so - because He is the creator and this is His prerogative.

IF the Moslems decide to do the same thing they do it outside of the authority of God.  Their actions cannot be considered moral based on our understanding of morality.  They have murdered.  Murder = Naughty.


Similar example - A policeman can pull me over for speeding.  He is operating under the authority of the State.  I cannot pull him over for speeding as I lack this authority.  Simple equation, really.



The problem with my argument is that both you and I must accept the authority of God for this to be valid.  Note that I am ONLY making this argument on the assumption that some of the people reading it may be of the same religion as me.  With dzheremi, for instance, I believe this argument holds weight, since he apparently believes in the true God.  You have consistently skirted the issue.  This is inexplicable because on an Orthodox forum you would think that there would be no negative consequences for you to admit to being part of the Orthodox faith.  As it is, since you do not admit to worshiping the true God, I could assume that you do not.  In that case, my argument is invalid since we do not agree on the initial terminology.  In that case, I concede the point.
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« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2012, 01:24:46 PM »

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away?  Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?  

You know many Christians believe that the God of the OT is not the same God as in the NT, but it is not so.  The complete vision of a God consisting of Pure Love is something people could not have comprehended at the time of the OT.  It was only when God felt the time was ripe; that He brought into the world His Word in the Person of Jesus Christ and gave us a full revelation of Himself.  

To understand this more fully, think of the different terminology you would use when explaining something to a six year old in comparison to what you would say to a twenty one year old?  Because we now have a full vision of God, we know that God is incapable of anything other than a love for mankind... but He cannot prevent that which man brings upon himself through his own sins.

 To the spiritually immature audience of the OT, these things could only be understood as God having ordered a destruction  and slaughter.  The people at that time would not have understood it in any other way.   angel    
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