Hands up in the air during the Our Father?

[Jennifer]

I sometimes attend an Orthodox (Antiochian) church for vespers.  Several weeks ago, I noticed that they now raise their arms up (like those charismatic people) during the Our Father.  I have never seen that in an Orthodox church before so I was a bit surprised.  If I witnessed it in an RC church, I'd automatically think it was a charismatic 'whacko' church but I usually give Orthodox churches the benefit of the doubt since I've never observed anything 'whacko' at an Orthodox church.  

So why were they doing that?  

[OrthodoxCelt]

I attend an AOC and know exactly what you're talking about. I don't think it's a new "charismatic" trend. I went to our parish life conference in Austin where 1,000+ people were there for Liturgy (most of whom were arab). I saw alot of them do the same thing. It's not an innovation, it looks like it may be an arab tradition.

[SamB]

An 'orans' posture is common in the Antiochian parishes, not charismatic 'arms up in the air' nonsense.

In IC XC
Samer

[Fr. David]

Right.  That 'orans' position that SamB mentioned is seen in icons of the first- and second-century Church in the Roman catacombs.

[Donna Rose]

im curious...when i was an RC interested in Orthodoxy but still attending RC churches, I was informed by many traditional Catholics that the orans position was prohibited among laypeople by the canons (or something to that effect), basically because it is a pose reserved for the priest, and we are not priests. as such, i stopped doing it at the Our Father...my question is, if this is so, does no such restriction exist in the Orthodox Church? For instance, if I chose to start doing it again (I don't plan to, just making a point) at my OCA parish, would my priest pull me aside and tell me that isn't appropriate? (as a catechumen he would have every right to correct me on any behaviorial "mistakes" i make)...why is it common and acceptable in the lay people in some juristictions and not others?

[Doubting Thomas]

What is the "orans" posture specifically?

[Ebor]

See here: http://www.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/kimball.html

about 2/3's down the page is a picture titled "Contemplating Mary in Heaven"
with the second not-bold type paragraphs below it talking of the "Orans Postion".  

The pictures are from "15th century Greek Orthodox icon painted by iconographer Andreas Ritzos and now located in the Galleria Sabaudo of Turin. The icon originated in Heraklion, Crete."

For Donna: about 3/4's down the page a Q&A titled "Orans Down"
http://www.osv.com/periodicals/show-article.asp?pid=875

Ebor

[The young fogey]

im curious...when i was an RC interested in Orthodoxy but still attending RC churches, I was informed by many traditional Catholics that the orans position was prohibited among laypeople by the canons (or something to that effect), basically because it is a pose reserved for the priest, and we are not priests. as such, i stopped doing it at the Our Father...my question is, if this is so, does no such restriction exist in the Orthodox Church? For instance, if I chose to start doing it again (I don't plan to, just making a point) at my OCA parish, would my priest pull me aside and tell me that isn't appropriate? (as a catechumen he would have every right to correct me on any behaviorial "mistakes" i make)...why is it common and acceptable in the lay people in some juristictions and not others?

As has been mentioned earlier, it's an Arab custom, not a Russian one, so as the OCA are of Russian heritage it might not be something to try out there.

At the Melkite church in Vienna, VA I've done it. I don't do it in Russian churches.

[Augustine]

I suspect it's a "middle eastern thing", as a fellow I know of Syrian descent assumed the same posture when he prayed.

[icxn]

Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place. (Psalm 28)

I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. (Psalm 63)

Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD. (Psalm 134)

May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. (Psalm 141)


You know Witches also offer incense, albeit to demons, that does not make us demon-worshipers now, does it? It is the purpose and inner disposition that matter.

[Arystarcus]

At my parish (OCA), some parishionars also inquired about this practice and our priest said that this is something that we are never to do at any time during the liturgy.

In Christ,
Aaron

[Thomas]

The use of the Orans is an Antiochian tradition from the old country and is used even in the US by many Antiochian churches. It is one of the most ancient method of prayer and is a visual form of pleading, and opening one to the blessings of God raining down from heaven. It may also be used as a form of praise to God (the most frequent use by the "charismatic" movement). Likewise an equally ancient form of prayer is the full metania or prostration (Falling upon one's' face a sign of subjection to the Lord).  Both of these are noted in scripture as noted in one of the prior responses.

In Christ,
Thomas

[Mor Ephrem]

It is also done in the Orthodox (Oriental) Churches.  I do it.  

[Fr. David]

I commune in an OCA parish in Ft. Worth, and no one does it, except my wife and I sometimes...we were chrismated in an AOAA parish and picked it up there...it wasn't a hard thing for us to grasp, though, coming from the charismatic movement like we did...we were just surprised to see something similar in the Orthodox Church!

[Sabbas]

At St.Raphaels those of Arabic descent did the same as well, however it has 'died out' so to speak. Most of our ethnic Orthodox are of Slav and Romanian descent and they definitely don't do that! I follow the practice outlined in the Jordanville prayerbook in which you make the sign of the cross and bow when beginning the Our Father and usually keep my head bowed slightly during the prayer.
We had a monk from Mt.Athos visit us and he stayed bowed down close enough to touch the ground throughout the Our Father and several other parts of the liturgy, and he is in his seventies! To me that looked like the type of piety some of you may see in the Orans. In our sinful age taking the penitent position of the bow just seems more appropriate. What do you think?

[JoeS]

//At my parish (OCA), some parishionars also inquired about this practice and our priest said that this is something that we are never to do at any time during the liturgy.

In Christ,
Aaron//

Personally, I dont think anything is wrong with it.  I do it at the Pascha season ""Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place. (Psalm 28)

I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. (Psalm 63)

Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD. (Psalm 134)

May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. (Psalm 141)""

I do it just before we do the prostrations.  I love it.

JoeS

[Loukas]

At our OCA mission, which is made up of "converts" from the AAA and GOA, you'll see some from a cradle Antiochian background doing this. However, it is with hands horizonatal and palms up. I understand the Orans to be hands vertical and palms forward. So it's not a true Orans. It doesn't bother me, and the priest hasn't counseled against it. I also understand the Russian practice to include kneeling at the Our Father, at least on weekdays.

luke

[J]

A quick answer could be given concerning the description of Christ when He said the first Our Father, which I'm pretty sure mentions him lifting his hands to the sky.  The trick here, though, is that the priest is supposed to be the representative of the bishop, who in turn is the icon of Christ in the midst of The Church, so maybe it is a priestly thing.  I could understand why it'd be more widespread and acceptable in Middle Eastern culture, as gestures with the hands and body are more important than in other cultures.  Of course, when in doubt, seek advice from a spiritual father or someone like that...

[Ghazar]

It is also done in the Orthodox (Oriental) Churches. I do it.

So do we Armenians.

[Ian Lazarus]

Its done by me as well, and I am a part of an Antiochian Parish.  We see it in the great Icon of the virgin "More Spacious Than the Heavens", and its also seen as a way to "Lift up our hearts" in the Our Father. I've seen the bowing and the crossing too.  Vive la diference!

Ian Lazarus  :grommit:

[admiralnick]

Fr. Patrick Reardon (for those that have heard of him) Spoke about this at his church one time after the service during the Adult Religious Education Class. He said that the raising of hands towards heaven during the service is analogus to a young child who stretches his/her arms towards the sky when he/she wants to be raised by a parent or other adult. Likewise, we raise our hands and ask God to lift us up towards him and hold and comfort us while we pray.  Hope this helps a tiny bit.

-Nick

P.S. Carpatho-Russians don't do it either.

[Irish Melkite]

I'd agree that it is a Middle Eastern (actually, probably Oriental) thing.

It is done in both the Melkite and Antiochian churches hereabouts and elsewhere (and, historically, their praxis began as Antiochene - not Byzantine, which came later. That thought suggests to me the possibility that its origin is in the Oriental Churches). I have also seen it done in both the Orthodox and Catholic churches of the Armenians and Syriacs.

I am very sure that I haven't seen it done by Russians, Ruthenians, or Ukrainians, nor by Albanians or Serbs, as far as I can remember, nor by the Maronites. As to the Greeks, I'm blanking - but I don't think so.

Many years,

Neil

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm glade I found this thread.  I was just wondering why Orthodox don't utilize the orans posture during worship.

My Serbian parish does not do this, but it seems like such a beautiful and ancient expression, one in keeping with the early church.  It seems like a shame that it would be neglected, much in the same way that we Eastern Orthodox do not utilize full prostrations other than at Lent.

[scamandrius]

I sometimes attend an Orthodox (Antiochian) church for vespers.  Several weeks ago, I noticed that they now raise their arms up (like those charismatic people) during the Our Father.  I have never seen that in an Orthodox church before so I was a bit surprised.  
So why were they doing that?  

Have you ever seen platytera icons?  The Virgin Mary's hands are extended in the same manner indicating her prayer.  Good for the Virgin Mary, good for us.

[Michał Kalina]

Well, in my parish there's a practise that during the Creed and Lord's Prayer a deacon is accompanied by ponomars while staying in front of the parishioners backwards to the iconostasis and conducting.

IMO the fact that they are prevented from horsing about is much more important that the symbolical meaning

[BasilCan]

This is a middle eastern custom and is copied by Muslims who pray in the same way. The prostrations that we do have also been copied by the Muslums, who seem to do it better!!!!!!

An old Russian priest told me once that, he prayed like this in his cell, but not in church. Not because it was wrong, but because "we don't do that in church." When, as a westerner I asked why, he said "probably in packed churches, when people stand as they should, they would end up knocking each others' eyes out!"

Basil

[ialmisry]

I'm glade I found this thread.  I was just wondering why Orthodox don't utilize the orans posture during worship.

My Serbian parish does not do this, but it seems like such a beautiful and ancient expression, one in keeping with the early church.  It seems like a shame that it would be neglected, much in the same way that we Eastern Orthodox do not utilize full prostrations other than at Lent.

I don't know what Church's prayers you are saying, but I prostrate quite a lot.  Just never on Sunday.  Then again, I'm Middle Eastern (I picked up orans going to the Coptic Church for a while).

[Alveus Lacuna]

Well I had another thread about prostrations.  I just do not know the proper time to do full prostrations.  I know about the "little prostrations" during the "Holy God, Holy Mighty...", but when are the proper times for full prostrations?

[Andrew21091]

Well I had another thread about prostrations.  I just do not know the proper time to do full prostrations.  I know about the "little prostrations" during the "Holy God, Holy Mighty...", but when are the proper times for full prostrations?

We are not to do them on Sundays and from Pascha to Pentecost since we are standing in the light of the Resurrection during those periods. In the Orthodox Church nowadays you only see prostrations during Lent during the Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian but I don't see it that much outside of that period which is unfortunate. The Old Believers have kept the tradition and when to do prostrations is outlined in their Prayer Book (printed by Church of the Nativity in Erie). They do them after the "More honorable" prayer and the dissmissal prayers and some others.


On the raising of hands during the Our Father, it's done by maybe half of the people at my parish. When I first started going there, nobody did it but a few years ago many just picked it up.

[Michał Kalina]

I noticed that rules of making half-prostrations or full prostrations are different in every parish. In some people do half-prostrations during the Epiclesis, in other ones parishioners knee even on the whole Cherubin's Hymn an Major Entrance. I wanted to find strict rules when do do full, when half- but it's impossible.

IMO when You come to parish You're not accustomed to, follow the others, so that You won't do disturbance in the Church.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I commune in an OCA parish in Ft. Worth, and no one does it, except my wife and I sometimes...we were chrismated in an AOAA parish and picked it up there...it wasn't a hard thing for us to grasp, though, coming from the charismatic movement like we did...we were just surprised to see something similar in the Orthodox Church!

I have a similar experience. In fact, it was one of our members who was a former Muslim who introduced me to the idea, having seen it in an Antiochian parish. Now several of us who are former Muslims and Pentecostals raise our hands during the Our Father. I think of it as a connexion to my past, a way of fulfilling what I knew partially as a Protestant.

[Fr.Aidan]

Christ is risen.

An interesting thread. I did, actually, the first time I saw this practice, think that it had been imported from the satanic "Charismatic" movement. But it does, as we know, have an ancient history, and a modern history which is not limited to the Oriental churches. In Munich, in the early 20th century, the orans was common among the people attending Roman Catholic Mass.

It's similar to the old Western Rite practice of praying "in the cross," that is, with one's arms stretched out wide like Christ crucified. Which is done by the priest at the old Roman rite Mass, but not by the people, who, however, do use this posture in their private prayers. Or used to.

[Cantor Krishnich]

This is an ancient prayer posture imported that is still kept by the Middle Eastern Christians of all denominations (Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Orthodox, Arab Melkite and Roman Catholics, and every Oriental Orthodox [Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc]).

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=SpBdsqyKNEA

[Hiwot]

This is an ancient prayer posture imported that is still kept by the Middle Eastern Christians of all denominations (Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Orthodox, Arab Melkite and Roman Catholics, and every Oriental Orthodox [Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc]).

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=SpBdsqyKNEA

wonderful link thank you!

[dzheremi]

As it has been explained to me, prayer is taking from God, and it is hard to take/grasp anything with your hands closed. It may not be the most spiritual or historical explanation ever, but it works for me.

[Cantor Krishnich]

This is an ancient prayer posture imported that is still kept by the Middle Eastern Christians of all denominations (Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Orthodox, Arab Melkite and Roman Catholics, and every Oriental Orthodox [Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc]).

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=SpBdsqyKNEA

wonderful link thank you!

Youre welcome!   The Ethiopians also have distinct ancient postures/practices in prayer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=d2m2FhYsU0o

[Hiwot]

This is an ancient prayer posture imported that is still kept by the Middle Eastern Christians of all denominations (Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Orthodox, Arab Melkite and Roman Catholics, and every Oriental Orthodox [Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc]).

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=SpBdsqyKNEA

wonderful link thank you!

Youre welcome!   The Ethiopians also have distinct ancient postures/practices in prayer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9608943AC99A2E03&feature=player_detailpage&v=d2m2FhYsU0o

yes  that constant movement from right to left, then from left to right, with open stretch arms, in a joyous and prayerful thanks giving of Christ's victory over death and Satan and the libration of Adam and his children who had went from paradise to hell then back to Paradise. the message of our salvation  the reason of all joyous hymns thus it always accompanies them. when the hymn is a hymn of repentance the arms will be stretched out in prayer or crossed on the chest with the tips of the fingers touching the shoulders so in both postures one is mindful of the Cross.
 

[Shanghaiski]

I sometimes attend an Orthodox (Antiochian) church for vespers.  Several weeks ago, I noticed that they now raise their arms up (like those charismatic people) during the Our Father.  I have never seen that in an Orthodox church before so I was a bit surprised.  If I witnessed it in an RC church, I'd automatically think it was a charismatic 'whacko' church but I usually give Orthodox churches the benefit of the doubt since I've never observed anything 'whacko' at an Orthodox church.  

So why were they doing that?  

Lay people who raise their arms like priests during church services deserve the all-holy smack down. They do it because they are ignorant or misguided.

--Wait. Maybe, after reading the other replies, perhaps my Inner Russian was acting up. Must put down pirozhki...

[Ortho_cat]

I sometimes attend an Orthodox (Antiochian) church for vespers.  Several weeks ago, I noticed that they now raise their arms up (like those charismatic people) during the Our Father.  I have never seen that in an Orthodox church before so I was a bit surprised.  If I witnessed it in an RC church, I'd automatically think it was a charismatic 'whacko' church but I usually give Orthodox churches the benefit of the doubt since I've never observed anything 'whacko' at an Orthodox church.  

So why were they doing that?  

several people at our parish hold their hands up (navel level) during the our father similar to how the priest does when he says "let us lift up our hearts" this is a traditional posture of prayer that has been done for millenia. Certainly nothing new.

Personally, I hold my hands in a cup form like I am receiving a blessing from a priest.

[orthonorm]

It's odd. End of story.

For this one prayer, hold your arms up. Forget when we actually say we hold our arms up . . .

What would Herman do?

[GabrieltheCelt]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

[orthonorm]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

When in Rome or in this case the Third Moscow.

Ain't it just a Middle Eastern / Oriental thing.

[Punch]

Some people just have to be different, so they pray in strange ways.  Interestingly, I don't see it among the local Arabs here, just the Converts.  So, I also thought it was some strange innovation brought over from their Protestant mega-Church pasts.  Glad to see that I may be wrong.  But still, I am not going to do it.

[minasoliman]

We do this:



Not this:

[dzheremi]

Yes. We are praying to God, not hailing a cab.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

So just forget what your local church taught because ... everyone else is jumping off the bridge?  I see.  All you cultural anthropologists/ethnologists out there take note.  Maybe you should stick to the important stuff like dating advice, sport.

[orthonorm]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

So just forget what your local church taught because ... everyone else is jumping off the bridge?  I see.  All you cultural anthropologists/ethnologists out there take note.  Maybe you should stick to the important stuff like dating advice, sport.

Donny, you are out of your element. Dude, the Orientals are not the issue here.

[dzheremi]

It's true. We did not, in fact, build the railroads. The pyramids, on the other hand...

[FormerReformer]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

When in Rome or in this case the Third Moscow.

Ain't it just a Middle Eastern / Oriental thing.

But, at an Antiochian parish (where I've seen it done many a time in many different parishes), it's not odd. Its also not odd that American converts would emulate the pious practices of those they worship with. And its not entirely odd when one is visiting a parish of a different jurisdiction if, instead of looking around to see what everyone else is doing, one does what they always do- from habit if from nothing else.

Would that American Orthodoxy were more like the description of Orthodoxy given by an English Professor held by orthonorm in such low esteem- "Some stood, some knelt, some sat, some walked; one crawled about the floor like a caterpillar. And the beauty of it was that nobody took the slightest notice of what anyone else was doing."

[GabrieltheCelt]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

So just forget what your local church taught because ... everyone else is jumping off the bridge?  I see.  All you cultural anthropologists/ethnologists out there take note.  Maybe you should stick to the important stuff like dating advice, sport.

Donny,

Another obscure reference from the uber-cool.  We're all impressed, I just know it. 

Dude, the Orientals are not the issue here.

Not even close to what I was saying.  FormerReformer broke it down nicely, if you need help.

[minasoliman]

Yes. We are praying to God, not hailing a cab.

+1 

[Alveus Lacuna]

I can confirm that at the Antiochian Parish in the Kansas City metro that everybody does this. A healthy mix of ethnic/cradles and converts of various stripes. I've never seen it at another parish in the city, other than when they come around for the Pan-Orthodox stuff during Lent.

I personally found it very moving when I first saw it and occasionally do it during my private prayers at home when I get to the Our Father, but forget about me trying to introduce it when none else is doing it. Then you're like the weirdos who refuse to sit in the pews when they visit churches where they sit during certain parts of the liturgy. It's just stupid and creepy to be intentionally defiant; I bear witness to these kind of Herman moments during the Pan-Orthodox services of Lent. Always someone in the middle of the church, who knows everyone else will sit, and waits for his moment to shine during the service.

[podkarpatska]

I can confirm that at the Antiochian Parish in the Kansas City metro that everybody does this. A healthy mix of ethnic/cradles and converts of various stripes. I've never seen it at another parish in the city, other than when they come around for the Pan-Orthodox stuff during Lent.

I personally found it very moving when I first saw it and occasionally do it during my private prayers at home when I get to the Our Father, but forget about me trying to introduce it when none else is doing it. Then you're like the weirdos who refuse to sit in the pews when they visit churches where they sit during certain parts of the liturgy. It's just stupid and creepy to be intentionally defiant; I bear witness to these kind of Herman moments during the Pan-Orthodox services of Lent. Always someone in the middle of the church, who knows everyone else will sit, and waits for his moment to shine during the service.

+1

[FormerReformer]

I can confirm that at the Antiochian Parish in the Kansas City metro that everybody does this. A healthy mix of ethnic/cradles and converts of various stripes. I've never seen it at another parish in the city, other than when they come around for the Pan-Orthodox stuff during Lent.

I personally found it very moving when I first saw it and occasionally do it during my private prayers at home when I get to the Our Father, but forget about me trying to introduce it when none else is doing it. Then you're like the weirdos who refuse to sit in the pews when they visit churches where they sit during certain parts of the liturgy. It's just stupid and creepy to be intentionally defiant; I bear witness to these kind of Herman moments during the Pan-Orthodox services of Lent. Always someone in the middle of the church, who knows everyone else will sit, and waits for his moment to shine during the service.

One would hope, during a Pan-Orthodox service, that at least there would be the excuse that there wasn't room to sit!

[Ortho_cat]

Some people just have to be different, so they pray in strange ways.  Interestingly, I don't see it among the local Arabs here, just the Converts.  So, I also thought it was some strange innovation brought over from their Protestant mega-Church pasts.  Glad to see that I may be wrong.  But still, I am not going to do it.

ah when in doubt, blame it on the converts and their Protestant baggage...

[Ortho_cat]

We do this:

I like how the OO's pray. You don't see people swaying like in the Ethiopian Churches, do you?

[LBK]

We do this:

There is an icon in the background which shows a saint praying in the orans posture. A perfect complement to what the congregation is doing. 

[Orthodox11]

It's a normal posture of prayer throughout the Semitic world

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Some people just have to be different, so they pray in strange ways.  Interestingly, I don't see it among the local Arabs here, just the Converts.  So, I also thought it was some strange innovation brought over from their Protestant mega-Church pasts.  Glad to see that I may be wrong.  But still, I am not going to do it.

When I lived in Istanbul, only the priest's wife did prostrations during Great Lent. I thought it odd that she would pray like the Muslims. So, when I saw other folks do prostrations in the United States (mainly in churches without pews), I realized how wrong I was; for all that I knew, the Muslims emulated earlier Orthodox practice and not the opposite. So, when I saw a Russian couple, Orthodox nuns and some converts elevate their hands, palm up, at the waist level during the Lord's Prayer, I thought to myself that it made sense and started doing it myself. If you think about it, it is a much more descriptive supplicatory gesture (especially at "Give us this day our daily bread") than the usual western one of hands joined together at the chest level.

[Ortho_cat]

It's a normal posture of prayer throughout the Semitic world

what faith are these guys?

[minasoliman]

We do this:

I like how the OO's pray. You don't see people swaying like in the Ethiopian Churches, do you?

Just Ethiopians.

We do this:

There is an icon in the background which shows a saint praying in the orans posture. A perfect complement to what the congregation is doing. 

that's the icon of St Mina :-)

It's a normal posture of prayer throughout the Semitic world

what faith are these guys?

it looks like Islam with the rugs, the clothing, the beard, the way they line up, how close their hands are together as if they're holding a bowl.

[dzheremi]

I have never seen an icon of St. Mina where he wasn't in that position. If it is good for St. Mina, what excuse do I have not to do it? But I'm not going to buy a camel. I'm sorry. I may live in the desert now, and be surrounded by Egyptians, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

[minasoliman]

I have never seen an icon of St. Mina where he wasn't in that position. If it is good for St. Mina, what excuse do I have not to do it? But I'm not going to buy a camel. I'm sorry. I may live in the desert now, and be surrounded by Egyptians, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

lol

The more ancient icons of St Mina depict him as a soldier on horse, almost like St George. I saw this in an ancient Coptic Church once. The EOs depict him similarly.

[dzheremi]

Oh, really? Maybe I saw one of those and thought it was someone else. Do you have a link to one of these ancient icons? I have only seen ones that look like the one you just showed in this thread.

Oh, wait...and the "Christ and St. Mina" icon that is on the cover of my copy of Benedicta Ward's translation of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (which I literally had right next to me when I wrote that other post; do'h). But he doesn't look like a soldier in that one, either. Hmm.

[Cantor Krishnich]

It's a normal posture of prayer throughout the Semitic world

what faith are these guys?

These are muslims offering prayers during the hajj in Mecca (their clothes are Muslim pilgrimage garments).

[orthonorm]

Not odd at all.  For those paying attention, it's a Middle Eastern/Oriental thing.  Unless, of course, they're considered odd.

Umm, when you are one or three in a parish doing it. It's odd.

So just forget what your local church taught because ... everyone else is jumping off the bridge?  I see.  All you cultural anthropologists/ethnologists out there take note.  Maybe you should stick to the important stuff like dating advice, sport.

Donny,

Another obscure reference from the uber-cool.  We're all impressed, I just know it. 

Dude, the Orientals are not the issue here.

Not even close to what I was saying.  FormerReformer broke it down nicely, if you need help.

Your obsession with besting me is besting your ability to do that very thing.

Go back to what I was referring to.

When in Rome as always.

[NicholasMyra]

We do this:

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

[Orthodox11]

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

Or, given the way that it's how everyone else in the Middle East prays, it's how prayer is described in our Scriptures, depicted on our icons, and how our priests pray in Church, that it has nothing to do with Protestants.

[Severian]

Yes. We are praying to God, not hailing a cab.

+1 

+2

[podkarpatska]

This entire discussion really points out one of the real world problems we face within Orthodoxy, particularly when we speak in hushed, reverential tones about the need for unity in America.

One of the causes, if not THE cause of disunity - is the refusal of each group of ethnic Orthodox to either accept the legitimacy of local traditions at odds with what they have learned either as children or as converts.

THE fear that is in the heart of most Orthodox in the Americas is that when such 'Unity' comes upon us that one group or the other will 'tell' us that that what we do is 'heterodox' or that another tradition is 'better.'

Frankly I think that we have to place some of the blame for this not on our yia-yias or babas or grandmothers, but rather on ourselves for being close minded and upon our hierarchs and clergy for not having the pastoral wisdom over the past century of the American experience in America to realize that cultural imperialism is not going to be the path to growth or unity here.

I was personally unaware of the 'hands up' in the Arab tradition. However, it does seem to be a long standing and venerable pious custom of our Arab Christian brothers and sisters. Why debate this? Especially in such acerbic and 'knowing' tones that many like to use when espousing the validity of one pious expression over another or in purporting to demonstrate the impropriety of one over the other.

I think that Second Chance's observations have a great deal of validity. We can learn much from our brothers and sisters and learn from the cultural context in which they worship.

[Marc1152]

It's a normal posture of prayer throughout the Semitic world

what faith are these guys?

I've seen Jewish Women hold their hands in a similar position when they light Shabbat Candles.

[age234]

We do this:

This is also common at my Antiochian parish. About half of the people do this, I would say, during the Our Father.

Another thing I notice, slightly OT: in Antiochian parishes, especially ethnic Arab parishes, it seems common for some to say the prayer behind the ambon (O Lord who blesses those who bless thee...) in unison with the priest. Not aloud like the Creed, but kind of under their breath. I assume this is also something from the Old Country.

[dzheremi]

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

Really? What then is the Orthodox *way* of holding one's arms at one's side, hands out?  Apparently your holy EO bodies must work differently than ours, since we're so influenced by Protestants. But then, we wouldn't be the first ones. After all...



Look at this Protestant, hanging out in the 2nd century catacombs in Rome. It's disgraceful!



Another early Protestant, St. Agnes. Thank goodness we don't have such people around us today, Protestanting up our churches with their examples of martyrdom and improper limb arrangement.



Not you too, Theotokos! Is there no one these Protestants can't get to with their Protestantly Protestant Protestantizing influences?!



Hey, St. Apollinaris of Ravenna! Put down the "Left Behind" books I know you're hiding somewhere in your robes and get back to tending those sheep! They're looking at you because they're disgusted by your clearly heretical posture.



Is Christ really blessing Alexander Nevskiy? Lord, can't you see that he's imitating the Protestants?!

That's it, I give up! There are just too many Protestants around...

[NicholasMyra]

 Not the act of holding hands in the air itself.

There is a difference between the Orans and droopy protestant invisible fish-holding hands.

In the back right of mina's pic, some guys are actually doing the orans.

Apparently your holy EO bodies must work differently than ours, since we're so influenced by Protestants.

Nope, so are we.

[Severian]

^Do you have any evidence for your claim?

[NicholasMyra]

^Do you have any evidence for your claim?

Not really, it's more of an anecdotal observation than a claim.

Would it really be so horrible if the prot style of hand raising, of all things, was used a bit in the church?

[Shanghaiski]

Oh, really? Maybe I saw one of those and thought it was someone else. Do you have a link to one of these ancient icons? I have only seen ones that look like the one you just showed in this thread.

Oh, wait...and the "Christ and St. Mina" icon that is on the cover of my copy of Benedicta Ward's translation of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (which I literally had right next to me when I wrote that other post; do'h). But he doesn't look like a soldier in that one, either. Hmm.

Abba Mina, not the Great Martyr

[Shanghaiski]

There is a difference between the Orans and droopy protestant invisible fish-holding hands.

You get a cookie!

They have to hold fish, since they abandoned the Cross.

[dzheremi]

Oh, really? Maybe I saw one of those and thought it was someone else. Do you have a link to one of these ancient icons? I have only seen ones that look like the one you just showed in this thread.

Oh, wait...and the "Christ and St. Mina" icon that is on the cover of my copy of Benedicta Ward's translation of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (which I literally had right next to me when I wrote that other post; do'h). But he doesn't look like a soldier in that one, either. Hmm.

Abba Mina, not the Great Martyr

Ah, thank you. I didn't think they were the same (as that one doesn't look like the others), but the book jacket photo credit just says "St. Mina", and, well...you know...Coptic Orthodox...so many Minas! 

[Shanghaiski]

Oh, really? Maybe I saw one of those and thought it was someone else. Do you have a link to one of these ancient icons? I have only seen ones that look like the one you just showed in this thread.

Oh, wait...and the "Christ and St. Mina" icon that is on the cover of my copy of Benedicta Ward's translation of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (which I literally had right next to me when I wrote that other post; do'h). But he doesn't look like a soldier in that one, either. Hmm.

Abba Mina, not the Great Martyr

Ah, thank you. I didn't think they were the same (as that one doesn't look like the others), but the book jacket photo credit just says "St. Mina", and, well...you know...Coptic Orthodox...so many Minas! 

And Greek, Menas. And both have the nasty habit of dropping the s.

[dzheremi]

Eh, one language's nasty habit is another's morphology. Menas in Greek, but Mina in Coptic and Arabic. It's all the same. I really just wanted to write "So Many Minas"...if there were ever a Coptic reality TV show...

*shudders*

[Shanghaiski]

Eh, one language's nasty habit is another's morphology. Menas in Greek, but Mina in Coptic and Arabic. It's all the same. I really just wanted to write "So Many Minas"...if there were ever a Coptic reality TV show...

*shudders*

Maybe Egypt needs the Coptic version of The Cosby Show. The Coptic Show. Oh dear.

[dzheremi]

Be careful what you wish for...you say that around the wrong people, you end up with things like this and this.

[Orthodox11]

Menas in Greek, but Mina in Coptic and Arabic. It's all the same.

The Greek and Coptic are spelled exactly the same MHNA. The "s" at the end is simply an indicator of the nominative case. H is normally transliterated as 'e' in English, while spelling it with an 'i' reflects current Greek/Coptic pronunciation. No difference.

[Peter J]

the satanic "Charismatic" movement

You've got to love Orthodox forums. Heck, we should label everyone we don't like as devil-worshippers.  

[Orthodox11]

You've got to love Orthodox forums. Heck, we should label everyone we don't like as devil-worshippers.  

Get thee behind me papist!

[Peter J]

You've got to love Orthodox forums. Heck, we should label everyone we don't like as devil-worshippers.  

Get thee behind me papist!

And proud of it! 

P.S. Well, okay, maybe "proud" isn't the right word. :thoughtful:

[Peter J]

Eh, one language's nasty habit is another's morphology. Menas in Greek, but Mina in Coptic and Arabic. It's all the same. I really just wanted to write "So Many Minas"...if there were ever a Coptic reality TV show...

*shudders*

Maybe Egypt needs the Coptic version of The Cosby Show. The Coptic Show. Oh dear.

I've heard good things about Armenian Idol.

[Peter J]

Moe: “So, what kind of reality shows are we talkin’ about here?”
Talent agent: “Well, to name just a few:
- America’s Ripest Bananas
- So You Think You Can Judge
- Who Wants to Be a Welder?
- Poodle Vs. Elephant
- Leg Swap
- Old People Try to Figure Out Computers
- American Idol
- Dancing with Cars of the Stars
- America’s Drunkest Nobody
- Let’s Make a Veal…”
Moe: “Love that show.”
Talent agent: “Somali Pirate Apprentice…”
Moe: “Right, yeah, with those guys.”
Talent agent: “Fix Andy Dick…”
Moe: “It’s about time.”
Talent agent: “Bottom Chef, My Life on Kathy Griffin, Pimp My Crypt, Are You Fatter than a Fifth Grader?, and Grave Robbers of Orange County.”
Moe: “Geez, that’s, uh, quite a list.”
Talent agent: “Hang on.  I’m getting a text.  Ooh, those were all just cancelled, except for American Idol.”
Moe: “Did you just say Armenian Idol?  Cause that’s my favorite show!”
Talent agent: “No, no, no, no, no, American Idol!”
Moe: “Oh, yeah.  Who’s their Igor Glumov?”
Talent agent: “Randy Jackson.”
Moe: “Ah, good enough.”

[podkarpatska]

It seems as if my comments in reply #69 have been validated by the continued nature of the comments here.

I can't imagine that many Bishops will have the wisdom to guide a diocese based on geography which contains a plethora of varied ethnic traditions without gradually (or worse yet, quickly) imposing the ones he was raised in or adopted. The chaos that will ensue may very well destroy many congregations if the intolerance displayed here is any indicator.

[dzheremi]

Menas in Greek, but Mina in Coptic and Arabic. It's all the same.

The Greek and Coptic are spelled exactly the same MHNA. The "s" at the end is simply an indicator of the nominative case. H is normally transliterated as 'e' in English, while spelling it with an 'i' reflects current Greek/Coptic pronunciation. No difference.

Yep.

[orthonorm]

It seems as if my comments in reply #69 have been validated by the continued nature of the comments here.

I can't imagine that many Bishops will have the wisdom to guide a diocese based on geography which contains a plethora of varied ethnic traditions without gradually (or worse yet, quickly) imposing the ones he was raised in or adopted. The chaos that will ensue may very well destroy many congregations if the intolerance displayed here is any indicator.

Bishops in North America barely have time to visit the parishes they oversee much less start worrying about such details.

Where is the intolerance here?

[vamrat]

I cannot pass by this thread without Korn singing "Word Up" in my mind.  ("Wave your hands in the air like you don't care, glide by the people as they stop to look and stare...")

I hope that the next time I go to the Antiochian Church I don't have this problem and burst out laughing.

Usually in the Lord's Prayer I try to lift up my heart like the priest says to do in the preceding line.  The hand thing gets a little weird.  But like they say, it takes all kinds of people to make a boat float.

[mabsoota]

don't worry, the netodox are not the best indicator of general practice
 

[Schultz]

I cannot pass by this thread without Korn singing "Word Up" in my mind.  ("Wave your hands in the air like you don't care, glide by the people as they stop to look and stare...")

I hope that the next time I go to the Antiochian Church I don't have this problem and burst out laughing.

Usually in the Lord's Prayer I try to lift up my heart like the priest says to do in the preceding line.  The hand thing gets a little weird.  But like they say, it takes all kinds of people to make a boat float.

KORN?!  KORN?!?!

That song is first and foremost a CAMEO song. 

This is just as bad as people buying the sub-par Glee! covers of classic pop songs and referring to them as "that song from Glee!".

KORN?!?!

[vamrat]

I cannot pass by this thread without Korn singing "Word Up" in my mind.  ("Wave your hands in the air like you don't care, glide by the people as they stop to look and stare...")

I hope that the next time I go to the Antiochian Church I don't have this problem and burst out laughing.

Usually in the Lord's Prayer I try to lift up my heart like the priest says to do in the preceding line.  The hand thing gets a little weird.  But like they say, it takes all kinds of people to make a boat float.

KORN?!  KORN?!?!

That song is first and foremost a CAMEO song. 

This is just as bad as people buying the sub-par Glee! covers of classic pop songs and referring to them as "that song from Glee!".

KORN?!?!

I will grant you the Ruductio ad Gleeum, but I still think the Korn version of the song was the better of the two.  Sometimes the remake is just better.  I present "I'm Not Knocking on Heaven's Door" as evidence.  I still agree with you that most of the songs performed on Glee have been abortions.  (Note, that I cannot comment on any new episodes of Glee.  I am single now, and still cling to shreds of heterosexuality so I have not seen that show in over a year.)

[Schultz]

I cannot pass by this thread without Korn singing "Word Up" in my mind.  ("Wave your hands in the air like you don't care, glide by the people as they stop to look and stare...")

I hope that the next time I go to the Antiochian Church I don't have this problem and burst out laughing.

Usually in the Lord's Prayer I try to lift up my heart like the priest says to do in the preceding line.  The hand thing gets a little weird.  But like they say, it takes all kinds of people to make a boat float.

KORN?!  KORN?!?!

That song is first and foremost a CAMEO song. 

This is just as bad as people buying the sub-par Glee! covers of classic pop songs and referring to them as "that song from Glee!".

KORN?!?!

I will grant you the Ruductio ad Gleeum, but I still think the Korn version of the song was the better of the two.  Sometimes the remake is just better.  I present "I'm Not Knocking on Heaven's Door" as evidence.  I still agree with you that most of the songs performed on Glee have been abortions.  (Note, that I cannot comment on any new episodes of Glee.  I am single now, and still cling to shreds of heterosexuality so I have not seen that show in over a year.)

It is patently obvious that you are a demon.  Please go back to where you came from.  kthxbai.

[primuspilus]

The only korn that is interesting is in the bottom of the toilet when I've had none for a month.

PP

[vamrat]

I cannot pass by this thread without Korn singing "Word Up" in my mind.  ("Wave your hands in the air like you don't care, glide by the people as they stop to look and stare...")

I hope that the next time I go to the Antiochian Church I don't have this problem and burst out laughing.

Usually in the Lord's Prayer I try to lift up my heart like the priest says to do in the preceding line.  The hand thing gets a little weird.  But like they say, it takes all kinds of people to make a boat float.

KORN?!  KORN?!?!

That song is first and foremost a CAMEO song. 

This is just as bad as people buying the sub-par Glee! covers of classic pop songs and referring to them as "that song from Glee!".

KORN?!?!

I will grant you the Ruductio ad Gleeum, but I still think the Korn version of the song was the better of the two.  Sometimes the remake is just better.  I present "I'm Not Knocking on Heaven's Door" as evidence.  I still agree with you that most of the songs performed on Glee have been abortions.  (Note, that I cannot comment on any new episodes of Glee.  I am single now, and still cling to shreds of heterosexuality so I have not seen that show in over a year.)

It is patently obvious that you are a demon.  Please go back to where you came from.  kthxbai.

Kthxbai?  KTHXBAI!?!?   Arrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!!

[orthonorm]

The first half of the first season of Glee was tops.

Then the music and money began to trump story telling and it went to hell.

[Peter J]

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

Really? What then is the Orthodox *way* of holding one's arms at one's side, hands out?  Apparently your holy EO bodies must work differently than ours, since we're so influenced by Protestants. But then, we wouldn't be the first ones. After all...



Look at this Protestant, hanging out in the 2nd century catacombs in Rome. It's disgraceful!



Another early Protestant, St. Agnes. Thank goodness we don't have such people around us today, Protestanting up our churches with their examples of martyrdom and improper limb arrangement.



Not you too, Theotokos! Is there no one these Protestants can't get to with their Protestantly Protestant Protestantizing influences?!

Yes, the Pope of Rome ... no wait, I just remembered that the Popes have been "Protestant" since 1054. My bad.

[KShaft]

You've got to love Orthodox forums. Heck, we should label everyone we don't like as devil-worshippers.  

Get thee behind me papist!

Well he has to defend it seeing that there is charismatic Roman Catholics.  Most of the guys in who live on that mountain in Greece who dress in those big black hats and black night gown thingies would probably agree that they are demonic. Id imagine the same with those crazies that live in those "monasteries" in Russia, or even in Jordanville in New York of all places! would probably concur as well. Silly backward monks. Live in the now already...

[KShaft]

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

Really? What then is the Orthodox *way* of holding one's arms at one's side, hands out?  Apparently your holy EO bodies must work differently than ours, since we're so influenced by Protestants. But then, we wouldn't be the first ones. After all...



Look at this Protestant, hanging out in the 2nd century catacombs in Rome. It's disgraceful!



Another early Protestant, St. Agnes. Thank goodness we don't have such people around us today, Protestanting up our churches with their examples of martyrdom and improper limb arrangement.



Not you too, Theotokos! Is there no one these Protestants can't get to with their Protestantly Protestant Protestantizing influences?!

Yes, the Pope of Rome ... no wait, I just remembered that the Popes have been "Protestant" since 1054. My bad.

Well you should blame the Carolingians for that. Perhaps if they didnt institute the college of Cardinals as a form of a 'good ole boy' network,  then maybe laypersons of the church could have voted in a good one.

[Peter J]

You've got to love Orthodox forums. Heck, we should label everyone we don't like as devil-worshippers.  

Get thee behind me papist!

Well he has to defend it seeing that there is charismatic Roman Catholics.

There are, but there are also some RCs who are very strongly against the charismatic movement -- although I don't think even they would call it devil worship.

[Peter J]

With all due respect, Mina, it's possible that the *way* you do it is influenced by Protestants in Egypt.

Really? What then is the Orthodox *way* of holding one's arms at one's side, hands out?  Apparently your holy EO bodies must work differently than ours, since we're so influenced by Protestants. But then, we wouldn't be the first ones. After all...



Look at this Protestant, hanging out in the 2nd century catacombs in Rome. It's disgraceful!



Another early Protestant, St. Agnes. Thank goodness we don't have such people around us today, Protestanting up our churches with their examples of martyrdom and improper limb arrangement.



Not you too, Theotokos! Is there no one these Protestants can't get to with their Protestantly Protestant Protestantizing influences?!

Yes, the Pope of Rome ... no wait, I just remembered that the Popes have been "Protestant" since 1054. My bad.

Well you should blame the Carolingians for that. Perhaps if they didnt institute the college of Cardinals as a form of a 'good ole boy' network,  then maybe laypersons of the church could have voted in a good one.

Although I don't agree with the way Orthodox apply the label "Protestant" to everything they disagree with, I do see strong similarities between Protestants and the Carolingians: The Carolingians added the filioque to the creed without the Pope's authorization (even against his explicit instructions). Nowadays, of course, the Pope allows the insertion, but it seems clear that most Protestants would keep it even without his authorization.

[dzheremi]

Most Protestants would keep it because they inherited it from Rome and they don't know enough about Christian history to know that it isn't supposed to be there. Same with most RCs.

And I think it's a little bit of an understatement to say that the Roman Pope "allows" the insertion, as though he is tolerating something that should otherwise not be there. To my knowledge, it is not removable in any RC church that wants to remain in union with Rome. Heck, even the Eastern Catholics who do not say it are not allowed to preach against it...who knows why that is, but that's what they've told me. 

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