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Author Topic: Christianity doesn`t make sense to me anymore  (Read 5370 times) Average Rating: 0
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Aindriú
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 02:25:04 PM »

giving an unargumentated answer will not make one understand the answer. the concern of the topic is about understanding christianity not plain naked answers, of whom i have well awareness, but getting in the most deep details of things..

Instead of getting defensive, you could just state your objections and reservations with my responses.

The 'naked answers', by the way, are intended to make you think yourself through the problem, not for me to spoon feed you and play dance.
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 02:29:42 PM »

giving an unargumentated answer will not make one understand the answer. the concern of the topic is about understanding christianity not plain naked answers, of whom i have well awareness, but getting in the most deep details of things..

Instead of getting defensive, you could just state your objections and reservations with my responses.

The 'naked answers', by the way, are intended to make you think yourself through the problem, not for me to spoon feed you and play dance.

Or i can just ignore you, which i am going to do for now.
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2012, 02:49:04 PM »

Nice. Good luck!
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2012, 06:34:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

Yes.  Until God became Man, men could not become God.  That is basic Orthodox Soteriology 101.  The Incarnation Christ becomes our true kinsman in rational body, mind and soul, and what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  If the Divine Word can subsist through a human hypostasis, than so to can the Grace of God, hence theosis.  The why part is none of our business.  The how part is all we can concern ourselves with. However Azul, I can understand your frustrations.  Sometimes when "reasoning" with our fellow humans, be they Christian or otherwise,  we get discouraged, disillusioned even.  However, let is remember to stay in dialogue with God, and not get caught up in the details of other humans.  Further, always remember that even on OC.net, the internet is a human cesspool filled with all the garbage that preoccupies the human mind.  We can't judge God by the hubris of the human experience, that is our own fault.  In all actuality, the wrongs of our world are more evidence to the mercy and love of God than the rights. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2012, 08:00:51 PM »

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

These are all the wrong questions.  Theologians can and do, of course, reflect and argue about questions like these; but they are irrelevant to the life of faith.

The good news is very simple:  God has raised Jesus from the dead.  All Christian preaching is but a proclamation on why this is good news for sinners, on why this is good news for you and for me. 

If the Christian faith truly no longer makes sense to you, then you must go back to the beginning--you must re-read the New Testament, paying particular attention to all the references to the resurrection of Jesus, you must see how the resurrection of Jesus underlies everything that is said in the New Testament.  If Christianity still doesn't make sense, if you cannot truly believe in the resurrection of Christ, then that is as it is.  But don't worry yourself about the questions you have posed.  They are secondary.  Even if a brilliant theologian were to give you compelling answers, you would not find them compelling if you are not already convinced in the resurrection of Christ and understand why it is the best and most wondrous news ever spoken in the history of the human race. 

Jesus Christ is risen! 
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 11:31:48 AM »

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

These are all the wrong questions.  Theologians can and do, of course, reflect and argue about questions like these; but they are irrelevant to the life of faith.

The good news is very simple:  God has raised Jesus from the dead.  All Christian preaching is but a proclamation on why this is good news for sinners, on why this is good news for you and for me. 

If the Christian faith truly no longer makes sense to you, then you must go back to the beginning--you must re-read the New Testament, paying particular attention to all the references to the resurrection of Jesus, you must see how the resurrection of Jesus underlies everything that is said in the New Testament.  If Christianity still doesn't make sense, if you cannot truly believe in the resurrection of Christ, then that is as it is.  But don't worry yourself about the questions you have posed.  They are secondary.  Even if a brilliant theologian were to give you compelling answers, you would not find them compelling if you are not already convinced in the resurrection of Christ and understand why it is the best and most wondrous news ever spoken in the history of the human race. 

Jesus Christ is risen! 

On the contrary this kind of question are very important to the life of faith.They are very important to those who want to consciensly believe.. Those who never asked this kind of questions are not that preocupated with what they believe.. I can even swear that Christianity in your form does not make sense to any reasonable person on the face of the planet.I think that if we figure out christianity consciensly and reasonable we find the real purpose of man and the relationship of God and man.The real Christological problem is how can God be a man and why, how did he save us and how does his salvation corresponds with others?Than how was Jesus man and God at the same time?And other questions like that.

God raised Jesus from the death is the good news.. Great according to the same book the bible God raised the son of the widower through Elijah, and the dead man through the bones of Elias and others and others and other deads before Jesus.. What`s so great to that?..If Jesus' salvation was our salvation from Hades and eternal hell than we have a not so benelovent God after all.. You see this kind of questions are crucial for the life of faith and the most important.. They are very important to know what kind of God we are serving..

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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 11:36:01 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

Yes.  Until God became Man, men could not become God.  That is basic Orthodox Soteriology 101.  The Incarnation Christ becomes our true kinsman in rational body, mind and soul, and what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  If the Divine Word can subsist through a human hypostasis, than so to can the Grace of God, hence theosis.  The why part is none of our business.  The how part is all we can concern ourselves with. However Azul, I can understand your frustrations.  Sometimes when "reasoning" with our fellow humans, be they Christian or otherwise,  we get discouraged, disillusioned even.  However, let is remember to stay in dialogue with God, and not get caught up in the details of other humans.  Further, always remember that even on OC.net, the internet is a human cesspool filled with all the garbage that preoccupies the human mind.  We can't judge God by the hubris of the human experience, that is our own fault.  In all actuality, the wrongs of our world are more evidence to the mercy and love of God than the rights. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie

yeth you realize that even in this is a logical fallacy... Jesus had only one human body and this human body he had glorified and in this he resurrected.This body in which he was born he made it theosis, the question is how do we and the rest that came after him become theosis.. this ecuation is a logical fallacy like many unrumegated christian ecuations.

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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 11:59:21 AM »

Um, beg pardon, but what is an "unrumegated ecuation"?

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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 12:08:56 PM »

Um, beg pardon, but what is an "unrumegated ecuation"?

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Youse got gaps inyer edgimucashon?  Grin  Ain't theys got dentists fer that??
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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 12:38:30 PM »

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

These are all the wrong questions.  Theologians can and do, of course, reflect and argue about questions like these; but they are irrelevant to the life of faith.

The good news is very simple:  God has raised Jesus from the dead.  All Christian preaching is but a proclamation on why this is good news for sinners, on why this is good news for you and for me. 

If the Christian faith truly no longer makes sense to you, then you must go back to the beginning--you must re-read the New Testament, paying particular attention to all the references to the resurrection of Jesus, you must see how the resurrection of Jesus underlies everything that is said in the New Testament.  If Christianity still doesn't make sense, if you cannot truly believe in the resurrection of Christ, then that is as it is.  But don't worry yourself about the questions you have posed.  They are secondary.  Even if a brilliant theologian were to give you compelling answers, you would not find them compelling if you are not already convinced in the resurrection of Christ and understand why it is the best and most wondrous news ever spoken in the history of the human race. 

Jesus Christ is risen! 

On the contrary this kind of question are very important to the life of faith.They are very important to those who want to consciensly believe.. Those who never asked this kind of questions are not that preocupated with what they believe.. I can even swear that Christianity in your form does not make sense to any reasonable person on the face of the planet.I think that if we figure out christianity consciensly and reasonable we find the real purpose of man and the relationship of God and man.The real Christological problem is how can God be a man and why, how did he save us and how does his salvation corresponds with others?Than how was Jesus man and God at the same time?And other questions like that.

With all respect, Azul, you are coming at this completely wrong.  I do not doubt that you think that if only you could get a convincing answer to these two questions (and to all the others that you have) perhaps the Christian faith would begin to make sense.  But that is not the case.  You have already stepped outside the hermeneutical circle of faith and assumed a rationalistic perspective.

Do you think that the apostolic believers even asked these kinds of questions? And even if they did, do you think they actually had answers for them?  No and no.

As I said, you must begin with the apostolic proclamation:  Christ is risen!

Quote
God raised Jesus from the death is the good news.. Great according to the same book the bible God raised the son of the widower through Elijah, and the dead man through the bones of Elias and others and others and other deads before Jesus.. What`s so great to that?..If Jesus' salvation was our salvation from Hades and eternal hell than we have a not so benelovent God after all.. You see this kind of questions are crucial for the life of faith and the most important.. They are very important to know what kind of God we are serving..

Knowing the difference between the raising of the daughter of Jairus and the raising of Jesus is of course the whole point.  Theories of theosis, atonement, the fall, the union of human and divine nature in one divine hypostasis, etc., etc.--these are all second-order reflections grounded upon the primary confession of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is the gospel that converts and transforms the lives of broken sinners, not theological theories. 

Who is the God we serve?  Precisely the God who raised Jesus from the dead! 
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 03:07:10 PM »

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

These are all the wrong questions.  Theologians can and do, of course, reflect and argue about questions like these; but they are irrelevant to the life of faith.

The good news is very simple:  God has raised Jesus from the dead.  All Christian preaching is but a proclamation on why this is good news for sinners, on why this is good news for you and for me. 

If the Christian faith truly no longer makes sense to you, then you must go back to the beginning--you must re-read the New Testament, paying particular attention to all the references to the resurrection of Jesus, you must see how the resurrection of Jesus underlies everything that is said in the New Testament.  If Christianity still doesn't make sense, if you cannot truly believe in the resurrection of Christ, then that is as it is.  But don't worry yourself about the questions you have posed.  They are secondary.  Even if a brilliant theologian were to give you compelling answers, you would not find them compelling if you are not already convinced in the resurrection of Christ and understand why it is the best and most wondrous news ever spoken in the history of the human race. 

Jesus Christ is risen! 

On the contrary this kind of question are very important to the life of faith.They are very important to those who want to consciensly believe.. Those who never asked this kind of questions are not that preocupated with what they believe.. I can even swear that Christianity in your form does not make sense to any reasonable person on the face of the planet.I think that if we figure out christianity consciensly and reasonable we find the real purpose of man and the relationship of God and man.The real Christological problem is how can God be a man and why, how did he save us and how does his salvation corresponds with others?Than how was Jesus man and God at the same time?And other questions like that.

With all respect, Azul, you are coming at this completely wrong.  I do not doubt that you think that if only you could get a convincing answer to these two questions (and to all the others that you have) perhaps the Christian faith would begin to make sense.  But that is not the case.  You have already stepped outside the hermeneutical circle of faith and assumed a rationalistic perspective.

Do you think that the apostolic believers even asked these kinds of questions? And even if they did, do you think they actually had answers for them?  No and no.

As I said, you must begin with the apostolic proclamation:  Christ is risen!

Quote
God raised Jesus from the death is the good news.. Great according to the same book the bible God raised the son of the widower through Elijah, and the dead man through the bones of Elias and others and others and other deads before Jesus.. What`s so great to that?..If Jesus' salvation was our salvation from Hades and eternal hell than we have a not so benelovent God after all.. You see this kind of questions are crucial for the life of faith and the most important.. They are very important to know what kind of God we are serving..

Knowing the difference between the raising of the daughter of Jairus and the raising of Jesus is of course the whole point.  Theories of theosis, atonement, the fall, the union of human and divine nature in one divine hypostasis, etc., etc.--these are all second-order reflections grounded upon the primary confession of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is the gospel that converts and transforms the lives of broken sinners, not theological theories. 

Who is the God we serve?  Precisely the God who raised Jesus from the dead! 


the god who made everyone a sinner and bound them to hades till the coming of Christ.. a vain narcisistic God to say the least?

yes i do believe the apostles have these kind of questions themselves.

no, you are coming at it wrong... blind faith is not faith at all if you ask me.. 

the resurrection of Jesus means nothing.. the christian mythology is not the first nor the last to have a resurrected god, god-man, so  what makes it so special?If the christian God is as antropomorphic and passionate as other pagans gods what makes us say that the christian god is not pagan itself?
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »

Um, beg pardon, but what is an "unrumegated ecuation"?

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unrumegated = as not thought upon much or reasoned enough..

ecuation = ecuation..
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 03:17:17 PM »

Um, beg pardon, but what is an "unrumegated ecuation"?

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unrumegated = as not thought upon much or reasoned enough..

ecuation = ecuation..

Yeah, but in what language?  I did a Google search for those words and nothing came up in English.  Care to enlighten us?  Closest I could find to "ecuation" was "equation".  Somehow I don't think that's what you mean.
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 03:34:35 PM »

the real questions are :

1)Was theosis unnatainable before the Incarnation of Jesus?

the truth is in the details:

1)How did Jesus really did it for us, why, etc?

These are all the wrong questions.  Theologians can and do, of course, reflect and argue about questions like these; but they are irrelevant to the life of faith.

The good news is very simple:  God has raised Jesus from the dead.  All Christian preaching is but a proclamation on why this is good news for sinners, on why this is good news for you and for me. 

If the Christian faith truly no longer makes sense to you, then you must go back to the beginning--you must re-read the New Testament, paying particular attention to all the references to the resurrection of Jesus, you must see how the resurrection of Jesus underlies everything that is said in the New Testament.  If Christianity still doesn't make sense, if you cannot truly believe in the resurrection of Christ, then that is as it is.  But don't worry yourself about the questions you have posed.  They are secondary.  Even if a brilliant theologian were to give you compelling answers, you would not find them compelling if you are not already convinced in the resurrection of Christ and understand why it is the best and most wondrous news ever spoken in the history of the human race. 

Jesus Christ is risen! 

On the contrary this kind of question are very important to the life of faith.They are very important to those who want to consciensly believe.. Those who never asked this kind of questions are not that preocupated with what they believe.. I can even swear that Christianity in your form does not make sense to any reasonable person on the face of the planet.I think that if we figure out christianity consciensly and reasonable we find the real purpose of man and the relationship of God and man.The real Christological problem is how can God be a man and why, how did he save us and how does his salvation corresponds with others?Than how was Jesus man and God at the same time?And other questions like that.

With all respect, Azul, you are coming at this completely wrong.  I do not doubt that you think that if only you could get a convincing answer to these two questions (and to all the others that you have) perhaps the Christian faith would begin to make sense.  But that is not the case.  You have already stepped outside the hermeneutical circle of faith and assumed a rationalistic perspective.

Do you think that the apostolic believers even asked these kinds of questions? And even if they did, do you think they actually had answers for them?  No and no.

As I said, you must begin with the apostolic proclamation:  Christ is risen!

Quote
God raised Jesus from the death is the good news.. Great according to the same book the bible God raised the son of the widower through Elijah, and the dead man through the bones of Elias and others and others and other deads before Jesus.. What`s so great to that?..If Jesus' salvation was our salvation from Hades and eternal hell than we have a not so benelovent God after all.. You see this kind of questions are crucial for the life of faith and the most important.. They are very important to know what kind of God we are serving..

Knowing the difference between the raising of the daughter of Jairus and the raising of Jesus is of course the whole point.  Theories of theosis, atonement, the fall, the union of human and divine nature in one divine hypostasis, etc., etc.--these are all second-order reflections grounded upon the primary confession of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is the gospel that converts and transforms the lives of broken sinners, not theological theories. 

Who is the God we serve?  Precisely the God who raised Jesus from the dead! 


the god who made everyone a sinner and bound them to hades till the coming of Christ.. a vain narcisistic God to say the least?

yes i do believe the apostles have these kind of questions themselves.

no, you are coming at it wrong... blind faith is not faith at all if you ask me.. 

the resurrection of Jesus means nothing.. the christian mythology is not the first nor the last to have a resurrected god, god-man, so  what makes it so special?If the christian God is as antropomorphic and passionate as other pagans gods what makes us say that the christian god is not pagan itself?

Wow.  I've argued with priests before about a number of things but rarely if ever have I had the temerity to tell them "you are coming at it wrong..."  But that's just me.

At least twice that I know of you've referred to "blind faith" and it not being faith at all--so, I ask you once again,  who said anything at all about "blind" faith?



But maybe you're referring to *this* Blind Faith:

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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 05:22:46 PM »

the resurrection of Jesus means nothing.. the christian mythology is not the first nor the last to have a resurrected god, god-man, so  what makes it so special?If the christian God is as antropomorphic and passionate as other pagans gods what makes us say that the christian god is not pagan itself?

And that is why the Orthodox faith, or indeed any Christian faith, does not make sense to you. 

I honestly do not know if you are even willing to re-examine the claims for the truth of the resurrection, but the book with which to begin is N. T. Wright's magisterial opus The Resurrection of the Son of God

There is no point for me or any one else on this forum to try to engage all of your other "questions."  They are, as I said, beside the point.  The resurrection of Christ, which has both temporal and transcendent dimensions, is the entry point into the Christian faith.  Strong historical evidence can be offered to support this claim, but ultimately it can only be received in faith.  As the great Reformed theologian Thomas F. Torrance writes:
Quote
It is essentially in this way that the incarnation and the resurrection of Jesus Christ came to be accepted by the early Church and classical Christian theology: they forced themselves upon the minds of Christians from their own empirical and theoretical ground in sharp antithesis to what they had believed about God and in genuine conflict with the framework of secular thought or the world view of their age. That God himself had become man was an offence to the Jew and folly to the Greek; that Jesus Christ rose from the dead was deemed to be utterly incredible. Yet the incarnation and resurrection forced themselves upon the mind of the Church against the grain of people's convictions, as ultimate events bearing their own intrinsic but shattering claims in the self-evidencing reality and transcendent rationality of God himself, and they took root within the Church only through a seismic restructuring of religious and intellectual belief. In the life of Jesus Christ an objective self-disclosure of God in Word and Act had taken place within the structure of the world which was discerned to be of a final and decisive nature, commanding commitment in the response of faith, in which Jesus Christ himself constituted the central point of focus in an exclusive relation with God the Father. (Space, Time and Resurrection, pp. 17-18)

If this sounds irrational, then that is only because you are presently operating within a empiricist worldview.  Even science operates on axioms and preconceived beliefs that cannot be proven.  See Michael Polanyi, Personal Knowledge.   Interestingly, I participated in a discussion thread over at Monachos  on "Belief" that touches on many of these epistemological issues.  I probably do not have much more to offer than what I stated there.

The bottomline:  The bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is everything.  As the Apostle declares, "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins (1 Cor 15:17).
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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 07:31:24 PM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 09:46:27 AM »

the resurrection of Jesus means nothing.. the christian mythology is not the first nor the last to have a resurrected god, god-man, so  what makes it so special?If the christian God is as antropomorphic and passionate as other pagans gods what makes us say that the christian god is not pagan itself?

And that is why the Orthodox faith, or indeed any Christian faith, does not make sense to you. 

I honestly do not know if you are even willing to re-examine the claims for the truth of the resurrection, but the book with which to begin is N. T. Wright's magisterial opus The Resurrection of the Son of God

There is no point for me or any one else on this forum to try to engage all of your other "questions."  They are, as I said, beside the point.  The resurrection of Christ, which has both temporal and transcendent dimensions, is the entry point into the Christian faith.  Strong historical evidence can be offered to support this claim, but ultimately it can only be received in faith.  As the great Reformed theologian Thomas F. Torrance writes:
Quote
It is essentially in this way that the incarnation and the resurrection of Jesus Christ came to be accepted by the early Church and classical Christian theology: they forced themselves upon the minds of Christians from their own empirical and theoretical ground in sharp antithesis to what they had believed about God and in genuine conflict with the framework of secular thought or the world view of their age. That God himself had become man was an offence to the Jew and folly to the Greek; that Jesus Christ rose from the dead was deemed to be utterly incredible. Yet the incarnation and resurrection forced themselves upon the mind of the Church against the grain of people's convictions, as ultimate events bearing their own intrinsic but shattering claims in the self-evidencing reality and transcendent rationality of God himself, and they took root within the Church only through a seismic restructuring of religious and intellectual belief. In the life of Jesus Christ an objective self-disclosure of God in Word and Act had taken place within the structure of the world which was discerned to be of a final and decisive nature, commanding commitment in the response of faith, in which Jesus Christ himself constituted the central point of focus in an exclusive relation with God the Father. (Space, Time and Resurrection, pp. 17-18)

If this sounds irrational, then that is only because you are presently operating within a empiricist worldview.  Even science operates on axioms and preconceived beliefs that cannot be proven.  See Michael Polanyi, Personal Knowledge.   Interestingly, I participated in a discussion thread over at Monachos  on "Belief" that touches on many of these epistemological issues.  I probably do not have much more to offer than what I stated there.

The bottomline:  The bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is everything.  As the Apostle declares, "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins (1 Cor 15:17).

a simple 'i don`t know' would have done it instead of wasting my time.
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 09:49:40 AM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

When you're right, your right. To wit--

a simple 'i don`t know' would have done it instead of wasting my time.
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2012, 09:55:56 AM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

Yes he is.The ignorant arrogance of the priests in this forum is outstanding and impious.. They show themselves unworthy of this call.In this old Orthodox country where i am at we snip this type of priests miles away.The sad news is the majority of priests are like this.
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2012, 10:28:34 AM »

If priests must be morally, or, as you seem to have it, epistemologically spotless in order to be "worthy" of the call, then we are all screwed, quite frankly. Thanks be to the true God, however, He calls not the worthy, but the unworthy. Remember Moses and his whole "God, I am not eloquent" bit? Yeah...that.
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2012, 10:44:43 AM »

If priests must be morally, or, as you seem to have it, epistemologically spotless in order to be "worthy" of the call, then we are all screwed, quite frankly. Thanks be to the true God, however, He calls not the worthy, but the unworthy. Remember Moses and his whole "God, I am not eloquent" bit? Yeah...that.

A priest should not troll.One must prepare his butt to get kicked a lot and suffer a lot of judgements if he wants to become a priest.They are not made for this, if they don`t.Priesthood is not a job is a vocation.

A priest who claims to have the all ultimate truth must show it through actions (concrete things) not empty fruitless words.A priest must always be practical, if he can`t face a situation than admit his impotence.

A priest who claims to be better than an "atheist" or an "hindus" must show it through actions (concrete things) and not empty and bickering words.Actions speak louder than words..

Yes you clergy are the least of people as saint Paul said...



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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2012, 10:56:19 AM »

If priests must be morally, or, as you seem to have it, epistemologically spotless in order to be "worthy" of the call, then we are all screwed, quite frankly. Thanks be to the true God, however, He calls not the worthy, but the unworthy. Remember Moses and his whole "God, I am not eloquent" bit? Yeah...that.

+1
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2012, 11:00:56 AM »

If priests must be morally, or, as you seem to have it, epistemologically spotless in order to be "worthy" of the call, then we are all screwed, quite frankly. Thanks be to the true God, however, He calls not the worthy, but the unworthy. Remember Moses and his whole "God, I am not eloquent" bit? Yeah...that.

A priest should not troll.One must prepare his ass to get kicked a lot and suffer a lot of judgements if he wants to become a priest.They are not made for this, if they don`t.Priesthood is not a job is a vocation.

A priest who claims to have the all ultimate truth must show it through actions (concrete things) not empty fruitless words.A priest must always be practical, if he can`t face a situation than admit his impotence.

A priest who claims to be better than an "atheist" or an "hindus" must show it through actions (concrete things) and not empty and bickering words.Actions speak louder than words..

Yes you clergy are the least of people as saint Paul said...

Oh no you didn't!
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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2012, 11:09:36 AM »

If priests must be morally, or, as you seem to have it, epistemologically spotless in order to be "worthy" of the call, then we are all screwed, quite frankly. Thanks be to the true God, however, He calls not the worthy, but the unworthy. Remember Moses and his whole "God, I am not eloquent" bit? Yeah...that.

A priest should not troll.One must prepare his ass to get kicked a lot and suffer a lot of judgements if he wants to become a priest.They are not made for this, if they don`t.Priesthood is not a job is a vocation.

A priest who claims to have the all ultimate truth must show it through actions (concrete things) not empty fruitless words.A priest must always be practical, if he can`t face a situation than admit his impotence.

A priest who claims to be better than an "atheist" or an "hindus" must show it through actions (concrete things) and not empty and bickering words.Actions speak louder than words..

Yes you clergy are the least of people as saint Paul said...

And I guess you're just the guy to kick some priest ass and pronounce judgment upon them, eh? 

Where on this board (cite examples, please) are priests "trolling" and claiming to be better than atheists or hindus?
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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2012, 11:14:21 AM »

Forgive me.  I appear to have offended Azul and others.  That was not my intent.  Nor was it my intent to come off as someone who has all the answers.  Quite the contrary.  I have very few answers.  I have studied theology long enough and deeply enough to know that theologians have very few real answers.

All I know is this:  the gospel is the resurrection of Jesus.  Everything begins with this claim, everything flows from this claim, everything ends in this claim.  If someone is inquiring about the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone is trying to hold on to the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone has lost the Christian faith and says he no longer understands it, I point them to the resurrection.  

The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the absolute heart of the Church.  If it is not true, then we may as well be atheists, for I have no interest in any other god.  I do not say it is easy to believe in the resurrection.  I know I cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  Ultimately, I believe it because all the other alternatives lead only to despair and death.  Believe me when I say this.

I will now withdraw from the conversation.  God bless you all.
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2012, 11:55:52 AM »

Forgive me.  I appear to have offended Azul and others.  That was not my intent.  Nor was it my intent to come off as someone who has all the answers.  Quite the contrary.  I have very few answers.  I have studied theology long enough and deeply enough to know that theologians have very few real answers.

All I know is this:  the gospel is the resurrection of Jesus.  Everything begins with this claim, everything flows from this claim, everything ends in this claim.  If someone is inquiring about the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone is trying to hold on to the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone has lost the Christian faith and says he no longer understands it, I point them to the resurrection.  

The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the absolute heart of the Church.  If it is not true, then we may as well be atheists, for I have no interest in any other god.  I do not say it is easy to believe in the resurrection.  I know I cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  Ultimately, I believe it because all the other alternatives lead only to despair and death.  Believe me when I say this.

I will now withdraw from the conversation.  God bless you all.

Sorry to see you bow out from this conversation, Father, and thank you for your blessing.  I don't, however, think you "offended" anyone, not even Azul.  Azul seems to have it in for priests and as dzeremhi pointed out seems to need to be "right" rather than anything else.  I have a feeling that no matter what you said in response to him you were always going to be "wrong" in his (?)  eyes.  Nothing you could have said would have satisfied him or answered his questions because, imo, he doesn't *want* satisfaction and doesn't *want* sincere answers to his questions.  If there was any "trolling" going on, it was from him.

May God bless you, too, Father.

JM
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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2012, 02:18:45 PM »

Forgive me.  I appear to have offended Azul and others.  That was not my intent.  Nor was it my intent to come off as someone who has all the answers.  Quite the contrary.  I have very few answers.  I have studied theology long enough and deeply enough to know that theologians have very few real answers.

All I know is this:  the gospel is the resurrection of Jesus.  Everything begins with this claim, everything flows from this claim, everything ends in this claim.  If someone is inquiring about the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone is trying to hold on to the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone has lost the Christian faith and says he no longer understands it, I point them to the resurrection.  

The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the absolute heart of the Church.  If it is not true, then we may as well be atheists, for I have no interest in any other god.  I do not say it is easy to believe in the resurrection.  I know I cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  Ultimately, I believe it because all the other alternatives lead only to despair and death.  Believe me when I say this.

I will now withdraw from the conversation.  God bless you all.

And still you haven`t provided anything I asked.You did not adress any one of the questions that were adressed to you.I am not interested in your preaching and prosyletism or anyone's else for that matter.Just answer direct questions directly.

I have a reminder for all those grumbling in this forum "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15] "

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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2012, 02:37:02 PM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

Yes he is.The ignorant arrogance of the priests in this forum is outstanding and impious.. They show themselves unworthy of this call.In this old Orthodox country where i am at we snip this type of priests miles away.The sad news is the majority of priests are like this.

From my reading of this thread, Fr. Al gave you at least three sources to actually read and digest.  Have you done any of that?  Do you really, truly think someone is going to be able to explain Christianity to you on a messageboard?

If you insist on your own arrogant, lazy behavior, you're not going to learn anything at all in life, let alone from an internet messageboard.

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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2012, 02:43:08 PM »

Forgive me.  I appear to have offended Azul and others.  That was not my intent.  Nor was it my intent to come off as someone who has all the answers.  Quite the contrary.  I have very few answers.  I have studied theology long enough and deeply enough to know that theologians have very few real answers.

All I know is this:  the gospel is the resurrection of Jesus.  Everything begins with this claim, everything flows from this claim, everything ends in this claim.  If someone is inquiring about the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone is trying to hold on to the Christian faith, I point them to the resurrection.  If someone has lost the Christian faith and says he no longer understands it, I point them to the resurrection.  

The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the absolute heart of the Church.  If it is not true, then we may as well be atheists, for I have no interest in any other god.  I do not say it is easy to believe in the resurrection.  I know I cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  Ultimately, I believe it because all the other alternatives lead only to despair and death.  Believe me when I say this.

I will now withdraw from the conversation.  God bless you all.

And still you haven`t provided anything I asked.You did not adress any one of the questions that were adressed to you.I am not interested in your preaching and prosyletism or anyone's else for that matter.Just answer direct questions directly.

I have a reminder for all those grumbling in this forum "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15] "



Fr. Al gave you answers and sources for further research.  I have a reminder for *you*--don't ask questions if you're not prepared to hear the answers.  Just because you don't like what he said or how he answered your questions does *not* mean he didn't address them. 

And it seems to me that there have been questions asked of you here that you have completely ignored.  Somewhere off in the distance I hear a pot calling a kettle "black".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2012, 02:48:10 PM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

Yes he is.The ignorant arrogance of the priests in this forum is outstanding and impious.. They show themselves unworthy of this call.In this old Orthodox country where i am at we snip this type of priests miles away.The sad news is the majority of priests are like this.

 Do you really, truly think someone is going to be able to explain Christianity to you on a messageboard?





ABSOLUTELY everyone that understands it.And anyone who professes himself to be a Christian should be able "always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15] "
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2012, 02:51:16 PM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

Yes he is.The ignorant arrogance of the priests in this forum is outstanding and impious.. They show themselves unworthy of this call.In this old Orthodox country where i am at we snip this type of priests miles away.The sad news is the majority of priests are like this.

 Do you really, truly think someone is going to be able to explain Christianity to you on a messageboard?





ABSOLUTELY everyone that understands it.And anyone who professes himself to be a Christian should be able "always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15] "

So we're bad Christians.  Sue us.  Which one of us has said we're paragons of virtue?  None of us (well, hopefully none of us). 

I once read a story about a monk who, while walking through a town, was accosted by the local atheist who berated the monk with questions such as yours.  The monk, knowing that his interlocutor wasn't really interested in learning about the Faith, merely said, "No," and walked away.

So. 

"No."
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »

Something tells me, Father, that he will ignore you soon, as he cares more about his pride and 'being right' than understanding, or even entertaining answers.

Yes he is.The ignorant arrogance of the priests in this forum is outstanding and impious.. They show themselves unworthy of this call.In this old Orthodox country where i am at we snip this type of priests miles away.The sad news is the majority of priests are like this.

 Do you really, truly think someone is going to be able to explain Christianity to you on a messageboard?





ABSOLUTELY everyone that understands it.And anyone who professes himself to be a Christian should be able "always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15] "

So we're bad Christians.  Sue us.  Which one of us has said we're paragons of virtue?  None of us (well, hopefully none of us). 

I once read a story about a monk who, while walking through a town, was accosted by the local atheist who berated the monk with questions such as yours.  The monk, knowing that his interlocutor wasn't really interested in learning about the Faith, merely said, "No," and walked away.

So. 

"No."

Than stop acting like it.

Stories are just... stories.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2012, 02:58:42 PM »

P.S You(pl) are no more of a Christian than an "Atheists" .. At least this Atheists(Agnostics,etc) are sincere with whom they are..
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2012, 03:06:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Yes.. Original Sin, why did Jesus came?


Ancestral Sin...



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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2012, 03:08:38 PM »

Azul, I commend to you Paul Evdokimov's book The Struggle with God.

Bless, Fr.  Thanks so much for this link!
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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2012, 03:15:01 PM »

P.S You(pl) are no more of a Christian than an "Atheists" .. At least this Atheists(Agnostics,etc) are sincere with whom they are..

What are you talking about?

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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2012, 03:19:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Yes.. Original Sin, why did Jesus came?


Ancestral Sin...





stay blessed,
habte selassie
Neither Christianity nor Ancestral Sin is "gangsta", dumb dumb.  Find a more appropriate picture to scold me.



That was so obvious a light hearted joke, about you're crossing out Original Sin, that I am quite sorry you didn't get it Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2012, 03:21:59 PM »

P.S You(pl) are no more of a Christian than an "Atheists" .. At least this Atheists(Agnostics,etc) are sincere with whom they are..

What are you talking about?



He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities.  You know what "they" say:
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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2012, 03:26:23 PM »

He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities. 

If true, there are better options than using the forum. For example...  angel

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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2012, 03:30:26 PM »

He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities. 

If true, there are better options than using the forum. For example...  angel



(Can't view youtube on this computer  Sad Sad)

You're right, but....he's *here*, and the more he gets fed, the more poop there is to clean up. 
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2012, 03:50:55 PM »

i`m saying enough with this off-topics and let's get back to the subject.

1.How can God be, become a man?What does Jesus' Incarnation entail.. What precisely did it got Incarnated?The wholeness of God?His entire Being?

2.Why did Jesus came?If theosis was unattainable before his coming and if heaven was unattainable before his coming than we have a God that deprived us of something.And if an constient abode of the dead existed and all people went into Hades, than we have an angry, narcissistic , not so just and not so loving God.. What kind of God is so angry on humanity that makes us all to suffer for the sin of one?And if he was not angry than he was vain and narcisistic emprisoning souls into hades just to show Himself mercifull and a great redeemer.. But maybe it's not that maybe heaven was attainable even before the coming of Jesus.So the question than is what is the point of his coming, if heaven was attainable?How really does his coming makes people more heavenlike?

3.How really does Jesus save us?Save us from what exactly?! What does his Salvation entail?What does it mean?How does he save all men, taking in consideration that he became and was only one man.One man died on the cross, one man resurrected and one man ascended into glory.How does all this pass to us?It is still God's doing no?So all this infliction of Jesus was unecessary than.Because it is God who makes all these things to us because of Jesus.But Jesus was not a necessity God could always do those things to us.. Jesus was not a necessity unless He needed to appease God's something.. God's offended justice, God's anger, etc.. But what if there is something else to it?

For all those arguing against reason remmeber that God is Logos(Reason in Greek) and Jesus is Logos per John 1.And this thread is not for you.Adress my points dirrectly or be ignored.


You are being warned for 99 days for violating the rule on respecting other posters. It is one thing to disagree, it is another to resorting to foul language (in Reply 65), to use ad hominem (Reply 77) and now demanding your responders to answer your questions precisely as you wish them answered: "Adress my points dirrectly or be ignored." All of these instances betray a deep disrespect of your respondents. This forum is not your soap box and if you continue on your present path, I will have no choice but to put you on moderation. Second Chance
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:13:20 AM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2012, 03:52:40 PM »

He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities. 

If true, there are better options than using the forum. For example...  angel



don`t get your perception of reality from the fountain of illusion, cyborgs and gossip.
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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2012, 04:38:41 PM »

He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities.  

If true, there are better options than using the forum. For example...  angel



don`t get your perception of reality from the fountain of illusion, cyborgs and gossip.

Azul,

Let's take this up in an unsystematic manner later. I don't blame your response given the comments here.

You'll either be further confused in your conviction or further convicted in your confusion when we are finished.

Either way. It is win.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:38:54 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2012, 04:46:08 PM »

He's just spewing, er...venting.  I'm sure he really has no idea what he's talking about.  Almost every time anyone asks for clarification they are either ignored or get an answer which only compounds the confusion.  He just wants to spew, er...vent and we've given him lots of opportunities.  

If true, there are better options than using the forum. For example...  angel



don`t get your perception of reality from the fountain of illusion, cyborgs and gossip.

Azul,

Let's take this up in an unsystematic manner later. I don't blame your response given the comments here.

You'll either be further confused in your conviction or further convicted in your confusion when we are finished.

Either way. It is win.






Or, if you prefer:

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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2012, 05:05:31 PM »

At least this Atheists(Agnostics,etc) are sincere with whom they are..

Well, most are sincere and honest, except for the ones that deceptively list their faith as orthodox. 
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