Author Topic: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?  (Read 3724 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,046
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2012, 11:09:52 AM »
Quote
"Doing the liturgy differently" is something of a misnomer
I was conveying the feelings of some other folks. Sorry for the inaccuracy.

Quote
s WRO struggles to establish its rubrics, I suspect that some form of uniformity will come out of these efforts as well
I agree. No matter what it looks like. I love the Liturgy of St. Tikhon but if it meant doing another instead to promote uniformity, I'd be down with it.

Quote
That would be the reverse of 'latinizing' however
Easternizing I s'pose.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2012, 11:44:02 AM »
"Doing the liturgy differently" is something of a misnomer. Certainly there are superficial differences in the rubrics which developed in different national churches over the passage of many centuries. Likewise, the modality of rubrics are different within the national churches today from various points in history. What you saw in Hagia Sophia in the 11th century might not be completely familiar to a modern eye or ear, but it would likely resonate with some sense of 'sameness.'  The same can be said if you attended liturgy at a Serbian or Antiochian or any other American jurisdiction. The differences from the olden days would be far greater than the external differences among our jurisdictions.

What you will not find within Orthodoxy is the range of differentiation in the liturgy which you may find within the Roman Church - ranging from a rapidly recited 'low mass' to a guitar mass 'novus ordus' to a Tridentine High Mass and any and all variations in between them.

As WRO struggles to establish its rubrics, I suspect that some form of uniformity will come out of these efforts as well. Perhaps the concept of a 'reverse uniatism'  might be not serve as a direct analogy, but there are some Orthodox who might seek to impose Eastern liturgical norms that were not 'regular' in the west prior to the schism in an effort to make the WRO appear 'more Orthodox' to our eyes and ears. That would be the reverse of 'latinizing' however....

I think I pretty much understand, and am in agreement with, what you are saying except for your use of the word "reverse". Even if WRO were "uniatism" (and I believe I share your skepticism about the possibility that it is) I don't understand why anyone would call it "reverse uniatism". That's like saying that if I punch you it's "reverse punch" because a "punch" would be if you punch me.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,046
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2012, 11:46:35 AM »
Quote
I think I pretty much understand, and am in agreement with, what you are saying except for your use of the word "reverse". Even if WRO were "uniatism" (and I believe I share your skepticism about the possibility that it is) I don't understand why anyone would call it "reverse uniatism". That's like saying that if I punch you it's "reverse punch" because a "punch" would be if you punch me
So, uniatism by any other name smells just as uniatist?

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,552
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2012, 11:47:34 AM »
"Doing the liturgy differently" is something of a misnomer. Certainly there are superficial differences in the rubrics which developed in different national churches over the passage of many centuries. Likewise, the modality of rubrics are different within the national churches today from various points in history. What you saw in Hagia Sophia in the 11th century might not be completely familiar to a modern eye or ear, but it would likely resonate with some sense of 'sameness.'  The same can be said if you attended liturgy at a Serbian or Antiochian or any other American jurisdiction. The differences from the olden days would be far greater than the external differences among our jurisdictions.

What you will not find within Orthodoxy is the range of differentiation in the liturgy which you may find within the Roman Church - ranging from a rapidly recited 'low mass' to a guitar mass 'novus ordus' to a Tridentine High Mass and any and all variations in between them.

As WRO struggles to establish its rubrics, I suspect that some form of uniformity will come out of these efforts as well. Perhaps the concept of a 'reverse uniatism'  might be not serve as a direct analogy, but there are some Orthodox who might seek to impose Eastern liturgical norms that were not 'regular' in the west prior to the schism in an effort to make the WRO appear 'more Orthodox' to our eyes and ears. That would be the reverse of 'latinizing' however....

I think I pretty much understand, and am in agreement with, what you are saying except for your use of the word "reverse". Even if WRO were "uniatism" (and I believe I share your skepticism about the possibility that it is) I don't understand why anyone would call it "reverse uniatism". That's like saying that if I punch you it's "reverse punch" because a "punch" would be if you punch me.

This is all getting far too esoteric for me.   ;D
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2012, 11:53:54 AM »
Quote
I think I pretty much understand, and am in agreement with, what you are saying except for your use of the word "reverse". Even if WRO were "uniatism" (and I believe I share your skepticism about the possibility that it is) I don't understand why anyone would call it "reverse uniatism". That's like saying that if I punch you it's "reverse punch" because a "punch" would be if you punch me
So, uniatism by any other name smells just as uniatist?

PP

Not affiliated with Punch.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,311
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Do Orthodox engage in reverse uniatism?
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2012, 03:44:33 PM »
I just noticed the quote on the bottom of Peter's posts.

Peter's quote from +Lubomyr is interesting in that its sentiments precede Cardinal Huzar by about five decades. "Ani do Rim, ani do Moskvi!" (neither to Rome nor to Moscow!)was the rallying cry of the Ruthenian Greek Catholics leaving the Unia in 1937 as they sought refuge and protection under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. That path remains open to those who wish to follow it.