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Author Topic: Orthodox ban bibles?  (Read 1273 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dave in McKinney
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« on: June 02, 2012, 11:02:26 AM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 12:13:59 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
What evidence do you have that the Roman Catholic Church banned bibles?
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 02:47:27 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
What evidence do you have that the Roman Catholic Church banned bibles?
So do you mean that when certain versions of the Bible in other languages were banned, like in England in the 15th century, it was the State that was banning the books rather than the church doing the banning, like during the Inquisition the church excommunicated people and then the State killed them?
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 04:10:14 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
What evidence do you have that the Roman Catholic Church banned bibles?
So do you mean that when certain versions of the Bible in other languages were banned, like in England in the 15th century, it was the State that was banning the books rather than the church doing the banning, like during the Inquisition the church excommunicated people and then the State killed them?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
What evidence do you have that the Roman Catholic Church banned bibles?

Quote
(1) During the course of the first millennium of her existence, the Church did not promulgate any law concerning the reading of Scripture in the vernacular. The faithful were rather encouraged to read the Sacred Books according to their spiritual needs (cf. St. Irenæus, Against Heresies III.4).

(2) The next five hundred years show only local regulations concerning the use of the Bible in the vernacular. On 2 January, 1080, Gregory VII wrote to the Duke of Bohemia that he could not allow the publication of the Scriptures in the language of the country. The letter was written chiefly to refuse the petition of the Bohemians for permission to conduct Divine service in the Slavic language. The pontiff feared that the reading of the Bible in the vernacular would lead to irreverence and wrong interpretation of the inspired text (St. Gregory VII, "Epist.", vii, xi). The second document belongs to the time of the Waldensian and Albigensian heresies. The Bishop of Metz had written to Innocent III that there existed in his diocese a perfect frenzy for the Bible in the vernacular. In 1199 the pope replied that in general the desire to read the Scriptures was praiseworthy, but that the practice was dangerous for the simple and unlearned ("Epist., II, cxli; Hurter, "Gesch. des. Papstes Innocent III", Hamburg, 1842, IV, 501 sqq.). After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse of Sacred Scripture on the part of the Cathari: "prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti laicis permittatur habere" (Hefele, "Concilgesch", Freiburg, 1863, V, 875). In 1233 the Synod of Tarragona issued a similar prohibition in its second canon, but both these laws are intended only for the countries subject to the jurisdiction of the respective synods (Hefele, ibid., 918). The Third Synod of Oxford, in 1408, owing to the disorders of the Lollards, who in addition to their crimes of violence and anarchy had introduced virulent interpolations into the vernacular sacred text, issued a law in virtue of which only the versions approved by the local ordinary or the provincial council were allowed to be read by the laity (Hefele, op. cit., VI, 817).

Depends on what you mean by banned and Bibles.

Here is a conservative take to say the least.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 05:45:05 PM »

Here is a conservative take to say the least.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm



Well, that was an interesting read.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 06:31:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?
What evidence do you have that the Roman Catholic Church banned bibles?
So do you mean that when certain versions of the Bible in other languages were banned, like in England in the 15th century, it was the State that was banning the books rather than the church doing the banning, like during the Inquisition the church excommunicated people and then the State killed them?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

1) The first rule of the Catholic Church is you do not talk about the Catholic Church

2) The second rule of the Catholic Church is.. you do not talk about the Catholic Church

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 07:30:03 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ," said St. Jerome. The Church would be doing no on favors if it banned its faithful from reading its own Scripture. It is the job of the Church to instruct through the written and spoken word.
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 08:15:12 PM »

1) The first rule of the Catholic Church is you do not talk about the Catholic Church

2) The second rule of the Catholic Church is.. you do not talk about the Catholic Church

Grin

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 08:18:48 PM »

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church anywhere banned bibles like the Catholic church did?

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ," said St. Jerome. The Church would be doing no on favors if it banned its faithful from reading its own Scripture. It is the job of the Church to instruct through the written and spoken word.

I believe this issue in this thread is banning bibles in the sense of of banning certain versions of the bible. Unfortunately, I'm a bit rusty on the details.
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 08:40:20 PM »

The Confession of Dositheus has this to say:

Quote
Because all Scripture is divinely-inspired and profitable {cf. 2 Timothy 3:16}, we know, and necessarily so, that without [Scripture] it is impossible to be Orthodox at all. Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read. But to those who are not so disciplined, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, knowing by experience the damage that can cause, forbids them to read [Scripture]. Indeed, tt is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation {Romans 10:10}. But to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for these and other similar reasons. For it is the same thing to prohibit undisciplined persons from reading all the Sacred Scriptures, as to require infants to abstain from strong meats.
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 11:21:56 PM »

The Confession of Dositheus has this to say:

Quote
Because all Scripture is divinely-inspired and profitable {cf. 2 Timothy 3:16}, we know, and necessarily so, that without [Scripture] it is impossible to be Orthodox at all. Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read. But to those who are not so disciplined, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, knowing by experience the damage that can cause, forbids them to read [Scripture]. Indeed, tt is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation {Romans 10:10}. But to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for these and other similar reasons. For it is the same thing to prohibit undisciplined persons from reading all the Sacred Scriptures, as to require infants to abstain from strong meats.

That one's a little gem that I somehow overlooked when I once read the text of the Confession of Dositheus, and overall liked it.  (Obviously it was a skim read, and my comprehension of most things overall is skim.)  It's a gem because it begs the question of how different circumstances between historic times might render a different judgment on some/any thing from the church hierarchy (or hierarchies, if one does not believe in One Church.)  Today, I think it would be foolish for any Christian minister to advise laity to not read the Scriptures, because any one reads in general and most people are nowadays literate (above 99% in the USA, does any one know the figure?) - and who will judge what they read?  Shudder to think of all the nominal (could be church-attending) Christians (especially young ones) reading vampire and sex novels, porn and otherwise mayhem and irreverence, yet dutifully not reading any of the Bible because the Church would say not to.  I am nominal too, would just read the irreverent and gossipy stuff rather than the fantasy sex and gore, which would still be very bad reading material according to Sts. Paul and James, etc.

Did (when did) the Orthodox pastoral position on laity reading the Holy Scriptures change?
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 11:35:33 PM »

Did (when did) the Orthodox pastoral position on laity reading the Holy Scriptures change?

It does say scripture should be read by those "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read" but that it "is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation". I'm pretty sure this was in response to the idea that scripture can be interpreted in a manner that is contradictory to how it has always been interpreted and understood, which would explain the "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read".

Just a thought.
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 12:33:40 AM »

Did (when did) the Orthodox pastoral position on laity reading the Holy Scriptures change?

It does say scripture should be read by those "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read" but that it "is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation". I'm pretty sure this was in response to the idea that scripture can be interpreted in a manner that is contradictory to how it has always been interpreted and understood, which would explain the "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read".

Just a thought.
Angry I didn't like the Roman position on this, as laid out in the link posted by Orthonorm from New Advent, and I don't like this quote from the  Confession of Dositheus either. I would suggest the position has been modified, as evidenced by the presence of the Orthodox Study Bible the Eastern Greek Orthodox New Testament and other texts now available, but I would like to know when and how this changed again.
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 12:53:47 AM »

Did (when did) the Orthodox pastoral position on laity reading the Holy Scriptures change?

It does say scripture should be read by those "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read" but that it "is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation". I'm pretty sure this was in response to the idea that scripture can be interpreted in a manner that is contradictory to how it has always been interpreted and understood, which would explain the "only by those... who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read".

Just a thought.
Angry I didn't like the Roman position on this, as laid out in the link posted by Orthonorm from New Advent, and I don't like this quote from the  Confession of Dositheus either. I would suggest the position has been modified, as evidenced by the presence of the Orthodox Study Bible the Eastern Greek Orthodox New Testament and other texts now available, but I would like to know when and how this changed again.

My unstudied hunch is just that it changed (necessarily) with the spread of literacy, and repeating my thought earlier, it would just seem utterly ridiculous to admonish lay people to not read the Scriptures by themselves, while at the same time not admonishing them **not** to read so much of the other stuff that most people gravitate to.  That alone (as the modern popularity of Harry Potter and Twilight, and more grotesque "intelligent" horror-themed stuff probably favored more by folks on these boards) should have brought about the change, if not overall literacy.  But then, a question is how to ensure the Scriptures do get heard by the laity, if they are read in an archaic form of one's language intelligible only to the higher-learned, or moreso, if the liturgical language is in a separate family from one's vernacular (like Church Slavonic to Romanian, or Koine Greek to Hebrew.)  In this case, does the priest repeat the readings (at least the Gospel) in his homily?

My questions are a bit ridiculous for the present-day situation, but are considering if this little advice from the Confession of Dositheus were still upheld by the Orthodox Church (and moreover, if it were characteristic of the greater part of Church history up until a few centuries ago.)
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 01:27:02 AM »

Don't believe idiots who preach the gospel of Jack chick.
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 02:27:58 AM »

Well, it generally discouraged the reading of the Bible, within living memory, at least. Even if you'll find a dozen apologists here in America to say the contrary , they are hardly representative.
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 08:04:37 PM »

Well, it generally discouraged the reading of the Bible, within living memory, at least. Even if you'll find a dozen apologists here in America to say the contrary , they are hardly representative.

This is getting super-boring.

My grandfather is well-studied in the scriptures, as is my great-uncle, and both are Greeks of peasant stock; neither from a priestly family.

It's true we have never had the same culture of bible-reading as do American protestants, but Orthodox Christianity is bigger than the norms and ways of Balkan peasantry.
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 10:16:01 PM »

Don't believe idiots who preach the gospel of Jack chick.

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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 10:23:00 PM »

Did (when did) the Orthodox pastoral position on laity reading the Holy Scriptures change?

If you read some of St. John Chrysostom's sermons, he was nearly on his knees begging people to read the scriptures.  He also didn't leave many excuses for anyone.

If you couldn't afford a New Testament, consider how much money you spend on the tools of your trade and make better priorities in your life.

If you really couldn't afford it, then buy just one Gospel.

If you couldn't afford one Gospel, then borrow someone else's.

If you didn't have time, consider how much time you waste watching horse races and entertainment and make better priorities in your life.

If you could never remember anything, consider the statistics you remember about your favorite sports star or the lines from your favorite theatrical show and make better priorities in your life.

If you didn't understand what the scriptures meant, then read them and go to church to hear them explained.

If you couldn't read, have someone read to you.

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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 05:28:13 AM »

yeah, the Bible banning was an innovation from only a few hundred years ago.
but it affected a few churches badly. as far as i know, most orthodox and catholic churches now have gone back to the original orthodox position of reading the Bible a lot.
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 05:50:55 AM »

yeah, the Bible banning was an innovation from only a few hundred years ago.
but it affected a few churches badly. as far as i know, most orthodox and catholic churches now have gone back to the original orthodox position of reading the Bible a lot.

See link above. Unless by a few you mean nine.

And this is just one witness of official conservative history.

And again the OP begs the question of what what banning and Bible means. The suppression of text held sacred by Christian communities outside what Orthodox wrongly and often call "canonical" Scripture certainly happened early and often.

This is all old news and I am not sure what the importance of it is.
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