Western Rite Bishop?!?

[primuspilus]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

[ialmisry]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

I think that the OCA has given an improvement on Orthodox canonical structure by its statute:
http://oca.org/statute/article-xii

Article XII
National Groups

When the good of the Church requires that particular national groups receive an assurance of identity, the Holy Synod may establish dioceses and/or deaneries and set standards for their participation in the life of the Orthodox Church in America by mutual agreement with the group and until such time as the diocesan structure of the Church can be organized on an exclusively territorial basis. If a given group is organized as a diocese, the bishop of this diocese is a member of the Holy Synod and receives an episcopal title defined territorially. The Statute shall constitute the fundamental law for the existence of all such groups within the Orthodox Church in America.

which provides a solution to lots of problems the Churches are facing now.

In the context of the "auxialary bishop" drivel, it makes even more sense.

[primuspilus]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess my big thing is I can hear Met. Ware in his sagely, calm voice say in my head, "You see, this is like the ***u word****".

PP

[ialmisry]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess my big thing is I can hear Met. Ware in his sagely, calm voice say in my head, "You see, this is like the ***u word****".

PP

No, because even if the WRO got an exclusively WRO bishop (and Bp. John still remains Arab Orthodox AFAIK), he would still be in the same Holy Synod as the rest of the bishops in North America/US.  We're not going to get an WRO bishop to add to the collection of Orthodox bishops per city in North America.
e.g.

Diocesan Locator
 
To find your diocese,
enter your zip code:      
 —or— select a state:      
 
The Roman (Latin) Catholic Church is organized territorially by dioceses. The locator above finds information for Roman dioceses and archdioceses.

If you are seeking information for a specific bishop, please enter his name in the search utility at the upper right corner of the website.

View complete listing of all dioceses, archdioceses, eparchies and archeparchies

EPARCHIES  AND  ARCHEPARCHIES
Catholic churches originating in Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa have their own distinctive liturgical, legal and organizational systems and are identified by the national or ethnic character of their region of origin. Each is considered fully equal to the Latin tradition within the church.
Directory of eparchies and archeparchies

http://usccb.org/about/bishops-and-dioceses/diocesan-locator.cfm

[primuspilus]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess my big thing is I can hear Met. Ware in his sagely, calm voice say in my head, "You see, this is like the ***u word****".

PP

No, because even if the WRO got an exclusively WRO bishop (and Bp. John still remains Arab Orthodox AFAIK), he would still be in the same Holy Synod as the rest of the bishops in North America/US.  We're not going to get an WRO bishop to add to the collection of Orthodox bishops per city in North America.

Yes he does remain in his same jurisdiction. Im not really so much worried about having East and West rite orthodox bishops in the same city, but more of having almost a completely separate hierarchy that would put more of a visible, tangible separation between the rites.

Am I worrying over nothing?

PP

[ialmisry]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess my big thing is I can hear Met. Ware in his sagely, calm voice say in my head, "You see, this is like the ***u word****".

PP

No, because even if the WRO got an exclusively WRO bishop (and Bp. John still remains Arab Orthodox AFAIK), he would still be in the same Holy Synod as the rest of the bishops in North America/US.  We're not going to get an WRO bishop to add to the collection of Orthodox bishops per city in North America.

Yes he does remain in his same jurisdiction. Im not really so much worried about having East and West rite orthodox bishops in the same city, but more of having almost a completely separate hierarchy that would put more of a visible, tangible separation between the rites.

Am I worrying over nothing?

PP

Yes, but that's OK. Such worrying keeps it nothing.

[primuspilus]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess my big thing is I can hear Met. Ware in his sagely, calm voice say in my head, "You see, this is like the ***u word****".

PP

No, because even if the WRO got an exclusively WRO bishop (and Bp. John still remains Arab Orthodox AFAIK), he would still be in the same Holy Synod as the rest of the bishops in North America/US.  We're not going to get an WRO bishop to add to the collection of Orthodox bishops per city in North America.

Yes he does remain in his same jurisdiction. Im not really so much worried about having East and West rite orthodox bishops in the same city, but more of having almost a completely separate hierarchy that would put more of a visible, tangible separation between the rites.

Am I worrying over nothing?

PP

Yes, but that's OK. Such worrying keeps it nothing.

lol good way of putting it.

PP

[Shanghaiski]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

Bishop Basil did it before.

In the American Antiochian system, each auxiliary bishop has certain areas he sees to, besides each region--youth, Western Rite, liturgics, etc.

[primuspilus]

Bishop Basil did it before.

In the American Antiochian system, each auxiliary bishop has certain areas he sees to, besides each region--youth, Western Rite, liturgics, etc

Before my time

However, even my priest was confused, and a little irritated since we evidently wont get an explanation till August, and our Bishop Thomas is supposed to come visit in 3 weeks

PP

[Alpo]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes.

Nice. I hope you can have pontifical masses and WR ordinations now.

[primuspilus]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes.

Nice. I hope you can have pontifical masses and WR ordinations now.

?

PP

[William]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes.

Nice. I hope you can have pontifical masses and WR ordinations now.

?

PP

Those don't already exist? I know there aren't any WR bishops but aren't any bishops at least biritual?

[Alpo]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes.

Nice. I hope you can have pontifical masses and WR ordinations now.

?

PP

Those don't already exist? I know there aren't any WR bishops but aren't any bishops at least biritual?

At least I haven't heard of any Antiochian pontifical mass or Antiochian priests being ordained with Roman rite. Maybe one of our Antiochian members can tell more of their practices. It could be that I have just missed something.

[Shanghaiski]

Bishop Basil did it before.

In the American Antiochian system, each auxiliary bishop has certain areas he sees to, besides each region--youth, Western Rite, liturgics, etc

Before my time

However, even my priest was confused, and a little irritated since we evidently wont get an explanation till August, and our Bishop Thomas is supposed to come visit in 3 weeks

PP

Ask Bishop Thomas about it. He's good.

Welcome to Antiochianland. It's probably the same in every jurisdiction. All decisions come from the Sublime Porte, and then they're passed on to viziers, and the viziers pass them to cronies, and the cronies to lackeys, and if you ever get a direct letter it will be nothing but generalizations and platitudes.

[primuspilus]

Ask Bishop Thomas about it. He's good

I'll see him at his visit on the 24th

me to Antiochianland. It's probably the same in every jurisdiction. All decisions come from the Sublime Porte, and then they're passed on to viziers, and the viziers pass them to cronies, and the cronies to lackeys, and if you ever get a direct letter it will be nothing but generalizations and platitudes

So am I a cronie or a lackey?

Is that kind of like Bebop and Rocksteady?

PP

[Shanghaiski]

Ask Bishop Thomas about it. He's good

I'll see him at his visit on the 24th

me to Antiochianland. It's probably the same in every jurisdiction. All decisions come from the Sublime Porte, and then they're passed on to viziers, and the viziers pass them to cronies, and the cronies to lackeys, and if you ever get a direct letter it will be nothing but generalizations and platitudes

So am I a cronie or a lackey?

Is that kind of like Bebop and Rocksteady?

PP

No, you're one of the plebians, like me. The Antiochian Archdiocese, at least, does not appear to be forthcoming with a communication of its processes. Although, I don't imagine it's any better anywhere else.

[primuspilus]

Ask Bishop Thomas about it. He's good

I'll see him at his visit on the 24th

me to Antiochianland. It's probably the same in every jurisdiction. All decisions come from the Sublime Porte, and then they're passed on to viziers, and the viziers pass them to cronies, and the cronies to lackeys, and if you ever get a direct letter it will be nothing but generalizations and platitudes

So am I a cronie or a lackey?

Is that kind of like Bebop and Rocksteady?

PP

No, you're one of the plebians, like me. The Antiochian Archdiocese, at least, does not appear to be forthcoming with a communication of its processes. Although, I don't imagine it's any better anywhere else.

Yeah, the communication to our priest was basically, "You aint gettin no explanation till August, and even then you probably wont like it"

Of course there could be some kind of uber-secret, like the Pope is converting and Bp. John is there to help bring in the 1 billion roman catholics to the western rite 

PP

[biro]

Okay, but I'm not giving up San Gennaro's Day. That food is *good.*

[Alpo]

Okay, but I'm not giving up San Gennaro's Day. That food is *good.*

What food? San Gennaro is my Patron. I'd love to learn every kind of traditions concerning his feast.

[biro]

Okay, but I'm not giving up San Gennaro's Day. That food is *good.*

What food? San Gennaro is my Patron. I'd love to learn every kind of traditions concerning his feast.

In New York, there's a huge street festival the day of his feast. Tons of good things to eat. 

[Alpo]

Okay, but I'm not giving up San Gennaro's Day. That food is *good.*

What food? San Gennaro is my Patron. I'd love to learn every kind of traditions concerning his feast.

In New York, there's a huge street festival the day of his feast. Tons of good things to eat. 

I just had yet another reason to visit New York.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Okay, but I'm not giving up San Gennaro's Day. That food is *good.*

What food? San Gennaro is my Patron. I'd love to learn every kind of traditions concerning his feast.

I lived in a suburb of Naples for three years, of which St. Gennaro is the patron saint. Check out the blood miracle of St. Januarius (San Gennaro) at http://www.portanapoli.com/Eng/Culture/blood_miracle.html

Little Italy in NY just goes nuts every year (this year on September 13-23):

""This Feast of San Gennaro holds a special place in the place of Italian people everywhere,” says Joseph Mattone, President of Figli di San Gennaro, Inc. "It is a festive period of faith and redemption, a time for remembrance and reconciliation, and a time for celebration. The delicious food, the free musical entertainment that reflects Italian-American culture and heritage are all there. The Feast brings the world to Little Italy and Little Italy to the world.” http://www.sangennaro.org/

As for food, the award-winning Celebrating Italy: The Tastes & Traditions of Italy as Revealed Through Its Feasts, Festivals & Sumptuous Foods by Carol Field should have a chapter on it.

[Peter J]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

So, in short, it sounds like you want to be similar to the Anglican-Use parishes rather than the Eastern Catholic Churches?

 

[Alpo]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

So, in short, it sounds like you want to be similar to the Anglican-Use parishes rather than the Eastern Catholic Churches?

 

For me that sounded like he doesn't want any new overlapping jurisdiction or ethnic ghetto into American Orthodoxy.

[primuspilus]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

So, in short, it sounds like you want to be similar to the Anglican-Use parishes rather than the Eastern Catholic Churches?

 

For me that sounded like he doesn't want any new overlapping jurisdiction or ethnic ghetto into American Orthodoxy.

basically.

[Christopher McAvoy]

Considering the considerable success that Anglican-use papal catholic churches are having. Role modeling oneselves on them in certain areas, particularly in having their own ordinary is a good idea. They are being received well and local bishops, should they be "modernist leaning" can not put the Cabáiste on them because they are separate from the regular latin dioceses.

[William]

What about Dom Jerome in the ROCOR?

[Shanghaiski]

What about Dom Jerome in the ROCOR?

His Grace is bishop of Mahnattan, who oversees ROCOR's Western Rite, but also several ER parishes, too.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't strike me that specific bishops for specific rites is an Orthodox thing. Bishops are for geographical areas, and they may be given other assignments by the Holy Synod.

[Peter J]

What about Dom Jerome in the ROCOR?

His Grace is bishop of Mahnattan, who oversees ROCOR's Western Rite, but also several ER parishes, too.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't strike me that specific bishops for specific rites is an Orthodox thing. Bishops are for geographical areas, and they may be given other assignments by the Holy Synod.

I guess this is one of the big things I don't understand about Orthodoxy. In fact, in Catholicism it's just the opposite: it's virtually unheard-of for a bishop to have more than one rite in his diocese. (I'm not counting Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form, b/c they're both the Roman Rite.)

[Christopher McAvoy]

Having a specific bishop for a specific rite.

If this does not happen, the specific rite will eventually cease to exist in my opinion.

I can not think of any instances in history where there has successfully been a bishop allowing multiple rites to thrive in the eparchy/archdiocese. One of them eventually suffers from prejudice.

If there is not a canon that allows for it - there needs to be - it is part of our fallen natures.

It is a practical reason, not theological, practical to protect particular culture/nations patrimony.

My opinion is that the Orthodox (byzantine rite) Bishops in Western Europe, US and former western european colonies are at the present time less prejudiced toward the Western rite than the Latin rite Catholic heterodox bishops were toward eastern rite parishes 100 years ago. Though this does not mean prejudice does not exist. It is inevitable, it is partly cultural, partly less education, perhaps even partly revenge for past hurt feelings. It is still necessary to have a western rite orthodox bishop or vicar to oversee them and protect them to an extent.

Over time wounds between eastern/western traditions appear to be healing to an extent, but at the same old issues continue to exist and come around to haunt us. It especially does not help that the western rite heterodox "catholic" or protestant churches appear to be stuck in the malaise of modernist humanist heresies and stuck in opposition toward holy tradition. For if the western heterodox "churches/communities" continue to be as opposed toward holy tradition as they are today, this does not make them look trustworthy or help wounds be able to heal.  

As could be observed from the recent reconciliation attempts with the SSPX, the pope changed the writing to make it more acceptable to the SSPX Archbishop, allowing them to be against certain vatican II interpretations, but than the pope sent the letter to the cardinals in the ecclesia dei or congregation of doctrine of faith and they changed the words of the letter so that it says the opposite - thus the SSPX archbishop says something to the tune of "we can not sign this document because it is rewritten to disagree with our position".

""We continue to emphasise that there is a crisis in the Church - the Lefebvrian leader affirmed - The news may have become tiresome because Rome makes it seem as though everything is fine but the very next day we talk to them... And here is what we get from the Secretary of the Congregation for the Faith: "But you know, it's the priests, it's the bishops, it's the Catholic universities: they are full of heresies!" Those were the Secretary of the Congregation for the Faith's very words in June 2009! They know, therefore, that the situation the Church is facing is a very serious one. For them to admit that the Church is infested with heresy is bad enough! But what's worse is that they pretend that everything is fine and dandy. It is disappointing, it is worrying, I admit, but this is the reality"."  

It is harder to be sympathetic to western rite within orthodoxy if one considers that all of western christianity (society at large as well) seems to be in a state of crisis.

U-word removed - MK.

[Christopher McAvoy]

At the end I ment to say:

It is harder to be sympathetic to western rite within Orthodoxy if one considers that all of western christianity (society at large as well) seems to be in a state of crisis. But at the same time, one can't entirely acknowledge that the whole rite is to blame or hopeless, and one can't say that the eastern rite majority Orthodox are necessarily not in a similar, if lesser, faith crisis at times as well.

However excuses like this can be made as reasons to discourage a western rite, even though I believe it is critically important that it succeed within Orthodoxy for the sake of world evangelization and mutual enrichment with the true faith in different cultural context. It shows that Orthodoxy respects every culture and takes it on it's own terms and does not demand strict conformity with the majority in matters of prayer, saints, varied (yet traditional) externals/languages.

[braish]

I certainly understand the debate between a rite-specific bishop or simply a geographic bishop but perhaps Antioch will use the Western Rite Bishop as an ambassador to us Contining Anglicans and traditional Anglicans who share the same faith as the Orthodox. I am very hopeful that this position will be used in such a manner.

In Christ,
this sinner

[Sleeper]

I am hopeful for this too.

[kijabeboy03]

I'm very curious to see how Western Orthodox fare precisely because of this issue. I often feel/fear that reconciliation efforts with the Oriental Orthodox are generally stalled because of the inability of some Byzantine Orthodox to recognize that much of what they see as The Orthodox Way of Being Orthodox is actually local custom, whether of Constantinople or Kiev or elsewhere. If we can get over our mono-ritualism in this case, I think it bodes well for our eventual reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox on the level of equals. God granting of course...

However excuses like this can be made as reasons to discourage a western rite, even though I believe it is critically important that it succeed within Orthodoxy for the sake of world evangelization and mutual enrichment with the true faith in different cultural context. It shows that Orthodoxy respects every culture and takes it on it's own terms and does not demand strict conformity with the majority in matters of prayer, saints, varied (yet traditional) externals/languages.

[braish]

bump

Any news on the new bishop?

[Shanghaiski]

bump

Any news on the new bishop?

What new bishop? We've just explained how there is not, at present, an Orthodox bishop exclusively for the Western Rite, that each jurisdiction has its own arrangement and that the churches are primarily under the local bishop with Bishop Basil having a capacity in the Antiochian WR and Bishop Jerome having a capacity in the ROCOR WR, and the ROCOR Met. Hilarion also taking an interest

[braish]

bump

Any news on the new bishop?

What new bishop? We've just explained how there is not, at present, an Orthodox bishop exclusively for the Western Rite, that each jurisdiction has its own arrangement and that the churches are primarily under the local bishop with Bishop Basil having a capacity in the Antiochian WR and Bishop Jerome having a capacity in the ROCOR WR, and the ROCOR Met. Hilarion also taking an interest

Well not new per se, but I thought Bishop John was now also serving as a Bishop over WR for the Antiochians.  Just curious how that is working...

[primuspilus]

bump

Any news on the new bishop?

What new bishop? We've just explained how there is not, at present, an Orthodox bishop exclusively for the Western Rite, that each jurisdiction has its own arrangement and that the churches are primarily under the local bishop with Bishop Basil having a capacity in the Antiochian WR and Bishop Jerome having a capacity in the ROCOR WR, and the ROCOR Met. Hilarion also taking an interest

Well not new per se, but I thought Bishop John was now also serving as a Bishop over WR for the Antiochians.  Just curious how that is working...

From my understanding, its more like a bishop of contact then a controller of sorts.

PP

[Thomas]

As I understand it every Antiochian Orthodox Bishop has certain Archdiocesean duties in addition to his diocesean duties. Formerly Bishop Basil had responsibility for the Western Rite. After his election as Secretary to the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central paAmerica, he had a difficult time even doing his diocesean parish visits along with the WR obligations so Metropolitan Philip  lifted the burden of the WR and gave it to the newly ordained Bishop John who also has responsibility for the Word Magazine.  The main thing I saw Bishop Basil do was to encourage and guide heterodox clergy as they came into the Antiochian Church and assist them to pave the way for their parish to eneter the Communion withthem---this usually led to an ordination of the heterodox clergy. He also represented WR needs in the Antiochian Synod.

The Western Rite Vicariate is actully administered by  The Very Rev. Edward W. Hughes, Vicar General WRVicarGeneral@gmail.com and
 The Rev. John W. Fenton, Assistant to the Vicar General frfenton@holyincarnation.org according to theAntiochian official Website. There is The Western Rite Commission that serves as an advisory board and consists of:  The Very Rev. Edward W. Hughes, Vicar General WRVicarGeneral@gmail.com ,  The Very Rev. Msgr. George Morelli, Commissioner gmorelli@fdu.edu , The Very Rev. Michael Keiser, Commissioner missionrus@aol.com ,  Mrs Marie Hyder, Commissioner marie.hyder@gmail.com , and The Very Rev. Paul W. S. Schneirla, Vicar-General emeritus .

[Peter J]

I say this in hope that some will say that they agree with it (but realistically I doubt anyone will do so).

I can't help feeling that the Orthodox go to the opposite extreme, if you will, from what we Catholics do with our "uniatism". Not that I'm in any way praising uniatism, but it often seems like Orthodox are afraid of there being even a remote similarity between WRO and uniatism (e.g. having a Western-Rite church).

That's my two cents -- I'll probably think of a better way of saying it later, but I guess this will do for now.

[Christopher McAvoy]

Except for the fact that overt byzantinization is not much more desirable than overt latinization, I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model. I do not fear the resemblences to it.

Though on the other hand, considering that many of the latinizations were based on more recent changes, some things that appear as byzantinization are in some cases influences from "older abandoned latin practices" which were maintained within byzantine orthodox patrimony. Thus it could be said that some degree of byzantinization could be more desirable than latinization, if the elements of byzantinization are more conservative ancient elements. (Though ancient latin elements can also be the more ancient at times). Thus it can be confusing to tell what is the true patrimony and which is unnecessary artificial anti-western aberration.

[macclesfieldfan1990]

For us Antiochians, we were just informed that Bishop John will be "overseeing" all Western Rite parishes. I personally am not too thrilled with this idea.

It is not for me to question Metropolitan Phillip, but part of being Western Rite is that we are as orthodox as anyone else, and it is not anywhere similar to the Eastern Catholics.

Anyone else heard of this? Thoughts?

PP

[Peter J]

I can't help feeling that the Orthodox go to the opposite extreme, if you will, from what we Catholics do with our "uniatism". Not that I'm in any way praising uniatism, but it often seems like Orthodox are afraid of there being even a remote similarity between WRO and uniatism (e.g. having a Western-Rite church).

Of course, I guess there are some exceptions ...

Except for the fact that overt byzantinization is not much more desirable than overt latinization, I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model. I do not fear the resemblences to it.

  You do?

P.S. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, right? Can't we all agree that uniatism isn't a decent model, but without having a knee-jerk reaction against anything that vaguely resembles uniatism?

[Alpo]

Can't we all agree that uniatism isn't a decent model

What do you mean by "uniatism" and why it isn't a decent model?

[Peter J]

Can't we all agree that uniatism isn't a decent model

What do you mean by "uniatism" and why it isn't a decent model?

Answers to those questions vary; but I think it is generally agreed that uniatism is one form of proselytism. (Not the only form, naturally.)

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Liturgy > Western Rite Discussion (Moderator: arimethea) > Topic: Western Rite Bishop?!?