Author Topic: Western rite fasts  (Read 2810 times)

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Offline Rdunbar123

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Western rite fasts
« on: October 13, 2012, 07:05:07 AM »
Questions for posters knowledgable about Wesrtern Rite only. Our AWRV parish follows Eastern fasting rules. The western rite calendar we were given has western fasting rules much like the RCC before they eased the rules. I've been to a parish in another state tha follows western rules. Just wondering what other WR parishes do. Maybe this is why a new Bishop has been put over the Antiochian WR.

Offline age234

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 08:57:40 AM »
I know several AWRV folks and clergy and all are in agreement that Western fasting rules should be followed. Each rite should be faithful to its own tradition.

Offline Great8

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 06:24:55 PM »
We follow the western rules.:)
Deanna

Offline MichaelArchangelos

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 08:45:15 PM »
What are the Western Rules? I know that the traditional Roman Catholic fasting rules allow only a single full meal on a fast day, which can be augmented with two smaller meals, called collations which should not together equal a full meal. I remember reading in a pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic book that one collation should be 2oz and the other should be 8oz. As far as I know, meat is allowed once a day at the principal meal as long as abstinence is not also required on that day (e.g. Friday).

I know that Lent in the West used to be much stricter, but dispensations from dairy were able to be purchased. Several churches were built from the money made selling such dispensations. I also remember hearing that one was not supposed to eat before Vespers, and as a result Vespers was shifted to the afternoon.

Offline Great8

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 10:41:49 PM »
What are the Western Rules? I know that the traditional Roman Catholic fasting rules allow only a single full meal on a fast day, which can be augmented with two smaller meals, called collations which should not together equal a full meal. I remember reading in a pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic book that one collation should be 2oz and the other should be 8oz. As far as I know, meat is allowed once a day at the principal meal as long as abstinence is not also required on that day (e.g. Friday).

I know that Lent in the West used to be much stricter, but dispensations from dairy were able to be purchased. Several churches were built from the money made selling such dispensations. I also remember hearing that one was not supposed to eat before Vespers, and as a result Vespers was shifted to the afternoon.
I don't know about the the history of the fasting rules but you do seem to have the gist of it as far as I understand them as a recent convert; abstinence nearly every Friday (plus some other days), only one full (small) meal on a fast day, nothing to eat before noon on a fast day, etc. I've never heard of the oz regulation but 1/4 meal after noon and small dinner, no snacking in between is what I was told. That's the basic rule, of course the measure of how strictly an individual adheres to the basic rule is between them and their priest. Abstinence is from meat but not dairy. Some days are abstinence, some are fasts and some are both. Fasting is for healthy adults and abstinence is for every one.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 10:50:47 PM by Great8 »
Deanna

Offline Fr.Aidan

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 10:58:44 AM »
The historic Western Rite rules (such as prior to the Roman Catholic Church gutting them in 1910 or so) were almost exactly equal in ascetic difficulty, to the fast rules of the ER. Or maybe "equivalent" is a better word. That is, there were many days of pretty strict fasting, including every Friday and, if you go back a thousand years to when the West was still Orthodox, Wednesdays as well. In Lent the fasting was very strict every weekday, and there was no meat, chicken, dairy, eggs, etc., allowed even on Sundays; even fish was discouraged in Lent.

Later on, the RC authorities (especially after Protestantism's influence on Rome) decided this was all overly ascetical, and got rid of most of it.

WR Orthodox of today follow a variety of rules. Some are modern Roman Catholic in their absence of ascetic content, and some are old Western rules which have a stiff ascetic content. In the RWRV (Russian Western Rite Vicariate) both sets of rules are followed in different places. In the AWRV, there is a variety in that some follow modern not-very-ascetic rules, and others follow ER rules, which have a stiff ascetic content. In writing this I am trying to describe, in a way that is informational, what is really going on. I am not trying to pigeonhole This Camp as good and That Camp as bad. So please, nobody try to read that into what I'm describing. Don't shoot the messenger...

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 01:14:48 AM »
It would appear that the fasting rules for the AWRV are about to change under Bp. John. From what I've been told, the Advent fast will be now require fasting and abstinence on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and the Lenten fast will be fasting and abstinence every day except Sundays.

Offline Fr.Aidan

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 01:27:14 AM »
This is great news, that the original traditions of the Western Church may be preserved and may help souls struggling on the hard road of salvation.

Some will call it "archaeology." Oh, well.

It is dying more so we can live more.

Incidentally, if this does happen, the orthopraxis of the AWRV will surpass that of the RWRV in one significant aspect!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 01:31:42 AM by Fr.Aidan »

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 01:31:05 AM »
Perhaps "recovery" would be a better term :)

I agree, though, it is good news.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 10:26:28 PM »
It would appear that the fasting rules for the AWRV are about to change under Bp. John. From what I've been told, the Advent fast will be now require fasting and abstinence on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and the Lenten fast will be fasting and abstinence every day except Sundays.

Fasting on all Saturdays in Lent, not just the Ember Saturday?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 10:31:47 PM »
It would appear that the fasting rules for the AWRV are about to change under Bp. John. From what I've been told, the Advent fast will be now require fasting and abstinence on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and the Lenten fast will be fasting and abstinence every day except Sundays.

Fasting on all Saturdays in Lent, not just the Ember Saturday?

Yep, that's correct.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 10:33:45 PM »
It would appear that the fasting rules for the AWRV are about to change under Bp. John. From what I've been told, the Advent fast will be now require fasting and abstinence on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and the Lenten fast will be fasting and abstinence every day except Sundays.

Fasting on all Saturdays in Lent, not just the Ember Saturday?

Yep, that's correct.

Isn't that sort of a departure from ancient Western tradition? Otherwise, what would be the point of the special fasting Ember Saturday in Lent? Or am I missing something?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 11:11:55 PM »
I'm not entirely sure. Their reason was, "These norms are those officially prescribed in the West by various local councils and episcopal decrees in and about the 9th century." So I'm assuming there must be some precedent for it.

It's also possible I misunderstood, but in outlining the changes, point #2 was "Every day in Lent (Sundays excepted)."

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 12:53:31 AM »
It should also be noted that the Ember days are not only marked by fasting, but also by the additional prayers, readings, ordinations, etc. They still serve their purpose even if the fasting is now the same on all other days.

Offline Fr.Aidan

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Re: Western rite fasts
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 07:36:56 PM »
One should not deduce things about Lent from the Ember Saturday practice, because the practice of keeping Ember Saturdays predates the existence of Great Lent itself.