Working at The Beer Store

[BalmungSama]

I recently became a catechumen. I thank God for that, even if I'm doing a horrible job of it myself (for another thread). I want to be a part of the True Church.

But my question right now involves work. I may get a job at The Beer Store. It's pretty much where people in Canada buy beer, since most of our alcohol is government controlled. I know that we have nothing against alcohol per se. Being drunk is a sin, but a small buzz is fine. I myself enjoy a shot or two of whiskey from time to time. Never had much of a taste for beer.

Anyways, I'm wondering; can I work there, should I get the job?

I asked a question like that regarding getting drunk to a friend of mine studying to be a priest. I brought up the miracle where Jesus had turned water into wine, and how it was the finest wine at the party. Normally they saved the worst wine for last, for when everyone's too drunk to know the difference. I used that to say that getting drunk must be fine, so long as what someone does while drunk is not sinful. He countered by citing a passage condemning drunkards and those who get drunk, and pointed out that only the ones who were still sober at the party would be able to appreciate the wine Jesus made.

My point with that passage is this; much like how Jesus gave people wine, something that isn't itself sinful, and people merely chose whether or not to sin with it, would I be able to sell beer the same way?

I know I probably should be asking my priest, but I don't want to come off as one of those who feels the need to call him up for every question.

[LBK]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

[PeterTheAleut]

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

[BalmungSama]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)



Selam

[BalmungSama]

Selam, you're right. I do have doubt. And I'd rather work somewhere else anyway. Preferably some place tech-related. It's something I know, enjoy, and my employee discount would be good for something (again, really don't like beer). And your input is extremely appreciated. But that said, I just wanted to say that I don't feel your drunk driver comparison is a fair one. Drug stores sell all sorts of things that can be addictive and/or impair driving. Your analogy sounds kind of like saying we shouldn't sell butcher knives just in case someone decides to out the Halloween movies.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Selam, you're right. I do have doubt. And I'd rather work somewhere else anyway. Preferably some place tech-related. It's something I know, enjoy, and my employee discount would be good for something (again, really don't like beer). And your input is extremely appreciated. But that said, I just wanted to say that I don't feel your drunk driver comparison is a fair one. Drug stores sell all sorts of things that can be addictive and/or impair driving. Your analogy sounds kind of like saying we shouldn't sell butcher knives just in case someone decides to out the Halloween movies.

Yes, although I don't quite see alcohol and daily kitchen utensils as analagous, I do nevertheless understand your point. It's a tricky issue. But I'm glad that you are deciding to err on the side of caution. You will never be judged harshly for making decisions based upon not wanting to contribute to another's suffering.

[PeterTheAleut]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

[mike]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Orthodox beer? Where?

[JamesRottnek]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)



Selam

Any product is potentially addictive and destructive; food stuff or otherwise.

[JamesRottnek]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Orthodox beer? Where?

I think she may have just been referring to Catholic monasteries, with regard to the beer,

[katherineofdixie]

A general rule of thumb for life decisions, IMHO, is that if you have doubts or reservations or feel uneasy about something  - don't do it.

[KBN1]

If it was an upscale wine distributor, would you have the same reservations?

[biro]

I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[witega]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Human beings are screwed up. We can take just about anything, no more how innocent in itself (or even good--the reason, EO switched to the one spoon for communion is because people where taking the consecrated Body of Christ home and doing who-knows-what blasphemous acts with it) and turn it into an opportunity or tool for sin. If you want to never do or provide anything that someone else might use in a sinful or harmful way, your only real option is to withdraw from human commerce (and society) entirely. And in fact, there are hermits who do just that. But if that's not your calling, if you have to live in the world, there is simply no way to apply a rule that you can't sell anything which another human being *might* use in a sinful or harmful way.

[Sauron]

Wine comes from the devil. That's in the Bible. So, pretty easy answer in my opinion.

[PeterTheAleut]

Wine comes from the devil. That's in the Bible. So, pretty easy answer in my opinion.

So why did you vote Yes?

[BalmungSama]

Wine comes from the devil. That's in the Bible. So, pretty easy answer in my opinion.

I know I should not question Lord Sauron, as only destruction awaits those who defy him, but I gotta say:
Not sure what passage you're referring to, but considering Jesus both made and drank wine, and wine is permitted in the Church (except on fasting days), I'm pretty sure you're missing something there.

[PeterTheAleut]

Wine comes from the devil. That's in the Bible. So, pretty easy answer in my opinion.

I know I should not question Lord Sauron, as only destruction awaits those who defy him, but I gotta say:
Not sure what passage you're referring to, but considering Jesus both made and drank wine, and wine is permitted in the Church (except on fasting days), I'm pretty sure you're missing something there.

Or else he's just employing some rhetorical irony here.

[KShaft]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

Seriously?  Trappist monks make the best beer on the face of the Earth. You heard Belgium beers being good? Thats because the Breweries in Belgium copied the various types of beer from the Monks. Go get a Chimay Blue, a Rochefort 8 or 10, a Westmalle Tripple, or Orval or Achel, or La Trappe (Westvelenten you wont be able to find most likely and if so for a huge premium). All made by monks.

[KShaft]

Wine comes from the devil. That's in the Bible. So, pretty easy answer in my opinion.

Polygamy is in the Bible. Lets vote on that one too. [click me for mood music] (My answer is in a southern twang, is yours too?)

[Cavaradossi]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

Seriously?  Trappist monks make the best beer on the face of the Earth. You heard Belgium beers being good? Thats because the Breweries in Belgium copied the various types of beer from the Monks. Go get a Chimay Blue, a Rochefort 8 or 10, a Westmalle Tripple, or Orval o
r Achel, or La Trappe (Westvelenten you wont be able to find most likely and if so for a huge premium). All made by monks.

What German breweries do you like (if any)?

[KShaft]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

Seriously?  Trappist monks make the best beer on the face of the Earth. You heard Belgium beers being good? Thats because the Breweries in Belgium copied the various types of beer from the Monks. Go get a Chimay Blue, a Rochefort 8 or 10, a Westmalle Tripple, or Orval o
r Achel, or La Trappe (Westvelenten you wont be able to find most likely and if so for a huge premium). All made by monks.

What German breweries do you like (if any)?

I lived in Germany for a while but only visited two or three brauhouses. Lets see, theres the Munchen Hofbrauhaus. Kind of a standard, but their glasses are green which means    it can skunk or degrate easily unfortunately. It does not transport well.  The Schweinfurt and Wurzburg Hofbrauhaus's are good too but you cant pick em up here. Spaten is okay. The Ayinger dopplebock is probably the best there is. Did not drink that until came back here as is the case with all of the beers I state heron after. Anything by Weihenstephaner  is great. Ive tried the premium or original, and it is readily available over here. Got no problem with Warstiener. Kinda have outgrown it though, but unlike American Macros would not hesitate to drink.  Ayinger and Weihenstephaner and Munchen Hofbrauhaus are the big three in my opinion. Get that dopplebock you will thank me. Look for the red and the goats.

On a side note, Great Lakes Dortmunder is world class, as is thier porter, which I am drinking now... better than founders, and thats saying a lot.

[Cavaradossi]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

Seriously?  Trappist monks make the best beer on the face of the Earth. You heard Belgium beers being good? Thats because the Breweries in Belgium copied the various types of beer from the Monks. Go get a Chimay Blue, a Rochefort 8 or 10, a Westmalle Tripple, or Orval o
r Achel, or La Trappe (Westvelenten you wont be able to find most likely and if so for a huge premium). All made by monks.

What German breweries do you like (if any)?

I lived in Germany for a while but only visited two or three brauhouses. Lets see, theres the Munchen Hofbrauhaus. Kind of a standard, but their glasses are green which means    it can skunk or degrate easily unfortunately. It does not transport well.  The Schweinfurt and Wurzburg Hofbrauhaus's are good too but you cant pick em up here. Spaten is okay. The Ayinger dopplebock is probably the best there is. Did not drink that until came back here as is the case with all of the beers I state heron after. Anything by Weihenstephaner  is great. Ive tried the premium or original, and it is readily available over here. Got no problem with Warstiener. Kinda have outgrown it though, but unlike American Macros would not hesitate to drink.  Ayinger and Weihenstephaner and Munchen Hofbrauhaus are the big three in my opinion. Get that dopplebock you will thank me. Look for the red and the goats.

On a side note, Great Lakes Dortmunder is world class, as is thier porter, which I am drinking now... better than founders, and thats saying a lot.

I've had Weihenstephaner's doppelbock, but not Ayinger's (in fact, I haven't ever seen a bottle of it, must not have been looking hard enough). I'll have to search for some the next time I go shopping for beer. Thanks for the recommendations.

[KShaft]

Orthodox (and, indeed, Roman Catholic) monasteries have been making wine (and, in western Europe, also brewing beer) for many centuries. If it's OK for monks to make wine (and it's by no means all intended for sacramental use) and sell it to support themselves, why should there be a problem with someone working at a beer store?

Huh. I had no idea that they sold the wine and beer they made. ...I probably should have done a bit more research before coming to a forum. Seems like it would've been pretty easy to find. Thank you so much.

Not much different from working in a convenience store, which I've done since becoming Orthodox. As long as the store owner didn't ask me to sell porn, I didn't see a problem with working there, at least until I could find a better job. (I once threatened to quit my job at a 7-Eleven because the owner wanted to sell porn; in response to my threat and a customer complaint, he relented and sent the porn back to its supplier.)

Bless you, Peter. Seriously, way to have a back bone on such an important issue.

Seriously?  Trappist monks make the best beer on the face of the Earth. You heard Belgium beers being good? Thats because the Breweries in Belgium copied the various types of beer from the Monks. Go get a Chimay Blue, a Rochefort 8 or 10, a Westmalle Tripple, or Orval o
r Achel, or La Trappe (Westvelenten you wont be able to find most likely and if so for a huge premium). All made by monks.

What German breweries do you like (if any)?

I lived in Germany for a while but only visited two or three brauhouses. Lets see, theres the Munchen Hofbrauhaus. Kind of a standard, but their glasses are green which means    it can skunk or degrate easily unfortunately. It does not transport well.  The Schweinfurt and Wurzburg Hofbrauhaus's are good too but you cant pick em up here. Spaten is okay. The Ayinger dopplebock is probably the best there is. Did not drink that until came back here as is the case with all of the beers I state heron after. Anything by Weihenstephaner  is great. Ive tried the premium or original, and it is readily available over here. Got no problem with Warstiener. Kinda have outgrown it though, but unlike American Macros would not hesitate to drink.  Ayinger and Weihenstephaner and Munchen Hofbrauhaus are the big three in my opinion. Get that dopplebock you will thank me. Look for the red and the goats.

On a side note, Great Lakes Dortmunder is world class, as is thier porter, which I am drinking now... better than founders, and thats saying a lot.

I've had Weihenstephaner's doppelbock, but not Ayinger's (in fact, I haven't ever seen a bottle of it, must not have been looking hard enough). I'll have to search for some the next time I go shopping for beer. Thanks for the recommendations.

NP. Ayingers is something special. Little pricey but worth it.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)



Selam

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

No, because medicine is necessary while alcohol is not. The pharmacist is not responsible for those who abuse medicine that is otherwise quite necessary. While moderate alcohol is not always harmful, it is not necessary. Therein is the difference.



Selam

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

[BalmungSama]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

I don't want to come off as if I'm arguing with you. I'm still undecided on this and appreciate your input. However, there is no good way to use porn. There is, however, a good way to drink. People may drink in moderation. My father has a beer or two every day, and doesn't get drunk from it. People enjoy the social aspect of it. It's not made just with the purpose to intoxicating.

Also, pharmacies have a lot of over-the-counter meds with no prescription needed that can get a guy pretty messed up.

Also I should point out that for you to buy, someone else must sell. I don't want to sound judgemental because you do make good points, but unless you brew your own beer, wouldn't your own purchasing be an endorsement of the distributor?

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

I don't want to come off as if I'm arguing with you. I'm still undecided on this and appreciate your input. However, there is no good way to use porn. There is, however, a good way to drink. People may drink in moderation. My father has a beer or two every day, and doesn't get drunk from it. People enjoy the social aspect of it. It's not made just with the purpose to intoxicating.

Also, pharmacies have a lot of over-the-counter meds with no prescription needed that can get a guy pretty messed up.

Also I should point out that for you to buy, someone else must sell. I don't want to sound judgemental because you do make good points, but unless you brew your own beer, wouldn't your own purchasing be an endorsement of the distributor?

No worries my friend. You ask legitimate questions. I did try to be clear that I don't make a moral equivalence between beer and pornography. Alcohol is not evil in itself, but pornography is.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but if I buy beer at the grocery store, I don't think I'm contributing to other people's acoholism or to drunkeness. Maybe it's just a personal conviction, but I would feel guilty about working at a bar, a casino, or a "beer store." But I don't feel guilty about enjoying beer in my own home, and I don't feel bad about purchasing beer. Some people may veiw that as logically inconsistent or hypocritical, but I don't think it is.

And I will say that if you can't find any other employment and working at the beer store is the only way you can support yourself or your family, then it may be OK. But I think you are wise to seek employment elsewhere.

Thanks for allowing me to chime in with my two cents.


Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

Alcohol is not designed to intoxicate. The fact that many abuse alcohol does not mean that alcohol is designed to be abused.

[PeterTheAleut]

And I will say that if you can't find any other employment and working at the beer store is the only way you can support yourself or your family, then it may be OK. But I think you are wise to seek employment elsewhere.

I can agree with this, but only for a totally different reason. Working in a beer store, if it's anything like working in a convenience store, is likely very low paying work. I certainly wouldn't do it if I had the option of working a much higher paying job, but if I were unemployed and desperately in need of work, I would go back to working in a convenience store until I could find something better.

[genesisone]

Here in Ontario, as in most Canadian provinces, alcoholic beverages are not sold in grocery or convenience stores (except perhaps in small isolated communities).

I'm not a beer drinker myself - but I don't object to others' moderate drinking. Here's what BalmungSama is talking about: The Beer Store

"The Beer Store" is always well known enough in any community to serve as a landmark when giving directions  .

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

Alcohol is not designed to intoxicate. The fact that many abuse alcohol does not mean that alcohol is designed to be abused.

Mild intoxication is not abuse (maybe I should use a different word than intoxication though.) If alcohol were not designed to alter consciousness in some way, then everyone would simply drink grape juice and near beer.


Selam

[quester]

Mild intoxication is not abuse (maybe I should use a different word than intoxication though.) If alcohol were not designed to alter consciousness in some way, then everyone would simply drink grape juice and near beer.


Selam

Wrong. If that were true the temperance movement would have been right and grape juice would have been used in the Eucharist instead of wine. Alcohol is simply a by-product of fermentation. Distillation may be a different matter (it's a technique which developed much later) but even so alcoholic beverages have been used for thousands of years because people did not have the technology to conserve non-alcoholic beverages like grape juice. Water may have been avoided because it was used for other purposes and would made people sick if contaminated. Also, alcoholic beverages can be healthy when taken in moderation. They were never primarily a source or recreation or debauchery as some have reduced them to today, although obviously they've always been abused.

[PeterTheAleut]

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.

I suppose that's a glass-half-empty way of looking at this. The glass-half-full approach I like to use would say that he who sells beer helps contribute to the merriment of others. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Alcohol is not designed to intoxicate. The fact that many abuse alcohol does not mean that alcohol is designed to be abused.

 I believe that alcohol is manufactured to intoxicate (which is different than abuse).  We can demonstrate this with looking at the ratio of alcoholic beer sales vs. non-alcoholic beer sales.  The fact that alcoholic beer vastly outsells it's non-alcoholic cousin is demonstrative that consumers do indeed want the feeling, however significant, that alcohol provides.  Of course taste will be a major factor, but taste can be chemically reproduced.  I would wager a case of your favorite beer that the majority of beer drinkers would choose alcoholic beer over a non-alcoholic beer even if it tasted the same.  

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Here in Ontario, as in most Canadian provinces, alcoholic beverages are not sold in grocery or convenience stores (except perhaps in small isolated communities).

I'm not a beer drinker myself - but I don't object to others' moderate drinking. Here's what BalmungSama is talking about: The Beer Store

"The Beer Store" is always well known enough in any community to serve as a landmark when giving directions  .

I checked it out and found it wanting, especially when it comes to the artisan world-class beers now produced in the States. I wonder if this is the result of (a) Canadian tastes, (b) provincialism, or (c) typical government operations.

[biro]

Pointless aside: anybody tried kvass? It kind of tastes like bread. 

[JamesRottnek]

OK, I drink beer during non fasting periods, so some people may label me a hypocrite for saying this. But I would recommend that you not work at the "beer store." Alcoholism is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Even though moderate alcohol consumption is indeed a Christian liberty, I don't think we should facilitate the sale and spread of any product that could potentially be addictive and destructive.

I suggest you try to find employment elsewhere, even if it means less pay. Consider this: how would you feel about the person who sold alcohol to the drunk driver that killed your loved one? Sure, it's ultimately the drunk driver's fault, but perhaps he would not have gotten drunk if no one had been there to sell him the alcohol. Yes, I know the argument, "Well he'd just buy it from somebody else." But as Orthodox Christians we should be above reproach and do our best not to contribute to evil.

If you have to ask the question, then obviously there is some doubt in your mind. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Just my two cents, FWIW.

(BTW, props to Peter for taking a stand on the sale of pornography. I think that's outstanding. Seriously!)is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families.



Selam

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada, but in many US states it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone who's visibly intoxicated, and a store can be held liable for anything the drunk does in his drunkenness (e.g., drunk driving) for violating that law. I've had to call the police (911) a few times to report someone who drove out of the parking lot after I refused to sell him beer because he appeared drunk.

Also, your logic would rule out someone working in a pharmacy, since many pharmaceuticals can be addictive and destructive, particularly pain killers like oxycontin.

His logic would also rule out selling food--because gluttony is a serious problem that takes its toll on countless individuals and families. Or selling internet service, or indeed doing anything to maintain its infrastructure, as there has never been a better or more convenient tool for the pornography and the exercise of lust in the history of the human race. And while we're there, what about cell phones, since texting while driving has been proven to be at least as deadly as drinking while driving. Teach science and someone will use what you've taught to attack theism.

Again, I will point out that food is necessary while alcohol is not. So this is a false comaprison. Alcoholic beverages are specifically intended to intoxicate, and even mild consumption of alcohol intoxicates slightly. The purpose of the internet is not to promote pornograpy, although the proliferation of pornography is certainly an unfortunate by product of the internet. And food is essential to our survival, even though many people abuse food. So there is a huge difference between selling a product which is designed to intoxicate and selling food, medicine, or tools and instruments that are quite necessary and essential to our daily lives.

I could turn your logic on its head and argue that it's morally ok to sell pornography since many married couples use porn to "spice up" their marriage. Just because some people abuse pornography doesn't mean those who sell pornography should be held responsible. (But let me clarify that I am not making a moral equivalence between alcohol and pornogrpahy. Alcohol is not evil in and of itself like pornography, and there is no sin in moderate alcohol consumption. However, alcohol is designed to intoxicate, and it is not essential or necessary to our survival or to our daily lives.)

As I said earlier, I enjoy beer during non fasting seasons and rejoice in that Christian liberty. However, I would never sell alcohol since I am aware that I could be contributing to the suffering and misery of others. But that's just my opinion.


Selam

Alcohol is not designed to intoxicate. The fact that many abuse alcohol does not mean that alcohol is designed to be abused.

Mild intoxication is not abuse (maybe I should use a different word than intoxication though.) If alcohol were not designed to alter consciousness in some way, then everyone would simply drink grape juice and near beer.


Selam

Grape juice and near-beer do not taste like wine and beer.

[biro]

Fruit juice is good. It isn't liquor, though, you're right. I do get Kedem Grape Juice sometimes, just because it's tasty over ice.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Pointless aside: anybody tried kvass? It kind of tastes like bread. 

Ugh.  I tried it once at Pascha.  Remove the letters 'k' and 'v' and that's the sensation I got from it.

[dzheremi]

You infidel. Kvass is delicious.

[genesisone]

Here in Ontario, as in most Canadian provinces, alcoholic beverages are not sold in grocery or convenience stores (except perhaps in small isolated communities).

I'm not a beer drinker myself - but I don't object to others' moderate drinking. Here's what BalmungSama is talking about: The Beer Store

"The Beer Store" is always well known enough in any community to serve as a landmark when giving directions  .

I checked it out and found it wanting, especially when it comes to the artisan world-class beers now produced in the States. I wonder if this is the result of (a) Canadian tastes, (b) provincialism, or (c) typical government operations.

I'll let the Canadian beer drinkers respond to that  .

[Sauron]

This beer does not even bother to hide its infernal nature, putting the Evil One right on the label:



Have fun with your beer because there will be none in the lake of burning flame.

[KShaft]

This beer does not even bother to hide its infernal nature, putting the Evil One right on the label:



Have fun with your beer because there will be none in the lake of burning flame.

Maudite means damned by the way.... I dont drink this because of that, but have a sister product of theirs Don De Dieu, which means 'Gift of G-d' in the fridge.

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