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Author Topic: Issue Of Masonic Imagery In Orthodoxy  (Read 3136 times) Average Rating: 0
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Studying_Orthodoxy
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« on: May 28, 2012, 11:43:55 AM »

Hello,

Something which will stop me from considering converting is the wide use of masonic imagery inside the Orthodox churches. I have noticed that the all seeing eye and skull and cross bones is very common. If anyone has any knowledge of Freemasonry or the New World Order then they will know that such symbols are give aways that something is not as it should be.

You may think I am insane but I believe what I believe.

Please may you explain these symbols in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »

Hello,

Something which will stop me from considering converting is the wide use of masonic imagery inside the Orthodox churches. I have noticed that the all seeing eye and skull and cross bones is very common. If anyone has any knowledge of Freemasonry or the New World Order then they will know that such symbols are give aways that something is not as it should be.

You may think I am insane but I believe what I believe.

Please may you explain these symbols in the Orthodox Church?

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 11:52:43 AM »

A brief answer:

The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 12:34:22 PM »

Hello,

Something which will stop me from considering converting is the wide use of masonic imagery inside the Orthodox churches. I have noticed that the all seeing eye and skull and cross bones is very common. If anyone has any knowledge of Freemasonry or the New World Order then they will know that such symbols are give aways that something is not as it should be.

You may think I am insane but I believe what I believe.

Please may you explain these symbols in the Orthodox Church?

This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:34:58 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 12:39:19 PM »

Hello,

Something which will stop me from considering converting is the wide use of masonic imagery inside the Orthodox churches. I have noticed that the all seeing eye and skull and cross bones is very common. If anyone has any knowledge of Freemasonry or the New World Order then they will know that such symbols are give aways that something is not as it should be.

You may think I am insane but I believe what I believe.

Please may you explain these symbols in the Orthodox Church?

Unfortunately the all seeing eye symbol has made its way into SOME (VERY FEW) of the Orthodox churches.  It is not in ALL of the Orthodox churches and is very limited.   The skull and bones symbol represents death.  This would often be found UNDER Christ on the cross, representing the death below Christ, or sometimes hell in iconography.

The skulls and bones are used in negative contrasts rather than positive.  Such as the Skull and Bones society at Yale, where the symbol is used as a "good thing" and "promoted".

I'm very familiar with Free Masonry, the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, NWO and all that.   It's really not a part of Orthodoxy.  Symbols do get slipped in, but not in the core of the faith.   
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 12:58:50 PM »

A brief answer:

The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.
I've also heard of the dual symbolism that the skull and bones at the foot of the cross represents Christ's victory over death through the cross. (Could it also mean that Christ has defeated Freemasonry? Wink)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 01:16:32 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 01:17:25 PM »

The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

I can see how Ortho-sticklers might object to the iconography of the eye, but at any rate it's rare even in the west. The examples I know of are in central Europe.
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 01:21:44 PM »

Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 01:52:51 PM »

Quote
Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
Quote
The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

Quote
The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

Quote
This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

Insert Quote

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

Quote
Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 02:04:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hello,

Something which will stop me from considering converting is the wide use of masonic imagery inside the Orthodox churches. I have noticed that the all seeing eye and skull and cross bones is very common. If anyone has any knowledge of Freemasonry or the New World Order then they will know that such symbols are give aways that something is not as it should be.

You may think I am insane but I believe what I believe.

Please may you explain these symbols in the Orthodox Church?

Both Free Masonry, the various related political cults, and the Orthodox Church all draw upon the same rich well of inspiration, the Holy Bible.  Free Masonry is entirely saturated with Biblical imagery and symbolism, down to every detail.  Essentially, at its core, this conspiracy is recreation (or perpetuation depending on whose doing the telling) of the Old Testament worship.  Orthodox IS the Old Testament worship in  perpetuity, sanctified by Grace in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, and so we naturally will see the same imagery and symbolism present.  However, Freemasonry is NOT Orthodox, realistically its a kind of Jeffersonian Deistic Judaism.  Further, in regards to running the world, well, conspiracies are what they are, mythic interpretations of some grains of truth and fact.  There is always truth in myth, but there is always hyperbole as well Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 02:08:30 PM »

It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Should we abandon any symbols that are used by others?
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2012, 02:15:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Should we abandon any symbols that are used by others?

No but he is right to be concerned out of ignorance and its a good opportunity to learn. If we see symbols which are adopted by nefarious, dangerous, or violent organizations (from governments and militias to cults and heresies) we should at the least investigate within our parishes the direct or indirect connections.  We know that Orthodox are not caught up in some kind of conspiracy, and yet, we should still be cautious in our spirit to like Apostle John said, "Test the spirits."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 02:16:18 PM »

Quote
Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
Quote
The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

Quote
The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

Quote
This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

Insert Quote

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

Quote
Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.
That you could never accept them? I think that's your problem, not ours. Rather than seek to condemn them for what you take them to mean, maybe you should spend more time trying to learn what they really mean.
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 06:01:15 PM »

I'm very familiar with the whole NWO/Freemasons/Illuminati thing, I've done quite a bit of reading about it and I can even say that I believe in some of the "conspiracy theories".

Unfortunately some of the imagery that is used by these groups has slipped into some Orthodox churches. I have no doubt that some Orthodox hierarchs have been Freemasons, that masonic symbols are used in churches, etc., but that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church endorses masonry. In fact, the Orthodox Church is vehemently against Freemasonry.

The skull and crossbones and its use in Orthodox iconography is being misinterpreted. As stated before on this thread, whenever a skull and crossbones is depicted, it is usually shown under the feet of Christ in a crucifix. This symbolizes Christ's victory over death. In no way does this use of the skull and crossbones promote masonic ideas or glorify death. And yes, I am sure.
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 08:26:50 PM »

Quote
Both Free Masonry, the various related political cults, and the Orthodox Church all draw upon the same rich well of inspiration, the Holy Bible.  Free Masonry is entirely saturated with Biblical imagery and symbolism, down to every detail.  Essentially, at its core, this conspiracy is recreation (or perpetuation depending on whose doing the telling) of the Old Testament worship.  Orthodox IS the Old Testament worship in  perpetuity, sanctified by Grace in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, and so we naturally will see the same imagery and symbolism present.  However, Freemasonry is NOT Orthodox, realistically its a kind of Jeffersonian Deistic Judaism.

We all know what they worship at the higher degrees. Please explain how the all seeing eye is in any way a Biblical image and furthermore why would such anti-Christian people use Bible imagery?

Quote
Further, in regards to running the world, well, conspiracies are what they are, mythic interpretations of some grains of truth and fact.  There is always truth in myth, but there is always hyperbole as well

If there is truth in myth then I need say no more.

Quote
Should we abandon any symbols that are used by others?

When they become almost exclusively associated with a group of people then yes of course.

Quote
That you could never accept them? I think that's your problem, not ours. Rather than seek to condemn them for what you take them to mean, maybe you should spend more time trying to learn what they really mean.

And how do you know what they really mean? How do we know the church is not controlled by Freemasonry?

Quote
I'm very familiar with the whole NWO/Freemasons/Illuminati thing, I've done quite a bit of reading about it and I can even say that I believe in some of the "conspiracy theories".

Good, every religious person should be aware of it.

Quote
Unfortunately some of the imagery that is used by these groups has slipped into some Orthodox churches. I have no doubt that some Orthodox hierarchs have been Freemasons, that masonic symbols are used in churches, etc., but that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church endorses masonry. In fact, the Orthodox Church is vehemently against Freemasonry.

In that case some Orthodox people should get their patriarchs to condemn such symbols.

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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 08:35:27 PM »

Quote
Both Free Masonry, the various related political cults, and the Orthodox Church all draw upon the same rich well of inspiration, the Holy Bible.  Free Masonry is entirely saturated with Biblical imagery and symbolism, down to every detail.  Essentially, at its core, this conspiracy is recreation (or perpetuation depending on whose doing the telling) of the Old Testament worship.  Orthodox IS the Old Testament worship in  perpetuity, sanctified by Grace in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, and so we naturally will see the same imagery and symbolism present.  However, Freemasonry is NOT Orthodox, realistically its a kind of Jeffersonian Deistic Judaism.

We all know what they worship at the higher degrees. Please explain how the all seeing eye is in any way a Biblical image and furthermore why would such anti-Christian people use Bible imagery?

Quote
Further, in regards to running the world, well, conspiracies are what they are, mythic interpretations of some grains of truth and fact.  There is always truth in myth, but there is always hyperbole as well

If there is truth in myth then I need say no more.

Quote
Should we abandon any symbols that are used by others?

When they become almost exclusively associated with a group of people then yes of course.

Quote
That you could never accept them? I think that's your problem, not ours. Rather than seek to condemn them for what you take them to mean, maybe you should spend more time trying to learn what they really mean.

And how do you know what they really mean? How do we know the church is not controlled by Freemasonry?

Quote
I'm very familiar with the whole NWO/Freemasons/Illuminati thing, I've done quite a bit of reading about it and I can even say that I believe in some of the "conspiracy theories".

Good, every religious person should be aware of it.

Quote
Unfortunately some of the imagery that is used by these groups has slipped into some Orthodox churches. I have no doubt that some Orthodox hierarchs have been Freemasons, that masonic symbols are used in churches, etc., but that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church endorses masonry. In fact, the Orthodox Church is vehemently against Freemasonry.

In that case some Orthodox people should get their patriarchs to condemn such symbols.


How do you know you're seeing things correctly?
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 08:38:40 PM »

Quote
In that case some Orthodox people should get their patriarchs to condemn such symbols.

The skull at the foot of the Cross is not a masonic symbol. It predates freemasonry by many centuries. It is a reference to the physical place where Christ was crucified, and its meaning is inextricably linked to the salvation of mankind. Orthodox hymnography is full of references to the redemption of Adam (Adam being representative of all humanity) through Christ's Passion and Resurrection.

As for the eye in the triangle, the Church has indeed, and more than once, denounced metaphysical representations of God as inferior and contrary to iconography as the expression and proclamation of the Incarnation. Yet, people, either in honest ignorance, or wilful disobedience, have, at times, not adhered to this.
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2012, 08:44:25 PM »

Quote
Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
Quote
The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

Quote
The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

Quote
This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

Insert Quote

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

Quote
Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Well IF the masons did originate out of the Kabbalists, before the Kabbalah was compiled, the Jewish esoteric teachings of it would have existed before Christianity.   But who knows.
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2012, 09:54:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
Quote
The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

Quote
The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

Quote
This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

Insert Quote

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

Quote
Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Well IF the masons did originate out of the Kabbalists, before the Kabbalah was compiled, the Jewish esoteric teachings of it would have existed before Christianity.   But who knows.

Actually it didn't.  Much of the Jewish esoteric cults evolved after the 10th and 11th centuries well after in in part a response to Christianity.  Masonry probably originates after the Crusades in France, and is a bit of both Judaic and Christian elements, though originally was part of the Catholic Church until 1307.  Masons originated from the Church and the Templars and Hospitlars, and later incorporated Kabbalist influences when they went underground in the 14th century to later revive in Anglo society in the 16th century mainstream.. The problem with Judaism is in reality it is not ancient.  Most of what we have today in Judaism is no older than the 9th century, and much of the Judaic sources from before that are actually from the Church.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2012, 10:42:02 PM »

And how do you know what they really mean? How do we know the church is not controlled by Freemasonry?

How do we know the world is not controlled by hyper-intellegent pan-dimensional beings that protrude into our dimension as mice?

The skull represents Death, Adam, and Golgotha, and the Cross staked into it represents Christ's victory. IC XC NIKA. That's all there is to it.

As for the All-Seeing Eye, it has only been a standard Masonic symbol since 1797 (http://www.msana.com/eyeinpyramid.asp). You find it in Christian art far earlier than this.

But of course, if one sees a conspiracy around every corner, it can never be disproved, no matter how much evidence there is. Yet these are the facts and there's really nothing more to it.

I'm more worried about Orthodox folk beliefs in werewolves and stuff than the All-Seeing Eye and Freemasons.
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2012, 11:20:57 PM »

The All-Seeing Eye is actually a depiction of the holy trinity. The triangle represents the father, son and holy spirit.
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2012, 11:44:19 PM »

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Both Free Masonry, the various related political cults, and the Orthodox Church all draw upon the same rich well of inspiration, the Holy Bible.  Free Masonry is entirely saturated with Biblical imagery and symbolism, down to every detail.  Essentially, at its core, this conspiracy is recreation (or perpetuation depending on whose doing the telling) of the Old Testament worship.  Orthodox IS the Old Testament worship in  perpetuity, sanctified by Grace in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, and so we naturally will see the same imagery and symbolism present.  However, Freemasonry is NOT Orthodox, realistically its a kind of Jeffersonian Deistic Judaism.

We all know what they worship at the higher degrees. Please explain how the all seeing eye is in any way a Biblical image and furthermore why would such anti-Christian people use Bible imagery?

Quote
Further, in regards to running the world, well, conspiracies are what they are, mythic interpretations of some grains of truth and fact.  There is always truth in myth, but there is always hyperbole as well

If there is truth in myth then I need say no more.

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Should we abandon any symbols that are used by others?

When they become almost exclusively associated with a group of people then yes of course.

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That you could never accept them? I think that's your problem, not ours. Rather than seek to condemn them for what you take them to mean, maybe you should spend more time trying to learn what they really mean.

And how do you know what they really mean? How do we know the church is not controlled by Freemasonry?

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I'm very familiar with the whole NWO/Freemasons/Illuminati thing, I've done quite a bit of reading about it and I can even say that I believe in some of the "conspiracy theories".

Good, every religious person should be aware of it.

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Unfortunately some of the imagery that is used by these groups has slipped into some Orthodox churches. I have no doubt that some Orthodox hierarchs have been Freemasons, that masonic symbols are used in churches, etc., but that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church endorses masonry. In fact, the Orthodox Church is vehemently against Freemasonry.

In that case some Orthodox people should get their patriarchs to condemn such symbols.



In the recent history of Orthodoxy, one particular patriarch, Patriarch Meletius (in the early 20th Century) was a Freemason. He was even given a masonic funeral. Before Meletius became Patriarch, when he was Archbishop Meletius of Athens and North and South America, he caused a lot of grief to holy ones of God, such as St. Nicholas Planas. (Read his biography by HTM for more information).

Yes, Orthodoxy has condemned Freemasonry, and it is a sad day when any of our clergy, bishops or patriarchs become entangled in it.
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 08:20:40 AM »

The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

I can see how Ortho-sticklers might object to the iconography of the eye, but at any rate it's rare even in the west. The examples I know of are in central Europe.


There's one in the church in my mother's home town north west of Hannover. I can't remember the exact age of the church but 13th century sounds about right - certainly the town dates from then. Obviously it was Roman Catholic when built though it's now Lutheran. The eye was covered up at some point (no idea why - the Lutherans certainly left the statuary intact) and was uncovered after some storm damage when my mother was young. One thing you can say with certainty (unless you actually believe the mythology they've made up about their history, which has always struck me as about as reliable as the 'Trail of Blood') is that it pre-dates and has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

James
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 12:03:53 AM »

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The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 12:15:36 AM »

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The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.


Well, my forefathers, who fought in the American Revolution, wrote that most of the planning of the American Revolution took place in Masonic lodges. Yes, some of my relatives were masons, and so were Thomas Jefferson and some of our Founding Fathers, if not most of them.

Hieromonk Andre, who was a member of the MP, stated that when he traveled across the USA with his bishop to visit the American parishes, there was one parish that was dying, and the parish priest celebrated a very lukewarm Divine Liturgy. The Bishop and the Hieromonk both noticed a masonic ring on his finger.
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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 02:49:19 AM »

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The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.


Well, my forefathers, who fought in the American Revolution, wrote that most of the planning of the American Revolution took place in Masonic lodges. Yes, some of my relatives were masons, and so were Thomas Jefferson and some of our Founding Fathers, if not most of them.

Hieromonk Andre, who was a member of the MP, stated that when he traveled across the USA with his bishop to visit the American parishes, there was one parish that was dying, and the parish priest celebrated a very lukewarm Divine Liturgy. The Bishop and the Hieromonk both noticed a masonic ring on his finger.

I can understand the planning taking place behind the closed doors of a lodge; I mean its kept secret what goes on in there so it might have been seen as a good way to deter spies and the leaking of information. Even if an Englishman had been able to get into the lodge on account of his being a Mason I'm sure everybody present would have been sworn to secrecy outside the walls of the lodge, this still stopping leaks as Masons take their oaths very seriously (or at least they used to back in the day).

And I keep reading that story about the dying parish, but there is never a name or a location - just a random place. It's like the story is made to be applicable at St. Elsewhere in Anytown USA instead of an actual happening at a real parish. If it did indeed truly happen I would love to read about the parish and the clergy to see what eventually happened - did they get a new priest? did the parish finally just die off? was it really due to the priest being a mason of just his lack of faith or other circumstance? There is much missing from the story and I would like to see if there is more...
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« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 02:46:35 PM »

I've made these observations before on this subject of Masons and I feel that I have to reiterate them.

Apart from the family of the Discovery Network cable television channels, poorly written books by Dan Brown and an occasional NatGeo piece on cable TV, how many of us would ever think about or discuss Freemasonry? (Oh yeah - the equally idiotic National Treasure movies with Nicholas Cage..very believable - NOT.)

Yet, within the fevered imaginations of some, often those who also buy into conspiracy theories and Bigfoot sightings, how relevant are they in our modern society? Decades ago, being a Mason was viewed by some in the immigrant communities as a way to 'buy in' to the American dream of upward mobility or class mobility in some parts of Europe. But since the end of the second world war, the membership and influence of Masons has diminished considerably. Seriously, how many of you really know of any serious Masons under the age of sixty? Just how 'secret' can a 'secret' society remain in today's world of the internets, Facebook, iPhones etc.... In town and city after town and city one can find underutilized or abandoned buildings which once housed large clubs of Masons, Scottish Rite temples, Kalurah temples etc..etc... - in downtown Binghamton, NY, my hometown, the sturdy, size of a city block 1930's Temple has been vacant since I was in high school in the 1970's and is a decrepit, falling apart hulk. The equally large Kalurah temple in town, which once showcased boxing matches, basketball tournaments and circuses has been an Assembly of God church for as long as I can remember going back to the 1960's.

Rotary and Kiwanis have adapted to the modern world, admitted minorities and women for decades and they have replaced the philanthropic purposes that many Masonic lodges used to provide.

The fellows on the little bikes in parades are fewer and fewer and older and older.

I'm not saying that there are no more 'true believers' out there, but their import and influence is grossly exaggerated and they serve as an excuse not to look at real issues.
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« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 02:48:40 PM »

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.


Amen. Everybody loves a good paranoid theory- they're entertaining, like a roller-coaster ride, but rarely are they based on truth.
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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 03:54:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.


Amen. Everybody loves a good paranoid theory- they're entertaining, like a roller-coaster ride, but rarely are they based on truth.

I'd argue the opposite, there is always some Truth underlying both gossip and paranoia.  In fact, it seems that from the very beginning, the Devil's biggest secret is in act an open secret, and that is to say that evil is always out on the open and fairly obvious sometimes.  We veil it in conspiracy, gossip, and paranoia to make it easier to swallow the hard realities that these mythical versions attest to or symbolize. Sometimes myth conveys the MOST truth about our human experience.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2012, 04:30:18 PM »


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?




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« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2012, 05:19:03 PM »


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?



Adolf wasn't, but the time-traveling Nazi scientists were. Obviously.
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« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2012, 10:02:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
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Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
Quote
The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

Quote
The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

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This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

Insert Quote

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

Quote
Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Well IF the masons did originate out of the Kabbalists, before the Kabbalah was compiled, the Jewish esoteric teachings of it would have existed before Christianity.   But who knows.

Actually it didn't.  Much of the Jewish esoteric cults evolved after the 10th and 11th centuries well after in in part a response to Christianity.  Masonry probably originates after the Crusades in France, and is a bit of both Judaic and Christian elements, though originally was part of the Catholic Church until 1307.  Masons originated from the Church and the Templars and Hospitlars, and later incorporated Kabbalist influences when they went underground in the 14th century to later revive in Anglo society in the 16th century mainstream.. The problem with Judaism is in reality it is not ancient.  Most of what we have today in Judaism is no older than the 9th century, and much of the Judaic sources from before that are actually from the Church.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I've also read that many Masons trace the roots into Gnosticism.   If you look at the Gnostic texts and historical writings of the Gnostics, there are some eerie similarities too.   There are a bunch of "origins" on the Masons.  I personally give the most interest towards the Gnostic theory.

The Knights templar were a branch that came far after Masonry.
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2012, 10:04:05 PM »


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?



Adolf wasn't, but the time-traveling Nazi scientists were. Obviously.

The symbol came from Theosophy in Tibet, and this was the symbol of death.    Either it was an unrelated coincidence, or plotted...
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2012, 10:11:57 PM »

Also consider that some EO bishops HAVE been Freemasons.  Some were even deposed.  Things happen, and I would think the symbols would be generally ignored.  As I said, and others around here will attest, I do not have love for the Masonic faith, and if I really thought it was part of Orthodoxy, I'd be announcing it with trumpets.

Rather,
I think it just slips in there, and there are some EO Masons who are misdirected (clergy included).   

I'm sure sinister acts have been had in some of the architecture/paintings/icons, but it would be the err of one, and not the body nor the belief of the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2012, 10:16:44 PM »


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?



Adolf wasn't, but the time-traveling Nazi scientists were. Obviously.

The symbol came from Theosophy in Tibet, and this was the symbol of death.    Either it was an unrelated coincidence, or plotted...

Pffffftttt...
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2012, 10:21:24 PM »

The swastika is older than Theosophy. And Theosophy wasn't originated in Tibet...
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2012, 10:35:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?






Interestingly enough, there is some evidence to suggest a European presence in Lalibela during construction.  Of course, there are indeed other instances of the Swastika in Ethiopia which predate the Lalibela Churches, but it is an interesting coincidence none-the-less for Lalibela to be brought up in a discussion about Freemasonry and the Templars, when there may in fact be a connection.  


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2012, 10:50:59 PM »

The Freemasons aren't old enough to have been the Genesis of any of this symbolism.
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2012, 11:25:42 PM »

Quote
The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

You seem to fail to recognize irony, but in any case there's little hope of getting anywhere on this if we have to work through so basic a paranoid falsehood as the claim that "the United States was founded on masonry." You can find dozens upon dozens of references to the effect that Thomson was not, as far as anyone knows of course, a mason, and that there's no masonic significance to the seal (and while you're at it, you can look at some of the designs he rejected too). A few prominent FFs were masons, but that's it.

What's satanic in this is the way this preposterous nonsense is repeated by churchmen who really ought to know better.


Well, my forefathers, who fought in the American Revolution, wrote that most of the planning of the American Revolution took place in Masonic lodges. Yes, some of my relatives were masons, and so were Thomas Jefferson and some of our Founding Fathers, if not most of them.

Hieromonk Andre, who was a member of the MP, stated that when he traveled across the USA with his bishop to visit the American parishes, there was one parish that was dying, and the parish priest celebrated a very lukewarm Divine Liturgy. The Bishop and the Hieromonk both noticed a masonic ring on his finger.

I had noticed that in the past two centuries the RCC was  adamantly against the Masons, and yet most of our Founding Fathers, who were highly devout  were Masons, so it aroused my curiosity.  Well it seems the Masons in Europe is not really the same organization as it is here.   At the time of our revolution the Masons were looked upon favorably and considered a charitable organization.  It all changed when one of them attacked a girl a few decades later and it became a big scandal. 

I do know that when the Greek immigrants came and they were being persecuted by the Klu Klux Klan, a judge told them to form an organization and unite it with the Masons as protection...which they did.   Wink
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2012, 11:32:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


How about this one from one of the monolithic churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia -- 12th century. Crazy Adolf was not there.. was he?




Interestingly enough, there is some evidence to suggest a European presence in Lalibela during construction.  Of course, there are indeed other instances of the Swastika in Ethiopia which predate the Lalibela Churches, but it is an interesting coincidence none-the-less for Lalibela to be brought up in a discussion about Freemasonry and the Templars, when there may in fact be a connection.  


stay blessed,
habte selassie

The Swastika, (crooked cross),  can be found in ancient Greece and has been used throughout history. The Tsarina Alexandra wore a ring with the Swastika.  It seems to have been a popular good luck symbol at the time.  Hmmm! I wonder if Rasputin gave it to her?  Shocked
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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2012, 11:40:27 PM »

As the Master of a Masonic lodge, I just wanted to confirm that we hail the Dark Lord and I was sent to convert to Orthodoxy to invade it from the inside. Sorry about that.
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2012, 12:19:02 AM »

As the Master of a Masonic lodge, I just wanted to confirm that we hail the Dark Lord and I was sent to convert to Orthodoxy to invade it from the inside. Sorry about that.


You had me at Dark Lord...  Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2012, 11:49:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
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Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?
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The eye in the triangle is a motif which is contrary to the principles and canons of iconography. It unfortunately found its way into churches and as a motif in icons as a result of western influence which spread into the Orthodox world from about the 17th century onwards. Whether or not it is masonic in origin is a moot point, as it goes against the principle of portraying God in His revealed form, i.e, as the incarnate Christ.

So then these images were not originally in Orthodoxy but come from the outside?

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The skull and bones at the foot of many crosses has nothing to do with the occult or other nefarious practices. It represents Golgotha, the hill on which the cross of Christ was planted. Golgotha in Hebrew means place of the skull (as attested to in three Gospels), and the place was regarded by the Jews as the burial place of Adam.

Are you sure?

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This depends.

Some say Freemasonry was from the Cabalists that later went into the gnostic front.  Long after formed into the knights templar, then illuminati etc.    Some say it stretched out of the Knights Templar.

Which existed first, the Orthodox Church or Freemasonry?

So again, these symbols came later?

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The eye is not a masonic emblem, and while I'm at it the Great Seal of the USA isn't masonic either. As far as anyone knows, Charles Thomson, who formulated the seal, was not a mason. Masons did eventually start using the eye, but it's pretty clear from the history of this that they borrowed it from the great seal because It's So Cool.

Are you joking? The United States was founded on Masonry. How is it a cool symbol either? It is a satanic symbol, I am very sorry to tell you.

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Something I've noticed about Masons and similar orders (e.g. Rosicrucians) is that anything in history that's remotely cool they'll claim as their own, whether it's a symbol or a person.


It does not matter. The fact is that the symbols used by Masons are so offensive due to the association that they can never be accepted.

Well IF the masons did originate out of the Kabbalists, before the Kabbalah was compiled, the Jewish esoteric teachings of it would have existed before Christianity.   But who knows.

Actually it didn't.  Much of the Jewish esoteric cults evolved after the 10th and 11th centuries well after in in part a response to Christianity.  Masonry probably originates after the Crusades in France, and is a bit of both Judaic and Christian elements, though originally was part of the Catholic Church until 1307.  Masons originated from the Church and the Templars and Hospitlars, and later incorporated Kabbalist influences when they went underground in the 14th century to later revive in Anglo society in the 16th century mainstream.. The problem with Judaism is in reality it is not ancient.  Most of what we have today in Judaism is no older than the 9th century, and much of the Judaic sources from before that are actually from the Church.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I've also read that many Masons trace the roots into Gnosticism.   If you look at the Gnostic texts and historical writings of the Gnostics, there are some eerie similarities too.   There are a bunch of "origins" on the Masons.  I personally give the most interest towards the Gnostic theory.

The Knights templar were a branch that came far after Masonry.

        Well sure, if by Gnosticism you mean the Greco-Platonic/Pythagorean and Egyptian Mystery cult's whom also claim to have received at least some of there teachings from even older sources. I haven't seen too many references to the Gnostic-Christian flavor though, it gets even more murky when we remind ourselves that the "Gnostics" never called themselves Gnostics. It became a shady umbrella-term used in the same way pagan is.
       The Knight's Templar are the most popular claim to fame amongst the masons and some other off-shoots, that i may or may not affiliate with, they (off-shoots) cite the Bavarian Illuminati as their ancestors. Some of these claims are quite real in one sense or another, some not so much. As for the Kabbalah, i do contend that certain books of the Hebrew Bible were written by what we might call "Kabbalists", but that's unimportant because a good portion of the jewish kabbalah was also adapted from those Pythagorean and Egyptian schools (remember that Pythagoras claimed to learn his shtick' while he was in Egypt.)
       When you really dig into the lineage claims of these esoteric "schools" you find a lot of arrows pointing back to the east, whether or not these claims are based in historical fact is not always that clear.
 
The swastika is older than Theosophy. And Theosophy wasn't originated in Tibet...

That's not what Ms. Blavatsky says. Wink
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 11:50:10 PM by Babalon » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2012, 08:32:10 PM »

Lawl at "lineage".

Just like all the "authentic ninja schools" headed by American white people.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2012, 08:45:36 PM »

Lawl at "lineage".

Just like all the "authentic ninja schools" headed by American white people.

Not all of them claim to have a physical master to student line of teaching but instead invoke a "spiritual lineage" and attempt, or claim to attempt, to carry on the tradition. Due to the "Wandering Bishops", some of these adepts share a heritage with the orthodox. It seems to me that the Church is no less lawl-worthy than these silly occultists.
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