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Author Topic: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.  (Read 2558 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 12:01:54 AM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel
among which was not their embrace with their spouse.

You can read several lives of the saints, of the proof of the sanctity from an early age, after which they had children, and not by parthenogenesis....  Hence we don't need to be in their bedrooms.
Indeed! We glorify the memory of Ss. Joachim and Anna for what they helped create late in life. And what of Zechariah and Elizabeth?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 12:05:05 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2012, 12:03:36 AM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 12:05:00 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »


I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

You say that in a way that can be very misleading.  I would like you to clarify yourself and give me your interpretation of what Saint Seraphim meant? 
why don't you first quote him, and then tell us what you think he means.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.

I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

Of course Porn and prostitutes abound there,  otherwise there wouldn't be so many saints.  It's God's way of calling the people to repent.
I don't recall Sodom and Gomorrah being held up as examples of repentance.

The Greek Church is more or less underground since it is a very secular society...as is the rest of Europe.  But under those circumstances, Christians are usually more sincere and  devout.  Twenty years ago the monasteries were empty and falling apart, but in the past decade they have been growing full force.   I know of some nuns who alone managed to restore and start about sixteen of them.  They are not the only ones.   

Quote
They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.
I have not heard of any, although I do know that Elder Ephraim is a saint, otherwise he would not have been able to accomplish what he did and I feel the Elder Joseph of Saint Nektarios Monastery might also be a saint.   I have a cousin that's a monk and something unusual occurred when he was a baby, which makes me wonder if he might become a saint.  He has a very pure soul.  angel 
You can start here:

the central one, St. Innocent, you can read his life and see the sanctity he achieved while begetting his children.
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« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2012, 04:27:58 AM »

Samples of recently canonised saints:

A married couple:



and he was a father of her:
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« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2012, 02:11:40 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! Shocked

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   Tongue

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« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2012, 02:22:36 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
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No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
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« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2012, 02:28:34 PM »

I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.
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« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2012, 02:51:42 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

 I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth. 

By that logic, so long as a saint doesn't die mid-coitus there was some period of celibacy, and thus your idea of "saintliness" is maintained. So long as married St. X didn't die while giving his wife/ her husband a little of the ol' in-out, then they must be commended for their great heroic virtue in not spending every second of their married lives in the sack.
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2012, 03:27:46 PM »

I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2012, 03:36:44 PM »

I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  Smiley

Let me correct that.  I should have said that a person's passions diminishes according to how much they are willing to sacrifice for Christ.  I should think that the less a person is wrapped up in themselves, the purer and more God like  they become... Wouldn't that constitute a saint?  Huh
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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2012, 05:57:38 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

 I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth. 

By that logic, so long as a saint doesn't die mid-coitus there was some period of celibacy, and thus your idea of "saintliness" is maintained. So long as married St. X didn't die while giving his wife/ her husband a little of the ol' in-out, then they must be commended for their great heroic virtue in not spending every second of their married lives in the sack.

LOL !!!

 laugh laugh laugh

Hilarious! very well said!

I don't get where all this disdain for physical matter comes from among Christians. our creator made us out of physical matter too when he created man. if he found it necessary for us to simply be spiritual beings then there was no point going further after the creation of the angels now is there?  why create us as human beings who are the union of the physical and the spiritual. even in the coming age we expect our bodies to be transfigured bodies, so we are speaking about matter transfigured.

marriage was His idea and his gift, sex was his idea and his gift, the holiness of marriage is his idea and his gift. It seems to me,what we have done with what we are given is a much more likely productive topic of conversation rather than essentially saying its a bad idea in the first place.
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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2012, 06:14:16 PM »

Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2012, 08:17:50 PM »

I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  Smiley

Let me correct that.  I should have said that a person's passions diminishes according to how much they are willing to sacrifice for Christ.  I should think that the less a person is wrapped up in themselves, the purer and more God like  they become... Wouldn't that constitute a saint?  Huh
ISTM, though, that you still consider the desire for the marital embrace to be nothing more than a carnal passion. Why is this?
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! Shocked

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   Tongue



And I didn't misquote you in the least. And no, I have absolutely no prejudice against the Pope or Catholics. Roll Eyes You really couldn't be more off base with that than anything (I visit a Benedictine Abbey pretty frequently when I pass by, heck, I even have St. Benedict's medal with all kinds of Catholic-y stuff on it right next to me).

Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:39:14 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2012, 08:27:58 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.
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« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2012, 08:30:19 PM »

Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?
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« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2012, 10:32:56 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! Shocked

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   Tongue





Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.

Yes I said they didn't live a carnal existence before becoming saints, but that could be three weeks, three months or three decades for that matter.   You misquoted me when you  stated that I said the following in my post:  "Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly."  There's a big difference between that and my statement of not living a carnal existence before becoming saints.

For heavens sake how could I say that saints were holy throughout their lives when Saint Paul was the greatest of sinners?  Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.  I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    Huh

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« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2012, 10:42:33 PM »

Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.
Which is of course nonsense.
I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves,

Or high regard for the Creator.
otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?
because many saints were married persons.  not before.  During.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 10:42:52 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2012, 01:12:20 AM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! Shocked

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   Tongue





Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.

Yes I said they didn't live a carnal existence before becoming saints, but that could be three weeks, three months or three decades for that matter.   You misquoted me when you  stated that I said the following in my post:  "Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly."  There's a big difference between that and my statement of not living a carnal existence before becoming saints.

For heavens sake how could I say that saints were holy throughout their lives when Saint Paul was the greatest of sinners?  Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.
What saint ever advocated celibacy as the only means to sainthood? So far this looks like nothing but a bare assertion on your part, one which you must prove.

  I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    Huh
I don't know who's teaching you about marriage, then, if you can believe that. I can tell you from my married priest's standard wedding homily that the sacrifices a husband and wife must make for each other are among the greatest sacrifices one can make in this life. We're talking about dying to oneself in order to serve the needs of the other, a dying to oneself that he often equates with martyrdom.
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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2012, 07:22:38 AM »

I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    Huh
Well the Church believes it enough to call them "martyrs crowns" that she crowns the married pair as she weds them.
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« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2012, 07:54:53 AM »

What about all the saints who were lay people with normal lives? Not everyone who is glorified was monastic or members of the clergy. Are you saying even those ordinary lay folk were celibate? As an example, I could cite the saint alongside my posts. He was a merchant from Trebizond who was martyred and whose relics are incorrupt. I've no idea if he was married, but he was 30 at the time of his martyrdom, so there's a good chance he was and I very much doubt that 14th century merchants lived celibate lives.

Or how about one I know with certainty was only not celibate but certainly wasn't what I'd call a model of chastity. St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. Despite that he's been glorified, for his great piety and as a defender of the faith.

James
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2012, 08:30:52 AM »

What about all the saints who were lay people with normal lives? Not everyone who is glorified was monastic or members of the clergy. Are you saying even those ordinary lay folk were celibate? As an example, I could cite the saint alongside my posts. He was a merchant from Trebizond who was martyred and whose relics are incorrupt. I've no idea if he was married, but he was 30 at the time of his martyrdom, so there's a good chance he was and I very much doubt that 14th century merchants lived celibate lives.

Or how about one I know with certainty was only not celibate but certainly wasn't what I'd call a model of chastity. St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. Despite that he's been glorified, for his great piety and as a defender of the faith.
That brings up another question: does this sacrifice and ceasing of earthly existence include laying down the sword?  That would eliminate a lot of solider saints, like St. George.  Or could the saints make war, just not love?
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2012, 01:00:05 PM »

Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.


I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said, since you are misleading people and you refused and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit.  I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.

Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood. .But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    Roll Eyes

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:01:36 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2012, 04:53:03 PM »

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2012, 05:43:10 PM »

Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.
O ye of even shorter memory!
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said
that post seems to be missing.
since you are misleading people
I'm not misleading anyone.  Would that you could say the same!
and you refused
I did not
and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit
I can, and have, read his words too.  You don't seem to understand them.  At least I haven't seen any evidence of that, as you haven't linked his words to the topic at hand.
I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.
Since you haven't done anything but quote him, thankfully you have not mislead others.
Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood.
I haven't said a thing about sacrifices I make towards my (ex)wife and family, or towards anyone else for that matter.

I did consider and cite the examples of saints with wives by whom they were begetting a family whom Christ glorified and raised to sainthood.

But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    Roll Eyes

He seems armed for something.
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh
I am just mocking gnoticism and its false god, and its godless and silly myths that sanctity only comes through celibacy, its doctrine of demons which mock the Creator who created them male and female from the beginning.

Speaking of the Spirit (I Timothy 4:)1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless and silly myths.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 05:47:57 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2012, 07:57:25 PM »

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  Angry
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2012, 08:00:33 PM »

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  Angry

Zenovia, I believe that you are well-intentioned, but you are incorrect.  First of all, God desires all of us to be saints, not only some.  Second of all, it is perfectly possible for people in a godly marriage to attain sainthood, without ever giving up having marital relations with each other.  Marital relations are chaste and holy.

This is the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2012, 08:10:50 PM »

Quote
I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

Then you, Zenovia, cannot regard Abraham and Sarah, Zachariah and Elizabeth, or Joachim and Anna as saints, as they ALL had sexual relations after being called by God. And what were the fruits of their unions again?
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« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2012, 08:13:57 PM »

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.
Then you stand condemned by scripture itself, and Christ Himself, Who performed His first miracle blessing by His presence the public celebration of beginning sexual relations.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  Angry
I don't think Arius ever touched a woman. I know that Maceodnius, Nestorius, Eutychus and Sergius never did.  I don't know if Leo touched a woman before he burned an icon.

I do know that God Himself chose St. Innocent before He joined him to his wife,  by whom he begot his children.  I know that SS. Zachariah and Elizabeth walked blameless before God when He Himself chose them to have sexual relations to beget St. John the Forerunner.

You have a very corrupted view of sanctity.  At least, you are expousing a very corrupted view of sanctity.
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« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2012, 08:22:14 PM »

Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.
O ye of even shorter memory!
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said
that post seems to be missing.
since you are misleading people
I'm not misleading anyone.  Would that you could say the same!
and you refused
I did not
and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit
I can, and have, read his words too.  You don't seem to understand them.  At least I haven't seen any evidence of that, as you haven't linked his words to the topic at hand.
I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.
Since you haven't done anything but quote him, thankfully you have not mislead others.
Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood.
I haven't said a thing about sacrifices I make towards my (ex)wife and family, or towards anyone else for that matter.

I did consider and cite the examples of saints with wives by whom they were begetting a family whom Christ glorified and raised to sainthood.

But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    Roll Eyes

He seems armed for something.
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh
I am just mocking gnoticism and its false god, and its godless and silly myths that sanctity only comes through celibacy, its doctrine of demons which mock the Creator who created them male and female from the beginning.

Speaking of the Spirit (I Timothy 4:)1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless and silly myths.

We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.   

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  Tongue
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« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 08:28:08 PM »

Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?
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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 08:31:33 PM »

We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  Tongue
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 08:33:21 PM »

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   Huh

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  Angry

Zenovia, I believe that you are well-intentioned, but you are incorrect.  First of all, God desires all of us to be saints, not only some.  Second of all, it is perfectly possible for people in a godly marriage to attain sainthood, without ever giving up having marital relations with each other.  Marital relations are chaste and holy.

This is the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh
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« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2012, 08:35:11 PM »

We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  Tongue
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.

Aha!  Another misquote and act of calumny...oh that's right, I forgot now a days they're called 'spins'.    So now I'm bringing demons against marriage, isn't it?   Grin
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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2012, 08:37:39 PM »

Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.
 
No, your view is so gnostic.
Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.
then you have departed from the Faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh
given their children, no.
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2012, 08:40:11 PM »

Quote
'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints. I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh

Abraham and Sarah. Zachariah and Elizabeth. Joachim and Anna. All were called by God, and all fulfilled the will of God by conceiving and bearing children, which came to be through sexual relations, not parthenogenesis. The Church extols and magnifies these holy parents, in bringing forth such illustrious fruit. Or, Zenovia, do you not accept what the hymnography and iconography of the Orthodox Church proclaims and espouses, because of your warped view of sexual relations within marriage?
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2012, 08:42:09 PM »

Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh

The monastic life is a special calling.  It is not for everyone.  But everyone is called by God to be a saint.

I have a lot of friends, and even godchildren, that have embraced the monastic life.  But none of them would agree with what you're saying.

Also, as has been pointed out Joachim and Anna were intimate *after* God called them, and are saints.  Zacharias and Elizabeth were intimate after God's calling and are saints.  The idea that saints cannot be intimate after receiving the Holy Spirit is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Marriage is created and blessed by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2012, 08:43:32 PM »

We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  Tongue
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.

Aha!  Another misquote and act of calumny...oh that's right, I forgot now a days they're called 'spins'.    So now I'm bringing demons against marriage, isn't it?   Grin
Nothing has been misquoted, at least by me.  The quote links are all there.  Anyone can read that for themselves.  As scripture says, one forbids marriage to the saints by paying heed to deceitful spirits and embracing that doctrine of demons.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2012, 08:43:45 PM »

Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2012, 08:49:23 PM »

Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh

The monastic life is a special calling.  It is not for everyone.  But everyone is called by God to be a saint.

I have a lot of friends, and even godchildren, that have embraced the monastic life.  But none of them would agree with what you're saying.

Also, as has been pointed out Joachim and Anna were intimate *after* God called them, and are saints.  Zacharias and Elizabeth were intimate after God's calling and are saints.  The idea that saints cannot be intimate after receiving the Holy Spirit is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Marriage is created and blessed by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know.  

Anyway, no one ever said that marriage was not created and blessed by God.  That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.   Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2012, 08:50:33 PM »

Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  Smiley

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2012, 08:51:46 PM »

Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  Smiley
Oh?  The interpret this correctly:
I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God...If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  Angry
I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2012, 08:55:00 PM »

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  Smiley

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2012, 09:00:41 PM »

Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  Smiley

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... Wink
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« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2012, 09:01:48 PM »

Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.
As has been pointed out to you before, that caveat has no meaning, as, despite what you might be suspecting, married people do not have sex 24/7.  Except someone dying in mid-coitus, practically anyone will fit your claim here.

Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....
How do you know?

So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know.

and you do not know when was the last time a saint made love with their spouse.  We do know that for many it was, according to their hagiography and record, after God called them to sanctity.

Anyway, no one ever said that marriage was not created and blessed by God.  That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.   Smiley
As the Germans say "Who says A, must say B."

So, what are you saying?  It seems clear to us.  Is it clear to you?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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