Author Topic: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.  (Read 7102 times)

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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2012, 09:03:03 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2012, 09:03:58 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2012, 09:07:24 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2012, 09:08:42 PM »
...of heretics are curses, and the curses of heretics are blessings
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)
You're right.  Very little in Orthodoxy is defined dogma.

The sanctity of wedlock is one such defined dogma.

So no, Zenovia has no Orthodox reason to take the position she does, as it is opposed to Orthodoxy as expressed, among other things, in the insistence of a married clergy, the wedding rite, and the glorification of married saints.

The gnosticism Zenovia has adopted is one of those things the "Eastern Catholics" took up when it submitted to the Vatican's yoke.  "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has the believer with an infidel?"

 ;)
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2012, 09:11:15 PM »
Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)
I would be a little surprised if you agree with Zenovia's claim that "sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy."

Marriage is a sacrament/"Holy matrimony." Holy = Lat. sanctus.

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

The sanctity of wedlock is one such defined dogma.
+1
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:15:19 PM by xariskai »

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:05 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

Or, indeed, Zachariah and Elizabeth? Jacob and Rachel? Abraham and Sarah? Hannah? Let's not forget that these saintly couples were directed by God Himself to conceive and bear their children, as part of His plan for our salvation. Zenovia, please talk to your priest about this.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:57 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2012, 09:14:31 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)

I really do believe that you meanwhile.  But the anger, swearing, and disrespectful attitude displayed in many of your posts doesn't seem in keeping with the "excessive sanctity" that you believe yourself to be promoting.

The problem with this new doctrine that you are promoting is two-fold:

1) You have, on several occasions, made it clear that you don't believe sainthood to be God's will for every human soul.
-- Orthodoxy, on the contrary, teaches that sainthood is something that God calls us all to strive towards, and there aren't some people that are predestined by God to be saints and others that aren't.

2) Your view that marital relations are somehow unholy, unchaste, or not in keeping with a saintly life, and that, when receiving the Holy Spirit, saints cease to have marital relations with their spouse.
-- As has been pointed out, Sts Joachim and Anna were certainly extremely holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos.  They didn't become saints afterwards.  They already were.  What's more, they tried to conceive a child for years before God answered their prayer.  Their attempts to conceive a child were not somehow less than saintly.  Parenthood is a holy calling, as is monasticism.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2012, 09:16:27 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:52 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

I know I'm not in the right jurisdiction, but my priest is quite good, but I do prefer my elder in spiritual matters.  He is quite far away and it is difficult for me.   Anyway I knew immediately from your understanding and kindness that you were a Byzantine Catholic.  Thanks!   :angel:

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:50 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:

 :D :D :D  How sharper than a serpent's tooth!!

Can we be friends... :D :D :D  I need the cheering up now and then.

Don't get all out of sorts here.  It's hard on the sanctity index.  You are not alone.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2012, 09:26:39 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity

Yes, you said it, because you assUme it is true.

How do you know that they had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity (which, btw, is sealed by death.  So all but the necrophiliacs would make it)?  Because, again, judging from their hagiography, and indeed, in the case of of SS. Zachariah and Elizabeth, scripture, we know the saints for sure who had sexual relations after achieving sanctity.

As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.
 
according to the Synaxarion, we do known.

Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?
 
I Timothy 4:3
It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.
No, we are just taking your words at their face value, and they contradict Orthodox teaching.
Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   
No, your ideas on sanctity don't. :P
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:28 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)
not at all. 

Quote
...(Fig. 10) on a Syrian gold marriage belt of the late sixth or early seventh century, now at Dumbarton Oaks, depicting the dextrarum iunctio of a husband and wife as Christ officiates between them, embracing the couple with his hands on their shoulders. The symbolism of these medallions apparently reflects the development of a popular religious ritual for Christian marriage much earlier in the East than in the West, and although the "Concord" of the Greek inscription implies an element of continuity with the coin type of Antoninus Pius, it is now God who is the source of concord in marriage, as the inscription explicitly states: "From God, Concord."
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1d5nb0d9&chunk.id=d0e377&toc.id=&brand=ucpress
In every Orthodox marriage, Christ is the third party.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2012, 09:43:21 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P  

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D
ah, the hissings of the Serpent does not shy from slandering the ancestors of God with accusations of lust.

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...
If St. Symeon so thought, he should have known better.

Those Fathers (celibate, btw) never explain how come marriage has been designated a Holy Mystery from Scripture itself, whereas monastic profession has not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:44:23 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2012, 09:47:00 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:
was it the Vatican theology which gave her away?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2012, 01:45:17 AM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)
By all appearances, you are the one misinterpreting--or should I say constantly reinterpreting--your posts in order to dodge all charges legitimately made against you. It's painfully obvious that you're telling us that sainthood can be achieved only via celibacy, for you have said that almost verbatim many times.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2012, 03:57:17 AM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(

You have the weirdest ideas about sainthood that I've ever heard from someone Orthodox. When is someone chosen to be saint? We don't glorify people who still live so surely that would be after death. If that's what you mean then I can agree. Those who have passed on neither have sex nor kill people. However, you appear to be saying that at some definable point prior to death God chooses people to be saints and from that point on they cease to live their normal lives and, rather, live as monastics. I've never heard this from anybody and I must say it sounds rather implausible. How long before death must this occur? I mean, I know of several martyrs who weren't even Christian until very shortly before their martyrdom having been converted by the example of others martyred before them. Or, to go back to one of my previous examples, St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. He was married several times and spent his entire life fighting the Turks (and most of his other neighbours) to protect Moldova and his faith. Only on his death bed did he encourage his son to make peace so long as the Turks guaranteed that they could remain Orthodox. Maybe then, he was 'chosen by God to be a saint' mere minutes before his passing? Or maybe your ideas are simply wrong?

James
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:06:21 AM by jmbejdl »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2012, 12:54:15 PM »
On a related note:
Quote
And if some of them turned out wicked, like straw growing up with the corn, we must not blame the sowers, nor those who tended the crop, just as we should admit that even some of our Saviour's disciples have erred from the right way through self-will. And this explanation of the ancient men of God begetting children cannot be said to apply to the Christians to-day, when by God's help through our Saviour's Gospel teaching we can see with our own eyes many peoples and nations in city and country and field all hastening together, and united in running to learn the godly course of the teaching of the Gospel, for whom I am glad to say we are able to provide teachers and preachers of the word of holiness, free from all ties of life and anxious thoughts. And in our day these men are necessarily devoted to |53 celibacy that they may have leisure for higher things; they have undertaken to bring up not one or two children but a prodigious number, and to educate them in godliness, and to care for their life generally. On the top of all this, if we carefully examine the lives of the ancient men of whom I am speaking, we shall find that they had children in early life, but later on abstained and ceased from having them. For it is written that "Enoch pleased God after Methusaleh was born." Scripture expressly records that he pleased God after the birth of his son, and tells nothing of his having children afterwards. And Noah, that just man, who was saved alone with his family when the whole world was destroyed, after the birth of his children, though he lived many years more, is not related to have begotten more children. And Isaac is said, after becoming the father of twins by one wife, to have ceased cohabitation with her. Joseph again (and this was when he lived among the Egyptians) was only the father of two sons, and married to their mother only, while Moses himself and Aaron his brother are recorded as having had children before the appearance of God, but after the giving of the divine oracles as having begotten no more children. What must I say of Melchisedek? He had no son at all, no family, no descendants. And the same is true of Joshua, the successor of Moses, and many other prophets.

If there is any question about the families of Abraham and Jacob, a longer discussion will be found in the book I wrote about the polygamy and large families of the ancient men of God. To this I must refer the student, only warning him that according to the laws of the new covenant the producing of children is certainly not forbidden, but the provisions are similar to those followed by the ancient men of God. "For a bishop," says the Scripture, "must be the husband of one wife." Yet it is fitting that |54 those in the priesthood and occupied in the service of God, should abstain after ordination from the intercourse of marriage. To all who have not undertaken this wondrous priesthood, Scripture almost completely gives way, when it says: "Marriage is honourable, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." This, then, is my answer to the first question.
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical history, 1:9


This was the quote provided. I don't see much in it myself, but I think the bolded is the most applicable.

Yes, I remember praise of celibacy by Eusebius and St. John (both of whom were celibate), but mandating it?  Even here that claim is pretty weak.

And it is undermined: Scripture expressly records that Enoch pleased God after the birth of his son, and tells us of his having children afterwards.
Quote
εὐηρέστησεν δὲ ενωχ τῷ θεῷ μετὰ τὸ γεννῆσαι αὐτὸν τὸν μαθουσαλα διακόσια ἔτη καὶ ἐγέννησεν υἱοὺς καὶ θυγατέρας

Isaac is said, after becoming the father of twins by one wife, to have continued cohabitation with her
Quote
ἐγένετο δὲ πολυχρόνιος ἐκεῖ παρακύψας δὲ αβιμελεχ ὁ βασιλεὺς γεραρων διὰ τῆς θυρίδος εἶδεν τὸν ισαακ παίζοντα μετὰ ρεβεκκας τῆς γυναικὸς αὐτοῦ
"It came about, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out through a window, and saw, and behold, Isaac was caressing his wife Rebekah." gen. 26:8

Melchisedek also had no parents, according to Hebrews.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:56:42 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2012, 01:46:31 AM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?

After looking at their economic holdings, me and a few others have some ideas about increasing their numbers and creating some heavy reforms.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2012, 09:31:48 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.

As I recall from the Clean Week Thursday service, Saint Mary of Egypt was not a prostitute as she refused to exchange sex for money--she was just a female version of Charlie Sheen.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?

After looking at their economic holdings, me and a few others have some ideas about increasing their numbers and creating some heavy reforms.

They are destined for greatness, those shakers.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline peteprint

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2012, 02:40:17 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

I know I'm not in the right jurisdiction, but my priest is quite good, but I do prefer my elder in spiritual matters.  He is quite far away and it is difficult for me.   Anyway I knew immediately from your understanding and kindness that you were a Byzantine Catholic.  Thanks!   :angel:

Zenovia,

If I might ask, why do you associate understanding and kindness with Byzantine Catholics and not Orthodox (or for that matter Roman Catholics, OO's etc?)

I just thought it was a strange statement for you to make, as if there is something about the Byzantine Catholic Church that you find positive and appealing.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2012, 02:56:26 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.

As I recall from the Clean Week Thursday service, Saint Mary of Egypt was not a prostitute as she refused to exchange sex for money--she was just a female version of Charlie Sheen.
wasn't that Madonna (the misnamed singer) in a previous life?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2012, 03:39:56 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

This "achieving" of sanctity you speak of does not sound like it proceeds from the Orthodox phronema. Sanctification is a process. Marriage is blessed by God. Raising children is one of the purposes of this marriage blessed by God. If it's blessed, the act is sanctified. There is no sin in husband and wife having lawful relations. It is no impediment to sanctity. If you say it is, you'll have to explain yourself to all the married saints.
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