Author Topic: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.  (Read 9968 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« on: May 17, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »
In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?   
Gnostic nonsense. :police:
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 07:45:46 PM »
In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?   
Gnostic nonsense. :police:

Which gnostics? My favorite gnostics (Carpocratians) advocated participating in all manner of sexual perversions (according to St. Irenaeus). 

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 08:12:01 PM »
....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  


In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy? 

All the Saints that were married are going to be surprised about this.

Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 09:41:13 PM »
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:47:42 PM by xariskai »

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 09:54:21 PM »
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline witega

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »
Frankly I don't believe this is Orthodox  theology. 

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Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:11 PM »
I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.    
"St. John Chrysostom gave us the important teaching that almsgiving is higher than virginity, and avarice is worse than adultery.' These holy lives make clear that it is love that tames lust, not any pseudo-pious contempt for even the appropriate carnal corollary of love." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:18:34 PM by xariskai »

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 10:20:04 PM »
Quote
but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.   

Zenovia, you might find it useful to examine the text of the Orthodox service of betrothal and marriage. And it is no accident that Christ performed His first miracle at a wedding.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 10:28:21 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament. How then could it lack sanctity?

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:31:28 PM by xariskai »

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 10:29:52 PM »
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.  When God calls a person to sainthood,  they begin to live in two 'existences',  a  heavenly one and a worldly one.     I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?  It requires a certain purity of soul, which would be negated by any worldly desires or needs they have.  Many saints lived only on the Eucharist.  

As an example; Saint John of Kronstadt was ordered by a head priest to marry his daughter.  He lived with her as brother and sister.  Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
  

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 10:33:51 PM »


Quote
In your view then, 'monasticism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?    

Celibacy in the RC is not about power, control, etc.,  it is simply a matter of economics.  The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   You know in another time and another place these homosexuals with their limited male sex drive, and which seem to abound in our society,  would have been influenced into entering the priesthood and thereby leading a more virtuous Christian life.  But they're not, so what do we get now in our topsy turvy world?  The virtues of monasticism being condemned and sinful lifestyles being lauded.  :(

Really? That's a broad brush to paint the RC priesthood with and in my opinion, quite unfair. Frankly, we live in a more secular world and many of the men and women who are RC who would, in an earlier period of time, have become 'religious' ( i.e. Brothers, Sisters and clergy) won't accept the 'discipline' of celibacy and they have gone into other fields, such as social work, teaching etc....

 If you say celibacy is a discipline, then are you saying our saints merely acquired a discipline and that they weren't given the gift of celibacy from God?  Frankly I don't believe this is Orthodox  theology.  I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.      ...

Monasticism wasn't founded until at least a century after the church was founded, you realize? Also all this "virginity is superior to chaste marriage" stuff is pretty Roman and gnostic.

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 10:36:02 PM »
I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Because there's absolutely nothing (zilch, zero, nada) wrong with a married person desiring their spouse, we were originally made to do that before the fall.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:36:39 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 10:36:07 PM »
Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.
Marriage is a sacrament.

"Holy matrimony." Holy = Lat. sanctus

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 10:39:00 PM »
Zenovia, here's a link to the marriage services:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/betrotha.htm
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/crowning.htm

St John of Kronstadt's situation was most unusual among married couples, the norm was more like Sts Basil and Emilia.
Quote
I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Were the children of married saints conceived out of thin air?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:26 PM »
I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.  
Then monastic profession would be usually numbered among the Great Holy Mysteries of the Church, as Marriage is.

Higher or lower state of 'Grace' isn't what you said: you denied sanctity to the married.

btw, some are celibate due to lack of opportunity otherwise.  Are they higher too?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:52:55 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 10:56:26 PM »
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.  When God calls a person to sainthood,  they begin to live in two 'existences',  a  heavenly one and a worldly one.     I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?  It requires a certain purity of soul, which would be negated by any worldly desires or needs they have.  Many saints lived only on the Eucharist.  

As an example; Saint John of Kronstadt was ordered by a head priest to marry his daughter.  He lived with her as brother and sister.
 
against her wishes.  God through St. Paul has something to say on that:"don't."

"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 11:01:21 PM »
"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
:laugh:

Origen?

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 11:02:02 PM »
Quote
"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?

.... must be like being "a bit pregnant" ....  ;)
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Offline age234

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2012, 11:02:09 PM »
I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Because there's absolutely nothing (zilch, zero, nada) wrong with a married person desiring their spouse, we were originally made to do that before the fall.

I think Zenovia is incorrect and marriage is indeed blessed and holy, but a number of Fathers would disagree with the bolded portion.

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 11:40:58 PM »
God made marriage to be Holy, when he first created them man and woman. after the Incarnation the Lord began his first ministry with the blessing of the marriage in Canna.

sex within marriage is a beautiful sanctified act of complete and perfect love, the giving of self and the accepting of another with reverence, joy,and love. in such holy union the creator himself is present in that joining that goes deeper than the flesh, this union is protected and sanctified by Him, that which the lord has joined let no man divide, that includes those two involved, selfishness is the antithesis of genuine love, denying the other person of sex  without due reason ( factual health issues/as some have been known to fabricate them/, agreed upon fasting time , agreed upon reason for abstaining /whatever that may be/ that's all i can think of right now)is a sin against the person, thus against the marriage and it will open a door for the Evil One to enter.

from holy matrimony and within its holy union men are made perfect/ saints ( the married couple), and if God wills it, saints are born in the co-creation that is possible in this union. how sacred is this union! where I come from, under normal circumstances people do not sit on married couples bed, because it is seen as a very holy place of holy act,reserved only for them. in the country side, it is a part of genuine hospitality for them to receive a guest , wash the feet of the guest and  as a sign of greatly honoring the guest,leave their bed for the guest to sleep on and they sleep on either the floor or on another bed.

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 01:19:20 AM »
This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 05:05:52 AM »
"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
:laugh:

Origen?
Sort of eliminates marriage later.
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »
When God calls a person to sainthood,
I have news for you, sister. We're ALL called to sainthood, every last one of us. Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:20:09 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.
Marriage is a sacrament.
Quite fitting it is, then, that the analogy of marriage is used so often in the Scriptures (both Old Testament and New) to speak of God's union with His people.

Even more telling it is that Jesus performed His first public miracle at a wedding. AT A WEDDING!
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2012, 10:23:48 AM »
Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  :o
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Offline JR

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2012, 10:33:42 AM »
Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  :o

Here we go  :-\
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2012, 10:34:42 AM »
This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »
This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.

That's not what's going on in this thread.  It has been proposed that one must be celibate to be a saint.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »
Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  :o

Here we go  :-\

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2012, 10:49:08 AM »
This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.
It says at the very least that the insertion of a husband's penis into his wife's vagina is not defiling, something many still have a problem with not considering it sexual immorality.  At the very least, Zenovia seems to think it prevents sanctity.

The husband inserting his penis into another woman or someone else's wife, or the wife allowing another man or someone else's husband insert his penis into her vagina, at the very least, is not included within marriage.

It says "marriage IS honorable," NOT "marriage SHOULD BE honorable."
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:49:43 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2012, 10:55:22 AM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\

Offline Peter J

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2012, 03:53:52 PM »
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints. 

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Offline witega

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2012, 04:00:41 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\

Oh you explained yourself the time before. You're just wrong.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2012, 04:05:46 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2012, 05:15:29 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
Quote
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.  I suggest you read about them because Orthodox books on these saints do exist.  There is a book by Chondropoulos on Saint Nektarios, and one on Saint Luke the Surgeon of Russia as well as books on future saints such as Elder Porphyrios, Elder Paisios, Father Arseny and even the fool for Christ, Crazy John of Athens. 

There are also future saints who are still alive  such as the Elder Amelianos and the Elder Ephraim of Arizona, and  also some who are  considered by many to be saints such as the Bishop of Limassol of Cyprus, and others... so I'm not pulling things out of thin air believe me.

 Hmmm!  You seem to know a lot of that spiritual guide stuff?  Kind of curious I think?   ???

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2012, 05:25:10 PM »
Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way.  

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
Quote
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.
I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.

I suggest you read about them because Orthodox books on these saints do exist.

you assUme I haven't.
There is a book by Chondropoulos on Saint Nektarios, and one on Saint Luke the Surgeon of Russia as well as books on future saints such as Elder Porphyrios, Elder Paisios, Father Arseny and even the fool for Christ, Crazy John of Athens.  

There are also future saints who are still alive  such as the Elder Amelianos and the Elder Ephraim of Arizona, and  also some who are  considered by many to be saints such as the Bishop of Limassol of Cyprus, and others... so I'm not pulling things out of thin air believe me.
I've met Elder Ephraim personally.  One of the best men at my wedding entered his monastery in Arizona.

Hmmm!  You seem to know a lot of that spiritual guide stuff?  Kind of curious I think?   ???
a lot?  not so much.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 05:25:52 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2012, 08:47:14 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:48:15 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2012, 10:30:33 PM »
Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way.  

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... :-\

You know a lot of Saints before repenting were pagans, even outright demon worshipers and practitioners of sorcery like St. Cyprian?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:31:13 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2012, 10:55:13 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

Offline witega

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2012, 11:09:38 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

They did not however, need to beg him for forgiveness for teaching the falsehood that celibacy is necessary for sanctity, because unlike you they knew and taught Orthodox doctrine.
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2012, 11:31:26 PM »

I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

You say that in a way that can be very misleading.  I would like you to clarify yourself and give me your interpretation of what Saint Seraphim meant? 

Quote
Quote
We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.

I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

Of course Porn and prostitutes abound there,  otherwise there wouldn't be so many saints.  It's God's way of calling the people to repent. The Greek Church is more or less underground since it is a very secular society...as is the rest of Europe.  But under those circumstances, Christians are usually more sincere and  devout.  Twenty years ago the monasteries were empty and falling apart, but in the past decade they have been growing full force.   I know of some nuns who alone managed to restore and start about sixteen of them.  They are not the only ones.   

Quote
They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.

I have not heard of any, although I do know that Elder Ephraim is a saint, otherwise he would not have been able to accomplish what he did and I feel the Elder Joseph of Saint Nektarios Monastery might also be a saint.   I have a cousin that's a monk and something unusual occurred when he was a baby, which makes me wonder if he might become a saint.  He has a very pure soul.  :angel: 




Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2012, 11:55:09 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2012, 11:58:20 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:
among which was not their embrace with their spouse.

You can read several lives of the saints, of the proof of the sanctity from an early age, after which they had children, and not by parthenogenesis....  Hence we don't need to be in their bedrooms.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 12:00:11 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 12:01:54 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:
among which was not their embrace with their spouse.

You can read several lives of the saints, of the proof of the sanctity from an early age, after which they had children, and not by parthenogenesis....  Hence we don't need to be in their bedrooms.
Indeed! We glorify the memory of Ss. Joachim and Anna for what they helped create late in life. And what of Zechariah and Elizabeth?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 12:05:05 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2012, 12:03:36 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 12:05:00 AM by Jason.Wike »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »

I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

You say that in a way that can be very misleading.  I would like you to clarify yourself and give me your interpretation of what Saint Seraphim meant? 
why don't you first quote him, and then tell us what you think he means.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.

I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

Of course Porn and prostitutes abound there,  otherwise there wouldn't be so many saints.  It's God's way of calling the people to repent.
I don't recall Sodom and Gomorrah being held up as examples of repentance.

The Greek Church is more or less underground since it is a very secular society...as is the rest of Europe.  But under those circumstances, Christians are usually more sincere and  devout.  Twenty years ago the monasteries were empty and falling apart, but in the past decade they have been growing full force.   I know of some nuns who alone managed to restore and start about sixteen of them.  They are not the only ones.   

Quote
They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.
I have not heard of any, although I do know that Elder Ephraim is a saint, otherwise he would not have been able to accomplish what he did and I feel the Elder Joseph of Saint Nektarios Monastery might also be a saint.   I have a cousin that's a monk and something unusual occurred when he was a baby, which makes me wonder if he might become a saint.  He has a very pure soul.  :angel: 
You can start here:

the central one, St. Innocent, you can read his life and see the sanctity he achieved while begetting his children.
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Offline mike

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2012, 04:27:58 AM »
Samples of recently canonised saints:

A married couple:



and he was a father of her:
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2012, 02:11:40 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! :o

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   :P


Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2012, 02:22:36 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm

Offline genesisone

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2012, 02:28:34 PM »
I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2012, 02:51:42 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

 I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth. 

By that logic, so long as a saint doesn't die mid-coitus there was some period of celibacy, and thus your idea of "saintliness" is maintained. So long as married St. X didn't die while giving his wife/ her husband a little of the ol' in-out, then they must be commended for their great heroic virtue in not spending every second of their married lives in the sack.
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2012, 03:27:46 PM »
I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  :)

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2012, 03:36:44 PM »
I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  :)

Let me correct that.  I should have said that a person's passions diminishes according to how much they are willing to sacrifice for Christ.  I should think that the less a person is wrapped up in themselves, the purer and more God like  they become... Wouldn't that constitute a saint?  ???

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2012, 05:57:38 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

 I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth. 

By that logic, so long as a saint doesn't die mid-coitus there was some period of celibacy, and thus your idea of "saintliness" is maintained. So long as married St. X didn't die while giving his wife/ her husband a little of the ol' in-out, then they must be commended for their great heroic virtue in not spending every second of their married lives in the sack.

LOL !!!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Hilarious! very well said!

I don't get where all this disdain for physical matter comes from among Christians. our creator made us out of physical matter too when he created man. if he found it necessary for us to simply be spiritual beings then there was no point going further after the creation of the angels now is there?  why create us as human beings who are the union of the physical and the spiritual. even in the coming age we expect our bodies to be transfigured bodies, so we are speaking about matter transfigured.

marriage was His idea and his gift, sex was his idea and his gift, the holiness of marriage is his idea and his gift. It seems to me,what we have done with what we are given is a much more likely productive topic of conversation rather than essentially saying its a bad idea in the first place.
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2012, 06:14:16 PM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2012, 08:17:50 PM »
I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly. 

Might I suggest something else could be at work: it was not their celibacy that made them saints, but that their saintliness led them to choose celibacy. The aforementioned St Mary of Egypt would be an example of that.

Thank you for that, because people can't understand that when a person loves God and wants give their all for God, their passions become almost non existent.  We can say in a sense it's one of the 'charisms' given to them by God.  :)

Let me correct that.  I should have said that a person's passions diminishes according to how much they are willing to sacrifice for Christ.  I should think that the less a person is wrapped up in themselves, the purer and more God like  they become... Wouldn't that constitute a saint?  ???
ISTM, though, that you still consider the desire for the marital embrace to be nothing more than a carnal passion. Why is this?
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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! :o

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   :P



And I didn't misquote you in the least. And no, I have absolutely no prejudice against the Pope or Catholics. ::) You really couldn't be more off base with that than anything (I visit a Benedictine Abbey pretty frequently when I pass by, heck, I even have St. Benedict's medal with all kinds of Catholic-y stuff on it right next to me).

Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:39:14 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2012, 08:27:58 PM »
 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel: 
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2012, 08:30:19 PM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2012, 10:32:56 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! :o

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   :P





Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.

Yes I said they didn't live a carnal existence before becoming saints, but that could be three weeks, three months or three decades for that matter.   You misquoted me when you  stated that I said the following in my post:  "Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly."  There's a big difference between that and my statement of not living a carnal existence before becoming saints.

For heavens sake how could I say that saints were holy throughout their lives when Saint Paul was the greatest of sinners?  Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.  I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    ???


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2012, 10:42:33 PM »
Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.
Which is of course nonsense.
I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves,

Or high regard for the Creator.
otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?
because many saints were married persons.  not before.  During.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 10:42:52 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2012, 01:12:20 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   :angel:

The problem is you originally said and have said several times since that Sanctity can only come with celibacy and that those who are Saints never had a part of their lives were they were not Saintly. Either you're trolling here or really don't even know what you're saying...

Stop spinning my words, you know d*** well that I said saints were celibate before becoming saints, which  could mean  three weeks, such as in the case of martyrs, three years or from the time of birth.  I never said: Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly.  The only reason I'm being misquoted by you and others, is because I'm not willing to go along and bash the Pope for wanting celibate priests.  Instead I did that horror of horrors, I showed understanding towards the position of the RC and that's a definite no-no! :o

By the way, misquoting someone with a deliberate intent is calumny...and that my dear man is a sin.   :P





Here's the two relevant quotes in case you forget.
Quote
sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.

No spinning, they're your words. You might have meant something else but the plain meaning of them is what it is regardless of what you meant but did not say.

Yes I said they didn't live a carnal existence before becoming saints, but that could be three weeks, three months or three decades for that matter.   You misquoted me when you  stated that I said the following in my post:  "Saints never had a part of their lives when they were not Saintly."  There's a big difference between that and my statement of not living a carnal existence before becoming saints.

For heavens sake how could I say that saints were holy throughout their lives when Saint Paul was the greatest of sinners?  Anyway when God calls a person for sainthood,  He expects from them a great many sacrifices...which of course includes celibacy.
What saint ever advocated celibacy as the only means to sainthood? So far this looks like nothing but a bare assertion on your part, one which you must prove.

  I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    ???
I don't know who's teaching you about marriage, then, if you can believe that. I can tell you from my married priest's standard wedding homily that the sacrifices a husband and wife must make for each other are among the greatest sacrifices one can make in this life. We're talking about dying to oneself in order to serve the needs of the other, a dying to oneself that he often equates with martyrdom.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2012, 07:22:38 AM »
I find it appalling that the posters on this thread have either a low regard for saints, or else a very high regard for themselves, otherwise how can they possibly believe the meager sacrifices they make in life as a married person is  equal to the sacrifices of a saint?    ???
Well the Church believes it enough to call them "martyrs crowns" that she crowns the married pair as she weds them.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2012, 07:54:53 AM »
What about all the saints who were lay people with normal lives? Not everyone who is glorified was monastic or members of the clergy. Are you saying even those ordinary lay folk were celibate? As an example, I could cite the saint alongside my posts. He was a merchant from Trebizond who was martyred and whose relics are incorrupt. I've no idea if he was married, but he was 30 at the time of his martyrdom, so there's a good chance he was and I very much doubt that 14th century merchants lived celibate lives.

Or how about one I know with certainty was only not celibate but certainly wasn't what I'd call a model of chastity. St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. Despite that he's been glorified, for his great piety and as a defender of the faith.

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2012, 08:30:52 AM »
What about all the saints who were lay people with normal lives? Not everyone who is glorified was monastic or members of the clergy. Are you saying even those ordinary lay folk were celibate? As an example, I could cite the saint alongside my posts. He was a merchant from Trebizond who was martyred and whose relics are incorrupt. I've no idea if he was married, but he was 30 at the time of his martyrdom, so there's a good chance he was and I very much doubt that 14th century merchants lived celibate lives.

Or how about one I know with certainty was only not celibate but certainly wasn't what I'd call a model of chastity. St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. Despite that he's been glorified, for his great piety and as a defender of the faith.
That brings up another question: does this sacrifice and ceasing of earthly existence include laying down the sword?  That would eliminate a lot of solider saints, like St. George.  Or could the saints make war, just not love?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2012, 01:00:05 PM »
Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.


I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said, since you are misleading people and you refused and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit.  I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.

Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood. .But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    ::)

By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:01:36 PM by Zenovia »

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2012, 04:53:03 PM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2012, 05:43:10 PM »
Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.
O ye of even shorter memory!
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said
that post seems to be missing.
since you are misleading people
I'm not misleading anyone.  Would that you could say the same!
and you refused
I did not
and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit
I can, and have, read his words too.  You don't seem to understand them.  At least I haven't seen any evidence of that, as you haven't linked his words to the topic at hand.
I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.
Since you haven't done anything but quote him, thankfully you have not mislead others.
Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood.
I haven't said a thing about sacrifices I make towards my (ex)wife and family, or towards anyone else for that matter.

I did consider and cite the examples of saints with wives by whom they were begetting a family whom Christ glorified and raised to sainthood.

But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    ::)

He seems armed for something.
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???
I am just mocking gnoticism and its false god, and its godless and silly myths that sanctity only comes through celibacy, its doctrine of demons which mock the Creator who created them male and female from the beginning.

Speaking of the Spirit (I Timothy 4:)1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless and silly myths.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 05:47:57 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2012, 07:57:25 PM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2012, 08:00:33 PM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(

Zenovia, I believe that you are well-intentioned, but you are incorrect.  First of all, God desires all of us to be saints, not only some.  Second of all, it is perfectly possible for people in a godly marriage to attain sainthood, without ever giving up having marital relations with each other.  Marital relations are chaste and holy.

This is the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2012, 08:10:50 PM »
Quote
I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

Then you, Zenovia, cannot regard Abraham and Sarah, Zachariah and Elizabeth, or Joachim and Anna as saints, as they ALL had sexual relations after being called by God. And what were the fruits of their unions again?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2012, 08:13:57 PM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.
Then you stand condemned by scripture itself, and Christ Himself, Who performed His first miracle blessing by His presence the public celebration of beginning sexual relations.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(
I don't think Arius ever touched a woman. I know that Maceodnius, Nestorius, Eutychus and Sergius never did.  I don't know if Leo touched a woman before he burned an icon.

I do know that God Himself chose St. Innocent before He joined him to his wife,  by whom he begot his children.  I know that SS. Zachariah and Elizabeth walked blameless before God when He Himself chose them to have sexual relations to beget St. John the Forerunner.

You have a very corrupted view of sanctity.  At least, you are expousing a very corrupted view of sanctity.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:17:02 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2012, 08:22:14 PM »
Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. :angel:
:-\
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?

This is what Saint Seraphim said about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

Oh you of short memory, this was the discussion...remember?

You said:

Quote
that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I responded:

Quote
Take it up with Saint Seraphim.

And you responded:

Quote
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.
O ye of even shorter memory!
St. Serafim doesn't say a word about baptism in your quote.  Nor, for that matter, the marital bed.

I then asked you to give your interpretation of what he said
that post seems to be missing.
since you are misleading people
I'm not misleading anyone.  Would that you could say the same!
and you refused
I did not
and asked me to do so...which I did by posting what Saint Seraphim said about the Holy Spirit
I can, and have, read his words too.  You don't seem to understand them.  At least I haven't seen any evidence of that, as you haven't linked his words to the topic at hand.
I felt that it was better for me to do so than to have you misinform and thereby mislead others.
Since you haven't done anything but quote him, thankfully you have not mislead others.
Of course this is to be expected from someone who considers the 'sacrifices' he makes towards his wife and family to be equal to those of a saint to Christ, and by doing so raises himself  to the position of sainthood.
I haven't said a thing about sacrifices I make towards my (ex)wife and family, or towards anyone else for that matter.

I did consider and cite the examples of saints with wives by whom they were begetting a family whom Christ glorified and raised to sainthood.

But then again you did say Saint George was  killing people at the time he had given himself to Christ.    ::)

He seems armed for something.
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???
I am just mocking gnoticism and its false god, and its godless and silly myths that sanctity only comes through celibacy, its doctrine of demons which mock the Creator who created them male and female from the beginning.

Speaking of the Spirit (I Timothy 4:)1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless and silly myths.

We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.   

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  :P

Offline LBK

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 08:28:08 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 08:31:33 PM »
We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  :P
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:33:36 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 08:33:21 PM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(

Zenovia, I believe that you are well-intentioned, but you are incorrect.  First of all, God desires all of us to be saints, not only some.  Second of all, it is perfectly possible for people in a godly marriage to attain sainthood, without ever giving up having marital relations with each other.  Marital relations are chaste and holy.

This is the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? ???

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2012, 08:35:11 PM »
We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  :P
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.

Aha!  Another misquote and act of calumny...oh that's right, I forgot now a days they're called 'spins'.    So now I'm bringing demons against marriage, isn't it?   ;D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2012, 08:37:39 PM »
Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.
 
No, your view is so gnostic.
Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.
then you have departed from the Faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? ???
given their children, no.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2012, 08:40:11 PM »
Quote
'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints. I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? Huh

Abraham and Sarah. Zachariah and Elizabeth. Joachim and Anna. All were called by God, and all fulfilled the will of God by conceiving and bearing children, which came to be through sexual relations, not parthenogenesis. The Church extols and magnifies these holy parents, in bringing forth such illustrious fruit. Or, Zenovia, do you not accept what the hymnography and iconography of the Orthodox Church proclaims and espouses, because of your warped view of sexual relations within marriage?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2012, 08:42:09 PM »
Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? ???

The monastic life is a special calling.  It is not for everyone.  But everyone is called by God to be a saint.

I have a lot of friends, and even godchildren, that have embraced the monastic life.  But none of them would agree with what you're saying.

Also, as has been pointed out Joachim and Anna were intimate *after* God called them, and are saints.  Zacharias and Elizabeth were intimate after God's calling and are saints.  The idea that saints cannot be intimate after receiving the Holy Spirit is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Marriage is created and blessed by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2012, 08:43:32 PM »
We can only judge a person by their fruits, and your fruits up until now  have been lies, lies, lies, and more lies.  (Oh that's right they are excusable today with our ever relative ethics and morality, so we now use the politically correct term 'spin').  It amazes me how you disregarded all my quotes and answers and twisted them in whichever way you desired to give a false connotation that they didn't relate to the subject at hand, when you know d**** well they were in response to something else.  This of course is an example of your fruit which in my mind makes you a heretic of the greatest kind and shall be treated as such.  

As for your last quote, even satan can quote scripture...therefore I shall pay it about as much heed.  :P
You can hiss with the Serpent all you like and pay him heed, but neither of you cannot quote any scripture to support your doctrine of demons against marriage.  God has forewarned us about those preaching another gospel.  We will stick with the one Christ the Bridegroom brought for His Bride the Church.

Aha!  Another misquote and act of calumny...oh that's right, I forgot now a days they're called 'spins'.    So now I'm bringing demons against marriage, isn't it?   ;D
Nothing has been misquoted, at least by me.  The quote links are all there.  Anyone can read that for themselves.  As scripture says, one forbids marriage to the saints by paying heed to deceitful spirits and embracing that doctrine of demons.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2012, 08:43:45 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2012, 08:49:23 PM »
Then why monks?  I'm sorry but your view is very Protestant.  Even though I do accept some Protestants as being very holy, and almost akin to sanctity as in the Orthodox Church, I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? ???

The monastic life is a special calling.  It is not for everyone.  But everyone is called by God to be a saint.

I have a lot of friends, and even godchildren, that have embraced the monastic life.  But none of them would agree with what you're saying.

Also, as has been pointed out Joachim and Anna were intimate *after* God called them, and are saints.  Zacharias and Elizabeth were intimate after God's calling and are saints.  The idea that saints cannot be intimate after receiving the Holy Spirit is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Marriage is created and blessed by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know.  

Anyway, no one ever said that marriage was not created and blessed by God.  That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.   :)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:54:37 PM by Zenovia »

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2012, 08:50:33 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2012, 08:51:46 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)
Oh?  The interpret this correctly:
I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God...If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(
I will never accept that an Orthodox or a Catholic saint for that matter had sexual relations at a time when they acquired the charisms that God gives to saints.  I am not looking at people that lived one thousand five hundred years ago, since no one knows for certainty what kind of life they lived before they died.  We can only look at our present day saints as an example.  I see them all celibate, at least in their last years, don't you? ???
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Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2012, 08:55:00 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2012, 09:00:41 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2012, 09:01:48 PM »
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.
As has been pointed out to you before, that caveat has no meaning, as, despite what you might be suspecting, married people do not have sex 24/7.  Except someone dying in mid-coitus, practically anyone will fit your claim here.

Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....
How do you know?

So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know.

and you do not know when was the last time a saint made love with their spouse.  We do know that for many it was, according to their hagiography and record, after God called them to sanctity.

Anyway, no one ever said that marriage was not created and blessed by God.  That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.   :)
As the Germans say "Who says A, must say B."

So, what are you saying?  It seems clear to us.  Is it clear to you?
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2012, 09:03:03 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2012, 09:03:58 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2012, 09:07:24 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2012, 09:08:42 PM »
...of heretics are curses, and the curses of heretics are blessings
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)
You're right.  Very little in Orthodoxy is defined dogma.

The sanctity of wedlock is one such defined dogma.

So no, Zenovia has no Orthodox reason to take the position she does, as it is opposed to Orthodoxy as expressed, among other things, in the insistence of a married clergy, the wedding rite, and the glorification of married saints.

The gnosticism Zenovia has adopted is one of those things the "Eastern Catholics" took up when it submitted to the Vatican's yoke.  "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has the believer with an infidel?"

 ;)
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2012, 09:11:15 PM »
Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)
I would be a little surprised if you agree with Zenovia's claim that "sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy."

Marriage is a sacrament/"Holy matrimony." Holy = Lat. sanctus.

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

The sanctity of wedlock is one such defined dogma.
+1
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:15:19 PM by xariskai »

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:05 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

Or, indeed, Zachariah and Elizabeth? Jacob and Rachel? Abraham and Sarah? Hannah? Let's not forget that these saintly couples were directed by God Himself to conceive and bear their children, as part of His plan for our salvation. Zenovia, please talk to your priest about this.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:57 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2012, 09:14:31 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)

I really do believe that you meanwhile.  But the anger, swearing, and disrespectful attitude displayed in many of your posts doesn't seem in keeping with the "excessive sanctity" that you believe yourself to be promoting.

The problem with this new doctrine that you are promoting is two-fold:

1) You have, on several occasions, made it clear that you don't believe sainthood to be God's will for every human soul.
-- Orthodoxy, on the contrary, teaches that sainthood is something that God calls us all to strive towards, and there aren't some people that are predestined by God to be saints and others that aren't.

2) Your view that marital relations are somehow unholy, unchaste, or not in keeping with a saintly life, and that, when receiving the Holy Spirit, saints cease to have marital relations with their spouse.
-- As has been pointed out, Sts Joachim and Anna were certainly extremely holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos.  They didn't become saints afterwards.  They already were.  What's more, they tried to conceive a child for years before God answered their prayer.  Their attempts to conceive a child were not somehow less than saintly.  Parenthood is a holy calling, as is monasticism.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2012, 09:16:27 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:

Offline Zenovia

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:52 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

I know I'm not in the right jurisdiction, but my priest is quite good, but I do prefer my elder in spiritual matters.  He is quite far away and it is difficult for me.   Anyway I knew immediately from your understanding and kindness that you were a Byzantine Catholic.  Thanks!   :angel:

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:50 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:

 :D :D :D  How sharper than a serpent's tooth!!

Can we be friends... :D :D :D  I need the cheering up now and then.

Don't get all out of sorts here.  It's hard on the sanctity index.  You are not alone.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2012, 09:26:39 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity

Yes, you said it, because you assUme it is true.

How do you know that they had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity (which, btw, is sealed by death.  So all but the necrophiliacs would make it)?  Because, again, judging from their hagiography, and indeed, in the case of of SS. Zachariah and Elizabeth, scripture, we know the saints for sure who had sexual relations after achieving sanctity.

As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.
 
according to the Synaxarion, we do known.

Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?
 
I Timothy 4:3
It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.
No, we are just taking your words at their face value, and they contradict Orthodox teaching.
Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   
No, your ideas on sanctity don't. :P
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:28 PM »
No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

Quote
Do you know for sure the saints had sexual relations until the day they died, because that's what you're implying.  Yet all the saints I know of, definitely did not have....  So we can only judge something by what we know, never by what we do not know. 

You haven't been misquoted.  You claimed, very clearly, that all the saints ceased having marital relations as soon as they were called by God.  However, that is certainly not true.  Many had children *after* they were called by God.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Aren't you being a little nit picky here?  A saint can be called from the time of birth, and later on and later on and later on.  But there does come a time when they give their all to God, and I mean their ALL... something that seems to allude you people :)
not at all. 

Quote
...(Fig. 10) on a Syrian gold marriage belt of the late sixth or early seventh century, now at Dumbarton Oaks, depicting the dextrarum iunctio of a husband and wife as Christ officiates between them, embracing the couple with his hands on their shoulders. The symbolism of these medallions apparently reflects the development of a popular religious ritual for Christian marriage much earlier in the East than in the West, and although the "Concord" of the Greek inscription implies an element of continuity with the coin type of Antoninus Pius, it is now God who is the source of concord in marriage, as the inscription explicitly states: "From God, Concord."
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1d5nb0d9&chunk.id=d0e377&toc.id=&brand=ucpress
In every Orthodox marriage, Christ is the third party.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2012, 09:43:21 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P  

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D
ah, the hissings of the Serpent does not shy from slandering the ancestors of God with accusations of lust.

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...
If St. Symeon so thought, he should have known better.

Those Fathers (celibate, btw) never explain how come marriage has been designated a Holy Mystery from Scripture itself, whereas monastic profession has not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:44:23 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2012, 09:47:00 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

Al Misry and Father Ambrose used to say that there's very little in Orthodoxy that is defined doctrine.  So I think Zenovia has every Orthodox reason to take the position she does: It is the position of most of the holy fathers...You know...those saints you love to quote when you think they agree with you.... ;)

Thank you!  Reasonable and kind voices are rare on this thread.  They say one should only be judged by the fruit they bear.  I knew immediately you were a Byzantine Catholic.   :angel:
was it the Vatican theology which gave her away?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2012, 01:45:17 AM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)
By all appearances, you are the one misinterpreting--or should I say constantly reinterpreting--your posts in order to dodge all charges legitimately made against you. It's painfully obvious that you're telling us that sainthood can be achieved only via celibacy, for you have said that almost verbatim many times.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2012, 03:57:17 AM »
By the way, when you mock  the holy and sacrificial estate of sanctity and its perquisite celibacy and the withdrawal from all worldly attachments, (such as family and wife) ,  are you simply mocking God or are you making yourself  into a God by choosing whichever interpretation is to you liking?   ???

You are the one making yourself into God by choosing your own interpretation, against that of the Church, by falsely claiming that celibacy is a prerequisite to sanctity.

No one here, as far as I can tell, has said anything against celibacy.  Celibacy for the sake of God is a good and holy manner of life.  It is not, however, the only good and holy state.  Married life, including married sexual intimacy, is good and holy as well.  St. Paphnutius the Great, himself a life-long celibate, condemned the idea that marital relations were unholy or that married people should give them up in order to achieve holiness.

In Christ,
Fr. John


This has nothing to do with marriage itself, or if someone should give it up for the sake of holiness. Saint Paphnutius was right in that.  I'm speaking of those who have been chosen by God for saint hood.  I am no more going to accept that saints continued to have sexual relations after being called by God, than I would of Saint George continuing to kill people.

If our monks have had to give up everyone and everything they hold dear when entering the monasteries, then don't tell me that less would be expected of  saints that have been chosen by God Himself.  >:(

You have the weirdest ideas about sainthood that I've ever heard from someone Orthodox. When is someone chosen to be saint? We don't glorify people who still live so surely that would be after death. If that's what you mean then I can agree. Those who have passed on neither have sex nor kill people. However, you appear to be saying that at some definable point prior to death God chooses people to be saints and from that point on they cease to live their normal lives and, rather, live as monastics. I've never heard this from anybody and I must say it sounds rather implausible. How long before death must this occur? I mean, I know of several martyrs who weren't even Christian until very shortly before their martyrdom having been converted by the example of others martyred before them. Or, to go back to one of my previous examples, St. Stephen the Great of Moldova. He was married several times and spent his entire life fighting the Turks (and most of his other neighbours) to protect Moldova and his faith. Only on his death bed did he encourage his son to make peace so long as the Turks guaranteed that they could remain Orthodox. Maybe then, he was 'chosen by God to be a saint' mere minutes before his passing? Or maybe your ideas are simply wrong?

James
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:06:21 AM by jmbejdl »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2012, 12:54:15 PM »
On a related note:
Quote
And if some of them turned out wicked, like straw growing up with the corn, we must not blame the sowers, nor those who tended the crop, just as we should admit that even some of our Saviour's disciples have erred from the right way through self-will. And this explanation of the ancient men of God begetting children cannot be said to apply to the Christians to-day, when by God's help through our Saviour's Gospel teaching we can see with our own eyes many peoples and nations in city and country and field all hastening together, and united in running to learn the godly course of the teaching of the Gospel, for whom I am glad to say we are able to provide teachers and preachers of the word of holiness, free from all ties of life and anxious thoughts. And in our day these men are necessarily devoted to |53 celibacy that they may have leisure for higher things; they have undertaken to bring up not one or two children but a prodigious number, and to educate them in godliness, and to care for their life generally. On the top of all this, if we carefully examine the lives of the ancient men of whom I am speaking, we shall find that they had children in early life, but later on abstained and ceased from having them. For it is written that "Enoch pleased God after Methusaleh was born." Scripture expressly records that he pleased God after the birth of his son, and tells nothing of his having children afterwards. And Noah, that just man, who was saved alone with his family when the whole world was destroyed, after the birth of his children, though he lived many years more, is not related to have begotten more children. And Isaac is said, after becoming the father of twins by one wife, to have ceased cohabitation with her. Joseph again (and this was when he lived among the Egyptians) was only the father of two sons, and married to their mother only, while Moses himself and Aaron his brother are recorded as having had children before the appearance of God, but after the giving of the divine oracles as having begotten no more children. What must I say of Melchisedek? He had no son at all, no family, no descendants. And the same is true of Joshua, the successor of Moses, and many other prophets.

If there is any question about the families of Abraham and Jacob, a longer discussion will be found in the book I wrote about the polygamy and large families of the ancient men of God. To this I must refer the student, only warning him that according to the laws of the new covenant the producing of children is certainly not forbidden, but the provisions are similar to those followed by the ancient men of God. "For a bishop," says the Scripture, "must be the husband of one wife." Yet it is fitting that |54 those in the priesthood and occupied in the service of God, should abstain after ordination from the intercourse of marriage. To all who have not undertaken this wondrous priesthood, Scripture almost completely gives way, when it says: "Marriage is honourable, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." This, then, is my answer to the first question.
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical history, 1:9


This was the quote provided. I don't see much in it myself, but I think the bolded is the most applicable.

Yes, I remember praise of celibacy by Eusebius and St. John (both of whom were celibate), but mandating it?  Even here that claim is pretty weak.

And it is undermined: Scripture expressly records that Enoch pleased God after the birth of his son, and tells us of his having children afterwards.
Quote
εὐηρέστησεν δὲ ενωχ τῷ θεῷ μετὰ τὸ γεννῆσαι αὐτὸν τὸν μαθουσαλα διακόσια ἔτη καὶ ἐγέννησεν υἱοὺς καὶ θυγατέρας

Isaac is said, after becoming the father of twins by one wife, to have continued cohabitation with her
Quote
ἐγένετο δὲ πολυχρόνιος ἐκεῖ παρακύψας δὲ αβιμελεχ ὁ βασιλεὺς γεραρων διὰ τῆς θυρίδος εἶδεν τὸν ισαακ παίζοντα μετὰ ρεβεκκας τῆς γυναικὸς αὐτοῦ
"It came about, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out through a window, and saw, and behold, Isaac was caressing his wife Rebekah." gen. 26:8

Melchisedek also had no parents, according to Hebrews.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:56:42 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2012, 01:46:31 AM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?

After looking at their economic holdings, me and a few others have some ideas about increasing their numbers and creating some heavy reforms.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2012, 09:31:48 AM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.

As I recall from the Clean Week Thursday service, Saint Mary of Egypt was not a prostitute as she refused to exchange sex for money--she was just a female version of Charlie Sheen.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
Should celibates be considered more holy or saintly than non-celibates, Zenovia? I mean, if a married person's sexual life is to be taken as an example of being "wrapped up in themselves", then why are our priests married, and many with children? Shouldn't we all just be monks and nuns...and then of course when we have no new Orthodox Christians (because nobody is making them...*ahem*), we can stop having this conversation. Maybe we'll even be so holy that we'll end up like the Shakers, who had a similar view of sex as an impediment to living a truly holy life and today are down to five members, from a height of 6,000.
5? Did they get another convert?

After looking at their economic holdings, me and a few others have some ideas about increasing their numbers and creating some heavy reforms.

They are destined for greatness, those shakers.
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Offline peteprint

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2012, 02:40:17 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

Were Joachim and Anna not holy at the time that they conceived the Theotokos?

As holy as they were gonna get, I suppose, Father...least till the lust wore off... :D

Zenovia is now on the ropes and that is too bad actually.  Never should have been pushed there...because, there is the time honored teaching of the fathers that sexual continence and virginity are the highest estates in life and for that reason St. Symeon the New Theologian taught that none but the monks would reach union with God in this life...

M.

I know I'm not in the right jurisdiction, but my priest is quite good, but I do prefer my elder in spiritual matters.  He is quite far away and it is difficult for me.   Anyway I knew immediately from your understanding and kindness that you were a Byzantine Catholic.  Thanks!   :angel:

Zenovia,

If I might ask, why do you associate understanding and kindness with Byzantine Catholics and not Orthodox (or for that matter Roman Catholics, OO's etc?)

I just thought it was a strange statement for you to make, as if there is something about the Byzantine Catholic Church that you find positive and appealing.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2012, 02:56:26 PM »
Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.

As I recall from the Clean Week Thursday service, Saint Mary of Egypt was not a prostitute as she refused to exchange sex for money--she was just a female version of Charlie Sheen.
wasn't that Madonna (the misnamed singer) in a previous life?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.
« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2012, 03:39:56 PM »
Zenovia, have you looked at the texts of the Orthodox marriage services I posted earlier in this thread?

No because what I am saying has nothing to do with marriage or the holiness of married people.  It has only to do with the excessive state of holiness in celibacy.  My posts have been misinterpreted...and I should also say deliberately so.  :)

A saint is a saint. Period. A married saint is not a "second-grade" saint behind the "first-grade" monastic saints. This is a dangerous and false dichotomy you're clinging to, Zenovia, and this notion of "excessive state of holiness" is one which has NO, repeat, NO doctrinal support in the Orthodox Church.

What in the d**** world does this have to do with what I'm saying?  I said that the saints we know of for sure, had no sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  As for those that were married, we do not know if they had sexual relations before achieving sanctity.  Where in the world do you get a false doctrine in that?  It seems that all you people are interpreting what I say in whichever way you want to for some personal self serving or ego gratifying agenda.

Well forget it...it doesn't work.  :P   

This "achieving" of sanctity you speak of does not sound like it proceeds from the Orthodox phronema. Sanctification is a process. Marriage is blessed by God. Raising children is one of the purposes of this marriage blessed by God. If it's blessed, the act is sanctified. There is no sin in husband and wife having lawful relations. It is no impediment to sanctity. If you say it is, you'll have to explain yourself to all the married saints.
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