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Author Topic: Sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy.  (Read 2686 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 17, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »

In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?   
Gnostic nonsense. police
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 07:45:46 PM »

In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?   
Gnostic nonsense. police

Which gnostics? My favorite gnostics (Carpocratians) advocated participating in all manner of sexual perversions (according to St. Irenaeus). 
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 08:12:01 PM »

....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  


In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy? 

All the Saints that were married are going to be surprised about this.
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 09:41:13 PM »

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 09:54:21 PM »

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »

Frankly I don't believe this is Orthodox  theology. 

...
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:11 PM »

I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.    
"St. John Chrysostom gave us the important teaching that almsgiving is higher than virginity, and avarice is worse than adultery.' These holy lives make clear that it is love that tames lust, not any pseudo-pious contempt for even the appropriate carnal corollary of love." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 10:20:04 PM »

Quote
but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.   

Zenovia, you might find it useful to examine the text of the Orthodox service of betrothal and marriage. And it is no accident that Christ performed His first miracle at a wedding.
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 10:28:21 PM »

Marriage is a sacrament. How then could it lack sanctity?

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 10:29:52 PM »

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.  When God calls a person to sainthood,  they begin to live in two 'existences',  a  heavenly one and a worldly one.     I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?  It requires a certain purity of soul, which would be negated by any worldly desires or needs they have.  Many saints lived only on the Eucharist.  

As an example; Saint John of Kronstadt was ordered by a head priest to marry his daughter.  He lived with her as brother and sister.  Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
  
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 10:33:51 PM »



Quote
In your view then, 'monasticism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?    

Celibacy in the RC is not about power, control, etc.,  it is simply a matter of economics.  The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   You know in another time and another place these homosexuals with their limited male sex drive, and which seem to abound in our society,  would have been influenced into entering the priesthood and thereby leading a more virtuous Christian life.  But they're not, so what do we get now in our topsy turvy world?  The virtues of monasticism being condemned and sinful lifestyles being lauded.  Sad

Really? That's a broad brush to paint the RC priesthood with and in my opinion, quite unfair. Frankly, we live in a more secular world and many of the men and women who are RC who would, in an earlier period of time, have become 'religious' ( i.e. Brothers, Sisters and clergy) won't accept the 'discipline' of celibacy and they have gone into other fields, such as social work, teaching etc....

 If you say celibacy is a discipline, then are you saying our saints merely acquired a discipline and that they weren't given the gift of celibacy from God?  Frankly I don't believe this is Orthodox  theology.  I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.      ...

Monasticism wasn't founded until at least a century after the church was founded, you realize? Also all this "virginity is superior to chaste marriage" stuff is pretty Roman and gnostic.
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 10:36:02 PM »

I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Because there's absolutely nothing (zilch, zero, nada) wrong with a married person desiring their spouse, we were originally made to do that before the fall.
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 10:36:07 PM »

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.
Marriage is a sacrament.

"Holy matrimony." Holy = Lat. sanctus
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 10:39:00 PM »

Zenovia, here's a link to the marriage services:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/betrotha.htm
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/crowning.htm

St John of Kronstadt's situation was most unusual among married couples, the norm was more like Sts Basil and Emilia.
Quote
I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Were the children of married saints conceived out of thin air?
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:26 PM »

I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.  
Then monastic profession would be usually numbered among the Great Holy Mysteries of the Church, as Marriage is.

Higher or lower state of 'Grace' isn't what you said: you denied sanctity to the married.

btw, some are celibate due to lack of opportunity otherwise.  Are they higher too?
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 10:56:26 PM »

sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy

"Saints Basil the Elder and Emelia begat nine children, among them Saints Basil the Great of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. Small wonder that Saint Gregory the Theologian declared their marriage a "union of souls and bodies." And Saints Joachim and Anna were rewarded, not rebuffed, by God in their repeated efforts to conceive; they were made grandparents to our All-loving Saviour." -Cf. Married Saints of the Church by Monk Moses of the Holy Mountain


To add to the above: Of the nine children born to Sts Basil the Elder and Emilia, five became saints: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina the Younger, Theosebeia the Deaconess, and Peter of Sebaste. St Emilia herself was the daughter of a saint, Macrina the Elder.

The parents of St Sergius of Radonezh are also saints: Cyril and Maria. Orthodox tradition is full of married saints, and many whose children have become saints.

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.  When God calls a person to sainthood,  they begin to live in two 'existences',  a  heavenly one and a worldly one.     I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?  It requires a certain purity of soul, which would be negated by any worldly desires or needs they have.  Many saints lived only on the Eucharist.  

As an example; Saint John of Kronstadt was ordered by a head priest to marry his daughter.  He lived with her as brother and sister.
 
against her wishes.  God through St. Paul has something to say on that:"don't."

"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 11:01:21 PM »

"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
laugh

Origen?
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 11:02:02 PM »

Quote
"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?

.... must be like being "a bit pregnant" ....  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2012, 11:02:09 PM »

I don't see how a person with carnal appetites can exist in the spiritual realm as well?

Because there's absolutely nothing (zilch, zero, nada) wrong with a married person desiring their spouse, we were originally made to do that before the fall.

I think Zenovia is incorrect and marriage is indeed blessed and holy, but a number of Fathers would disagree with the bolded portion.
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 11:40:58 PM »

God made marriage to be Holy, when he first created them man and woman. after the Incarnation the Lord began his first ministry with the blessing of the marriage in Canna.

sex within marriage is a beautiful sanctified act of complete and perfect love, the giving of self and the accepting of another with reverence, joy,and love. in such holy union the creator himself is present in that joining that goes deeper than the flesh, this union is protected and sanctified by Him, that which the lord has joined let no man divide, that includes those two involved, selfishness is the antithesis of genuine love, denying the other person of sex  without due reason ( factual health issues/as some have been known to fabricate them/, agreed upon fasting time , agreed upon reason for abstaining /whatever that may be/ that's all i can think of right now)is a sin against the person, thus against the marriage and it will open a door for the Evil One to enter.

from holy matrimony and within its holy union men are made perfect/ saints ( the married couple), and if God wills it, saints are born in the co-creation that is possible in this union. how sacred is this union! where I come from, under normal circumstances people do not sit on married couples bed, because it is seen as a very holy place of holy act,reserved only for them. in the country side, it is a part of genuine hospitality for them to receive a guest , wash the feet of the guest and  as a sign of greatly honoring the guest,leave their bed for the guest to sleep on and they sleep on either the floor or on another bed.

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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 01:19:20 AM »

This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 05:05:52 AM »

"highly celibate"-what in the world is that?
laugh

Origen?
Sort of eliminates marriage later.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »

When God calls a person to sainthood,
I have news for you, sister. We're ALL called to sainthood, every last one of us. Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »

Yes but the saints lived a highly celibate life before achieving sanctity.
Marriage is a sacrament.
Quite fitting it is, then, that the analogy of marriage is used so often in the Scriptures (both Old Testament and New) to speak of God's union with His people.

Even more telling it is that Jesus performed His first public miracle at a wedding. AT A WEDDING!
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2012, 10:23:48 AM »

Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  Shocked
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2012, 10:33:42 AM »

Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  Shocked

Here we go  Undecided
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2012, 10:34:42 AM »

This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »

This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.

That's not what's going on in this thread.  It has been proposed that one must be celibate to be a saint.
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »

Would you counsel those of us who are married to divorce their spouses in order to have more freedom to pursue life in whatever it is you call the "spiritual realm"?

You mean you haven't already?  Shocked

Here we go  Undecided

Where's your sense of humor?
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2012, 10:49:08 AM »

This thread has some interesting ideas in it. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled? (Hebrews 13)

I haven'y read through the thread for context, but some people misinterpret this verse as basically saying "anything goes" in the marriage bed, when actually it says that the marriage bed should be chaste and pure; undefiled by sexual immorality.
It says at the very least that the insertion of a husband's penis into his wife's vagina is not defiling, something many still have a problem with not considering it sexual immorality.  At the very least, Zenovia seems to think it prevents sanctity.

The husband inserting his penis into another woman or someone else's wife, or the wife allowing another man or someone else's husband insert his penis into her vagina, at the very least, is not included within marriage.

It says "marriage IS honorable," NOT "marriage SHOULD BE honorable."
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2012, 10:55:22 AM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
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No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2012, 03:53:52 PM »

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints. 

The more I read, the more I wonder if you're playing a practical joke on us.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2012, 04:00:41 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided

Oh you explained yourself the time before. You're just wrong.
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2012, 04:05:46 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2012, 05:15:29 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way. 

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
Quote
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.  I suggest you read about them because Orthodox books on these saints do exist.  There is a book by Chondropoulos on Saint Nektarios, and one on Saint Luke the Surgeon of Russia as well as books on future saints such as Elder Porphyrios, Elder Paisios, Father Arseny and even the fool for Christ, Crazy John of Athens. 

There are also future saints who are still alive  such as the Elder Amelianos and the Elder Ephraim of Arizona, and  also some who are  considered by many to be saints such as the Bishop of Limassol of Cyprus, and others... so I'm not pulling things out of thin air believe me.

 Hmmm!  You seem to know a lot of that spiritual guide stuff?  Kind of curious I think?   Huh
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2012, 05:25:10 PM »

Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way.  

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.
 
Quote
ah, so they become disembodied before that. sort of an out of body experience a la Shirley McClain.  gotcha.
Saints have to be heroically virtuous
ever been married?
and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.
OSAS is a heresy, you know.
I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided
No, you explained yourself quite well the first time.  What your views have to do with Orthodoxy remains unexplained.

We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.
I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.

I suggest you read about them because Orthodox books on these saints do exist.

you assUme I haven't.
There is a book by Chondropoulos on Saint Nektarios, and one on Saint Luke the Surgeon of Russia as well as books on future saints such as Elder Porphyrios, Elder Paisios, Father Arseny and even the fool for Christ, Crazy John of Athens.  

There are also future saints who are still alive  such as the Elder Amelianos and the Elder Ephraim of Arizona, and  also some who are  considered by many to be saints such as the Bishop of Limassol of Cyprus, and others... so I'm not pulling things out of thin air believe me.
I've met Elder Ephraim personally.  One of the best men at my wedding entered his monastery in Arizona.

Hmmm!  You seem to know a lot of that spiritual guide stuff?  Kind of curious I think?   Huh
a lot?  not so much.
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2012, 08:47:14 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2012, 10:30:33 PM »

Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them and of course a person can be married.  This has nothing to do though with the higher calling by God of celibacy in those  willing to serve the Church in a more sacrificial way.  

As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.  Saints have to be heroically virtuous, and signs have to be given by God to ascertain that virtue.  Of course they could have been married and living a holy life within that state, and by the same token they could also have been the greatest of sinners.  All I'm saying is that when they were called by God for the sacrifice of Sainthood, their worldly existence ceased to exist from that time on.

I really hope I explained myself this time..... Undecided

You know a lot of Saints before repenting were pagans, even outright demon worshipers and practitioners of sorcery like St. Cyprian?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:31:13 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2012, 10:55:13 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2012, 11:09:38 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel

They did not however, need to beg him for forgiveness for teaching the falsehood that celibacy is necessary for sanctity, because unlike you they knew and taught Orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2012, 11:31:26 PM »


I would say that St. Serafim could take it up with the Church, but he is at peace with the Church which has taken up his cause.  So I'll take it up with your interpretation of him.

You say that in a way that can be very misleading.  I would like you to clarify yourself and give me your interpretation of what Saint Seraphim meant? 

Quote
Quote
We can only relate how the saints  lived in the past, by comparing their lives  to the lives of our more recent saints... and they abound believe me, especially in Greece.

I've been there.  Porn and prostitutes abound there as well.

Of course Porn and prostitutes abound there,  otherwise there wouldn't be so many saints.  It's God's way of calling the people to repent. The Greek Church is more or less underground since it is a very secular society...as is the rest of Europe.  But under those circumstances, Christians are usually more sincere and  devout.  Twenty years ago the monasteries were empty and falling apart, but in the past decade they have been growing full force.   I know of some nuns who alone managed to restore and start about sixteen of them.  They are not the only ones.   

Quote
They (saints, that is) abound in North America, especially if you look.

I have not heard of any, although I do know that Elder Ephraim is a saint, otherwise he would not have been able to accomplish what he did and I feel the Elder Joseph of Saint Nektarios Monastery might also be a saint.   I have a cousin that's a monk and something unusual occurred when he was a baby, which makes me wonder if he might become a saint.  He has a very pure soul.  angel 



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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2012, 11:55:09 PM »

 Also Saint Xenia of Saint Petersburg began her spiritual pilgrimage after the death of her husband, as did Saint Elizabeth. angel 
Undecided
No, she didn't: she was received into Orthodoxy when her husband was very much alive.

Baptism only illuminates one towards becoming a Christian.  A person starts their spiritual pilgrimage when  they acquire the Holy Spirit within them

that would be chrismation: "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!"

THE SEAL!

I say you take it up with Saint Seraphim of Sarov.
What did St. Seraphim of Sarov have to say about your pet issue?
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2012, 11:58:20 PM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?  If our newer saints are any example, (as they should be), then the saints were definitely celibate when God called them to live a life of 'sacrificial' dedication.

I personally stand in awe of them for their heroic virtue, as we all should. ..and yet even to their dying hour the saints begged God to forgive them for their manifold sins.   angel
among which was not their embrace with their spouse.

You can read several lives of the saints, of the proof of the sanctity from an early age, after which they had children, and not by parthenogenesis....  Hence we don't need to be in their bedrooms.
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« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 12:00:11 AM »

Quote
As for the Saints of the Church, none of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints, otherwise they would not be considered saints.


St Mary of Egypt, anyone? And she's by no means the only example.

I don't mean to be rude, but from what you and others are saying, I gather you were all in their bedrooms  during the last years of their lives?
No, they're just taking your words literally. You said, "None of them lived a carnal existence before becoming saints." What else is that supposed to mean? Before she became a saint, St. Mary of Egypt was a whore.
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