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Author Topic: Confirmation & Communion  (Read 13932 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2004, 08:30:10 PM »

Jakub,

There is a fine line between an attack and a criticism, and when we see an attack on an individual someone of any persuation, we issue warnings or corrections.  Also, membership is growing every month here. Thank you.

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« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2004, 09:17:58 PM »

[I guess the Lord missed a few when He granted common sense & manners.

Indeed this is a forum which allows & relishes the bashing of others by its Orthodox members, wondered why membership is shrinking.]

You mean like non-Orthodox coming in and, because they don't like what a person is posting,  they make snide remarks and innuendos about his priest who wasn't part of it in any way, shape, or form?
Or attacking the forum moderators or the forum itself?

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« Reply #92 on: November 04, 2004, 09:33:17 PM »

[Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

If you know then why are you asking me?  But since you asked it was most probably King Sigmund-August II.Huh


[Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed]

The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia - by * Professor Dimitry Pospielovsky???
Huh
(*)  Dimitry Pospielovsky is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Western Ontario.  He is the author of The Russian Church Under The Soviet Regime, 1917-1982v (SVS Press, 1984) and is one of the foremost authorities on Russian Church History.

Page 93

The laity, the parish clergy, and particularly the brotherhoods refused to accept the union with Rome. The protest movement developed and spread quickly, joined at first by a single bishop, Gideon (Bolodan) of Lvov. The Polish King gave in to these pressures and authorized the convening of a local council of those bishops, clergy and laity of the Roman and Greek Church who accepted the papacy --i.e. those who did not accept the Unia were not invited.

The Council met in the city of Brest on October 6, 1596. In order to prevent a parallel Orthodox council in any of the numerious Orthodox Churches in the city, the now Uniate Metropolitan of Kiev sealed all Orthodox Churches on the day before the Council was to begin, except for the cathedral where the Council was to take place. The Orthodox, nevertheless, converged on Brest as well, with prince Ostrozhskii and his private army at the head. Failing to find an open church, and after waiting in vain for an invitation from the Uniates, they accepted an offer of a Protestant church school for a separate Orthodox Council. The Uniate Council passed a resolution excommunicating all the Orthodox clergy and laity participating in the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox in turn suspended all the clergy and lay participants in the Uniate Council and addressed a petition to the King, asking him to deprive "the traitors" of their dioceses and parishes. But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

Page 96

The Polish government could ill afford continuous persecutions of the Orthodox. A war with Turkey loomed on the horizon, and in 1621 the Cossacks presented an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all persecutions of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks.  In response, the 1623 Sejm declared toleration of the Orthodox Church and permitted the legitimization of Orthodox bishops and the restoration of their dioceses.

========

But the joy of the Orthodox was short-lived.  The legalization of the Orthodox Church resulted in mass return to Orthodoxy especially in Eastern Belorussia.  This resulted in mass attacks on Orthodox households  and Churches led by bishop Josaphat (Kuntsevish).  The citizens revolted which resulted in Josaphat's death.  

Roman Catholic revenge was immediate and brutal.  All Orthodox Churches were once again confiscated or closed.  Everywhere in the commonwealth the Orthodox lost the right not only to build but to  repair churches; Pope Urban VII proclaimed that any Roman Catholic who dared to oppose the use of the sword against the Orthodox would be excommunicated.

=======

Now, since we have gotten way of he original subject of this thread as well as the 'papal Catholic' issue, if you want to continue this open up a new thread.

Orthodoc
Since when is Poland Russia?
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« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2004, 09:48:08 PM »

Bob,

Where & what & who's priest are you talking about ? Show me where I mentioned your priest.

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« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2004, 10:49:48 PM »

[Since when is Poland Russia?]

The area we are talking about was conquered by Poland and became part of the Polish empire in the 16th & 17th centuries.  Read your history.  The area where my grandparents came from is still under Polish rule.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2004, 10:54:15 PM »

[Where & what & who's priest are you talking about ? Show me where I mentioned your priest.]

Show me where I said it was you.

Read post #73 by Lemko Rusyn and then tell me what justification he has for bringing this up.  What does it have to do with the subject matter?  

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« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2004, 12:02:52 AM »

Orthodoc,

I have no idea who Lemko is referring to or what prompted it, its appears you both do.

Now are you asking me if I would comment about your priest/spiritual advisor, very unlikely, I have 0 knowledge to reference.

james

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« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2004, 01:23:57 AM »

[Since when is Poland Russia?]

The area we are talking about was conquered by Poland and became part of the Polish empire in the 16th & 17th centuries.  Read your history.  The area where my grandparents came from is still under Polish rule.

Orthodoc
Don't make me laugh!!!  Lithaunia/Rus and Poland were joined together in 1386 with the conversion of Jagiello.  Lwow was Polish in the late 1000's... Boleslaw Chrobry in early eleventh century ruled over Kijev... Where are you grandparents from?
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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2004, 09:52:03 AM »

[Where are you grandparents from?]

Open up a new thread and I'll tell you.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2004, 10:04:04 AM »



[I have no idea who Lemko is referring to or what prompted it, its appears you both do.]



Neither do I. Since it has nothing to do with the subject matter.   I brought it up in response your accusing this form and the Orthodox Catholics in it of being rude and lacking manners etc.

I copied Lemko Rusyn's remarks about my priest whom I respect and admire very much.  We have a great relationship.  This is his response which is posted with his permission -

---------

Why does'nt "Lemko Rusyn" reveal himself?  Yes,I was baptized in a GC Church but not as a GC,but as a Christian. I have never benn ashamed of my upbringing in the GC Church. I have always honored,respected,and pray for my past Pastor,the late Fr.Theodore Ladomirsky.A fine man who was educated in Europe and I can still see him serving the DL. I always remembered him censing the whole temple before the Liturgy while the 3rd hour was being read....However,like so many GCs I learned the truth of my ancestry from history which told me that ALL GCs were Orthodox until the 16th century when forced to accept the Roman Rule. I then left the church of my birth and was accepted into the Church which was,and is, the Mother of the GC Church...My Aunts and Uncles in Jessup were very loving and caring and I would never speak disrespectfully of them. As a matter of fact they were very proud of their nephew who became a Priest. It didnt matter to them that I became an Orthodox Priest which was the Faith of my mother,maternal grandparents and Aunts and Uncles on my mothers side. As a matter of fact,my father left his GC Church and became Orthodox 3 years before I did...And he was  GC longer than me...naturally. And I will always remember my Russian School teacher Mr.Koch (Alexander) the day he asked all in the class what we wanted to be when we grew up,and I replied "A Priest". He asked me to stay after class,only to tell me that we was happy to hear that.  And then  he said "When you become a priest,become an Orthodox Priest." I still believe he said that because he somehow knew that in the future the GC Church would become more "latinized"....

----------

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« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2004, 10:15:00 AM »

Orthodoc,

Wow...

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« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2004, 11:14:26 AM »

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[Where are you grandparents from?]

Open up a new thread and I'll tell you.

FYI, I already started a thread where one can describe one's ethnic heritage.
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« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2004, 02:01:24 PM »

Yes, let's stick to the thread Serge opened, so we don't have a mulitplicity of threads of the same subject matter.

Anastasios
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« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2004, 04:04:52 PM »

>>>You mean like non-Orthodox coming in and, because they don't like what a person is posting,  they make snide remarks and innuendos about his priest who wasn't part of it in any way, shape, or form?

What snide remarks?  Just because I know the Geeza family is from such-and-such Uniat church in Jessup, Pa.?  You always bring up your pastor in the context of your slams against the "Unia".  You also highly esteem your pastor in many other postings.  So I was curious if perhaps your pastor was the source of your scorn.  I think what you posted above from him (which I didn't really read yet) answers my question.

No offense towards Father Geeza was intended!
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« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2004, 04:29:44 PM »

>>>Yes,I was baptized in a GC Church but not as a GC,but as a Christian. I have never benn ashamed of my upbringing in the GC Church. I have always honored,respected,and pray for my past Pastor,the late Fr.Theodore Ladomirsky.A fine man who was educated in Europe and I can still see him serving the DL. I always remembered him censing the whole temple before the Liturgy while the 3rd hour was being read....


This is one of the more affectionate and charitable things I've read by a baptized-former GC.  Please thank Fr. Geeza for sharing these thoughts.

You know what, orthodoc?  Generations of Greek Catholics lived their whole lives completely happy being Greek Catholics, and that Church, and the life in Christ it gave them, was their joy and their treasure.  I'd even bet that most of them are in Heaven...   (And when it came time, some even chose to die for that Church, in the Name of Christ.)  Don't scorn or pity those people.  Emulate them!

They never had reason to seek the "return to the Orthodoxy" until others interfered: the RC hierarchy, the Austrians, the Soviets.  And here in the USA we have a different struggle: against the interference of our own leaders.
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« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2004, 04:57:39 PM »

[You always bring up your pastor in the context of your slams against the "Unia".]

That is an outright lie!  Give me just one example where I have brought up my Pastor in the context of what you call my slams against the "Unia".  Either here or elsewhere. I have never implicated him other to once again state the truth.  Which is that both he and his brother were former members of the Unia that converted to Orthodoxy and became Orthodox Catholic priests

[You also highly esteem your pastor in many other postings.]

Yes I do.  As I have stated, I have the deepest respect and admiration for him.  We have a great relationship as both Pastor/parishioner and friends.  I have benefited from the years he has been my pastor and learned a lot from him.  And I'm not ashamed to say it.

I also have a deep love not only for him but the entire parish and write about those relationships often because I'm proud of them and they mean a lot to me..

[So I was curious if perhaps your pastor was the source of your scorn.]

My Pastor has yet to chastize me for anything I write here or elsewhere.  A lot of which he reads.  Your explaination on why you brought him into this doesn't fly!

Orthodoc


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« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2004, 05:13:39 PM »

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Your explaination on why you brought him into this doesn't fly!

Actually, I think it does.  L-R asked a valid question, considering your pastor has GC relatives and he knows the esteem in which you hold him.  However, you answered the question.  Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  
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« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2004, 06:16:51 PM »

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Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

I agree with Schultz, let's put an end to this before it gets even more ridiculous.

Quote
I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.

A stupid German? I thought you were a Hell-screamin' and cussin' RC punk?  Tongue

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« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2004, 02:54:18 PM »

I haven't posted here for awhile, but this question of church naming really got me thinking.  Maybe we Western Orthodox should start calling ourselves "Catholics in Communion with Antioch".  Or perhaps, "Non-papal Catholics".  Or how about "Occidental Orthodox"?  After all, in the US, "Western" might conjure up the wrong images - cowboys, corrals, saloons, etc.  And as a Redskin fan I sure don't want to be associated with Cowboys.

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« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2004, 02:59:07 PM »

I actually like the phrase "Occidental Orthodox".  That's great!
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« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2004, 09:11:45 PM »

I don't know where it was mentioned, but I believe someone in this thread brought up the fact that Hispanic Catholics will baptise and confirm before first communion, and the sense I got from that particular post was that these two sacraments were even done together at the same ceremony.  I had a friend who was baptised as an infant and confirmed at five, and communed at seven.  Are there really babies who get baptised and confirmed at the same time among the Roman Catholics?
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« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2004, 10:32:45 PM »

I don't know where it was mentioned, but I believe someone in this thread brought up the fact that Hispanic Catholics will baptise and confirm before first communion, and the sense I got from that particular post was that these two sacraments were even done together at the same ceremony.  I had a friend who was baptised as an infant and confirmed at five, and communed at seven.  Are there really babies who get baptised and confirmed at the same time among the Roman Catholics?  
Actually Pope Pius X allowed the First Holy Communion to be received before Confirmation. Up to then, it was like you said[baptism,age 0. confirmation,anytime a bishop comes during the child's childhood , and Holy COmmunion after.
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« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2004, 10:44:49 PM »

The current custom of confirming RC's as teenagers is a relatively modern one..it was not unusual for children to be confirmed (as CatholicEagle pointed out) whenever a bishop could visit certain parts of the diocese. This has become less common with the advent of modern travel by highway, train and air. But as recetly as the 1910's my grandmother was confirmed at age 5 since she lived in the rural part of a geographically spread out diocese and the bishop was only able to come every few years. This may still be the custom in some mission lands.
Up until the 70's in the Lutherans and Ep[iscopalians required members to be confirmed before receiving Communion; pedeo-communion is now very common in the Episcopal church, I'm not sure about the Lutherans.
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« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2004, 07:00:02 PM »

Queen Elizabeth I was confirmed as an infant, but given her royal status and the religious changes taking place at that time, it is not clear whether that was the normative practice in late medieval England.

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« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2004, 11:37:51 PM »

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  

Plus your a Roman Catholic!  Grin Grin Grin

Aren't you supposed to be Lutheran?
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« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2004, 12:27:16 AM »

Actually, I think it does.  L-R asked a valid question, considering your pastor has GC relatives and he knows the esteem in which you hold him.  However, you answered the question.  Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  



The very fact that you envision it as an ethnic squabble  attests to the fact that you are right.  You haven't the slightest clue.

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« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2004, 11:47:44 AM »

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Re:Schismatic "traditionalist" groups AKA Groups to avoid at ALL cost
-½ Reply #116 on: Wed, November 06, 2002, 11:23:22 AM -+  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Schultz:

From your last name I am assuming that you are neither what is called a 'cradle Orthodox' nor from a slavic back ground.  If I have this wrong I apologize to you.

To those of us who are Orthodox Catholic and from a slavic (some times Eastern Catholic) background these issues are much more than name calling.  In fact, they are sore spots because of the pain and confusion they inflicted upon our ancestors.


My dearest Bob,

My comment about my ethnicity refers to the first post you ever made concerning me, re-posted above for the benefit of your memory.  

Perhaps "squabbles" was not the right word.  Perhaps ethnic "concerns" is a better one, because your original post to me made it quite clear that I have no idea what's going on because I'm not a Slav and, hence, I can't understand the "pain and confusion" you and your other Slavic brethren go through.

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