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Arystarcus
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2004, 07:08:24 PM »

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P.S.  I thought you signed off?

Now that isn't very nice....  :-";"xx
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2004, 07:11:59 PM »

>>>We want you and every other Catholic to become Orthodox because we believe that it is the Church of Christ.  That's not thinly veiled, it's not disguised. We want you to come home to Orthodoxy and be one with us. If your entire Church comes, then that is a billion times better. But if it won't come, we want YOU to come, Father Lance.

This is almost humorous coming from someone who's just spilled a heap of virtual ink defending the fact that he has yet to formally enter the Orthodoxy and still receives Uniat "mysteries". Huh

Anastasios, who exactly is your bishop?  And what faith does that bishop confess?  Orthodox Christian, or Heterodox?
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2004, 07:16:55 PM »

I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2004, 07:17:31 PM »

Faith moves mountains. Patience is a virtue. Anastasios will find his way in his own time.  I feel he is an excellent defender of Orthodox beliefs.

JoeS

//This is almost humorous coming from someone who's just spilled a heap of virtual ink defending the fact that he has yet to formally enter the Orthodoxy and still receives Uniat "mysteries".//
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2004, 07:45:59 PM »

Anastasios,

I will stand by my statements.  People should be called by the name they use not one invented by another.  Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches.  Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a place on a forum that is for fraternal dialogue.  And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here.

As to fundamentalism, is this place as bad as the E-cafe or Indiana list? No.  Is it headed in a similar direction? You tell me.  Calling the Orthodox graceless heretics would not be tolerated at byzcath, but calling Catholics such is tolerated here.

My prayer was neither a weapon or a threat, but meant as a sincere parting gesture, which is why I said: "You will remain in my prayers" as opposed to "I will pray for you pitiful losers to be enlightened."

And as you want Catholics to become Orthodox I also want Orthodox to become Catholic so there we have it.  The difference again is at byzcath an Orthodox may freely encourage a Catholic to investigate the Orthodox Church if one is swaying that way.  A Catholic cannot do so here.

If you want to have a forum about sincere dialogue everybody has to get a fair shake.  The Catholic Church has to be treated as a seperated Sister Church not another heretical sect to be converted to Orthodoxy, otherwise you become the Orthodox version of Yourcatholic.com.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2004, 08:08:42 PM »

Father Lance,

If I had created the term papal Catholic, then you would have a point. If I enforced the term papal Catholic, you would have a point. But a group of people in discussion created that term 2 years ago.  I don't see it as equivalent to Greek Schismatic. You do. We see differently I guess.

I have no problem calling Catholics Catholic and Orthodox Orthodox. But to some of our posters, this hearkens back to a time when words meant something far greater than they do now.  We also have to take into account people online who say that Orthodox are not Catholic and that they aren't really Orthodox either since they deny the papal doctrines. It may be a specific, ultramontane variety of Catholic, but it is nevertheless prevalent.

Fr Lance, you are welcome to continue posting on this forum. It's duly noted that you don't like the term papal Catholic.  How would you suggest that we instead address your Communion when we want to differentitate it from ours, which also styles itself Catholic?  We can talk about your suggestions.

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« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2004, 08:21:38 PM »

Anastasios,

Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, would be fine, as are Byzantine, Ukrainian, Maronite, (fill in name) Catholic Church etc.  I do not think this should confuse or offend anyone as no Orthodox Church in the English speaking world uses these designations without the qualifier Orthodox.

And let it be noted that by using these terms I am not trying to deny the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church or deny her the name.

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« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2004, 08:24:27 PM »

Agreeing with Deacon Lance on his last post, I find it most interesting that the 3 priests within Orthodoxy(Antiochian,Coptic and Romanian) that I communicate with introduce me to others as James, a Latin or Roman Catholic. I might be a cradle RC, but there is a trace of Eastern Catholic & PNC floating in the background.


I will visit here on & off, but this labeling has a bitter taste.

Pokoj,
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« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2004, 08:41:10 PM »

[Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches. Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a p[lace on a forum that for fraternal dialogue. And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here. ]

Oh, so now those of us who defend our Catholicity as Orthodox Christians in our own discussion group are labeled as fundamentalist Orthodox who lack common sense when we differentiate our catholicity from those of you who accept papal authority?!

[Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a p[lace on a forum that for fraternal dialogue. And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here. ]

Sez who?  Maybe you better send an email to this following "Papal Catholic University'  to let them know they are really calling themselves Catholic schismatics. -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6916640&dopt=Abstract
 

As I have alluded to before, no one uses the term 'papal' more than the papal Catholic Church itself.

I guess the following papal Catholic website is really referring to schismatic documents when it uses the terminology 'papal documents' -

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatstmts/


Documents of Vatican II
Encyclicals and Other Papal Documents


Orthodoc



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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2004, 08:55:23 PM »

If I can poke my head into this once more...

No one means offense by the term "papal Catholic," and it shouldn't be used to denigrate the churches under Rome.  When you call someone a schismatic, there is offense meant, and it's pretty obvious.  The "papal" part is just to distinguish that they are under the authority of the Pope.  It would only be used when trying to refer to both the Eastern and Western Catholic churches, all under Rome, without having to type or write so much.  The only reason that it seems people shy away from JUST Catholic and JUST Orthodox is because they all recognise that the other side will feel robbed of their Catholicity or Orthodoxy.  So yes, we make little clarifiers.  If there is a better word to describe Eastern and Western Catholic churches, I'm sure everyone would be open to it.
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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2004, 08:55:26 PM »

And the winner for using the word "Papal" the most times in a single post is....

[dramatic pause]...........[/dramatic pause]

Orthodoc!

 Grin   :smiley1:    Wink
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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2004, 09:19:37 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.

You don't need a phd or a diploma from Havard to identify the intent of the word papal and its use by Orthodoc.

Its a endless circle topic here, too bad.

james

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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2004, 09:29:13 PM »

[And the winner for using the word "Papal" the most times in a single post is....]

Check again.  I use the term 'papal Catholic' not 'Papal Catholic' as you say.  There is a big difference.  the small 'p' with the capitol 'C' puts the emphasis on the Catholic not on the papal.  It clarifies the type of Catholic I am speaking of (those who recognize papal authority as opposed to those that don't within the Holy Catholic  and Apostolic Church.

Father Deacon Lance claims he doesn't deny us our 'catholicity'. But  that is exactly  what he is doing when he comes into an Orthodox Catholic site and complains  to us [who are the original 'Byzantines' and 'Eastern' Christian portion of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic  Church] that we concede those identities to his church.  A church  which left both the Byzantine Church and the Eastern Church for allegiance to Rome & the authority of the Pope.  

Just yesterday or the day before he posted in one of his replies to me that he praises the fact that his church restored communion with Rome and the Pope.  But yet he considers the word 'papal' in any kind of identity of his church as an insult.  Makes no sense.

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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2004, 09:49:22 PM »

[There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.]

You don't get around too much, do you?

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/krehel_orthodox_catholic_faith.htm

Speaking of Alex (Dr Alexander Roman) who identifies himself as an Orthodox Catholic and a member of the UGCC over THERE.  Lets see what that same Alex writes in his answer to the question of 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'  in the Ukrainian Orthodox website where he is one of the monitors of the Questions & Answers section -

====

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/capitalletters.htm


Answer:It is true that there are a number of Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests who insist on calling themselves "Orthodox Christians in union with Rome." This is however a term which is based on a fallacy and which therefore makes no sense, apart from the fact that it is also offensive to Orthodox Christians. To be an "Orthodox Christian" in the truest sense of the word is to be a member of the One, Holy, Orthodox-Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of this Church, due to a number of (new) doctrines it espouses, including those affecting the position of the Pope of Rome. Even if a Greek Catholic calls himself or herself an "Orthodox Christian," as is done in the Liturgy anyway, and even if he or she accepts the majority of Eastern positions on the issue of the Procession of the Holy Spirit etc., that does not mean that he or she really is an "Orthodox Christian" in the true sense of the word.


========

Quite a contradiction.  Wouldn't you say?

Orthodoc


   
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2004, 09:56:09 PM »

Quote
Check again.  I use the term 'papal Catholic' not 'Papal Catholic' as you say.

I didn't say "papal Catholic" or "Papal Catholic", all I said was Papal, as in a general use of the word. It was meant as a joke, you know, ha ha?
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« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2004, 10:21:29 PM »

>>>I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

Forgive me, Anastasios, I was reading something last week you posted over a year ago & didn't take note of the date.

God bless you and your wife.  Glad she's doing better.
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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2004, 10:27:47 PM »

Orthodoc,

I'm not in the dark regarding Alex, nor the Ukrainian Orthodox site, but before you label someone remember, not all members that identify themselves as Roman Catholics confess the same ideology regarding the Pope etc.

So do whatever floats your boat, but don't include me within your definition, I can be awfully cantankerous.

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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2004, 10:43:32 PM »

>>>I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

Forgive me, Anastasios, I was reading something last week you posted over a year ago & didn't take note of the date.

God bless you and your wife.  Glad she's doing better.

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

I do not hold it against you. Thank you for your contributions to this site and I hope to see you continue to post.  And thank you for your consideration for my wife, who is thankfully feeling much better.

Anastasios
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2004, 11:13:04 PM »

Jakub,

Thank you also for your many wonderful posts to the forum. Please keep posting as you feel you can.

Anastasios
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« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2004, 11:23:11 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.


Posted elsewhere on these boards in the past is the fact that the canonical name of the Orthodox Church is the "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East". Even Bishop Ware cites this in his popular The Orthodox Church.
I personally use the term "Orthodox Catholic" just about every single day and have done so since 1962 when my father informed me that WE were 'Catholics' and that my neighhorhood debate opponents were 'Roman' Catholics.
Indeed, I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.

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« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2004, 11:35:01 PM »

Anastasios,

I will stand by my statements.  People should be called by the name they use not one invented by another.  Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches.  Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a place on a forum that is for fraternal dialogue.  And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here.


How ironic! You object to the use of a new or less used (and not incorrect) term referring to your communion and then coin a new one for ours -"National Orthodox Churches" - I've never seen that one. I assume you meant the contradiction.

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« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2004, 11:59:02 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.

Oye, compadre, I use "Orthodox Catholic" to identify myself when talking with folks I know are members of the Catholic Church ICWR (how's that for an alternative?!  Grin).
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« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2004, 11:59:14 PM »

Demetri,

Apologies.  Autocephalous/Autonomous would have been the better choice there.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2004, 04:23:26 AM »

Indeed, I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.


Or 'Roman Catholic', seeing as the Roman Empire continued to exist with its capitol at Constantinople long after Rome had fallen. Greeks have the longest standing and most recent historical claim to being Romans Wink Grin

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« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2004, 09:13:30 AM »

Or 'Roman Catholic', seeing as the Roman Empire continued to exist with its capitol at Constantinople long after Rome had fallen. Greeks have the longest standing and most recent historical claim to being Romans Wink Grin

John

You know, John...you're right!!!

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« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2004, 12:29:12 PM »

 [I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.]

Exactly!  The same as 'Byzantine Catholic' or 'Eastern Catholic'.  Problem is that there are very few identities that this church can come up with (that refuse to acknowledge their alliegance to Rome and papal authority) that correctly identifies them for what they are.  Which is a part of the papal Catholic Church who still retains the customs and liturgics of the church their ancestors turned their backs on to pledge alliegance to the Pope in the later part of the 16th century or the early part of the 17th century.

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« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2004, 12:47:22 PM »

Orthodoc,
One of our local "Byzantine Catholic" parishes has the following signage:

St. Anne's Roman Catholic Church
        (Byzantine Rite)

At the least, they are honest.


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« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2004, 01:12:32 PM »

[Orthodoc,
One of our local "Byzantine Catholic" parishes has the following signage:

St. Anne's Roman Catholic Church
    (Byzantine Rite)

At the least, they are honest.]

Yes they are and I deeply admire and respect such honesty!  I know that if I accepted Papal Supremacy and acknowledged an alliegance to Rome I would be proud to profess that fact.  I certainly wouldn't take it as an insult whenever someone reminded me of it.

I agree that the word 'papist'  is a very derogatory term coined by the Protestants.  That is why I never use such a term.  But as I have stated before, 'papist' and 'papal' are two separate and distinct words with two different meanings.  If those who come in here try and connect the two then it isn't my fault.  I use the term to distinguish my 'catholicity' from theirs.  Some seem to connect the word 'papal' with the word schismatic.  Why?  I don't know.  When a new Pope is elected he takes what is referred to as a "Papal Oath'.  Does that mean he is taking a schismatic oath?  Of course not!

Orthodoc



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« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2004, 01:15:07 PM »

>>>who still retains the customs and liturgics of the church their ancestors turned their backs on to pledge alliegance to the Pope

Pot, kettle.  Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.

I really don't get where your hostility is coming from.  Does your baptized-Greek-Catholic pastor share your attitude?  Does he speak so disrespectfully of his aunts & uncles who were dedicated members of the Uniat church in Jessup, Pa.?

What would happen if your genealogical research happened to turn up an ancestor who was a proud Papist in his or her village in Lemkovyna?
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« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2004, 01:34:32 PM »

Orthodoc,

 Your judgements and accusations are becoming meaningless rhetoric cast into the wind.

james
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« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2004, 01:44:01 PM »

[Pot, kettle. Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.]

My grandparents didn't have a choice when they were in Europe.  The Orthodox Church was restricted in the area they came from.  That's why they were taught if they ever left and went where there were 'Pravoslavny' (Orthodox) they must return to their true faith and heritage.  Which is exactly what they did when they arrived here in the U.S.  The whole parish I was brought up in did the same thing.

You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.  But the Polish king did the same thing to the Orthodox Catholics within the Orthodox lands he conquered after the Union of Brest was signed.  Rather than having to suffer in silence for 50 years like the Unia did, my ancestors had to suffer in silence for almost 400 years because of that edict put out by the Polish King -

======

But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, 1596 LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

=======

Orthodoc

P.S.  My Greek Catholic baptised priest reads what I write and has yet to disagree with what I write.  And, since when does speaking the truth denote disrespect to anyone or anything?

-----------

[Orthodoc,

Your judgements and accusations are becoming meaningless rhetoric cast into the wind.

james ]

Then why are you still here  reading them?

orthodoc



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« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2004, 01:55:52 PM »

I need a good laugh.

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« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2004, 01:56:30 PM »

>>>You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.

Yes, but have you ever?

Yes, we are kind of annoyed that our clergy were sent to the gulag and that our bishops were murdered or left to die in prison.  This adds to, not negates or minimizes, the persecution and suffering of the Orthodox due to his brutality.  Greek Catholic - Orthodox isn't a zero-sum game.  (Now we're way off topic, though. My point is made.)
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« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2004, 02:20:37 PM »

[Yes, we are kind of annoyed that our clergy were sent to the gulag and that our bishops were murdered or left to die in prison.  This adds to, not negates or minimizes, the persecution and suffering of the Orthodox due to his brutality.  Greek Catholic - Orthodox isn't a zero-sum game.  (Now we're way off topic, though. My point is made.)]

Multiply that by 350+ years and you'll see how we feel!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2004, 04:41:48 PM »

I have been delayed in response due to my anti-virus scan(7 found).

Anyway, Orthodoc, let us acknowledge that we agree to disagree regarding certain items of faith and beliefs, let me say that my daily prayers most likely resemble yours, with some minor quirks, but let me say that I pray for both the Eastern & Western Churches and their particular clergy and brethern.

I am not your enemy nor trying to be one, but I am trying to understand you and others, however I will not participate in any discussion unless it is done in a charitable way.

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« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2004, 05:12:13 PM »

[I am not your enemy nor trying to be one, but I am trying to understand you and others, however I will not participate in any discussion unless it is done in a charitable way.]

So any discussion that is opposed to your way of thinking will be considered as uncharitable.  Even if it is the truth?

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« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2004, 05:52:52 PM »

Nothing is less compelling than a "your ancestors persecuted my anscestors!" squabble. Let the dead bury the dead.
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« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2004, 06:09:10 PM »

Nothing is less compelling than a "your ancestors persecuted my anscestors!" squabble. Let the dead bury the dead.


 Let the Church chant "Amin!"
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« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2004, 06:25:41 PM »

Charitable to me is presenting your idea without the BS description that you attach to another member or his faith.

Its the truth as YOU understand & know, but  have YOU attained perfection ? Are YOU spiritually perfected ? Are YOU without stain ?

If this site professes to be open to all, Orthodox & non-Orthodox, it needs to amend its rules, if not then restrict it to Orthodox Only and you all can condemn & gossip about the rest of us.

There appears to be a disconnect somewhere other then me.

Play your game Bob as a single.

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« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2004, 06:28:21 PM »


 I just want to say that it is good to see "Lemko Rusyn" again on a board!!!!  Hey man!!
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« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2004, 06:44:10 PM »

[Pot, kettle. Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.]

My grandparents didn't have a choice when they were in Europe.  The Orthodox Church was restricted in the area they came from.  That's why they were taught if they ever left and went where there were 'Pravoslavny' (Orthodox) they must return to their true faith and heritage.  Which is exactly what they did when they arrived here in the U.S.  The whole parish I was brought up in did the same thing.

You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.  But the Polish king did the same thing to the Orthodox Catholics within the Orthodox lands he conquered after the Union of Brest was signed.  Rather than having to suffer in silence for 50 years like the Unia did, my ancestors had to suffer in silence for almost 400 years because of that edict put out by the Polish King -

======
But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, 1596 LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.
=======
Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed[this king ruled poland for 37 more years after this dekret].. Poland was called the kingdom of Erasmus [by Adam Zamoyski,in the book The Polish Way]  for its multiplicity of false faiths[Polish arians, lutherans,anabaptists, unitarians,universalists, and other such crude.] The worse I have heard was that the Orthodox bishops were not recognized as bishops, until 1632, with their respective sees but the Orthodox faithful were not called treasonous.. Poland was never like autocratic Russia. We had no oprochniki attacking and subverting the nobles-- Polish nobles were the  literal kings of their estates . We had no soldiers attacking religious sects. Poland never had an inquisition[sadly,tho]
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« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2004, 06:45:07 PM »


 I just want to say that it is good to see "Lemko Rusyn" again on a board!!!!  Hey man!!

I'm happy to see you posting again, buddy!

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« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2004, 07:03:33 PM »

[Charitable to me is presenting your idea without the BS description that you attach to another member or his faith.]

And that is your personal opinion which you are entitled to as I am mine.  Only problem is that you dismiss anything stated that you do not like as  a BS  discription.  May I remind you that this is a discussion site.  If you think what I say is BS then prove me wrong.  Which neither you nor anyone else has done.  Instead some of you reply by going after my priest!

You have yet to give an appropriate reason why you can use the term 'papal' in front of any other word but 'Catholic'.  Your own church does it all the time when referencing things relating to the Pope.. Papal Oath, Papal Arbitration, Papal Visit, Papal Mass, Papal Apartments, Papal Election, Papal Decision,  Papal Motorcade,  Papal Encyclical, etc.  Need I go on?   But papal Catholic is a no no?  WHY

If we are restricted from saying anything that  may offend someone then why even have a discussion?  I have yet to hear and apology for the use of the term 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' from any of you.


[Its the truth as YOU understand & know, but  have YOU attained perfection ? Are YOU spiritually perfected ? Are YOU without stain ?]

No.  And neither are you.  If you don't like what I say either debate me or prove me wrong instead of having a temper tantrum!

Orthodoc



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« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2004, 08:00:20 PM »

[Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

If you know then why are you asking me?  But since you asked it was most probably King Sigmund-August II.   


[Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed]

The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia - by * Professor Dimitry Pospielovsky   
   
(*)  Dimitry Pospielovsky is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Western Ontario.  He is the author of The Russian Church Under The Soviet Regime, 1917-1982v (SVS Press, 1984) and is one of the foremost authorities on Russian Church History.

Page 93

The laity, the parish clergy, and particularly the brotherhoods refused to accept the union with Rome. The protest movement developed and spread quickly, joined at first by a single bishop, Gideon (Bolodan) of Lvov. The Polish King gave in to these pressures and authorized the convening of a local council of those bishops, clergy and laity of the Roman and Greek Church who accepted the papacy --i.e. those who did not accept the Unia were not invited.

The Council met in the city of Brest on October 6, 1596. In order to prevent a parallel Orthodox council in any of the numerious Orthodox Churches in the city, the now Uniate Metropolitan of Kiev sealed all Orthodox Churches on the day before the Council was to begin, except for the cathedral where the Council was to take place. The Orthodox, nevertheless, converged on Brest as well, with prince Ostrozhskii and his private army at the head. Failing to find an open church, and after waiting in vain for an invitation from the Uniates, they accepted an offer of a Protestant church school for a separate Orthodox Council. The Uniate Council passed a resolution excommunicating all the Orthodox clergy and laity participating in the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox in turn suspended all the clergy and lay participants in the Uniate Council and addressed a petition to the King, asking him to deprive "the traitors" of their dioceses and parishes. But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

Page 96

The Polish government could ill afford continuous persecutions of the Orthodox. A war with Turkey loomed on the horizon, and in 1621 the Cossacks presented an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all persecutions of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks.  In response, the 1623 Sejm declared toleration of the Orthodox Church and permitted the legitimization of Orthodox bishops and the restoration of their dioceses.

========

But the joy of the Orthodox was short-lived.  The legalization of the Orthodox Church resulted in mass return to Orthodoxy especially in Eastern Belorussia.  This resulted in mass attacks on Orthodox households  and Churches led by bishop Josaphat (Kuntsevish).  The citizens revolted which resulted in Josaphat's death.  

Roman Catholic revenge was immediate and brutal.  All Orthodox Churches were once again confiscated or closed.  Everywhere in the commonwealth the Orthodox lost the right not only to build but to  repair churches; Pope Urban VII proclaimed that any Roman Catholic who dared to oppose the use of the sword against the Orthodox would be excommunicated.

=======

Now, since we have gotten way of he original subject of this thread as well as the 'papal Catholic' issue, if you want to continue this open up a new thread.

Orthodoc




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« Reply #89 on: November 04, 2004, 08:12:02 PM »

I guess the Lord missed a few when He granted common sense & manners.

Indeed this is a forum which allows & relishes the bashing of others by its Orthodox members, wondered why membership is shrinking.

Fair & balanced, highly unlikely.


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